Bitcoin Forum
October 16, 2019, 01:21:25 PM *
News: If you like a topic and you see an orange "bump" link, click it. More info.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: [2014-06-16] GHASH.IO statement about the 51 % problem  (Read 3340 times)
LiteCoinGuy
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001


In Satoshi I Trust


View Profile WWW
June 16, 2014, 06:09:57 PM
 #1

GHASH.IO statement about the 51 % problem

Rapid growth of GHash.IO mining pool, seen over the past few months, has been driven by our determination to offer innovative solutions within the Bitcoin ecosystem combined with significant investment in resource. Our investment, participation and highly motivated staff confirm it is our intention to help protect and grow the broad acceptance of Bitcoin and categorically in no way harm or damage it. We never have and never will participate in any 51% attack or double spend against Bitcoin. Still, we are against temporary solutions, which could repel a 51% threat.

In any market, competition and innovation drives growth and that is particularly true in an emerging and disruptive environment such as Bitcoin. Successful and innovative companies cannot be expected to limit their growth or competitiveness as a direct result of their success. However, this is the situation we find ourselves in when faced with the community perception of the threat of a 51% attack on Bitcoin. Asking our users to not use our services or to use competing solutions is not conducive to fostering innovation. Implementing a pool fee to our pool contradicts principles of our operation from the very launch of GHash.IO. It also does not address the core issue only pushing the problem a few weeks or months down the road when another pool or perhaps GHash.IO again grows towards 51%.

We do fully recognise the concerns and possible threat posed by an entity with malicious intent taking control of enough mining power to exploit the 51% scenario, but we also have confidence and agree with the views expressed by the Bitcoin Foundation that any such exploitation or attack ”would be obvious it was happening, and pretty easy to defend against. The transparent nature of the blockchain provides unprecedented insight for all to investigate and report such behaviours.

We also recognise however that a long term preventative solution to the threat of a 51% attack does have to be found, the current situation we find ourselves in (essentially being punished for our success) is damaging not only to us, but to the growth and acceptance of Bitcoin long term, which is something we are all striving for.

To that effect we are in the process of arranging contact to the leading mining pools and Bitcoin Foundation to propose a ‘round table’ meeting of the key players with the aim of discussing and negotiating collectively ways to address the decentralisation of mining as an industry. Our aim is to do this quickly with a possible date coinciding with the CoinSummit Conference in London.



http://de.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/28aldt/ghashio_is_open_for_discussion/



good start. lets solve this for all times hopefully.

1571232085
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1571232085

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1571232085
Reply with quote  #2

1571232085
Report to moderator
1571232085
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1571232085

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1571232085
Reply with quote  #2

1571232085
Report to moderator
1571232085
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1571232085

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1571232085
Reply with quote  #2

1571232085
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1571232085
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1571232085

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1571232085
Reply with quote  #2

1571232085
Report to moderator
1571232085
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1571232085

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1571232085
Reply with quote  #2

1571232085
Report to moderator
1571232085
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1571232085

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1571232085
Reply with quote  #2

1571232085
Report to moderator
CoinMode
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 417
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 16, 2014, 09:20:50 PM
Last edit: June 16, 2014, 09:39:31 PM by CoinMode
 #2

GHASH.IO statement about the 51 % problem

#1 "Our...staff confirm it is our intention to help protect and grow the broad acceptance of Bitcoin and categorically in no way harm or damage it."

#2 "Successful and innovative companies cannot be expected to limit their growth or competitiveness as a direct result of their success.

#3 "Asking our users to not use our services or to use competing solutions is not conducive to fostering innovation."

#4 "Implementing a pool fee to our pool contradicts principles of our operation from the very launch of GHash.IO."

#5 "It also does not address the core issue only pushing the problem a few weeks or months down the road when another pool or perhaps GHash.IO again grows towards 51%."

#6 "we...agree with the views expressed by the Bitcoin Foundation that any such exploitation or attack would be obvious it was happening, and pretty easy to defend against."

#7 "To that effect we are in the process of arranging contact to the leading mining pools and Bitcoin Foundation to propose a ‘round table’ meeting of the key players with the aim of discussing and negotiating collectively ways to address the decentralisation of mining as an industry."[/i]

1. The staff said they aren't going to do it, so I guess we better just trust them on that, right?

2. Successful companies have been expected to limit their growth on a regular basis in every economy except communism to encourage competition. Apparently GHash.IO staff have never heard of a monopoly before, and a monopoly in the case of bitcoin mining is getting anywhere close, just 33%, to half of the total net hashrate. They have, by the very definition of the word when applied to bitcoin mining, a huge monopoly.

3. Mandating the use of alternatives is what I do every time that I build a new PC. I would rather deal with having a CPU that uses 50W more electricity than deal with $2000 CPU prices once Intel completely takes over the whole market. Sorry, top dog never gets my dollar, ever, for this reason alone.

4. GHash.IO is not being asked to implement a fee. Nobody cares about that at all. They are being asked to reduce their hashrate and they will comply or be shut down one way or another. That is a direct threat, and they would be wise to listen.

5. Asking users to leave the largest pools is actually the most effective method for distributing hashrate. It is a functional program that can never have any bugs and can not be hacked into so long as we can all view the hashrate of each pool. This is a never fail option that will always have some degree of success. It needs to be combined with a forced-distribution penalty for pools exceeding 10% of net hash on a block.

6. We already know the Bitcoin Foundation has been working against many of the principles of bitcoin for the last several months. They served a good purpose and are now obsolete and are infiltrated by former and current board members of the largest banks and credit agencies. GHash.IO making an alliance with BF is just another sign that they are not serving the best interest of bitcoin.

7. GHash.IO is positioning itself in some sort of leadership role at the "secret meeting of the central miners/bankers" in order to determine, without full transparency or decentralized decision-making, what the entire future of bitcoin mining will be for the entire world.


If you can't read between the lines of these evil "central miners/bankers", then you shouldn't be using bitcoin yet. We are still dealing with scammers like GHash.IO who feign ignorance when confronted about the notion that a centralized mining effort in itself is always damaging to bitcoin no matter how much their staff promise that they aren't evil. You've just marked yourself as an enemy of the entire financial future of the world. That's a really easy target to hit, and if I had the 1337 haxxorz skillz then I would permanently shut you down this second.

GHash.IO must be insane if they think we are stupid enough to fall for this bullshit. Do they know who they're fucking with?
erono
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 434
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 17, 2014, 05:52:26 AM
 #3

By the same logic, why other people who also sit on a lot of coins and do nothing, why dont they donate to the devs?

Quantus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 883
Merit: 1004



View Profile
June 17, 2014, 07:54:58 AM
 #4

Just like the Secret Meeting That Launched the Federal Reserve. The consolidation of power is inevitable. Bitcoin is doomed.

(I am a 1MB block supporter who thinks all users should be using Full-Node clients)
Avoid the XT shills, they only want to destroy bitcoin, their hubris and greed will destroy us.
Know your adversary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
Grinder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1284
Merit: 1000


View Profile
June 17, 2014, 08:51:41 AM
 #5

Another question is what happens when the government in what ever country their owners live in orders them to do something that is harmful to bitcoin and keep quiet about it? In the US this is done all the time to ISPs and other internet related companies.
murraypaul
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 17, 2014, 09:38:05 AM
 #6

Rapid growth of GHash.IO mining pool, seen over the past few months, has been driven by our determination to offer innovative solutions within the Bitcoin ecosystem combined with significant investment in resource. Our investment, participation and highly motivated staff confirm it is our intention to help protect and grow the broad acceptance of Bitcoin and categorically in no way harm or damage it. We never have and never will participate in any 51% attack or double spend against Bitcoin.

That is either a downright lie, or a shading of the truth, depending on how kindly you look upon them, and whether you view Cex and GHash as one entity.
Cex have admitted to previously being involved in a double-spend attack.

BTC: 16TgAGdiTSsTWSsBDphebNJCFr1NT78xFW
SRC: scefi1XMhq91n3oF5FrE3HqddVvvCZP9KB
CoinMode
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 417
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 17, 2014, 12:24:50 PM
 #7

Rapid growth of GHash.IO mining pool, seen over the past few months, has been driven by our determination to offer innovative solutions within the Bitcoin ecosystem combined with significant investment in resource. Our investment, participation and highly motivated staff confirm it is our intention to help protect and grow the broad acceptance of Bitcoin and categorically in no way harm or damage it. We never have and never will participate in any 51% attack or double spend against Bitcoin.

That is either a downright lie, or a shading of the truth, depending on how kindly you look upon them, and whether you view Cex and GHash as one entity.
Cex have admitted to previously being involved in a double-spend attack.

Let's not forget the time when GHash.IO was hacked into and sending all of the coins it earned to the hacker's wallet for three days before GHash.IO staff even noticed what was going on. This is not about trusting people or even whether they are trustworthy. This is about the simple fact that centralized power always corrupts, always, and bitcoin is supposed to be a tool of decentralization. GHash.IO is just drunk with power right now, and it will be their downfall, likely something similar to the fireworks during the fall of Mt. Gox will ensue shortly.
CoinMode
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 417
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 17, 2014, 12:33:03 PM
 #8

By the same logic, why other people who also sit on a lot of coins and do nothing, why dont they donate to the devs?

Or even better than that, why don't people who are sitting on huge mountains of coins do something useful with them like invest in or start a bitcoin business? I was a fat lazy sack-of-shit trader for a few months, sitting on thousands of dollars of coins, and then I decided to start a business for cryptocurrency instead. My life has been far more productive and happy ever since then.

You need to redistribute your power and put it to good use or else bitcoin will die. That is a guarantee. Open you eyes and get active, people, the fight for the crypto future has just begun. Be a warrior.
fryarminer
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 658
Merit: 500


View Profile
June 17, 2014, 01:07:49 PM
 #9

GHASH.IO statement about the 51 % problem

#1 "Our...staff confirm it is our intention to help protect and grow the broad acceptance of Bitcoin and categorically in no way harm or damage it."

#2 "Successful and innovative companies cannot be expected to limit their growth or competitiveness as a direct result of their success.

#3 "Asking our users to not use our services or to use competing solutions is not conducive to fostering innovation."

#4 "Implementing a pool fee to our pool contradicts principles of our operation from the very launch of GHash.IO."

#5 "It also does not address the core issue only pushing the problem a few weeks or months down the road when another pool or perhaps GHash.IO again grows towards 51%."

#6 "we...agree with the views expressed by the Bitcoin Foundation that any such exploitation or attack would be obvious it was happening, and pretty easy to defend against."

#7 "To that effect we are in the process of arranging contact to the leading mining pools and Bitcoin Foundation to propose a ‘round table’ meeting of the key players with the aim of discussing and negotiating collectively ways to address the decentralisation of mining as an industry."[/i]

1. The staff said they aren't going to do it, so I guess we better just trust them on that, right?

2. Successful companies have been expected to limit their growth on a regular basis in every economy except communism to encourage competition. Apparently GHash.IO staff have never heard of a monopoly before, and a monopoly in the case of bitcoin mining is getting anywhere close, just 33%, to half of the total net hashrate. They have, by the very definition of the word when applied to bitcoin mining, a huge monopoly.

3. Mandating the use of alternatives is what I do every time that I build a new PC. I would rather deal with having a CPU that uses 50W more electricity than deal with $2000 CPU prices once Intel completely takes over the whole market. Sorry, top dog never gets my dollar, ever, for this reason alone.

4. GHash.IO is not being asked to implement a fee. Nobody cares about that at all. They are being asked to reduce their hashrate and they will comply or be shut down one way or another. That is a direct threat, and they would be wise to listen.

5. Asking users to leave the largest pools is actually the most effective method for distributing hashrate. It is a functional program that can never have any bugs and can not be hacked into so long as we can all view the hashrate of each pool. This is a never fail option that will always have some degree of success. It needs to be combined with a forced-distribution penalty for pools exceeding 10% of net hash on a block.

6. We already know the Bitcoin Foundation has been working against many of the principles of bitcoin for the last several months. They served a good purpose and are now obsolete and are infiltrated by former and current board members of the largest banks and credit agencies. GHash.IO making an alliance with BF is just another sign that they are not serving the best interest of bitcoin.

7. GHash.IO is positioning itself in some sort of leadership role at the "secret meeting of the central miners/bankers" in order to determine, without full transparency or decentralized decision-making, what the entire future of bitcoin mining will be for the entire world.


If you can't read between the lines of these evil "central miners/bankers", then you shouldn't be using bitcoin yet. We are still dealing with scammers like GHash.IO who feign ignorance when confronted about the notion that a centralized mining effort in itself is always damaging to bitcoin no matter how much their staff promise that they aren't evil. You've just marked yourself as an enemy of the entire financial future of the world. That's a really easy target to hit, and if I had the 1337 haxxorz skillz then I would permanently shut you down this second.

GHash.IO must be insane if they think we are stupid enough to fall for this bullshit. Do they know who they're fucking with?

Excellent post. I couldn't agree more.


bryant.coleman
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2240
Merit: 1037


WOLF.BET - Provably Fair Dice Game


View Profile
June 17, 2014, 02:21:06 PM
 #10

Has anyone checked today's hash rate? Seems that GHash has dropped by some 2% points. May be the result of Bitfury pulling out their mining rigs. Anti-GHash guys should be happy.  Grin

.WOLF.BET.
▀  ▀▀▀▀▀▀
  ▀ ▀▀▀
 ▄ ▄▄▄ 
  ▄ ▄▄▄
▄  ▄▄▄▄▄▄
        ▄▄▄▀▀▀▀▄▄▄
    ▄███▌        ▀▀▄
  ▄▀   ▐█████████▄  ▀▄
 ▄▀  ▄█████████████▄  █
 ▌  █████████████████  █
▐  ████████████████ ▄█
█  █████████████████████▌
▐  ██████████████████ ▀█▌
 ▌ ▐█████████████████▌ ▐▀
 █  ██████████████▀ ▄▀
  █   ███████████▀  ▄▀
   ▀▄▄██ ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀  ▄▄▀
     ▀██▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀▀▀
▄███████████▄
███████    ████████████▄
███████    ███████   ▀██
██████████████████    ██
██    ██████████████████
██    ███████    ███████
█████████████    ███████
███████    █████████████
███████    ███████    ██
██████████████████   ▄██
██        ▀███████████▀
██
██
      ▄█▄         ▄█▄
 ▄██ ███ ███████ ███ ██▄
▐███▄ ▀ ▄███████▄ ▀ ▄███▌
▐█▌▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▐█▌
▐█▌   ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄        ▐█▌
▐█▌   ████████        ▐█▌
▐█▌       ███     ▄▄▀▀▀██▄
▐█▌      ███    ██▀      ▀█
▐█▌     ███    ███         █
▐█▌    ███     ███          █
 ██▄           ███▄         █
  ▀█████████████████▄     ▄█
                  ▀▀█████▀▀

████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
████


.AFFILIATE PROGRAM.
   ...FREE FAUCET........
..CHAT RAIN.............
CoinMode
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 417
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 17, 2014, 11:07:56 PM
 #11

Has anyone checked today's hash rate? Seems that GHash has dropped by some 2% points. May be the result of Bitfury pulling out their mining rigs. Anti-GHash guys should be happy.  Grin

It is the 1.5PH that Bitfury pulled out that resulted in that drop. This whole debacle has clearly shown us who is and is not working with the credit agencies who have infiltrated the Bitcoin Foundation and are doing everything they can to try and control the whole network. If they win, they rule the world. If we win, they will be forced to play fair.

You should support this Kickstarter project. It has tons of great interviews with the best of the best in bitcoiners. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bitcointheendofmoney/bitcoin-the-end-of-money-as-we-know-it
notthematrix
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 963
Merit: 1000


The All-in-One Cryptocurrency Exchange


View Profile
June 18, 2014, 02:39:14 AM
 #12


Let's have some FUD vs. FACT now.

------------------

FUD: Double-spends: GHash actually engaged in such an attack before it reached the 51% mark, and it could do so again

FACT: Ghash.io has never committed double spending against a CONFIRMED transaction. Apparently at one time Ghash.io had committed fraud against an online gambling site by performing a Finney attack to cancel their non-winning bet transactions. This was possible because the casino recognized payment on 0/unconfirmed transactions -- something that NOBODY would recommend a merchant do for an anonymous, online service.

---------------

FUD: Mining power =50%: Double-spends against 6-confirmed transactions are certain to succeed.

FACT: A pool does not have its own hashing capacity, it instead has suppliers -- those individual and corporate miners performing the pool's mining work. A pool that is doing evil will in time lose hashing capacity as those mining there discover that the pool is harming Bitcoin and take their hashing capacity elsewhere. For a pool to try to do a 51% attack for the purpose of double spending a transaction with confirmations 6-deep means that pool would need to take the hashing capacity offline and use it to start mining a private fork. Additionally, no subsequent blocks mined on the public Bitcoin network (while the attack is occurring) would be solved by the ghash.io pool. If ghash.io's 45,000 Th/s were to go offline, that would be bad. If at the same time no blocks over the next couple hours were ghash.io's, that would be a "network event" that would indicate quite possibly that a pool is attempting a 51% attack. There are a couple hours then, at least, before this attack could be successful at reaching the six confirmations needed (as, with only 51% of the hashing capacity but the same difficulty, blocks on the private fork get solved at about one block every twenty minutes). Miners, alerted to a potential 51% attack, could start pulling their hashing capacity from the pool causing it to drop below 51% before the private fork has reached six confirmations -- thus causing the attack to fail. i.e., An attempt at double spending by the pool is not certain to succeed. The pool would be taking a gamble that it can pull off such an attack before that activity is detected or that the response by its suppliers after detection would be too little, too late.

---------------

Now if you have a 51% attack performed not by a pool but by an attacker with its own resources, then many of your points are valid. What that attacker would need to do is simply procure access to about $200M worth of SHA-2 ASIC hardware. Unfortunately for you in making your point -- that amount of hashing capacity likely exceeds the capacity of all the Bitcoin mining ASIC manufacturers, combined, today.





Bitcoin transactions: Why it is recommended to wait for at least six confirmations?

Due to its decentralized nature, bitcoin can’t rely on a master authoritative source to prevent double-spending, when an attacker tries to spend some money more than once. Anyway, various defensive strategies have been implemented to minimize chances for such a fraudulent activity to happen in the bitcoin network.

One particular approach, described by the Bitcoin Wiki as a Brute force attack, can be attempted by an attacker with relatively high mining hashrate, but not necessarily above 50% level. The attack would follow this pattern:

1. The attacker submits a transaction to the network which pays the merchant.

2. At the same time, he will immediately start to privately mine his own blocks, where he will include the double-spending transaction instead of the one where he pays the merchant. But if he manages to find a new block, he will not broadcast it to the network.

3. The merchant will wait for 6 confirmations and then sends the product. But if the attacker managed to mine more than 6 blocks at this time, he can release his own private fork to the network, and since he has the longest chain, other nodes would accept it and the original transaction will get rejected. This way, the attacker gets both the merchant product and also his bitcoins back.

It might seem that such an attack is statistically unlikely to happen, but when we suppose, that the attacker possess for example 25% of the network hashpower, the probability that he will mine 7 blocks in a row is 0.25^7 = 0.006%. This looks like a very small probability, but with block time being 10 minutes, mining 7 block in a row will happen approximately once per four months.
Fortunately, there is another measure implemented in the Bitcoin protocol, which eliminates the possibility of such an attack. In the Protocol rules description at Bitcoin wiki, it is listed as a Rule 13 for “block” messages:

13. Reject if timestamp is the median time of the last 11 blocks or before

This can be interpreted in a following way: If the attacker will try to mine his own private blockchain fork, other nodes will almost certainly reject it, if his length is more than 6 blocks, since the timestamp of the first such mined block will be almost certainly older than the median time of the last 11 mined blocks. Replacing 6 or less blocks is possible, but when attacker tries to replace 7 or more blocks, the first one will be too old to be accepted.

TL;DR: Six bitcoin confirmations is not an arbitrary number. If payee accepts a transaction with less than six confirmations, it is possible that the attacker, even without a majority of the hashpower, can launch a brute force attack by mining his private blockchain fork and reverse the transaction. With six or more confirmations, such an attack will be rejected by the Protocol rule 13 described above.


Note for programmers: The check is implemented in the method GetMedianTimePast() and called in method AcceptBlock(), file main.cpp:

bool CBlock::AcceptBlock(CValidationState &state, CDiskBlockPos *dbp)
{
...
// Check timestamp against prev
if (GetBlockTime() GetMedianTimePast())
return state.Invalid(error("AcceptBlock() : block's timestamp is too early"));

...
}


http://btc-base.blogspot.sk/2014/01/bitcoin-transactions-why-it-is.html


██████
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
                ▄███
              ▄███▌ █
             ▀▀▀██▄  █
           ▄███▄▄ ▀▀▀█
          █ █████▀▀▀▄▄
         ▄██ ███▄    █
        ▐███▀   ▀█   █
        ████     █   █
       ▄██▀▄█▄▄▄█▀   █
       ▀▄▄███▌      █
   ▄▄▄▀▀▀████       █
 ▄▀    ██ ██       █
▐▌     ██▌▐▌      ▀▄
█      ██ █         ▀▄
█      █▀▄▌          █
█   ▄▀█▄██           █
█ ▄▀      ▀▀▄▄▀▄     █
▀▀             █    █
               █  ▄▀
               ▀▄█
     ▀█████████████▄▄
  ▀ ▀▀▀███████████████▌
   ▀ ▀▀▀▀██▀▀▀▀▀▀██████         ▄███████▄      ▄▄███████▄    ▄███▄    ▄███▄ ▄███▄      ▄███▄
▀ ▀▀▀▀█████▄▄▄▄▄▄█████▌       ▄████▀▀▀████▄   ▐████▀▀█████   ▀████▄  ▄████▀ █████▄    ▄█████
    ▀▀███████████████▀       █████     ████▌          ████▌    ▀████████▀    █████▄  ▄█████▌
   ▀ ▀████████████████▀ ▀    ██████████████▌   ▄▄██████████     ▄██████▄      █████▄▄█████▌
     ██████      ██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ ▀ █████▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀    █████▀▀▀█████    ▄████████▄      ██████████▌
     ██████▄▄▄▄▄▄██████▄ ▄    ████▄▄   ▄▄█▄   ████▄  ▄█████  ▄█████▀▀█████▄     ████████▌
     █████████████████▀        ▀███████████   ▀████████████  ████▀    ▀████      ██████▌
     ██████████████▀▀             ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀       ▀▀▀▀▀▀ ▀▀▀    ▀▀        ▀▀        █████
                                                                                ▄█████
                                                                            ▄███████▀
                                                                            ▀████▀▀
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
██████
|█████████████████
███████████████████
█████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
  WHITEPAPER 
  LIGHTPAPER...
|Instant Deposit
✓ 24/7 Support
Referral Program
bryant.coleman
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2240
Merit: 1037


WOLF.BET - Provably Fair Dice Game


View Profile
June 18, 2014, 05:38:34 AM
 #13

Know what, the best solution to this problem would be to ask the smaller pools to reduce their fees to 0%, at least until GHash clocks below 40%. But is it too much to ask for? If Ghash can function without any fees, then why cant BTCGuild and Discus Fish do the same?

.WOLF.BET.
▀  ▀▀▀▀▀▀
  ▀ ▀▀▀
 ▄ ▄▄▄ 
  ▄ ▄▄▄
▄  ▄▄▄▄▄▄
        ▄▄▄▀▀▀▀▄▄▄
    ▄███▌        ▀▀▄
  ▄▀   ▐█████████▄  ▀▄
 ▄▀  ▄█████████████▄  █
 ▌  █████████████████  █
▐  ████████████████ ▄█
█  █████████████████████▌
▐  ██████████████████ ▀█▌
 ▌ ▐█████████████████▌ ▐▀
 █  ██████████████▀ ▄▀
  █   ███████████▀  ▄▀
   ▀▄▄██ ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀  ▄▄▀
     ▀██▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀▀▀
▄███████████▄
███████    ████████████▄
███████    ███████   ▀██
██████████████████    ██
██    ██████████████████
██    ███████    ███████
█████████████    ███████
███████    █████████████
███████    ███████    ██
██████████████████   ▄██
██        ▀███████████▀
██
██
      ▄█▄         ▄█▄
 ▄██ ███ ███████ ███ ██▄
▐███▄ ▀ ▄███████▄ ▀ ▄███▌
▐█▌▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▐█▌
▐█▌   ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄        ▐█▌
▐█▌   ████████        ▐█▌
▐█▌       ███     ▄▄▀▀▀██▄
▐█▌      ███    ██▀      ▀█
▐█▌     ███    ███         █
▐█▌    ███     ███          █
 ██▄           ███▄         █
  ▀█████████████████▄     ▄█
                  ▀▀█████▀▀

████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
████


.AFFILIATE PROGRAM.
   ...FREE FAUCET........
..CHAT RAIN.............
Grinder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1284
Merit: 1000


View Profile
June 18, 2014, 06:52:01 AM
 #14

FACT: Ghash.io has never committed double spending against a CONFIRMED transaction. Apparently at one time Ghash.io had committed fraud against an online gambling site by performing a Finney attack to cancel their non-winning bet transactions. This was possible because the casino recognized payment on 0/unconfirmed transactions -- something that NOBODY would recommend a merchant do for an anonymous, online service.

How can we be sure they're following the same rules for when it's ok to commit fraud as you? Mine are that it's never ok, but I'm painfully aware that not everybody follows my rules.
notthematrix
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 963
Merit: 1000


The All-in-One Cryptocurrency Exchange


View Profile
June 18, 2014, 07:53:07 AM
 #15

FACT: Ghash.io has never committed double spending against a CONFIRMED transaction. Apparently at one time Ghash.io had committed fraud against an online gambling site by performing a Finney attack to cancel their non-winning bet transactions. This was possible because the casino recognized payment on 0/unconfirmed transactions -- something that NOBODY would recommend a merchant do for an anonymous, online service.

How can we be sure they're following the same rules for when it's ok to commit fraud as you? Mine are that it's never ok, but I'm painfully aware that not everybody follows my rules.

Everybody will notice the mining of a private fork!!!!

FACT: A pool does not have its own hashing capacity, it instead has suppliers -- those individual and corporate miners performing the pool's mining work. A pool that is doing evil will in time lose hashing capacity as those mining there discover that the pool is harming Bitcoin and take their hashing capacity elsewhere. For a pool to try to do a 51% attack for the purpose of double spending a transaction with confirmations 6-deep means that pool would need to take the hashing capacity offline and use it to start mining a private fork. Additionally, no subsequent blocks mined on the public Bitcoin network (while the attack is occurring) would be solved by the ghash.io pool. If ghash.io's 45,000 Th/s were to go offline, that would be bad. If at the same time no blocks over the next couple hours were ghash.io's, that would be a "network event" that would indicate quite possibly that a pool is attempting a 51% attack. There are a couple hours then, at least, before this attack could be successful at reaching the six confirmations needed (as, with only 51% of the hashing capacity but the same difficulty, blocks on the private fork get solved at about one block every twenty minutes). Miners, alerted to a potential 51% attack, could start pulling their hashing capacity from the pool causing it to drop below 51% before the private fork has reached six confirmations -- thus causing the attack to fail. i.e., An attempt at double spending by the pool is not certain to succeed. The pool would be taking a gamble that it can pull off such an attack before that activity is detected or that the response by its suppliers after detection would be too little, too late.

---------------

Now if you have a 51% attack performed not by a pool but by an attacker with its own resources, then many of your points are valid. What that attacker would need to do is simply procure access to about $200M worth of SHA-2 ASIC hardware. Unfortunately for you in making your point -- that amount of hashing capacity likely exceeds the capacity of all the Bitcoin mining ASIC manufacturers, combined, today.

██████
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
                ▄███
              ▄███▌ █
             ▀▀▀██▄  █
           ▄███▄▄ ▀▀▀█
          █ █████▀▀▀▄▄
         ▄██ ███▄    █
        ▐███▀   ▀█   █
        ████     █   █
       ▄██▀▄█▄▄▄█▀   █
       ▀▄▄███▌      █
   ▄▄▄▀▀▀████       █
 ▄▀    ██ ██       █
▐▌     ██▌▐▌      ▀▄
█      ██ █         ▀▄
█      █▀▄▌          █
█   ▄▀█▄██           █
█ ▄▀      ▀▀▄▄▀▄     █
▀▀             █    █
               █  ▄▀
               ▀▄█
     ▀█████████████▄▄
  ▀ ▀▀▀███████████████▌
   ▀ ▀▀▀▀██▀▀▀▀▀▀██████         ▄███████▄      ▄▄███████▄    ▄███▄    ▄███▄ ▄███▄      ▄███▄
▀ ▀▀▀▀█████▄▄▄▄▄▄█████▌       ▄████▀▀▀████▄   ▐████▀▀█████   ▀████▄  ▄████▀ █████▄    ▄█████
    ▀▀███████████████▀       █████     ████▌          ████▌    ▀████████▀    █████▄  ▄█████▌
   ▀ ▀████████████████▀ ▀    ██████████████▌   ▄▄██████████     ▄██████▄      █████▄▄█████▌
     ██████      ██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ ▀ █████▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀    █████▀▀▀█████    ▄████████▄      ██████████▌
     ██████▄▄▄▄▄▄██████▄ ▄    ████▄▄   ▄▄█▄   ████▄  ▄█████  ▄█████▀▀█████▄     ████████▌
     █████████████████▀        ▀███████████   ▀████████████  ████▀    ▀████      ██████▌
     ██████████████▀▀             ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀       ▀▀▀▀▀▀ ▀▀▀    ▀▀        ▀▀        █████
                                                                                ▄█████
                                                                            ▄███████▀
                                                                            ▀████▀▀
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
██████
|█████████████████
███████████████████
█████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
  WHITEPAPER 
  LIGHTPAPER...
|Instant Deposit
✓ 24/7 Support
Referral Program
Grinder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1284
Merit: 1000


View Profile
June 18, 2014, 08:30:47 AM
 #16

Everybody will notice the mining of a private fork!!!!

Not until it's too late.

If at the same time no blocks over the next couple hours were ghash.io's, that would be a "network event" that would indicate quite possibly that a pool is attempting a 51% attack.

FACT: Just this morning ghash.io didn't find any blocks for 1.5 hours, and nobody raised an eyebrow. Later this morning they released 5 blocks in 20 minutes. They may be also be hiding their actual mining rate by releasing some blocks without telling. For instance http://blockchain.info/blocks/91.121.192.38 has only released 4 blocks, but 3 of them appeared within less than 2 hours. This strongly suggests that a lot of the unknown mining power belongs to a single entity which is frequently switching IP.
murraypaul
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 18, 2014, 09:00:35 AM
 #17


Let's have some FUD vs. FACT now.

------------------

FUD: Double-spends: GHash actually engaged in such an attack before it reached the 51% mark, and it could do so again

FACT: Ghash.io has never committed double spending against a CONFIRMED transaction. Apparently at one time Ghash.io had committed fraud against an online gambling site by performing a Finney attack to cancel their non-winning bet transactions. This was possible because the casino recognized payment on 0/unconfirmed transactions -- something that NOBODY would recommend a merchant do for an anonymous, online service.

So you've just agreed that they did engage in a double-spend attack? Not really FUD then, is it?
But it is ok because they only attacked stupid people?

BTC: 16TgAGdiTSsTWSsBDphebNJCFr1NT78xFW
SRC: scefi1XMhq91n3oF5FrE3HqddVvvCZP9KB
notthematrix
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 963
Merit: 1000


The All-in-One Cryptocurrency Exchange


View Profile
June 18, 2014, 10:07:01 AM
 #18


Let's have some FUD vs. FACT now.

------------------

FUD: Double-spends: GHash actually engaged in such an attack before it reached the 51% mark, and it could do so again

FACT: Ghash.io has never committed double spending against a CONFIRMED transaction. Apparently at one time Ghash.io had committed fraud against an online gambling site by performing a Finney attack to cancel their non-winning bet transactions. This was possible because the casino recognized payment on 0/unconfirmed transactions -- something that NOBODY would recommend a merchant do for an anonymous, online service.

So you've just agreed that they did engage in a double-spend attack? Not really FUD then, is it?
But it is ok because they only attacked stupid people?

Not quite.



Bitcoin transactions: Why it is recommended to wait for at least six confirmations?

Due to its decentralized nature, bitcoin can’t rely on a master authoritative source to prevent double-spending, when an attacker tries to spend some money more than once. Anyway, various defensive strategies have been implemented to minimize chances for such a fraudulent activity to happen in the bitcoin network.

One particular approach, described by the Bitcoin Wiki as a Brute force attack, can be attempted by an attacker with relatively high mining hashrate, but not necessarily above 50% level. The attack would follow this pattern:

1. The attacker submits a transaction to the network which pays the merchant.

2. At the same time, he will immediately start to privately mine his own blocks, where he will include the double-spending transaction instead of the one where he pays the merchant. But if he manages to find a new block, he will not broadcast it to the network.

3. The merchant will wait for 6 confirmations and then sends the product. But if the attacker managed to mine more than 6 blocks at this time, he can release his own private fork to the network, and since he has the longest chain, other nodes would accept it and the original transaction will get rejected. This way, the attacker gets both the merchant product and also his bitcoins back.

It might seem that such an attack is statistically unlikely to happen, but when we suppose, that the attacker possess for example 25% of the network hashpower, the probability that he will mine 7 blocks in a row is 0.25^7 = 0.006%. This looks like a very small probability, but with block time being 10 minutes, mining 7 block in a row will happen approximately once per four months.
Fortunately, there is another measure implemented in the Bitcoin protocol, which eliminates the possibility of such an attack. In the Protocol rules description at Bitcoin wiki, it is listed as a Rule 13 for “block” messages:

13. Reject if timestamp is the median time of the last 11 blocks or before

This can be interpreted in a following way: If the attacker will try to mine his own private blockchain fork, other nodes will almost certainly reject it, if his length is more than 6 blocks, since the timestamp of the first such mined block will be almost certainly older than the median time of the last 11 mined blocks. Replacing 6 or less blocks is possible, but when attacker tries to replace 7 or more blocks, the first one will be too old to be accepted.

TL;DR: Six bitcoin confirmations is not an arbitrary number. If payee accepts a transaction with less than six confirmations, it is possible that the attacker, even without a majority of the hashpower, can launch a brute force attack by mining his private blockchain fork and reverse the transaction. With six or more confirmations, such an attack will be rejected by the Protocol rule 13 described above.


Note for programmers: The check is implemented in the method GetMedianTimePast() and called in method AcceptBlock(), file main.cpp:

bool CBlock::AcceptBlock(CValidationState &state, CDiskBlockPos *dbp)
{
...
// Check timestamp against prev
if (GetBlockTime() GetMedianTimePast())
return state.Invalid(error("AcceptBlock() : block's timestamp is too early"));

...
}


██████
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
                ▄███
              ▄███▌ █
             ▀▀▀██▄  █
           ▄███▄▄ ▀▀▀█
          █ █████▀▀▀▄▄
         ▄██ ███▄    █
        ▐███▀   ▀█   █
        ████     █   █
       ▄██▀▄█▄▄▄█▀   █
       ▀▄▄███▌      █
   ▄▄▄▀▀▀████       █
 ▄▀    ██ ██       █
▐▌     ██▌▐▌      ▀▄
█      ██ █         ▀▄
█      █▀▄▌          █
█   ▄▀█▄██           █
█ ▄▀      ▀▀▄▄▀▄     █
▀▀             █    █
               █  ▄▀
               ▀▄█
     ▀█████████████▄▄
  ▀ ▀▀▀███████████████▌
   ▀ ▀▀▀▀██▀▀▀▀▀▀██████         ▄███████▄      ▄▄███████▄    ▄███▄    ▄███▄ ▄███▄      ▄███▄
▀ ▀▀▀▀█████▄▄▄▄▄▄█████▌       ▄████▀▀▀████▄   ▐████▀▀█████   ▀████▄  ▄████▀ █████▄    ▄█████
    ▀▀███████████████▀       █████     ████▌          ████▌    ▀████████▀    █████▄  ▄█████▌
   ▀ ▀████████████████▀ ▀    ██████████████▌   ▄▄██████████     ▄██████▄      █████▄▄█████▌
     ██████      ██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ ▀ █████▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀    █████▀▀▀█████    ▄████████▄      ██████████▌
     ██████▄▄▄▄▄▄██████▄ ▄    ████▄▄   ▄▄█▄   ████▄  ▄█████  ▄█████▀▀█████▄     ████████▌
     █████████████████▀        ▀███████████   ▀████████████  ████▀    ▀████      ██████▌
     ██████████████▀▀             ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀       ▀▀▀▀▀▀ ▀▀▀    ▀▀        ▀▀        █████
                                                                                ▄█████
                                                                            ▄███████▀
                                                                            ▀████▀▀
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
██████
|█████████████████
███████████████████
█████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
  WHITEPAPER 
  LIGHTPAPER...
|Instant Deposit
✓ 24/7 Support
Referral Program
notthematrix
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 963
Merit: 1000


The All-in-One Cryptocurrency Exchange


View Profile
June 18, 2014, 10:10:38 AM
Last edit: June 18, 2014, 10:25:32 AM by notthematrix
 #19


Let's have some FUD vs. FACT now.

------------------

FUD: Double-spends: GHash actually engaged in such an attack before it reached the 51% mark, and it could do so again

FACT: Ghash.io has never committed double spending against a CONFIRMED transaction. Apparently at one time Ghash.io had committed fraud against an online gambling site by performing a Finney attack to cancel their non-winning bet transactions. This was possible because the casino recognized payment on 0/unconfirmed transactions -- something that NOBODY would recommend a merchant do for an anonymous, online service.

So you've just agreed that they did engage in a double-spend attack? Not really FUD then, is it?
But it is ok because they only attacked stupid people?

Not quite. UNCONFIRMID TRANSACTIONS WERE NEVER MENT TO BE SAVE AT AL!!!!
accepting 0 confirmations is no safety and is not  honoring the BTC protocol at all.  
accepting 0 confirmations as save is plain stupid.
this is why there must be 6 CONFIRMATIONS!

I don't like this very selective way of reading you are CLEARLY FUDDING , so here my answer......

Bitcoin transactions: Why it is recommended to wait for at least six confirmations?

Due to its decentralized nature, bitcoin can’t rely on a master authoritative source to prevent double-spending, when an attacker tries to spend some money more than once. Anyway, various defensive strategies have been implemented to minimize chances for such a fraudulent activity to happen in the bitcoin network.

One particular approach, described by the Bitcoin Wiki as a Brute force attack, can be attempted by an attacker with relatively high mining hashrate, but not necessarily above 50% level. The attack would follow this pattern:

1. The attacker submits a transaction to the network which pays the merchant.

2. At the same time, he will immediately start to privately mine his own blocks, where he will include the double-spending transaction instead of the one where he pays the merchant. But if he manages to find a new block, he will not broadcast it to the network.

3. The merchant will wait for 6 confirmations and then sends the product. But if the attacker managed to mine more than 6 blocks at this time, he can release his own private fork to the network, and since he has the longest chain, other nodes would accept it and the original transaction will get rejected. This way, the attacker gets both the merchant product and also his bitcoins back.

It might seem that such an attack is statistically unlikely to happen, but when we suppose, that the attacker possess for example 25% of the network hashpower, the probability that he will mine 7 blocks in a row is 0.25^7 = 0.006%. This looks like a very small probability, but with block time being 10 minutes, mining 7 block in a row will happen approximately once per four months.
Fortunately, there is another measure implemented in the Bitcoin protocol, which eliminates the possibility of such an attack. In the Protocol rules description at Bitcoin wiki, it is listed as a Rule 13 for “block” messages:

13. Reject if timestamp is the median time of the last 11 blocks or before

This can be interpreted in a following way: If the attacker will try to mine his own private blockchain fork, other nodes will almost certainly reject it, if his length is more than 6 blocks, since the timestamp of the first such mined block will be almost certainly older than the median time of the last 11 mined blocks. Replacing 6 or less blocks is possible, but when attacker tries to replace 7 or more blocks, the first one will be too old to be accepted.

TL;DR: Six bitcoin confirmations is not an arbitrary number. If payee accepts a transaction with less than six confirmations, it is possible that the attacker, even without a majority of the hashpower, can launch a brute force attack by mining his private blockchain fork and reverse the transaction. With six or more confirmations, such an attack will be rejected by the Protocol rule 13 described above.


Note for programmers: The check is implemented in the method GetMedianTimePast() and called in method AcceptBlock(), file main.cpp:

bool CBlock::AcceptBlock(CValidationState &state, CDiskBlockPos *dbp)
{
...
// Check timestamp against prev
if (GetBlockTime() GetMedianTimePast())
return state.Invalid(error("AcceptBlock() : block's timestamp is too early"));

...
}



██████
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
                ▄███
              ▄███▌ █
             ▀▀▀██▄  █
           ▄███▄▄ ▀▀▀█
          █ █████▀▀▀▄▄
         ▄██ ███▄    █
        ▐███▀   ▀█   █
        ████     █   █
       ▄██▀▄█▄▄▄█▀   █
       ▀▄▄███▌      █
   ▄▄▄▀▀▀████       █
 ▄▀    ██ ██       █
▐▌     ██▌▐▌      ▀▄
█      ██ █         ▀▄
█      █▀▄▌          █
█   ▄▀█▄██           █
█ ▄▀      ▀▀▄▄▀▄     █
▀▀             █    █
               █  ▄▀
               ▀▄█
     ▀█████████████▄▄
  ▀ ▀▀▀███████████████▌
   ▀ ▀▀▀▀██▀▀▀▀▀▀██████         ▄███████▄      ▄▄███████▄    ▄███▄    ▄███▄ ▄███▄      ▄███▄
▀ ▀▀▀▀█████▄▄▄▄▄▄█████▌       ▄████▀▀▀████▄   ▐████▀▀█████   ▀████▄  ▄████▀ █████▄    ▄█████
    ▀▀███████████████▀       █████     ████▌          ████▌    ▀████████▀    █████▄  ▄█████▌
   ▀ ▀████████████████▀ ▀    ██████████████▌   ▄▄██████████     ▄██████▄      █████▄▄█████▌
     ██████      ██▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ ▀ █████▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀    █████▀▀▀█████    ▄████████▄      ██████████▌
     ██████▄▄▄▄▄▄██████▄ ▄    ████▄▄   ▄▄█▄   ████▄  ▄█████  ▄█████▀▀█████▄     ████████▌
     █████████████████▀        ▀███████████   ▀████████████  ████▀    ▀████      ██████▌
     ██████████████▀▀             ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀       ▀▀▀▀▀▀ ▀▀▀    ▀▀        ▀▀        █████
                                                                                ▄█████
                                                                            ▄███████▀
                                                                            ▀████▀▀
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
███
██████
|█████████████████
███████████████████
█████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
  WHITEPAPER 
  LIGHTPAPER...
|Instant Deposit
✓ 24/7 Support
Referral Program
murraypaul
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 18, 2014, 10:33:09 AM
 #20


Let's have some FUD vs. FACT now.

FUD: Double-spends: GHash actually engaged in such an attack before it reached the 51% mark, and it could do so again

FACT: Ghash.io has never committed double spending against a CONFIRMED transaction. Apparently at one time Ghash.io had committed fraud against an online gambling site by performing a Finney attack to cancel their non-winning bet transactions. This was possible because the casino recognized payment on 0/unconfirmed transactions -- something that NOBODY would recommend a merchant do for an anonymous, online service.

So you've just agreed that they did engage in a double-spend attack? Not really FUD then, is it?
But it is ok because they only attacked stupid people?

Not quite.
(snip unrelated information)

Quite. You've just said that they did perform a double spend attack.

BTC: 16TgAGdiTSsTWSsBDphebNJCFr1NT78xFW
SRC: scefi1XMhq91n3oF5FrE3HqddVvvCZP9KB
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!