Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crash: Boeing 777 Crashed in Ukraine Near Russian Border

[Nemo1024]

State Dept. accuses Russia of firing artillery into Ukraine, refuses to provide any evidence
http://rt.com/usa/175388-state-department-briefing/

This an analysis of the Associated Press reporter's grilling of US state department.


By the way, demonisation of Russia and freedom fighters continues in the Western press. Here in Norway, despite the terror threats, the largest newspaper Aftenposten still managed to find prominent place to report twice that big bad separatists are hindering the search for more bodies, and that Putin is running Russian economy into a dead-end, with a sub-article that more sanctions are being imposed against Russians.
And they had a small article that more bodies and wreckage bit have been located.

Interesting... there is an article that the victims' mobiles respond in East-Ukraine, and that strangers answer the calls.
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/De-dodes-mobiler-blir-besvart-i-Ost-Ukraina-7646719.html

Now as everyone in Ukraine and Russia knows, the first thing that happens with a stolen phone, is that its SIM card is ditched and the phone is reset. And no sane thief would answer incoming calls on a stolen phone. Whoever was answering was interested in this becoming news.

[deisik]

State Dept. accuses Russia of firing artillery into Ukraine, refuses to provide any evidence
http://rt.com/usa/175388-state-department-briefing/

This an analysis of the Associated Press reporter's grilling of US state department.


By the way, demonisation of Russia and freedom fighters continues in the Western press. Here in Norway, despite the terror threats, the largest newspaper Aftenposten still managed to find prominent place to report twice that big bad separatists are hindering the search for more bodies, and that Putin is running Russian economy into a dead-end, with a sub-article that more sanctions are being imposed against Russians.
And they had a small article that more bodies and wreckage bit have been located.

Interesting... there is an article that the victims' mobiles respond in East-Ukraine, and that strangers answer the calls.
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/De-dodes-mobiler-blir-besvart-i-Ost-Ukraina-7646719.html

Now as everyone in Ukraine and Russia knows, the first thing that happens with a stolen phone, is that its SIM card is ditched and the phone is reset. And no sane thief would answer incoming calls on a stolen phone. Whoever was answering was interested in this becoming news.

It may just happen that no one was actually calling (or answering these calls) in the first place. And the whole story was made up...

[umair127]

That is the U.S.'s goal: To bring Ukraine into NATO and the EU.

It is better for Ukraine to be on good terms with both Russia and the West. Have an equal relationship with both groups. That is my opinion.

I didn't ask what your opinion of US goals were. I asked two specific questions: Why do you think that bringing the Ukraine into NATO would be good for the US strategically, and why don't you think it would be tremendously destabilizing for the region if they did?

That is not my opinion. I repeat: The U.S.'s goals are to bring Ukraine into NATO and closer to Europe and the EU. That is the U.S.'s goal. That is a fact. Therefore it is part of the U.S.'s strategic interest.

My opinion was stated as that Ukraine should stay out of NATO and the EU and have both a relationship with NATO/EU and Russia. That part was my opinion. The paragraph above states fact. This paragraph states opinion.

What you think is a fact may just be your assumption. Facts are confirmed through evidence. There is no such evidence that would undoubtedly confirm what you consider as "fact".

http://thehill.com/policy/internatio...k-to-join-nato

From The Hill:

McCain: Put Ukraine on track to join NATO

By Kevin Cirilli - 05/15/14 02:40 PM EDT

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) on Thursday said NATO should put Ukraine on a track for eventual membership and urged the U.S. to provide more military aid to Kiev.

“They want to be part of NATO,” said McCain at the New America Foundation's 2014 Conference. “There’s a long process, by the way. You don’t just accept membership. We could put them on a military assistance plan.

“We have military assistance plans with at least 50 countries. It would not be an earthshaking or new kind of thing to give these people some ability to defend themselves,” he added.

McCain has pushed for the administration to provide military help to Kiev to help it counter pro-Russian separatist groups in the east of the country.
At the conference, he said it was "shameful" that the U.S. had not provided more aid, noting that Ukrainian troops lacked body armor, night vision capability and other weapons.

"It would help the morale enormously," McCain said. "Believe me, at some point Ukraine will fight.

“The people of Ukraine have a long history of fighting for their independence and they’re not going to sit idly by and watch Vladimir Putin invade their country," he continued.

McCain mocked the Obama administration for instead sending meals, ready-to-eat.

"You can't make this story up: After a heated debate in the White House, the administration decided they would send MREs," McCain said. "But someone said, 'Well, we don't want to fly them in U.S. aircraft because that might provoke Vladimir Putin.' So we leased German trucks to take the MREs in."

"I think now we should call it MRE diplomacy," McCain joked.

Your first article doesn't even mention NATO.

The second one is an interview with the guy that lost the presidential election in 2008. As expected, you have nothing to back up your bare assertion. Now how about trying to narrow in on Obama's comments and policy declarations on it.

[zolace]

Both Senator John McCain and President Barack Obama have stated to the effect of that it is up to the people of Ukraine to decide. These statements were made usually after they were told that most Ukrainians want to join the EU and NATO.

[Nemo1024]

This is getting interesting. Looks like a pretext for intervention that is MH-17 has worked:

Armed Australian police to deploy to MH17 crash site
http://rt.com/news/175444-armed-police-ukraine-mh17/

A multinational force that has been proposed to further secure the MH17 crash site in eastern Ukraine will now include some 100 armed Australian police personnel, shortly after 40 unarmed Dutchmen had been deployed to “further stabilize the area.”

At the time, the Dutch PM refused to comment on whether the Netherlands and Australia are in talks to draft a new UN Security Council resolution to allow armed personnel into Ukraine. This appears to be changing.

Meanwhile the flight recorders, transported to a UK lab, have been unsealed and their memory copied for analysis. The inspection revealed no evidence of tampering with the devices, which may be crucial for investigation, the Interstate Aviation Committee reported on Friday, an international body tasked with investigating all civil aviation incidents in most of former Soviet Union.

[TheIrishman]

MH17: Australia and Netherlands join renewed push to secure crash site

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/25/australia-netherlands-push-secure-mh17-crash-site

<< Australian police sent to London anticipating access to crash site, while locals are allegedly looting items from wreckage. >>

[Nemo1024]

Ukrainian Air Defense Exercises Might be Behind Malaysian Aircraft Crash – Source
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140725/191242509/Ukrainian-Air-Defense-Exercises-Might-be-Behind-Malaysian.html

MOSCOW, July 25 (RIA Novosti) – A system mix up during a Ukrainian air defense units’ rocket launch exercise could be the cause of the Malaysia Airlines crash in southeast Ukraine, a source from one of the Ukrainian defense departments told RIA Novosti.

“On July 17 the commanding officer of 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment was instructed to conduct a training exercise of ground troops stationed near Donetsk, which involved deploying the troops, and carrying out a routine tracking and destroying of targets with the Buk-M1 missile,” the source said.

The source added that the actual launch of the rockets was not intended.

Two Sukhoi Su-25 combat aircraft on a reconnaissance mission participated in the exercise. It is likely at some point, the routes of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 and a Su-25 jet overlapped. Despite flying at different levels, they became a single dot on the radar of the missile system. Of the two, the system automatically chose a larger target.

The reasons for the actual missile launch taking place remain unknown and are still under investigation, as practical exercises with the Buk missiles has been prohibited since 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 passenger airplane en route from Novosibirsk to Tel Aviv was shot down by the Ukrainian military.

[tee-rex]

Ukrainian Air Defense Exercises Might be Behind Malaysian Aircraft Crash – Source
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140725/191242509/Ukrainian-Air-Defense-Exercises-Might-be-Behind-Malaysian.html

MOSCOW, July 25 (RIA Novosti) – A system mix up during a Ukrainian air defense units’ rocket launch exercise could be the cause of the Malaysia Airlines crash in southeast Ukraine, a source from one of the Ukrainian defense departments told RIA Novosti.

“On July 17 the commanding officer of 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment was instructed to conduct a training exercise of ground troops stationed near Donetsk, which involved deploying the troops, and carrying out a routine tracking and destroying of targets with the Buk-M1 missile,” the source said.

The source added that the actual launch of the rockets was not intended.

Two Sukhoi Su-25 combat aircraft on a reconnaissance mission participated in the exercise. It is likely at some point, the routes of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 and a Su-25 jet overlapped. Despite flying at different levels, they became a single dot on the radar of the missile system. Of the two, the system automatically chose a larger target.

The reasons for the actual missile launch taking place remain unknown and are still under investigation, as practical exercises with the Buk missiles has been prohibited since 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 airplane en route from Novosibirsk to Tel Aviv was shot down by the Ukrainian military.

This still doesn't throw much light as to why no one saw the trail of smoke that a Buk-M1 missile leaves behind after launch. And it is not clear either why Ukraine has not been forbidden to have such systems after that accident with the Russian TU-154 airliner shot down in 2001. Thank God that nuclear weapons have been taken from them.

[Tusk]

Another point that is continually by the mass media/hysteria is about access to the site, they keep harping on about it giving the perception that they being blocked, yet we have seen many instances where journalists and investigators from Malaysia Airlines are already there. IMO Its subtle mind control to divert how far behind the curve they themselves are

[tee-rex]

What about the black boxes? Is there any info that might have leaked out about their contents and the fate of the MH17 since they had been taken to the Netherlands? Didn't hear anything new about them so far.

[Nemo1024]

What about the black boxes? Is there any info that might have leaked out about their contents and the fate of the MH17 since they had been taken to the Netherlands? Didn't hear anything new about them so far.

Netherlands delivered them to UK for decoding. And UK is the main cheerleader of US' bashing of Russia, so no much hope for getting the truth from now on. Malaysia is under pressure from the West to start condemning Russia, but are holding out and remain level-headed in their statements.

[Rannasha]

Ukrainian Air Defense Exercises Might be Behind Malaysian Aircraft Crash – Source
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140725/191242509/Ukrainian-Air-Defense-Exercises-Might-be-Behind-Malaysian.html

MOSCOW, July 25 (RIA Novosti) – A system mix up during a Ukrainian air defense units’ rocket launch exercise could be the cause of the Malaysia Airlines crash in southeast Ukraine, a source from one of the Ukrainian defense departments told RIA Novosti.

“On July 17 the commanding officer of 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment was instructed to conduct a training exercise of ground troops stationed near Donetsk, which involved deploying the troops, and carrying out a routine tracking and destroying of targets with the Buk-M1 missile,” the source said.

The source added that the actual launch of the rockets was not intended.

Two Sukhoi Su-25 combat aircraft on a reconnaissance mission participated in the exercise. It is likely at some point, the routes of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 and a Su-25 jet overlapped. Despite flying at different levels, they became a single dot on the radar of the missile system. Of the two, the system automatically chose a larger target.

The reasons for the actual missile launch taking place remain unknown and are still under investigation, as practical exercises with the Buk missiles has been prohibited since 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 passenger airplane en route from Novosibirsk to Tel Aviv was shot down by the Ukrainian military.

This article suggests that the MH17 crash was due to Ukraine doing a military exercise with their SAM launchers in the Donetsk area. Which is pretty silly. Donetsk is in the heart of the area controlled by separatists. Why on earth have your military conduct surface-to-air missile exercises right at your enemies doorstep, an enemy that doesn't even have any air presence. The notion of conducting such an exercise, one that is irrelevant to the current conflict practically in the combat zone is absurd.

It's funny how Russian media keeps spinning new tales. It's a classic media tactic, throw out enough different stories that eventually the target audience (primarily the Russian people) won't know what to believe anymore and will doubt anything, including the truth.

[tee-rex]

What about the black boxes? Is there any info that might have leaked out about their contents and the fate of the MH17 since they had been taken to the Netherlands? Didn't hear anything new about them so far.

Netherlands delivered them to UK for decoding. And UK is the main cheerleader of US' bashing of Russia, so no much hope for getting the truth from now on. Malaysia is under pressure from the West to start condemning Russia, but are holding out and remain level-headed in their statements.

If I am not misinformed, an international group of experts (including Russian and Ukrainian experts) are inspecting the black boxes, so there is still hope that the truth will be established after all.

[BCEmporium]

And for the notice, the ones putting more pressure over EU are the former Soviet-ring states now EU members; Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and so on. Not USA or UK.
Don't know what the Russians did there, but those guys don't fancy Russia much.

[Nemo1024]

Ukrainian Air Defense Exercises Might be Behind Malaysian Aircraft Crash – Source
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140725/191242509/Ukrainian-Air-Defense-Exercises-Might-be-Behind-Malaysian.html

MOSCOW, July 25 (RIA Novosti) – A system mix up during a Ukrainian air defense units’ rocket launch exercise could be the cause of the Malaysia Airlines crash in southeast Ukraine, a source from one of the Ukrainian defense departments told RIA Novosti.

“On July 17 the commanding officer of 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment was instructed to conduct a training exercise of ground troops stationed near Donetsk, which involved deploying the troops, and carrying out a routine tracking and destroying of targets with the Buk-M1 missile,” the source said.

The source added that the actual launch of the rockets was not intended.

Two Sukhoi Su-25 combat aircraft on a reconnaissance mission participated in the exercise. It is likely at some point, the routes of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 and a Su-25 jet overlapped. Despite flying at different levels, they became a single dot on the radar of the missile system. Of the two, the system automatically chose a larger target.

The reasons for the actual missile launch taking place remain unknown and are still under investigation, as practical exercises with the Buk missiles has been prohibited since 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 passenger airplane en route from Novosibirsk to Tel Aviv was shot down by the Ukrainian military.

This article suggests that the MH17 crash was due to Ukraine doing a military exercise with their SAM launchers in the Donetsk area. Which is pretty silly. Donetsk is in the heart of the area controlled by separatists. Why on earth have your military conduct surface-to-air missile exercises right at your enemies doorstep, an enemy that doesn't even have any air presence. The notion of conducting such an exercise, one that is irrelevant to the current conflict practically in the combat zone is absurd.

It's funny how Russian media keeps spinning new tales. It's a classic media tactic, throw out enough different stories that eventually the target audience (primarily the Russian people) won't know what to believe anymore and will doubt anything, including the truth.

Applies equally well to the Western audience and the way Western MSM work. Or should I say, Western MSM report a predefined blame story within seconds of an accident, without any proof, and then stick to that story regardless of what new evidence turns up?

As for "spinning new tales". It's called reporting new information as it becomes available. If you read the story carefully, it mainly benefits the Ukrainian government and their handlers in the USA. It gives Ukraine and USA a retreat route, writing it off as a regrettable accident. The information also comes from Ukraine, so I am taking it with a certain degree of scepticism.

[tee-rex]

Ukrainian Air Defense Exercises Might be Behind Malaysian Aircraft Crash – Source
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140725/191242509/Ukrainian-Air-Defense-Exercises-Might-be-Behind-Malaysian.html

MOSCOW, July 25 (RIA Novosti) – A system mix up during a Ukrainian air defense units’ rocket launch exercise could be the cause of the Malaysia Airlines crash in southeast Ukraine, a source from one of the Ukrainian defense departments told RIA Novosti.

“On July 17 the commanding officer of 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment was instructed to conduct a training exercise of ground troops stationed near Donetsk, which involved deploying the troops, and carrying out a routine tracking and destroying of targets with the Buk-M1 missile,” the source said.

The source added that the actual launch of the rockets was not intended.

Two Sukhoi Su-25 combat aircraft on a reconnaissance mission participated in the exercise. It is likely at some point, the routes of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 and a Su-25 jet overlapped. Despite flying at different levels, they became a single dot on the radar of the missile system. Of the two, the system automatically chose a larger target.

The reasons for the actual missile launch taking place remain unknown and are still under investigation, as practical exercises with the Buk missiles has been prohibited since 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 passenger airplane en route from Novosibirsk to Tel Aviv was shot down by the Ukrainian military.

This article suggests that the MH17 crash was due to Ukraine doing a military exercise with their SAM launchers in the Donetsk area. Which is pretty silly. Donetsk is in the heart of the area controlled by separatists. Why on earth have your military conduct surface-to-air missile exercises right at your enemies doorstep, an enemy that doesn't even have any air presence. The notion of conducting such an exercise, one that is irrelevant to the current conflict practically in the combat zone is absurd.

In fact, the militants over there captured a SU-25 attack plane and even managed to employ it at least once. So there is a reason behind military exercises with the SAM launchers in the Donetsk area by the Ukrainian air defense. Besides that, they may be getting ready to engage in combat with the Russian air force.

[needbmw]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/

Lot of photos from MH-17 crash site.

[Nemo1024]

And for the notice, the ones putting more pressure over EU are the former Soviet-ring states now EU members; Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and so on. Not USA or UK.
Don't know what the Russians did there, but those guys don't fancy Russia much.

Well, in Latvia and Lithuania USSR built a strong industrial and agricultural complex. These republics had the highest living standard in the whole of USSR, and even people from Moscow travelled to Riga or Vilnius as if to "the West". It's all gone now, of course. On the dark side, after the annexation of the Baltic states, Stalin did some forced peoples relocation, forcefully moving Latvians/Lithuanians to Russia and other Republics, and Russians to the Baltic republics, often giving only a couple hours to collect your belongings. Both peoples were victims.

[Nemo1024]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/

Lot of photos from MH-17 crash site.

This German journalist is thorough. Good.

[Rannasha]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/

Lot of photos from MH-17 crash site.

This German journalist is thorough. Good.

He's Dutch. Jeroen Akkermans works as a correspondent for the Dutch TV channel RTL. He's stationed in Germany, but also covering Eastern Europe.