I no longer work for Butterfly Labs (BFL)

[seantab]

Excellent I wish I saw this before.  Great link to be pinned on top of the forums.  I recommend manufacture complete name be used accompanied by their abbreviation.  i.e. Butterfly Labs (BFL).  I just sent PM to Dogie for this tiny edits. 

Thanks for the link Intron

I think what this forum or similar could do to help is a recommended manufacture link and rated by trusted senior members like your selves.  I am sure such link probably exist but perhaps buried or crowded with many posts.  I guess clean list of scam alerts for member and or manufacture, that is easy to locate would be very helpful and could reduce number of people falling in this trap.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=456691.msg5035154#msg5035154

[bcp19]

I think that the Habanero is running 600+ watts through a single board. 4 6 pin power plugs.
It gets pretty dang hot.

Habaneros are capable of pulling about 800W readily, with around 90% efficient phased VRMs outputting around 900mV. Assuming 90% conversion to 0.9V that's 800A of low-volt DC. 300A at 0.6V isn't actually too hard to pull off reliably. Just saying, but every other ASIC manufacturer has accomplished that or better in a heck of a lot less time.

The Habanero actually has 4 6 phase VRMs compared to 2 6 phase VRMs on the Monarch.  Each of the 4 VRMs are tested to 300A but only operate in the 100-150 amp range.  If you have a copper trace with .0001 ohms of resistance, 100A is 1 watt of power loss, 150 is 1.25 watts.  Compare that to 300 amps... 9 watts of power loss.  So the Habanero has 4-5 watts of heat compared to 18 watts of heat if it's traces have the same resistance as the Monarch.  Then compare the voltage/resistance to hit the amps... R=E/I or .9/100-150 (.006-.009 ohms) vs .6/300 (.002 ohms).  .0001 ohms is 1.1-1.6% added resistance compared to 5%.  .9v becomes .909-.911v compared to .6 becoming .63v to get the needed voltage to the chips over the added resistance line.  More voltage becomes more heat, more heat becomes more resistance, more resistance becomes more amps... Designing a .9V VRM is much easier than a .6V one.

[kano]

I will give you this though... 300 amps at .6v... maybe now you understand the problem...

So you still don't have a handle on the heat dissipation on the boards yet?  Thanks for sharing that development tidbit.

Looks like Two Weeks™ then.

Good to know that BFL's top asshole shill PCB technician/engineer is on the job, working tirelessly to ensure "the problem..." gets solved as quickly as possible*

_{*When he isn't trolling the fuck out of bitcoin forums. One must set priorities, after all.}

I can confirm this also
Power is (yet again) an issue.

[sidehack]

Small correction, 150A through 0.1mOhm is 2.25W because P=R*I^2 but I'm guessing that was a typo.

So what you're saying is, you've been working for at least two months (or ten, somewhere in there) to design a VRM that isn't as good, to push power through traces that aren't as good. When did y'all find out you needed to be able to source 180A at 0.6V? Because that would have been a pretty good time to design the PCB with heavier traces.

[joeventura]

Small correction, 150A through 0.1mOhm is 2.25W because P=R*I^2 but I'm guessing that was a typo.

So what you're saying is, you've been working for at least two months (or ten, somewhere in there) to design a VRM that isn't as good, to push power through traces that aren't as good. When did y'all find out you needed to be able to source 180A at 0.6V? Because that would have been a pretty good time to design the PCB with heavier traces.

Deja Vu BFL, Did the same f*ck up you did with the 65nm line. I looked up "Stupid" and there was BFL.

[RoadStress]

2- BFL was located in US.  I figured worse case scenario I be dealing with a company in US than China or Europe.

Obviously you don't know the US laws very good because you are better off with a company from China or Europe than the ones from US which at this moment have a very "good" record of 100% failed companies out of all bitcoin hardware manufacturers. The US laws clearly protect the lying and scamming businesses, NOT the customers.

I think what this forum or similar could do to help is a recommended manufacture link and rated by trusted senior members like your selves.  I am sure such link probably exist but perhaps buried or crowded with many posts.  I guess clean list of scam alerts for member and or manufacture, that is easy to locate would be very helpful and could reduce number of people falling in this trap.

Welcome to the BitcoinTalk forum where it's a Free For All land. While there is logic in what you say it's not Admins/Moderators job to warn you about scams and you should make your own research (which you did). Add Reddit too next time, but a simple look over the Hardware forum and you could've saw the BFL threads. At least it was a lesson learned and next time you will do it better.

Here you can find a guide: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=456691.0

I am also twitting some of my findings to reporters who apparently interviewing BFL and using appropriate # hashtag to help expose these jackasses whenever I get a chance.  As you would see in Josh twitter.  However I am doing it based on facts also copying FBI and KC police, in case they actually read the tweets.

ArsTechnica had a good article http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/04/digging-for-answers-the-strong-smell-of-fraud-from-one-bitcoin-miner-maker/

Twitting to reporters is okish. Better go and tell your story to Sonny's officer who is likely to put him back to jail and maybe Josh Zerlan too for deceiving their customers.

[bcp19]

Small correction, 150A through 0.1mOhm is 2.25W because P=R*I^2 but I'm guessing that was a typo.

So what you're saying is, you've been working for at least two months (or ten, somewhere in there) to design a VRM that isn't as good, to push power through traces that aren't as good. When did y'all find out you needed to be able to source 180A at 0.6V? Because that would have been a pretty good time to design the PCB with heavier traces.

Yes, that was a typo.  The point is still valid though.  The problem is one of how do you test a circuit when you need a device capable of handling massive power at very very low resistance?  I don't know of an available resistive load capable of duplicating the ASIC chip in operation.  .002 ohm resistors capable of handling 300 amps are not something you can order at the local electronics store.  Maybe that is why other companies went the route of dozens to hundreds of chips instead of just two.  As to when, it was towards the end of last month when Josh posted we needed heavier traces.  He actually has been very transparent about what is going on.  The problem is this community doesn't believe anything and is forever looking for the ulterior motive. 

[intron]

Maybe that is why other companies went the route of dozens to hundreds of chips instead of just two. 

Bingo sir;)

[ShadesOfMarble]

He actually has been very transparent about what is going on.

I don't think that's an excuse for delivering hardware 12 months late.

The posts about the Monarch really sound identically to the posts which we saw with the 65 nm prodcuts. "Just a small tweak", "we are almost there", "minor PCB modification", "oh, another firmware tweak", "small problems with VRM", "adding clock buffers" etc. etc... In the end all those very minor problems sum up to 12 months.

And BFL insisted the Monarch will not have any delays because of the experience from the 65 nm products. You must have learned a lot.

While I'm looking at the landing page: "The Competition - at least $ 17.50 /GH". What?

The Antminers S1 last price was 1.3 $/GH/s. Your Monarch is two times more expensive. The Antminer was already deliverd. There is no sign that the Monarch will be delivered anytime soon.

The BFL homepage is full of deception. Why does BFL need that? Other vendors just sell hardware, why can't BFL do that?

[sidehack]

Small correction, 150A through 0.1mOhm is 2.25W because P=R*I^2 but I'm guessing that was a typo.

So what you're saying is, you've been working for at least two months (or ten, somewhere in there) to design a VRM that isn't as good, to push power through traces that aren't as good. When did y'all find out you needed to be able to source 180A at 0.6V? Because that would have been a pretty good time to design the PCB with heavier traces.

Yes, that was a typo.  The point is still valid though.  The problem is one of how do you test a circuit when you need a device capable of handling massive power at very very low resistance?  I don't know of an available resistive load capable of duplicating the ASIC chip in operation.  .002 ohm resistors capable of handling 300 amps are not something you can order at the local electronics store.  Maybe that is why other companies went the route of dozens to hundreds of chips instead of just two.  As to when, it was towards the end of last month when Josh posted we needed heavier traces.  He actually has been very transparent about what is going on.  The problem is this community doesn't believe anything and is forever looking for the ulterior motive. 

I built a 300A-capable watercooled adjustable active dummy load in my basement in a couple weeks for stress-testing our 200A-capable PSU interface boards. Mind you it's designed to operate at 12V nominal but would probably work below 1V (I think the main limitation is low-side current sense resistors limiting my minimum voltage to .625V at a full 300A draw) but if one guy can do that, a multi-million-dollar business can figure out how to do sink 300A. Bolting 20 of http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/WSBS8518L1000JK/WSBSA-.0001-ND/2421966 together in series for .002ohm 720W-capable would be a good start for under $200 if you wanted a fixed load. Stick 'em in an oil bucket or something.

[Xian01]

2- BFL was located in US.  I figured worse case scenario I be dealing with a company in US than China or Europe.

Anecdote: I wanted to be a good patriotic citizen and "Buy American" by supporting Butterfly Labs. One of the biggest commercial mistakes of my life and really opened my eyes to how corrupt things have been allowed to become in this country.

Never again will patriotism guide my purchasing decisions as a result.

[seantab]

Good point...  but the only thing we make these days is babies most other things pretty much made in China.  Kidding aside, I wont buy anymore miner, but if I do, I sure come to this forum to get some intelligent advice from you guys.  I love that link Dogie posted about Manufacture reports.  I think it should be cleaned up a bit and broadcast by senior members.  I am doing my tweeting but I am a peon compared to you guys.  That would help a lot of people.  Note BFL stuff being sold in retail, what people dont know these guys pocket almost all the funds and their preorders take forever to build.  That real problem is their greed stealing all the money and they dont adequately fund their dev and customer service teams.  Which means they dont really give a FU#$ when their customers get product or they mine with the Miners customer paid.  Luckily I havent used their RMA thank goodness. 

Anecdote: I wanted to be a good patriotic citizen and "Buy American" by supporting Butterfly Labs. One of the biggest commercial mistakes of my life and really opened my eyes to how corrupt things have been allowed to become in this country.
Never again will patriotism guide my purchasing decisions as a result.

[sidehack]

I'm an American manufacturer but please don't be scared to buy our stuff. I like to think that how BFL does business is not representative of American business in general (though, realistically...) I look to my uncle's die casting company for inspiration - he and half a dozen other guys left a crappy outfit because the management weren't allowing them to make their products better, so they started their own business and within a few years were doing more work (and better) because they actually put focus on doing the job right and taking care of the customer. That's what American business is supposed to do. Thanks for crapping the rest of us, BFL.

[nibbknot]

I'm an American manufacturer but please don't be scared to buy our stuff. I like to think that how BFL does business is not representative of American business in general (though, realistically...) I look to my uncle's die casting company for inspiration - he and half a dozen other guys left a crappy outfit because the management weren't allowing them to make their products better, so they started their own business and within a few years were doing more work (and better) because they actually put focus on doing the job right and taking care of the customer. That's what American business is supposed to do. Thanks for crapping the rest of us, BFL.

From what I understand BFL is owned by Sonny who once left the US to try to start a new country in Costa Rica selling memberships for thousands of dollars and from there ripped off the elderly mostly in the US with his lottery scheme because they are an easy mark. Now that he's back in the US he found easier marks to buy his money machines that I and Bruce and a bunch of Mexicans that were eaten by a Chupacabra help built.

The only part of the above that may or not be true is the Chupacabra part and I'm starting to wonder about that because Bruce, who now has me on ignore, never denied it. Speaking of Bruce, remember when I told you guys that Josh is Bi? Well, so is Bruce. You can put two and two together so I don't have to.

[joeventura]

 Maybe that is why other companies went the route of dozens to hundreds of chips instead of just two.  

Because that is what works and because BFL couldn't get it right on the first try EVER

[joeventura]

I'm an American manufacturer but please don't be scared to buy our stuff. I like to think that how BFL does business is not representative of American business in general (though, realistically...) I look to my uncle's die casting company for inspiration - he and half a dozen other guys left a crappy outfit because the management weren't allowing them to make their products better, so they started their own business and within a few years were doing more work (and better) because they actually put focus on doing the job right and taking care of the customer. That's what American business is supposed to do. Thanks for crapping the rest of us, BFL.

Sidehack products rule.

I have a box of them!

[joeventura]

Speaking of Bruce, remember when I told you guys that Josh is Bi? Well, so is Bruce. You can put two and two together so I don't have to.

Explains so much.

[ABitNut]

Just wondering... PG, is nibbknot your sockpuppet?

[nibbknot]

Just wondering... PG, is nibbknot your sockpuppet?

I posted before that I am not PG and don't have sockpuppets (had to look it up to make sure it meant what I thought it meant which is other accounts). Don't know if PG does but ask him. And why do people keep asking me this?

[ABitNut]

Just wondering... PG, is nibbknot your sockpuppet?

I posted before that I am not PG and don't have sockpuppets (had to look it up to make sure it meant what I thought it meant which is other accounts). Don't know if PG does but ask him. And why do people keep asking me this?

1) You're obviously hiding your identity
2) PG is awfully quiet lately
3) It seems PG would have access to the information you have
4) PG apparantly got paid off to stop ragging on BFL
5) Then PG of course wouldn't be able to keep this info quiet for too long... Making a sock puppet to get the info out seems par for the course on this forum.
6) Your writing style is quite different, but there are still some characteristics that I would attribute to PG