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Author Topic: Bitcoin Conference 2012- London 15-16 Sept | ANNOUNCEMENT sponsorship available!  (Read 42547 times)
Bitcoin Oz
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August 15, 2012, 07:52:19 AM
 #221

For god sakes people, another thread, one of any of the other dozen or so threads, PLEASE.

Shut up, let ppl speak for themselves.

Amir, you made me sick. You're lucky i'm not thousands miles from London.


Whats that supposed to mean ?

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August 15, 2012, 07:57:37 AM
 #222

For god sakes people, another thread, one of any of the other dozen or so threads, PLEASE.

Shut up, let ppl speak for themselves.

Amir, you made me sick. You're lucky i'm not thousands miles from London.


Whats that supposed to mean ?

typo due to rage....

Cant believe ppl let worthless shiet like him to organize the conference. Get the fck off bitcoin community already.

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August 15, 2012, 08:47:14 AM
 #223

...the emo guy who's involved in 200 projects and delivered none to a decent standard.

You've just described every self-styled "entrepreneur", "visionary", and "ideas person" I've ever met.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)
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August 15, 2012, 09:54:37 AM
 #224

Even though I am also awaiting a refund from Bitcoinica, I would like to make this debate more balanced.

You need to realise that Amir, Patrick and Donald are three individuals. They are not the same person. What bad did Amir do? He blabbers a lot, has strong opinions about issues and he released confidential documents. For Bitcoinica's creditors, the first two are irrelevant. The last one is to a large extent an internal issue between him and Bitcoinica. What remains is the (presumably inadvertent) release of the password within the confidential documents that lead to a theft of some funds, of which a large proportion has been recovered in the meantime. But this is as well an internal issue of Bitcoinica.

Amir (based on available information) did not have access to Bitcoinica's funds, and if I recall right from his posts, his suggestions about the refund process were rejected (by Patrick, presumably).

In summary, the creditors have no logical reason to be angry with Amir, even though they have plenty of emotional reasons.
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August 15, 2012, 09:58:09 AM
 #225

Please redirect all rage,FUD and witch burning to some other thread!
There are plenty of them
//DeaDTerra
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August 15, 2012, 10:06:49 AM
 #226

In summary, the creditors have no logical reason to be angry with Amir, even though they have plenty of emotional reasons.

1. Amir is directly responsible for allowing the theft of what is currently worth more than $500,000 worth of customer funds.
2. Amir is directly responsible for the destruction of the only asset that Bitcoinica had, that could have been sold to pay off the creditors. (The proprietary Bitcoinica code)
3. Amir is directly responsible for delaying the return of funds to creditors by refusing to relinquish his control of Bitcoinica.


I think the creditors have plenty of rational reasons to be super angry with Amir. (Genjix)

lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)
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August 15, 2012, 11:38:28 AM
 #227

1. Amir is directly responsible for allowing the theft of what is currently worth more than $500,000 worth of customer funds.
The theft is an internal issue of Bitcoinica. Yes, it's a bad security practice, yes, it could be a contract violation. But it's not our (creditors') problem.

2. Amir is directly responsible for the destruction of the only asset that Bitcoinica had, that could have been sold to pay off the creditors. (The proprietary Bitcoinica code)
Amir did not destroy it, he published it. This does not invalidate the copyright claim of Bitcoinica so it cannot be used by a competitor directly without approval. Furthermore, the hedging algorithm (which is the only thing that can hypothetically be considered valuable, everything else is glue and UI) wasn't performing well and was supposed to be changed anyway. I looked at the the source code, and the hedging algorithm appears to be very simple (I wrote and ran an arbitrage bot between Mt. Gox and Tradehill in the past so I know a bit about it). It appears to me that it just sets up a single order in the "underhedged" sum per job run and then leaves the position open until it either executes or the available reserves go to zero and then it cancels all open orders. That's not exactly rocket science.

3. Amir is directly responsible for delaying the return of funds to creditors by refusing to relinquish his control of Bitcoinica.
I don't know the exact contents of your negotiations, but since he did not appear to have much control in the first place, it probably would have had very little practical effect if he agreed.
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August 15, 2012, 12:04:07 PM
 #228

1. Amir is directly responsible for allowing the theft of what is currently worth more than $500,000 worth of customer funds.
The theft is an internal issue of Bitcoinica. Yes, it's a bad security practice, yes, it could be a contract violation. But it's not our (creditors') problem.

2. Amir is directly responsible for the destruction of the only asset that Bitcoinica had, that could have been sold to pay off the creditors. (The proprietary Bitcoinica code)
Amir did not destroy it, he published it. This does not invalidate the copyright claim of Bitcoinica so it cannot be used by a competitor directly without approval. Furthermore, the hedging algorithm (which is the only thing that can hypothetically be considered valuable, everything else is glue and UI) wasn't performing well and was supposed to be changed anyway. I looked at the the source code, and the hedging algorithm appears to be very simple (I wrote and ran an arbitrage bot between Mt. Gox and Tradehill in the past so I know a bit about it). It appears to me that it just sets up a single order in the "underhedged" sum per job run and then leaves the position open until it either executes or the available reserves go to zero and then it cancels all open orders. That's not exactly rocket science.

3. Amir is directly responsible for delaying the return of funds to creditors by refusing to relinquish his control of Bitcoinica.
I don't know the exact contents of your negotiations, but since he did not appear to have much control in the first place, it probably would have had very little practical effect if he agreed.

1.  It is my problem because it was my money that was stolen.

2. There was a deal in the works for Bitcoinica to be sold for enough money to cover the entire shortfall for returning customer funds. That deal fell apart because Amir open sourced the code. Open sourcing it destroyed most of its value in the eyes of the potential buyers.

3.  Between Amir, Patrick, and Donald, they had total control.  All we needed was for two of the three to cooperate and every creditor would be much better off today, and likely have %100 of their money back.  Instead Patrick lied to me via email, and again right to my face when I met him in SF. Amir and Donald refused to even reply to emails.

The best thing they the three of them can do for Bitcoin is to leave forever!

lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)
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August 15, 2012, 01:07:46 PM
 #229

1.  It is my problem because it was my money that was stolen.
The problem is Bitcoinica refusing refunds, not money being stolen. Money being stolen is an internal Bitcoinica issue. If anything, the loss of the database was much more influential than the loss of funds.

2. There was a deal in the works for Bitcoinica to be sold for enough money to cover the entire shortfall for returning customer funds. That deal fell apart because Amir open sourced the code. Open sourcing it destroyed most of its value in the eyes of the potential buyers.
I would not value the source code for more than 10k, that's how much I estimate it would cost to pay a developer to write it from scratch. The value of Bitcoinica, in my opinion, was in its market share and alleged regulatory compliance. The value of infrastructure, security and business processes is zero as it was a total disaster.

Also he did not "open source" it, that's not the correct legal term.

It is sad that the deal fell apart, but again this is an internal Bitcoinica issue. Even if you were involved in the process, you're not the owner of Bitcoinica and this did not violate a contract between you and Amir, nor your property rights.

3.  Between Amir, Patrick, and Donald, they had total control.  All we needed was for two of the three to cooperate and every creditor would be much better off today, and likely have %100 of their money back.  Instead Patrick lied to me via email, and again right to my face when I met him in SF. Amir and Donald refused to even reply to emails.
Amir != Patrick and Amir != Donald.

Amir is a hacker (in the original sense) and an activist. He's not a businessman and has, in my opinion, a poor business judgement. But with respect to the objections brought here against him, even when they are in a causal connection with the fiasco, the relationship is either weak or not legally relevant for the creditors.

To the extent where he violated contracts and/or property rights, he can be sued, in particular the Wendon group (and now Bitcoinica represented by the receiver/liquidator) probably has a strong claim. Other than that, simply don't entrust him with confidential information and larger amounts of money. There is no reason for hostilities.
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August 15, 2012, 01:11:54 PM
 #230

2. There was a deal in the works for Bitcoinica to be sold for enough money to cover the entire shortfall for returning customer funds. That deal fell apart because Amir open sourced the code. Open sourcing it destroyed most of its value in the eyes of the potential buyers.
I would not value the source code for more than 10k, that's how much I estimate it would cost to pay a developer to write it from scratch. The value of Bitcoinica, in my opinion, was in its market share and alleged regulatory compliance. The value of infrastructure, security and business processes is zero as it was a total disaster.

Also he did not "open source" it, that's not the correct legal term.

It is sad that the deal fell apart, but again this is an internal Bitcoinica issue. Even if you were involved in the process, you're not the owner of Bitcoinica and this did not violate a contract between you and Amir, nor your property rights.



The MtGox API Key was inside the source code that Amir released!!!!

All the hacker had to do was open the file and read the code.

He had no legal right to do that, nor a moral right. It's stupid negligence.

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August 15, 2012, 01:42:03 PM
 #231

does _EVERY_ fucking thread have to either be about pirate or bitcoinica?

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lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)
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August 15, 2012, 01:53:37 PM
 #232

The MtGox API Key was inside the source code that Amir released!!!!
If I understand that correctly, this API key has long been revoked. But the key was also used as a password for an entirely unrelated lastpass account. Even though this has not been said explicitly, Amir probably had no way of knowing that this is the case. Allegedly, it was Tihan who set the password, and Patrick who left it unchanged. Are you going to blame Tihan too with the same ferocity?

The developers should not have access to live system credentials anyway. That being said, if I was doing the leak, I would have sanitised the config files, even if they only contained references to testing environment access.

All the hacker had to do was open the file and read the code.
The hacker had to understand it as well, and realise that the key is reused in a different system.

He had no legal right to do that, nor a moral right. It's stupid negligence.
Releasing the code may have violated the contractual obligations he had with Bitcoinica. I even agree with you it was stupid and to the extent the config files were not sanitised, negligent.

But you need to view it from the perspective of Amir's hacker-type personality. Confidential arrangements are simply not suitable for him. He should have realised this himself before getting involved in Bitcoinica and explained that he can only get involved if he is not required to compromise his ideals. It might sound silly, but that's the way it is.

For past transgressions, this of course should have no effect on the responsibilities and/or punishment. But the future is what I'm worried about. People who are different should not be condemned for all eternity. Rather, their qualities and peculiarities should be assessed impartially and not hinder mutually beneficial arrangements, as I believe the conference can be.
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August 15, 2012, 03:39:48 PM
 #233

Several pages of arguing about Amir's involvement and responsibility instead of just kicking him out of conference planning? This won't end well.

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August 15, 2012, 05:57:22 PM
 #234

I'm picturing the head lines in 'The Sun' now:

"Silkroad induced cryptocurrency roid rage ensues!"
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August 15, 2012, 06:10:21 PM
 #235

Its quite simple really, EVERY PERSON involved or connected to Bitcoinica, its operation and ownership should NOT be involved in the operation or ownership of ANY other bitcoin-related venture because their reputation has been tainted (whether guilty or not) and will therefore taint anything they're involved with.

The bitcoin conference must be spared the controversy, or become a victim of it.


BB.
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August 15, 2012, 06:52:11 PM
 #236

But you need to view it from the perspective of Amir's hacker-type personality. Confidential arrangements are simply not suitable for him. He should have realised this himself before getting involved in Bitcoinica and explained that he can only get involved if he is not required to compromise his ideals. It might sound silly, but that's the way it is.

For past transgressions, this of course should have no effect on the responsibilities and/or punishment. But the future is what I'm worried about. People who are different should not be condemned for all eternity. Rather, their qualities and peculiarities should be assessed impartially and not hinder mutually beneficial arrangements, as I believe the conference can be.
Lol, is that like saying murderers are ok to murder because that's their personality type?

Putting the legalities of what Amir did aside, he DID violate his ethical obligations to Bitcoinica's customers by releasing the source code and by refusing to relinquish his control of Bitcoinica.  I don't think anyone here is questioning the legality of Amir's actions - that'll all get figured out in court.  But they have every reason to be upset at him for his actions because of the delay and potential reduction of the refunds they will now be getting as a direct result of his actions.  And those sorts of actions can't be passed off as a "personality" type.

He absolutely should be condemned by those attending the conference (and he should step out of it too).  You wouldn't sit down for lunch with a criminal after prosecuting him in the courtroom minutes earlier, so why do you expect those who are owed so much money by Amir to act cordially around him and the other Intersango guys as if they don't still owe them hundreds of thousands of dollars?

If I was in his position, I would definitely fear for my life, and wouldn't set foot anywhere near a Bitcoin gathering of any kind until the situation was resolved.  I don't know why he is so anxious to put his life in danger.  People have been killed over much smaller things.
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August 15, 2012, 07:43:23 PM
 #237

Perhaps we should request that Nefario lock this thread, and create a new one.

There are already many Bitcoinica threads...  please use those.

No matter your position on this issue, you are spamming this thread with off-topic content.  Yes, even you, genjix Smiley


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August 15, 2012, 07:50:16 PM
 #238

Perhaps we should request that Nefario lock this thread, and create a new one.

There are already many Bitcoinica threads...  please use those.

No matter your position on this issue, you are spamming this thread with off-topic content.  Yes, even you, genjix Smiley



I sent a report to the mods asking them to split the thread when the derail first happened.  As they didn't do so (and it would have been easy to do it a few posts in), I'm guessing that they don't regard the posts as off-topic.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 15, 2012, 08:37:42 PM
 #239


The MtGox API Key was inside the source code that Amir released!!!!

All the hacker had to do was open the file and read the code.

He had no legal right to do that, nor a moral right. It's stupid negligence.

With due respect, although the posting of the source code is a possible means by which someone gained the information needed to breach the MtGox account, it is not the most likely or credible explanation for how the MtGox thief obtained those credentials.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 15, 2012, 09:29:44 PM
 #240


The MtGox API Key was inside the source code that Amir released!!!!

All the hacker had to do was open the file and read the code.

He had no legal right to do that, nor a moral right. It's stupid negligence.

With due respect, although the posting of the source code is a possible means by which someone gained the information needed to breach the MtGox account, it is not the most likely or credible explanation for how the MtGox thief obtained those credentials.

From what I understand, it is.

The MtGox API Key was inside the source code that Amir released!!!!
If I understand that correctly, this API key has long been revoked. But the key was also used as a password for an entirely unrelated lastpass account. Even though this has not been said explicitly, Amir probably had no way of knowing that this is the case. Allegedly, it was Tihan who set the password, and Patrick who left it unchanged. Are you going to blame Tihan too with the same ferocity?

The developers should not have access to live system credentials anyway. That being said, if I was doing the leak, I would have sanitised the config files, even if they only contained references to testing environment access.

Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer.

More about me: http://CharlieShrem.com
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