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Author Topic: [2014-06-16] GHASH.IO statement about the 51 % problem  (Read 3340 times)
notthematrix
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June 18, 2014, 08:13:59 PM
 #41

You are going a long way round in circles to avoid answering this question:

Quote
And you don't think that [double-spend attack against BetCoin] makes GHash dishonest?


its very simple a ,miner can NEVER do 7 blocks in a row.
see rule 13 http://btc-base.blogspot.sk/2014/01/bitcoin-transactions-why-it-is.html
7 blocks is the inital transactions + 6 confirmations
at best ghash.io can do the double spend + 5 confirmations  ... the 6thx (block 7) has to be done by somone else.
if thats not done the transaction will fial back to zero!
so its that simple , one miner can max do 6 blocks in a row , thats 5 confirmations , and thats why you need at least 6 confirmations (7 blocks) to be save because the 7th block can never be done by the same miner. , its so very simple Smiley
so you can never double spend , bacause you can never make more then 6 blocks in a row , so you NEVER get a double spend with 6 confirmations.
its even stupid to hash the 7th block , because it will not be accepted by the chain , this wasting mining power.
so its even stuped to join a to big pool Smiley


Do you think that [double-spend attack against BetCoin] makes GHash dishonest?


Iits dumb of betcoin to accept transactions of les then 6 confirmation
, honisty does not exsits in the financhial world that's why we have a system as bitcoin
to rule out human temptation by code ruling.
Wolfs of wallstreet anyone? Smiley


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murraypaul
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June 18, 2014, 08:17:51 PM
Last edit: June 18, 2014, 09:13:06 PM by murraypaul
 #42

its very simple a ,miner can NEVER do 7 blocks in a row.
see rule 13 http://btc-base.blogspot.sk/2014/01/bitcoin-transactions-why-it-is.html

That doesn't say anything about a single miner producing 7 blocks in a row.
(And nor could it, as each node has no way of knowing which miner actually produced a block, unless the miner chooses to leave evidence behind.)

Edit: GHash mining 8 blocks in a row:
299449: https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000006e96c1dd143e094c6cc70cdb755baa958db83798e89f5fce
299450: https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000000242bc21300cabfa5edaff4eb772ee8f4f0593c8ac23be6a7
299451: https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000f8957a5f3528f604b66eee78c33cfa133c6bcf4a88606e9
299452: https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000006fbaf7f90bb6216cde52b4f15481ec68143375d3f4462c0d
299453: https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000008717b430e96226a0c5e86c47b9c855fb3dc7ae67f911d08b
299454: https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000000458c61f342867e941382b8b574d35e35681604b9e4f51410
299455: https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000005f8ab9e7903ce23d134faa8216eeadca61b5418fd7a35669
299456: https://blockchain.info/block/000000000000000079b7bd02a69c6500df396ba5c144cbb9add0bd50fb4f36de
299457: https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000284638a2dcb6f44bcfad55eaa56c97b4594132bb6bc82c9

What I think you mean to claim is that you can't reorganise the chain by more than 6 blocks.

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murraypaul
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June 18, 2014, 08:18:41 PM
 #43

Do you think that [double-spend attack against BetCoin] makes GHash dishonest?

Iits dumb of betcoin to accept transactions of les then 6 confirmation
, honisty does not exsits in the financhial world that's why we have a system as bitcoin
to rule out human temptation by code ruling.
Wolfs of wallstreet anyone? Smiley

You really can't answer the question, can you?
No point continuing the discussion then.

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MrTeal
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June 18, 2014, 10:49:15 PM
 #44

its very simple a ,miner can NEVER do 7 blocks in a row.
see rule 13 http://btc-base.blogspot.sk/2014/01/bitcoin-transactions-why-it-is.html

That doesn't say anything about a single miner producing 7 blocks in a row.
(And nor could it, as each node has no way of knowing which miner actually produced a block, unless the miner chooses to leave evidence behind.)

Edit: GHash mining 8 blocks in a row:
299449: https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000006e96c1dd143e094c6cc70cdb755baa958db83798e89f5fce (uK)
299450: https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000000242bc21300cabfa5edaff4eb772ee8f4f0593c8ac23be6a7   (UK)
299451: https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000f8957a5f3528f604b66eee78c33cfa133c6bcf4a88606e9   (UA)
299452: https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000006fbaf7f90bb6216cde52b4f15481ec68143375d3f4462c0d   (UA)
299453: https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000008717b430e96226a0c5e86c47b9c855fb3dc7ae67f911d08b (UK)
299454: https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000000458c61f342867e941382b8b574d35e35681604b9e4f51410 (UK)
299455: https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000005f8ab9e7903ce23d134faa8216eeadca61b5418fd7a35669  (UK)
299456: https://blockchain.info/block/000000000000000079b7bd02a69c6500df396ba5c144cbb9add0bd50fb4f36de  (UA)
299457: https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000284638a2dcb6f44bcfad55eaa56c97b4594132bb6bc82c9 (UA)

What I think you mean to claim is that you can't reorganise the chain by more than 6 blocks.


CHECK THE IP ADRESS were the block is geiven from!

This is NOT 8 blocks in a row! , its 2 blocks , then again 2 blocks , then 3 blocks , followed by 2 blocks!!!!!



Rule  13. Reject [a block] if timestamp is the median time of the last 11 blocks or before

This can be interpreted in a following way: If the attacker will try to mine his own private blockchain fork, other nodes will almost certainly reject it, if his length is more than 6 blocks, since the timestamp of the first such mined block will be almost certainly older than the median time of the last 11 mined blocks. Replacing 6 or less blocks is possible, but when attacker tries to replace 7 or more blocks, the first one will be too old to be accepted.

TL;DR: Six bitcoin confirmations is not an arbitrary number. If payee accepts a transaction with less than six confirmations, it is possible that the attacker, even without a majority of the hashpower, can launch a brute force attack by mining his private blockchain fork and reverse the transaction. With six or more confirmations, such an attack will be rejected by the Protocol rule 13 described above.

Note for programmers: The check is implemented in the method GetMedianTimePast() and called in method AcceptBlock(), file main.cpp:

bool CBlock::AcceptBlock(CValidationState &state, CDiskBlockPos *dbp)
{
...
        // Check timestamp against prev
        if (GetBlockTime() <= pindexPrev->GetMedianTimePast())
            return state.Invalid(error("AcceptBlock() : block's timestamp is too early"));

you have 2 indipendent pools of ghash.io spreading capasity over 2 parts of the world.
a mining pool in the UK and one in UA.



What are you talking about? That rule has nothing to do with IPs, in fact there is nothing in the block itself about IPs. The IP listed by blockchain (if there is one) has nothing to do with the node that actually mined the block, it's just the IP of the node that first relayed the block to blockchain.info.

notthematrix
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June 19, 2014, 12:05:18 AM
 #45



Quote

What are you talking about? That rule has nothing to do with IPs, in fact there is nothing in the block itself about IPs. The IP listed by blockchain (if there is one) has nothing to do with the node that actually mined the block, it's just the IP of the node that first relayed the block to blockchain.info.



youre right ip does not matter , was also wondering why it exepted 8 blocks bit the check is median time.

rule 13 is about Median time.... thats a hard concept.

block  #299457 2014-05-06 23:25:38
----
block  #299456 2014-05-06 23:02:13
block  #299455 2014-05-06 22:54:57
block  #299454 2014-05-06 22:51:31
block  #299453 2014-05-06 22:50:08
---
block  #299252 2014-05-06 22:37:53
---
block  #299251 2014-05-06 22:27:03
block  #299250 2014-05-06 22:21:21
block  #299249 2014-05-06 22:17:07

This means that you can NOT create more then 6 blocks in a row less then 10 minutes apart ,

Rule  13. Reject [a block] if timestamp is the median time of the last 11 blocks or before

This can be interpreted in a following way: If the attacker will try to mine his own private blockchain fork, other nodes will almost certainly reject it, if his length is more than 6 blocks, since the timestamp of the first such mined block will be almost certainly older than the median time of the last 11 mined blocks. Replacing 6 or less blocks is possible, but when attacker tries to replace 7 or more blocks, the first one will be too old to be accepted.

TL;DR: Six bitcoin confirmations is not an arbitrary number. If payee accepts a transaction with less than six confirmations, it is possible that the attacker, even without a majority of the hashpower, can launch a brute force attack by mining his private blockchain fork and reverse the transaction. With six or more confirmations, such an attack will be rejected by the Protocol rule 13 described above.

Note for programmers: The check is implemented in the method GetMedianTimePast() and called in method AcceptBlock(), file main.cpp:

bool CBlock::AcceptBlock(CValidationState &state, CDiskBlockPos *dbp)
{
...
        // Check timestamp against prev
        if (GetBlockTime() <= pindexPrev->GetMedianTimePast())
            return state.Invalid(error("AcceptBlock() : block's timestamp is too early"));
 
 
If ghash.io does make a separate chain form the original chain , it needs to devote all its hashing power to the fake chain . and CAN NOT know when the next transaction will come.
so making a plasible fake chain at the same time is very hard if not imposible.
becaue you have to know when transactions are comming at forehand.





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June 19, 2014, 12:05:45 AM
 #46

Do you think that [double-spend attack against BetCoin] makes GHash dishonest?

Iits dumb of betcoin to accept transactions of les then 6 confirmation
, honisty does not exsits in the financhial world that's why we have a system as bitcoin
to rule out human temptation by code ruling.
Wolfs of wallstreet anyone? Smiley

You really can't answer the question, can you?
No point continuing the discussion then.

I can answer that for you. Yes, anything that goes against the principles of a trust-less system makes GHash.IO dishonest, including their double spend attack.

Everybody, let's just think this one over for a second. In a system that is supposed to require absolutely no trust between any parties, why is GHash.IO saying we should trust them? This goes against everything that defines the very idea behind bitcoin, and they will pay for it.

Bitcoin does not have to destroy banks, it does not need to be completely free of fees and taxes, but bitcoin must, absolutely must rip the financial control from the wealthy elites cold dead hands so that we never have to "trust" any authority figure when it comes to monetary policy or cryptocurrency. If it can't do that, then we should just give up right now because everything else is pointless.
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June 19, 2014, 12:23:52 AM
 #47

Do you think that [double-spend attack against BetCoin] makes GHash dishonest?

Iits dumb of betcoin to accept transactions of les then 6 confirmation
, honisty does not exsits in the financhial world that's why we have a system as bitcoin
to rule out human temptation by code ruling.
Wolfs of wallstreet anyone? Smiley

You really can't answer the question, can you?
No point continuing the discussion then.

I can answer that for you. Yes, anything that goes against the principles of a trust-less system makes GHash.IO dishonest, including their double spend attack.

Everybody, let's just think this one over for a second. In a system that is supposed to require absolutely no trust between any parties, why is GHash.IO saying we should trust them? This goes against everything that defines the very idea behind bitcoin, and they will pay for it.

Bitcoin does not have to destroy banks, it does not need to be completely free of fees and taxes, but bitcoin must, absolutely must rip the financial control from the wealthy elites cold dead hands so that we never have to "trust" any authority figure when it comes to monetary policy or cryptocurrency. If it can't do that, then we should just give up right now because everything else is pointless.

Was the double spend sucsessfull? if detected as double spend it was clearly not Smiley
attemting one is wrong but it failed because of the way bitcoin is setup.

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June 19, 2014, 02:16:55 AM
 #48


Let's have some FUD vs. FACT now.

FUD: Double-spends: GHash actually engaged in such an attack before it reached the 51% mark, and it could do so again

FACT: Ghash.io has never committed double spending against a CONFIRMED transaction. Apparently at one time Ghash.io had committed fraud against an online gambling site by performing a Finney attack to cancel their non-winning bet transactions. This was possible because the casino recognized payment on 0/unconfirmed transactions -- something that NOBODY would recommend a merchant do for an anonymous, online service.

So you've just agreed that they did engage in a double-spend attack? Not really FUD then, is it?
But it is ok because they only attacked stupid people?

Not quite.
(snip unrelated information)

Quite. You've just said that they did perform a double spend attack.

If it is detected as a double spend in blackchain.info it was not sucsessfull , I explained how hard it is to realy do it , when sticking to 6 confirmations , Further more if ghash.io was realy bad people would have droped it by know or at leased miners would have stoped accepting mined blocks from them Smiley
So this is why i dont worry , if one miner act bad other can stop acccepting blocks from that miner , so acting bad is in nobody's intrest.
also the median time rule makes it almost imposible to act bad because you need to know the time when feature transaction will come . mutiple times in a row.
I incurage evrybody to try to hack and play with the bitcoin protocol! . and emulate all senarios Smiley


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June 19, 2014, 02:26:48 AM
 #49



If it is detected as a double spend in blackchain.info it was not sucsessfull , I explained how hard it is to realy do it , when sticking to 6 confirmations , Further more if ghash.io was realy bad people would have droped it by know or at leased miners would have stoped accepting mined blocks from them Smiley
So this is why i dont worry , if one miner act bad other can stop acccepting blocks from that miner , so acting bad is in nobody's interest.


FUD: Surely nobody in a large bank or credit agency would ever try to infiltrate the Bitcoin Foundation or GHash.IO and arrange a meeting to make plans for the new Central Banker-Miners to take over and rule the world for their bosses. Yep, you are right. We should just leave 50% of the hashing power in one pool so somebody can come in and use it to permanently damage the trust in bitcoin enough to possibly damn it forever. Sounds legit.

FACT: An alarming amount of CEOs and other top executives have been infiltrating many bitcoin businesses and organizations. The ease with which you suggest that they would never have the power to take down the network this way is also alarming. Leaving all that hashpower in one location is a 100% sure sign that somebody will attempt to abuse it in order to kill bitcoin for real.

Decentralization in every possible way! This is very simple stuff to figure out, and no amount of hand-waving and fancy whitepaper posts will ever change anything about that.
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June 19, 2014, 03:04:51 AM
 #50

So what GHASH.is is saying is that they enjoy havin 51 % and that they don't give a fuck about centralisation ? Thats a very nice statement wraped up, you could use different words but then it would be much more obvious that you don't even care about it.

Bitcoin is DEAD
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June 19, 2014, 04:59:06 AM
 #51

What's that old saying?

Oh yeah:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."  -Lord Acton

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June 19, 2014, 08:03:46 AM
 #52

This means that you can NOT create more then 6 blocks in a row less then 10 minutes apart ,

Nope, that's not it either. It means that if you want to replace the block chain you either can't use too much time, or you have to set the time stamp into the future to give yourself some extra time. "Fortunately" for ghash.io they control a lot of the miners in their pool, which gives them a better probability.
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June 19, 2014, 08:46:43 AM
 #53

Was the double spend sucsessfull? if detected as double spend it was clearly not Smiley
attemting one is wrong but it failed because of the way bitcoin is setup.

Yes, they were successful, they confirmed the second transaction, thus cancelling the first. That is what a double-spend is.
This meant that they kept their winning bet transactions and revoked their losing bet transactions.

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June 19, 2014, 10:10:49 AM
 #54

What's that old saying?

Oh yeah:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."  -Lord Acton

This times a million is the one and only core value that is driving bitcoin and the only real thing of value that bitcoin has to offer. Realistically, I could wire somebody in Antarctica money in a few minutes using the bank. I can buy anything anywhere with banks cards, and most people don't even think about the fees they might save doing otherwise. Many of the everyday uses for bitcoin seem pointless right now. But it isn't really about that.

What makes bitcoin worth fighting for so much is the technology behind it that removes the centralization of power in the economic system and creates a worldwide network where all users have the same rights and privileges. It is about removing all possible corruption from banking, wall street, government, credit agencies, and the individual citizen as well. It is about being able to buy penny stocks of a farm in Africa when you live in Argentina. It is about traveling the entire world and never having to submit to the local currency restrictions. It is about not having the money in your pocket stolen from you by an invisible hand.

Bitcoin is about fairness. The more fair we can be, the better we can work towards the future. Without cryptocurrency, the world is doomed. I wish I could be joking right now.
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June 19, 2014, 10:44:56 AM
 #55

This means that you can NOT create more then 6 blocks in a row less then 10 minutes apart ,

Nope, that's not it either. It means that if you want to replace the block chain you either can't use too much time, or you have to set the time stamp into the future to give yourself some extra time. "Fortunately" for ghash.io they control a lot of the miners in their pool, which gives them a better probability.

Does not mean the can do it all the tme , yes we need to watch big pools , but no we dont need to get parabnoia about it other pools can refuse blocks of ghash.io because they make to many blocks.
So for ghash.io it is NOT in its intrest to build a big pool , because you waste mining capasaty becasue other miners will not accept the blocks.
and remenber there is a mutch BIGGER problem , with our economy , its called the imposible hamster ,
Resources VS endless growing bitcoin by it nature can solve this puzzle , so can save hamanity!
so don't underastimate the incentive to make this work!

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June 19, 2014, 06:33:42 PM
 #56

This means that you can NOT create more then 6 blocks in a row less then 10 minutes apart ,

Nope, that's not it either. It means that if you want to replace the block chain you either can't use too much time, or you have to set the time stamp into the future to give yourself some extra time. "Fortunately" for ghash.io they control a lot of the miners in their pool, which gives them a better probability.

Does not mean the can do it all the tme , yes we need to watch big pools , but no we dont need to get parabnoia about it other pools can refuse blocks of ghash.io because they make to many blocks.
So for ghash.io it is NOT in its intrest to build a big pool , because you waste mining capasaty becasue other miners will not accept the blocks.
and remenber there is a mutch BIGGER problem , with our economy , its called the imposible hamster ,
Resources VS endless growing bitcoin by it nature can solve this puzzle , so can save hamanity!
so don't underastimate the incentive to make this work!


It is amazing how you Ghash.IO "supporters" keep mentioning how it is in their best interest to not tamper with the blockchain. YOU ARE COMPLETELY IGNORING THE FACT THAT THE MOST POWERFUL GROUPS IN THE WORLD WOULD LOVE TO INFILTRATE GHASH.IO AND TO SEE BITCOIN DEAD!

Why can't at least one of you shillbots own up to the fact that absolutely no trust at all should ever be put into any exchange, pool, or entity of any kind? THEY CAN ALL BE INFILTRATED EASILY!

All of you are making Ghash.io look like shit right now. Thanks!

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June 19, 2014, 11:47:07 PM
 #57

This means that you can NOT create more then 6 blocks in a row less then 10 minutes apart ,

Nope, that's not it either. It means that if you want to replace the block chain you either can't use too much time, or you have to set the time stamp into the future to give yourself some extra time. "Fortunately" for ghash.io they control a lot of the miners in their pool, which gives them a better probability.

Does not mean the can do it all the tme , yes we need to watch big pools , but no we dont need to get parabnoia about it other pools can refuse blocks of ghash.io because they make to many blocks.
So for ghash.io it is NOT in its intrest to build a big pool , because you waste mining capasaty becasue other miners will not accept the blocks.
and remenber there is a mutch BIGGER problem , with our economy , its called the imposible hamster ,
Resources VS endless growing bitcoin by it nature can solve this puzzle , so can save hamanity!
so don't underastimate the incentive to make this work!


It is amazing how you Ghash.IO "supporters" keep mentioning how it is in their best interest to not tamper with the blockchain. YOU ARE COMPLETELY IGNORING THE FACT THAT THE MOST POWERFUL GROUPS IN THE WORLD WOULD LOVE TO INFILTRATE GHASH.IO AND TO SEE BITCOIN DEAD!

Why can't at least one of you shillbots own up to the fact that absolutely no trust at all should ever be put into any exchange, pool, or entity of any kind? THEY CAN ALL BE INFILTRATED EASILY!

All of you are making Ghash.io look like shit right now. Thanks!



all FEAR is INSIDE YOU HEAD.... we dont give a F*CK , if ghash.io misbehaves it will lose its good name . and will be replaced by someone else we are noet DEPENEDENT obn ghash.io nor do they own all mining hardware its custumers  use Smiley
so do executing your fear , is suicide for ghash.io , they can do it but wont get them very far!

so my questing is why dont you go to a shopping mall and kill some people?
you CAN do it nobody will stop you from doing it if you want to do it.
so why don't you?
Exectly You will likely sucseed but the what happens after you did it what are the  consequences?
and that's why sane people don't kill.
Ghash.io can not get away with it consequences  it  lose its business to other miner gulde's!
We are not dependent on them.
That's why most people don't care , they know this unless you suffer from  paranoid schizophrenia bacause then your brain can now longer make this differentiation anymore! Smiley


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CoinMode
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June 20, 2014, 01:39:52 AM
 #58


all FEAR is INSIDE YOU HEAD.... we dont give a F*CK , if ghash.io misbehaves it will lose its good name . and will be replaced by someone else we are noet DEPENEDENT obn ghash.io nor do they own all mining hardware its custumers  use Smiley
so do executing your fear , is suicide for ghash.io , they can do it but wont get them very far!

so my questing is why dont you go to a shopping mall and kill some people?
you CAN do it nobody will stop you from doing it if you want to do it.
so why don't you?
Exectly You will likely sucseed but the what happens after you did it what are the  consequences?
and that's why sane people don't kill.
Ghash.io can not get away with it consequences  it  lose its business to other miner gulde's!
We are not dependent on them.
That's why most people don't care , they know this unless you suffer from  paranoid schizophrenia bacause then your brain can now longer make this differentiation anymore! Smiley



You are just another shill saying "I swear Ghash.IO isn't being infiltrated by banks or credit agencies." We have heard your bullshit argument that conveniently always leaves out this scenario and also leaves 51% of the net hash open for the picking. Go home. Your tactics no longer work here.
murraypaul
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June 20, 2014, 10:41:43 AM
 #59

all FEAR is INSIDE YOU HEAD.... we dont give a F*CK , if ghash.io misbehaves it will lose its good name . and will be replaced by someone else we are noet DEPENEDENT obn ghash.io nor do they own all mining hardware its custumers  use Smiley
so do executing your fear , is suicide for ghash.io , they can do it but wont get them very far!

This is demonstrably false, because they have already misbehaved and yet now they are the largest mining pool.
Most people simply don't care, they just want to maximise their own profits in the short term.

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June 20, 2014, 11:54:46 AM
 #60

all FEAR is INSIDE YOU HEAD.... we dont give a F*CK , if ghash.io misbehaves it will lose its good name . and will be replaced by someone else we are noet DEPENEDENT obn ghash.io nor do they own all mining hardware its custumers  use Smiley
so do executing your fear , is suicide for ghash.io , they can do it but wont get them very far!

This is demonstrably false, because they have already misbehaved and yet now they are the largest mining pool.
Most people simply don't care, they just want to maximise their own profits in the short term.
Its about a few cents and they are detected , with the banks we know ,but we cant do anything but with ghash.io people can its to small , its like you shout to some one in trafic thts bad but not so bad you get in jail , so please shutup , its about a few cents.
 

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