No matter how much we love BTC, confirmations take way too long!

[Beliathon]

Yes but part of the appeal of crypto is you don't have to use payment processor.

If going to have the money flow through a third party anyway, why deal with the volatility?

Because volatility is temporary, while increasing value is permanent. For fiat scrip, decreasing value is permanent. I'll leave the math to you, detective.

Bitcoin hasn't been around long enough to determine if the increasing value is an intrinsic property of the currency.

It's a scarce resource, deflationary in nature. Of course it's an intrinsic property. One could've predicted that before Bitcoin was even launched if Satoshi described the limited nature of the currency.

In fact, the earliest big investors DID correctly predict that reality. Today we call those people "smart money", and many of them are "Bitcoin millionaires".

[AliceWonder]

It's only a scarce resource if adoption grows faster than coins supplied.

Adoption may not be what you expect if altcoins that fix some of the issues with bitcoin survive and supply the demand.

And without some of them surviving I don't think bitcoin will either.

[Kazimir]

<Reality check>
Merchants complete your sale 'almost instantly' with credit cards, and sometimes make you wait almost an hour when paying with BTC, which really does not work well in the real world....  better point of sale options are needed ASAP.

Sorry sir, that's complete and utter bullcrap. Over the past two years I have done many, many bitcoin payments in point of sale situations (shops, restaurants, pubs, markets, street vendors, you name it) and never, EVER did anyone request that I await even a single confirmation.

I reckon you just totally made up the the "sometimes make you wait almost an hour", right? Did you even ONCE, ever see anyone having to wait for 6 confirmations when paying with bitcoins?

Oh, and as for 'reality check', I run an online business. I'll tell you what reality is: paypal disputes, and chargebacks and credit card fraud. Having to wait for weeks or even months for your money, and still pay ridiculous fees. Getting all sorts of problems where customer from country X cannot pay on a website in country Y, because random bank restriction Z.

[Kazimir]

Is gold a deflationary resource, and has that been a problem during the past few thousand years? (that is, until central banks decided it would be more fun for them if they had the ability to create virtual money out of thin air)

[Meuh6879]

Sorry sir, that's complete and utter bullcrap. Over the past two years I have done many, many bitcoin payments in point of sale situations (shops, restaurants, pubs, markets, street vendors, you name it) and never, EVER did anyone request that I await even a single confirmation.

I reckon you just totally made up the the "sometimes make you wait almost an hour", right? Did you even ONCE, ever see anyone having to wait for 6 confirmations when paying with bitcoins?

Oh, and as for 'reality check', I run an online business. I'll tell you what reality is: paypal disputes, and chargebacks and credit card fraud. Having to wait for weeks or even months for your money, and still pay ridiculous fees. Getting all sorts of problems where customer from country X cannot pay on a website in country Y, because random bank restriction Z.

really, really true.
If you receive the transaction on the device, it's done ... because transaction is transmit from "at most" 4 nodes.

[gerXhonza]

Merchants just have to learn use Bitcoin, most purchases can be accepted with 0 confirmations and simply the order automatically cancelled if not getting confirmation later or doublespend.

It will take some time and competetion before 0 confirmations will be widely accepted, and for rare situations with instant services with a lot of money in risk if doublespend like dice sites, 1 confirmation is more than enought for such secured Bitcoin by insane hashpower

[AliceWonder]

Merchants just have to learn use Bitcoin, most purchases can be accepted with 0 confirmations and simply the order automatically cancelled if not getting confirmation later or doublespend.

It will take some time and competetion before 0 confirmations will be widely accepted, and for rare situations with instant services with a lot of money in risk if doublespend like dice sites, 1 confirmation is more than enought for such secured Bitcoin by insane hashpower

The problem isn't websites, bitcoin is fine for *almost* every type of web purchase.

[gtraah]

Yes but part of the appeal of crypto is you don't have to use payment processor.

If going to have the money flow through a third party anyway, why deal with the volatility?

Because volatility is temporary, while increasing value is permanent. For fiat scrip, decreasing value is permanent. I'll leave the math to you, detective.

Joe empties his phone. Sends half a btc to his phone as dust inputs. Goes to Raley's, all his inputs are dust resulting in a very large kb transaction of fresh dust - which he doesn't pay a fee on. When will the transaction be confirmed?

Meanwhile his shell script detects the spend, waits for two failed confirmations (at which point Joe is long gone) and then double spends them with a transaction fee.

Miners see the transaction with a fee and confirm it. Didn't cost Joe anything, worst case scenario is some miner confirms the first spend and he pays for his groceries. Normal scenario, he's already in his car by the time the next block happens and long gone by the time the grocer sees 2 blocks w/o a confirm.

wouldn't it be fairly easy for a merchant wallet to check for this type of thing.  If any of the above scenarios are true, then the customer would have to wait for full confirmation.  Basically, wait 10 seconds, have the merchant wallet check for double spends.  10 seconds is enough of a head start that the first transaction should be propagated to enough of the network to make double spending unpractical.

Satoshi addressed this here. Are there any flaws in his plan?:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423.msg3819#msg3819

So what happened to Satoshis theory As this person stated?



Satoshi's comment PASTED IN HERE  VV  
*********************
I believe it'll be possible for a payment processing company to provide as a service the rapid distribution of transactions with good-enough checking in something like 10 seconds or less.

The network nodes only accept the first version of a transaction they receive to incorporate into the block they're trying to generate.  When you broadcast a transaction, if someone else broadcasts a double-spend at the same time, it's a race to propagate to the most nodes first.  If one has a slight head start, it'll geometrically spread through the network faster and get most of the nodes.

A rough back-of-the-envelope example:
1         0
4         1
16        4
64        16
80%      20%

So if a double-spend has to wait even a second, it has a huge disadvantage.

The payment processor has connections with many nodes.  When it gets a transaction, it blasts it out, and at the same time monitors the network for double-spends.  If it receives a double-spend on any of its many listening nodes, then it alerts that the transaction is bad.  A double-spent transaction wouldn't get very far without one of the listeners hearing it.  The double-spender would have to wait until the listening phase is over, but by then, the payment processor's broadcast has reached most nodes, or is so far ahead in propagating that the double-spender has no hope of grabbing a significant percentage of the remaining nodes.
 **********************************


Or is this what payment processors do already and we are talking about something quicker here?

Just curious has anyone looked at the other coins, and why are some stating HIGH security even more than BTC or same + MUCH faster transaction times... I just don't get it, cant we just implement the same thing? Many test coins around.

[Kazimir]

Or is this what payment processors do already and we are talking about something quicker here?

Roughly spoken, yes they do this already. They scan for any incoming payments, and when they see one, they try to detect any conflicting payments (double spend attempts). If that doesn't occur for a few seconds, they assume it's safe to accept the transaction.

There's a lot of theoretical debate around this (especially involving mining pools running customized software, such as Eligius and BitUndo) but in every day practice this turns out to work extremely well and very secure.
 

Just curious has anyone looked at the other coins, and why are some stating HIGH security even more than BTC or same + MUCH faster transaction times... I just don't get it, cant we just implement the same thing? Many test coins around.

No, no, NO! A common misconception.
 
1. Other coins do NOT have faster transaction times. Bitcoin's P2P network is by far the biggest, and (unlike centralized models and networks) the more nodes and connections, the faster it distributes data. Bitcoin transactions are faster than any other coin.
 
2. Other coins also do NOT have faster confirmation times when measuring certainty against waiting time (i.e. the only thing that really matters). People confuse certainty (probability that a transactions remains final) with the number of blocks that include the transaction, without taking into account how much processing is actually required to find such one block. Yes, the more blocks a transaction, the higher its certainty, but Bitcoin provides MUCH more certainty per block than other coins.

For example, Litecoin has 4x faster blocks (every 2.5 minutes instead of 10). This means the average calculation time to find a block is 4x less. This also means it's 4x easier to 'undo' a block (mine an alternative block to fork the blockchain). This means 1 Bitcoin block would offer the same amount of certainty as 4 Litecoins blocks! And that still only holds when Bitcoin and Litecoin networks would have equal hashing power. But that's not the case: Bitcoin's total hashing power is MUCH more than Litecoin's or even all other coins combined. So in fact, one Bitcoin block provides even MUCH more security than 4 Litecoin blocks!
 
 
TL;DR = Bitcoin wins.
 
 

[BADecker]

As technology increases, confirmations will get faster and faster. The important thing about this is that Bitcoin confirmations will rapidly outpace the speed with which fiat confirmations are achieved.

[Kazimir]

The important thing about this is that Bitcoin confirmations will rapidly outpace the speed with which fiat confirmations are achieved.

'will' outpace? it has already done so, over 5 years ago

[BADecker]

The important thing about this is that Bitcoin confirmations will rapidly outpace the speed with which fiat confirmations are achieved.

'will' outpace? it has already done so, over 5 years ago

In some ways, yes. Yet a fiat transaction at an ATM is done in seconds, with a receipt that shows your balance. It still takes Bitcoin a few minutes, usually, for confirmation.

[Meuh6879]

Or is this what payment processors do already and we are talking about something quicker here?

Just curious has anyone looked at the other coins, and why are some stating HIGH security even more than BTC or same + MUCH faster transaction times... I just don't get it, cant we just implement the same thing? Many test coins around.

here is a debuglog of what a bitcoin core work on "delete" transactions :

Code:

2014-07-29 09:30:12 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
2014-07-29 09:30:55 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:31:05 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:31:20 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:31:24 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:31:24 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:31:25 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:31:39 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:31:46 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:31:46 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:31:48 CreateNewBlock(): total size 99106
2014-07-29 09:32:02 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:32:02 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:32:02 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:33:46 CreateNewBlock(): total size 131690
2014-07-29 09:35:44 CreateNewBlock(): total size 161717
2014-07-29 09:37:43 CreateNewBlock(): total size 196154
2014-07-29 09:39:41 CreateNewBlock(): total size 211865
2014-07-29 09:41:32 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:41:40 CreateNewBlock(): total size 239880
2014-07-29 09:42:30 ERROR: CheckTransaction() : vin empty
2014-07-29 09:42:30 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool: : CheckTransaction failed
2014-07-29 09:42:30 Misbehaving: 71.178.202.104:8333 (80 -> 90)
2014-07-29 09:43:38 CreateNewBlock(): total size 261242
2014-07-29 09:45:36 CreateNewBlock(): total size 289249
2014-07-29 09:47:35 CreateNewBlock(): total size 338067
2014-07-29 09:49:34 CreateNewBlock(): total size 373584
2014-07-29 09:51:32 CreateNewBlock(): total size 404839
2014-07-29 09:53:31 CreateNewBlock(): total size 427018
2014-07-29 09:55:29 CreateNewBlock(): total size 453724
2014-07-29 09:56:03 UpdateTip: new best=0000000000000000379b31f0c2b745a8b3fb4d084eac96cfe02ae32e29c92f0d  height=312992  log2_work=79.944163  tx=43440030  date=2014-07-29 09:55:48 progress=0.999999
2014-07-29 09:56:03 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
2014-07-29 09:56:39 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:57:03 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:57:11 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:57:14 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:57:27 CreateNewBlock(): total size 61321
2014-07-29 09:57:33 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:57:50 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:58:03 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:58:04 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:58:11 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:58:35 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:58:42 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 09:58:56 UpdateTip: new best=00000000000000002c1ef9a8ef203d3a491450dd024ccb06b799faaa3d29570e  height=312993  log2_work=79.944263  tx=43440159  date=2014-07-29 10:05:10 progress=1.000014
2014-07-29 09:58:56 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
2014-07-29 09:59:26 CreateNewBlock(): total size 46152
2014-07-29 10:01:06 socket recv error 10054
2014-07-29 10:01:07 receive version message: /Satoshi:0.9.2.1/: version 70002, blocks=312993, us=xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx, them=xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx, peer=xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
2014-07-29 10:01:07 Added time data, samples 149, offset -1 (+0 minutes)
2014-07-29 10:01:07 nTimeOffset = -5  (+0 minutes)
2014-07-29 10:01:16 CreateNewBlock(): total size 117645
2014-07-29 10:02:34 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 10:03:14 CreateNewBlock(): total size 145349
2014-07-29 10:05:12 CreateNewBlock(): total size 171276
2014-07-29 10:07:12 CreateNewBlock(): total size 192497
2014-07-29 10:09:11 CreateNewBlock(): total size 228770
2014-07-29 10:11:10 CreateNewBlock(): total size 257364
2014-07-29 10:13:08 CreateNewBlock(): total size 282218
2014-07-29 10:15:07 CreateNewBlock(): total size 313959
2014-07-29 10:16:32 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 10:17:05 CreateNewBlock(): total size 356696
2014-07-29 10:17:51 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-29 10:19:04 CreateNewBlock(): total size 388210
2014-07-29 10:21:02 CreateNewBlock(): total size 422098
2014-07-29 10:22:59 CreateNewBlock(): total size 441849
2014-07-29 10:24:57 CreateNewBlock(): total size 459116

Code:

2014-07-28 08:26:00 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
2014-07-28 08:27:50 CreateNewBlock(): total size 78518
2014-07-28 08:28:57 UpdateTip: new best=0000000000000000346b539255174aa3d853c28f754008291daa47be0ea08ffa  height=312826  log2_work=79.927496  tx=43372879  date=2014-07-28 08:28:39 progress=0.999999
2014-07-28 08:28:57 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
2014-07-28 08:29:09 ERROR: Non-canonical public key: compressed nor uncompressed
2014-07-28 08:29:09 ERROR: Non-canonical public key: invalid length for uncompressed key
2014-07-28 08:29:49 CreateNewBlock(): total size 59036
2014-07-28 08:30:18 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : inputs already spent
2014-07-28 08:31:47 CreateNewBlock(): total size 89773
2014-07-28 08:33:16 UpdateTip: new best=00000000000000000ab5d9559ad5a3889cf90308bab9bcc34c0627209d9d05f9  height=312827  log2_work=79.927597  tx=43373140  date=2014-07-28 08:33:20 progress=1.000000
2014-07-28 08:33:16 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED

Code:

2014-07-28 05:26:44 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
2014-07-28 05:27:31 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : inputs already spent
2014-07-28 05:28:31 CreateNewBlock(): total size 46639
2014-07-28 05:29:32 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : inputs already spent
2014-07-28 05:30:30 CreateNewBlock(): total size 152087
2014-07-28 05:32:29 CreateNewBlock(): total size 186420
2014-07-28 05:34:27 CreateNewBlock(): total size 269792
2014-07-28 05:36:26 CreateNewBlock(): total size 307482
2014-07-28 05:38:24 CreateNewBlock(): total size 332938
2014-07-28 05:40:23 CreateNewBlock(): total size 365066
2014-07-28 05:42:21 CreateNewBlock(): total size 393649
2014-07-28 05:44:13 UpdateTip: new best=00000000000000001f51a864cd4901fb2a285785019df2b78080df5595208c7d  height=312813  log2_work=79.926183  tx=43367284  date=2014-07-28 05:43:35 progress=0.999999
2014-07-28 05:44:13 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED

.
.
.
 

Code:

2014-07-28 03:14:07 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
2014-07-28 03:14:16 CreateNewBlock(): total size 30894
2014-07-28 03:16:14 CreateNewBlock(): total size 66751
2014-07-28 03:18:13 CreateNewBlock(): total size 116504
2014-07-28 03:18:35 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:18:35 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:18:40 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:18:48 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:18:55 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:12 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:12 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:12 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:12 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:12 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:16 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:17 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:36 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:41 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:41 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:41 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:42 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:42 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:48 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:55 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:55 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:55 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:55 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:55 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:55 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:56 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:19:59 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:20:00 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:20:02 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:20:02 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:20:12 CreateNewBlock(): total size 156178
2014-07-28 03:20:17 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: scriptsig-non-canonical-push
2014-07-28 03:20:30 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:20:44 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:06 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:06 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:06 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:06 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:07 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:07 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: scriptsig-non-canonical-push
2014-07-28 03:21:07 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:07 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:12 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:16 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:20 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:34 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:34 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:35 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:44 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:45 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:45 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:45 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:45 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:56 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:21:56 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:22:11 CreateNewBlock(): total size 203774
2014-07-28 03:22:16 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: scriptsig-non-canonical-push
2014-07-28 03:22:37 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:22:38 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:22:38 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
2014-07-28 03:22:43 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: scriptsig-non-canonical-push
2014-07-28 03:24:11 CreateNewBlock(): total size 239852
2014-07-28 03:26:10 CreateNewBlock(): total size 287654
2014-07-28 03:28:09 CreateNewBlock(): total size 319185
2014-07-28 03:28:55 UpdateTip: new best=0000000000000000353800ec6a8598f836d27836d724c9b22355d111a316ecf5  height=312798  log2_work=79.924666  tx=43362413  date=2014-07-28 03:28:31 progress=0.999999
2014-07-28 03:28:55 ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED

[Meuh6879]

  almost 6 connexions per second ... in this last debuglog.
at this time with bitcoin core ... you can't emit double-spending.

corrupted pool can ... to his clients only (reward payment for mining job).

[giveBTCpls]

This is a legitimate complain that my friends also make. But what they don't get tho, is the fact credit card opperations don't get confirmed instantly per se and no one ever questions credit card operations. At least with Bitcoin you can keep track of your operations in an open source fashion (blockchain). With credit cards you are just trusting they don't fuck shit up.

[Whitehouse]

This is a legitimate complain that my friends also make. But what they don't get tho, is the fact credit card opperations don't get confirmed instantly per se and no one ever questions credit card operations. At least with Bitcoin you can keep track of your operations in an open source fashion (blockchain). With credit cards you are just trusting they don't fuck shit up.

Just explain to them that credit card companies are payment processors and bitcoin uses payment processors with merchants anyway, so there's not much difference here except bitcoins are both faster and cheaper.

[mysidia]

So a merchant would generally only wait for confirmations for large transactions. For small transactions it is enough to detect the transaction is in the network, i.e. more or less instant.

I have yet to see or hear of a merchant that doesn't require a minimum of at least 1 confirmation.    In theory,  it might not be needed,  at least if there is a sufficient transaction fee  to prioritize it.

However,  I believe  the merchants/processors are all practicing CYA / "better safe than sorry,"  and  requiring a minimum of   1 confirm,  for even the smallest transaction,  and  larger transactions/operaations generally requiring 4 or more confirms.

Perhaps in the future,  buyers will acquire some sort of  insurance card or  "performance bond"  requiring a small deposit with a trusted third party  reputation service  to demonstrate to the merchant    who will   publish the buyer's  "Wallet Address"  in a merchant-accessible database of bonded addresses.

And the merchant will treat payments from listed addresses as immediately confirmed, based on their reputation.

However if the buyer double spends in less than 48 hours,  and the merchant   can later demonstrate that   they were given a signed transaction  which not get confirmed, by submitting a copy;   the buyer will be alerted  and given a short time to settle up.

E.g.  5 days  to replace the double spent transaction  before their reputation status is suspended, deposit is taken to pay the merchant,  and they get a bill in the mail  in the amount of an agreed upon "penalty".

[mysidia]

It's a scarce resource, deflationary in nature. Of course it's an intrinsic property. One could've predicted that before Bitcoin was even launched if Satoshi described the limited nature of the currency.

In fact, the earliest big investors DID correctly predict that reality. Today we call those people "smart money", and many of them are "Bitcoin millionaires".

They took a risk;  it appeared most probable at that time that a BTC would eventually be worth $0.   It is not a fundamental law that Bitcoin is deflationary.

In fact... right now;  it is inflationary  in the sense that new Bitcoins are still being added to the system.

Just because the supply is limited does not mean it will be deflationary, however.
This depends on the amount of economic activity, with regards to BTC changing hands,  which affects the supply and demand of BTCs.


I would like to point out  ---  that  not even 10 million  actual BTCs necessarily have to exist to support an annual GDP   of  10 billion BTC,   as long as  only consumers are using them and  merchants are not holding the BTCs;   the BTCs get sold right back to the exchanges,  and effectively, the exchanges eventually start working like central banks...

[Jace]

I have yet to see or hear of a merchant that doesn't require a minimum of at least 1 confirmation.    In theory,  it might not be needed,  at least if there is a sufficient transaction fee  to prioritize it.

However,  I believe  the merchants/processors are all practicing CYA / "better safe than sorry,"  and  requiring a minimum of   1 confirm,  for even the smallest transaction,  and  larger transactions/operaations generally requiring 4 or more confirms.

Are you kidding? For example here in Arnhem, there are plenty of places that accept Bitcoin, and *none* of them requires waiting for any confirmations.

Doesn't matter whether you pay for a cup of coffee, or hundreds of euros for a family dinner in a restaurant. Instant payment, NO confirmations needed whatsoever. That's the ones accepting Bitcoin directly, as well as the ones using a payment provider.

So far, thousands of euros worth of bitcoins has been spent, and exactly ZERO cents have been at risk / charged back / double spent.

[Kazimir]

This is a legitimate complain that my friends also make.

No it's not. Really, the complaint is simply not legitimate. Let them point out just ONE situation where paying with bitcoins requires you to wait for a confirmation. This 'problem' exists only in their imagination.