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Question: Would you consider purchasing a Mini-Rig?
Will definitely purchase
May purchase
Unlikely
This miner doesn't belong here...

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Author Topic: Mini-Rig from Butterflylabs  (Read 19924 times)
Agent Provocateur
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March 23, 2012, 08:23:08 PM
 #101

a-lot-o-noise in this threat

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Inaba
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March 23, 2012, 08:23:51 PM
 #102

I'm not saying I disagree with you.  Especially about the warranty... I agree that it should be 1 year.  The reasoning for a 6 month warranty is sound, as given by BFL... but it's also just as sound as warrantying it for a year if you agree with the entire premise.  So yeah, I agree.

The rest of the stuff, I also agree with, it's just been said a hundred times over already, which is what elicited the pony comment. Yes, we all want those things... and either we are getting them or not, but while we're wishing, lets wish for ponies!  


If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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March 23, 2012, 08:25:10 PM
 #103

Yeah lets get back to the topic of mining.

BFL if you include a pony it better be a mining pony.



Obsolete by modern standards that PNY200 could mine 200 KC/D (kilo coals per day).  Those were the days when mining was tough.
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March 23, 2012, 09:04:57 PM
 #104

I did find some nice atx style redundant DC units - if it just has a standard atx we should be in business. 
I'd be interested in what you found. As you noted, the conversions back and forth between AC and DC have fairly substantial losses, but I have never been able to find a cost effective DC-DC converter. I have an extremely powerful 48VDC power source, and that would be perfect if I could find sufficiently powerful DC-DC converter that doesn't cost too much.

Hmm. I think I misread the output power on what I was looking at last night. I'm not finding a big enough atx unit for this application, though, that's not the only way to skin the cat, and I'm sure I overlooked something.

I got confirmation on my order from Sonny today, and asked if he'd look into this possibility for me.

Here's a few links. I can't vouch for the quality of the products below. Most of these are more applicable to folks with larger mining ops.

Simple cheap wall mount converter (48v-12v)
http://www.neobits.com/innovative_circuit_ict4812_20a_converter_24_48_12v_20a_p2769556.html?atc=gbs

Powerstream carries a few ATX items, but the biggest I found was 750w
http://www.powerstream.com/dc-dc.htm

Here are a couple others, more of a telco power distribution framework setup - for a rack full of mini or full rigs:
http://www.unipowerco.com/redundant-server-power-supply
http://www.newmartelecom.com/DC-DC-Converters-Rackmount/Rackmount-DC-Converters.html


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WhitePhantom
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March 23, 2012, 09:30:42 PM
 #105

Sonny allowed me to convert my rig box order to two mini-rigs.  That should work better for me since I can split the two into separate corporate data centers and avoid straining the A/C unit in just one data center.

As a side note, I plan to monitor my electricity usage and "pay back" my employer by using my personal credit card for an appropriate amount of IT purchases each month.

I wonder if adding 10% or 20% to the $.095/KWh would be sufficient for the extra A/C usage...
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March 23, 2012, 09:41:24 PM
 #106

Sonny allowed me to convert my rig box order to two mini-rigs.  That should work better for me since I can split the two into separate corporate data centers and avoid straining the A/C unit in just one data center.

As a side note, I plan to monitor my electricity usage and "pay back" my employer by using my personal credit card for an appropriate amount of IT purchases each month.

I wonder if adding 10% or 20% to the $.095/KWh would be sufficient for the extra A/C usage...

Well - that would imply the mini-rig is not a concept but a product you can order?!?

Lemme guess 10-12 weeks  Wink

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March 24, 2012, 12:40:06 AM
 #107

official confirmation of mini-rig availability from a BFL rep would be great, even if its labelled as a pre-announcement community preview leak.
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March 24, 2012, 03:19:38 AM
 #108

Sonny allowed me to convert my rig box order to two mini-rigs.  That should work better for me since I can split the two into separate corporate data centers and avoid straining the A/C unit in just one data center.

As a side note, I plan to monitor my electricity usage and "pay back" my employer by using my personal credit card for an appropriate amount of IT purchases each month.

I wonder if adding 10% or 20% to the $.095/KWh would be sufficient for the extra A/C usage...

Well - that would imply the mini-rig is not a concept but a product you can order?!?

Lemme guess 10-12 weeks  Wink

Sonny said my two mini-rigs will ship end of June, which is the same time my rig box was supposed to ship.  So...More like 13-14 weeks.  Long time to have $30k out there, but I think it'll be worth it.
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March 24, 2012, 12:21:30 PM
 #109

Best of luck to you...

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kunibopl
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March 24, 2012, 12:53:19 PM
 #110

I really hope for all of you, that you won't discover, there's something seriously wrong with BFL.
there are many things, that don't fit together:

- poor customer support despite huge sums involved
- false avdertisment regarding product specs in the beginning
- very slow delivery
- wrong delivery times
- no updates on mini-rig on website
- very few delivered pieces

I'd buy, but this scares me off.

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March 24, 2012, 02:22:44 PM
 #111

- poor customer support despite huge sums involved
- false avdertisment regarding product specs in the beginning
- very slow delivery
- wrong delivery times
- no updates on mini-rig on website
- very few delivered pieces

I'd buy, but this scares me off.

+1

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March 24, 2012, 02:34:22 PM
 #112

Thanks for rehashing the same old tired "reasons" that have been stated 100 times before and everyone is already aware of.  Welcome to November 2011!

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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March 24, 2012, 03:31:52 PM
 #113

As someone who was an outspoken (and loud) critic of BFL I am convinced they aren't a "scam".  They masively overestimated their specs and timelines.  They also seem ill equipped to handle the non-tech portions of the demand they are facing.

IMHO the only real risks dealing w/ BFL are:
a) time risk.  800 MH/s miner earns ~15 BTC per month.  4 month delay = 60 BTC in lost revenue.
b) warranty risk.  If new orders take 12-16 weeks then how long will RMA take.
c) solvency risk. If company had a huge financial setback (say 1000 singles died under warranty) could they absorb that and continue to operate

basically the risks are the same as dealing with any small business where demand way outstrips productive capacity.  It would be smart for BFL to hire an business student (for next to nothing) to handle non-tech tasks like emails, order processing, releasing company statements, etc.

Psst BFL there is 10% unemployment right now (20%+ for college age workers), labor is cheap.
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March 24, 2012, 03:55:19 PM
 #114

As someone who was an outspoken (and loud) critic of BFL I am convinced they aren't a "scam".  They masively overestimated their specs and timelines.  They also seem ill equipped to handle the non-tech portions of the demand they are facing.

IMHO the only real risks dealing w/ BFL are:
a) time risk.  800 MH/s miner earns ~15 BTC per month.  4 month delay = 60 BTC in lost revenue.
b) warranty risk.  If new orders take 12-16 weeks then how long will RMA take.
c) solvency risk. If company had a huge financial setback (say 1000 singles died under warranty) could they absorb that and continue to operate

basically the risks are the same as dealing with any small business where demand way outstrips productive capacity.  It would be smart for BFL to hire an business student (for next to nothing) to handle non-tech tasks like emails, order processing, releasing company statements, etc.

Psst BFL there is 10% unemployment right now (20%+ for college age workers), labor is cheap.

Agreed. BFL has simply bit off more than they could chew.

Scale [a] up to a 25Ghps mini-rig and you have 1875 BTC ($8750) in lost revenue during that 4-month waiting period. Essentially your $15k mini-rig now costs you 55% more, or $23k (almost as much as the original 50.4Ghps full Rig Box). They really need to bring the delay between ORDER and DELIVERY way down.

Even on the Singles, they are still working to ship their December orders. 4-6 weeks isn't bad, if only it were true.

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triplehelix
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March 24, 2012, 04:06:08 PM
 #115

to be honest, that's the biggest concern i have with BFL.  not the very short warranty, not any scam concerns, not the glaring lack of pony, but the fact that they require full payment for a product they won't deliver for an extended time after receiving full payment.

almost every analog i can think of, takes a deposit, but doesn't require full payment until the product is ready to ship.  sure some take incremental payments (generally at pre-established milestones), but again, final payment isn't due until the project/product is ready for delivery.
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March 24, 2012, 05:48:48 PM
 #116

As someone who was an outspoken (and loud) critic of BFL I am convinced they aren't a "scam".  They masively overestimated their specs and timelines.  They also seem ill equipped to handle the non-tech portions of the demand they are facing.

IMHO the only real risks dealing w/ BFL are:
a) time risk.  800 MH/s miner earns ~15 BTC per month.  4 month delay = 60 BTC in lost revenue.
b) warranty risk.  If new orders take 12-16 weeks then how long will RMA take.
c) solvency risk. If company had a huge financial setback (say 1000 singles died under warranty) could they absorb that and continue to operate

basically the risks are the same as dealing with any small business where demand way outstrips productive capacity.  It would be smart for BFL to hire an business student (for next to nothing) to handle non-tech tasks like emails, order processing, releasing company statements, etc.

Psst BFL there is 10% unemployment right now (20%+ for college age workers), labor is cheap.

Agreed. BFL has simply bit off more than they could chew.

Scale [a] up to a 25Ghps mini-rig and you have 1875 BTC ($8750) in lost revenue during that 4-month waiting period. Essentially your $15k mini-rig now costs you 55% more, or $23k (almost as much as the original 50.4Ghps full Rig Box). They really need to bring the delay between ORDER and DELIVERY way down.

Even on the Singles, they are still working to ship their December orders. 4-6 weeks isn't bad, if only it were true.

Thats assuming you already have a way to get an $8750 return on your $15,000's over the next 4 months. Those kinds of returns are very few and associated with their own risks no doubt.
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March 24, 2012, 06:38:15 PM
 #117

Thats assuming you already have a way to get an $8750 return on your $15,000's over the next 4 months. Those kinds of returns are very few and associated with their own risks no doubt.

$15K in GPUs? Smiley
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March 24, 2012, 06:50:43 PM
 #118

Thats assuming you already have a way to get an $8750 return on your $15,000's over the next 4 months. Those kinds of returns are very few and associated with their own risks no doubt.

$15K in GPUs? Smiley

Surely no one is saying that they can get 25Gh of GPUs for $15k nor are they saying that they can have them up and running in a week, possibly even a month. From my own personal experience, it took more than 8 weeks to go from 5Gh to around 30Gh. And there are a lot of bumps in the road.

- waiting for newegg.com to get your packages to you because they don't deliver on Saturdays
- waiting for misc parts (powered risers, Dual GPU plugs, etc) that you happened to forget
- waiting on the electrician to get those 240v circuits you now need because you are pulling to many Kw
- figuring out (and spending money on) getting all of that heat out of the space all these GPUs are running in
- testing GPUs to get the max Mh/s out of them without dying every hour.
- all the other stuff with operating system, mining software, USB keys failing

You would need to either have free data center space available at a drop of the hat or already have a pretty serious farm running (therefore already knowing where you fucked up the first time) to be able to get 25Gh up and running "quickly". Even then, it is not an easy task.

My point is, to wait 8 weeks for two rig boxes does not bother me in the least because I am not delusional enough to think that BFL should be perfect or that it's a cake walk to get more GPUs running.
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March 24, 2012, 06:54:43 PM
 #119

As someone who was an outspoken (and loud) critic of BFL I am convinced they aren't a "scam".  They masively overestimated their specs and timelines.  They also seem ill equipped to handle the non-tech portions of the demand they are facing.

IMHO the only real risks dealing w/ BFL are:
a) time risk.  800 MH/s miner earns ~15 BTC per month.  4 month delay = 60 BTC in lost revenue.
b) warranty risk.  If new orders take 12-16 weeks then how long will RMA take.
c) solvency risk. If company had a huge financial setback (say 1000 singles died under warranty) could they absorb that and continue to operate

basically the risks are the same as dealing with any small business where demand way outstrips productive capacity.  It would be smart for BFL to hire an business student (for next to nothing) to handle non-tech tasks like emails, order processing, releasing company statements, etc.

Psst BFL there is 10% unemployment right now (20%+ for college age workers), labor is cheap.


a) Regarding the Time risk, the delay was caused by changes in prototype, some Chinese holiday as
mentioned, and extended engineering to change the board from the Rev A (which you still can find its photos
on the Net). We're working very hard to reduce the delay to around 2 weeks for the singles and 4 weeks for Rigs
and Mini-Rigs.

b) Should it happen (which we haven't had any until today) That will be straight forward.

c) This solvency risk exists for everybody. Toyota is a very good example. We believe in our quality and
we won't ship until units behave as expected.


Good Luck


BF Labs Inc.  www.butterflylabs.com   -  Bitcoin Mining Hardware
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March 25, 2012, 01:03:21 AM
 #120


My point is, to wait 8 weeks for two rig boxes does not bother me in the least because I am not delusional enough to think that BFL should be perfect or that it's a cake walk to get more GPUs running.

If we had faith in their lead times this would all be moot...

Singles are taking 14-16 weeks now.  They are saying NOTHING publicly about what has happened and why we SHOULD believe their current claims on delivery.  As D&T said, they need a PR person in the worst way.

Rig Box is 12-15 weeks per Sonny (according to e-mail this week).  I fear it is closer to 20...  Sad

EDIT - Sent e-mail to Sonny on this topic and asking for confirmation on mini-rig.  Might as well ask these questions directly...

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