Observations on prayers and miracles?

[ensurance982]

My stance on this is similar to the tarot cards! I don't think prayers can actually do anything and miracles are just coincidences at best, which haven't been observed well enough by some people who then claim that something supernatural (or even heavenly intervention) has occurred!

[zolace]

Talking about fantastical examples of magic that have never happened and will never happen when discussing evidence of god is about as pointless an exercise as you can imagine....and ....you can imagine a whole slew of pointless exercises. Rather than discussing imaginary made up crazy shit that might make us think god is real....I have a novel idea. Why not discuss actual evidence that indicates God is real?

See, that last post might have some credibility if you had answered the last question.

So again, give an example of below - apparently if there are lots of things, something comes to mind.

Lots of things could occur that would make me believe in God

[Rigon]

Talking about fantastical examples of magic that have never happened and will never happen when discussing evidence of god is about as pointless an exercise as you can imagine....and ....you can imagine a whole slew of pointless exercises. Rather than discussing imaginary made up crazy shit that might make us think god is real....I have a novel idea. Why not discuss actual evidence that indicates God is real?

See, that last post might have some credibility if you had answered the last question.

So again, give an example of below - apparently if there are lots of things, something comes to mind.

Lots of things could occur that would make me believe in God

I repeat........ making a list of fairy tale magic events that would have to occur to prove god exists, like a bearded man floating down from the sky and telling me he is god and taking me to heaven to see my grandmother, is a complete waste of an effort.  What the fuck purpose does it serve you to get me to make up fantastic bullshit magical evidences that don't exist and will never exist? 

[zolace]

Talking about fantastical examples of magic that have never happened and will never happen when discussing evidence of god is about as pointless an exercise as you can imagine....and ....you can imagine a whole slew of pointless exercises. Rather than discussing imaginary made up crazy shit that might make us think god is real....I have a novel idea. Why not discuss actual evidence that indicates God is real?

See, that last post might have some credibility if you had answered the last question.

So again, give an example of below - apparently if there are lots of things, something comes to mind.

Lots of things could occur that would make me believe in God

I repeat........ making a list of fairy tale magic events that would have to occur to prove god exists, like a bearded man floating down from the sky and telling me he is god and taking me to heaven to see my grandmother, is a complete waste of an effort.  What the fuck purpose does it serve you to get me to make up fantastic bullshit magical evidences that don't exist and will never exist? 

Well, you might read Revelation chapter 6 some time.   I am going to make this clearer, as, when you replied, you did not touch upon all aspects, etc

1.You are walking in the woods, hiking, enjoying nature, and you come across someone you know, but dead.

2.You are able to determine that the body has been dead and decomposing for about 10 days.

3.Pieces of it are dismembered - for example, the right arm is 50 feet away.

4.And, no technology around.  You are not in a lab.  You may be carrying your cell phone, IPAD, but, personal stuff.

5.And while you are looking at this body, before your very eyes, this person rises immediately, whole and alive again.  His arm from 50 feet away is not re-attached to his body.  He is well, and he knows you, just as you knew him.


You feel the most logical explanation for this is tissue reanimation or cloning under these circumstances?  I have that right?

[Rigon]

Talking about fantastical examples of magic that have never happened and will never happen when discussing evidence of god is about as pointless an exercise as you can imagine....and ....you can imagine a whole slew of pointless exercises. Rather than discussing imaginary made up crazy shit that might make us think god is real....I have a novel idea. Why not discuss actual evidence that indicates God is real?

See, that last post might have some credibility if you had answered the last question.

So again, give an example of below - apparently if there are lots of things, something comes to mind.

Lots of things could occur that would make me believe in God

I repeat........ making a list of fairy tale magic events that would have to occur to prove god exists, like a bearded man floating down from the sky and telling me he is god and taking me to heaven to see my grandmother, is a complete waste of an effort.  What the fuck purpose does it serve you to get me to make up fantastic bullshit magical evidences that don't exist and will never exist? 

Well, you might read Revelation chapter 6 some time.   I am going to make this clearer, as, when you replied, you did not touch upon all aspects, etc

1.You are walking in the woods, hiking, enjoying nature, and you come across someone you know, but dead.

2.You are able to determine that the body has been dead and decomposing for about 10 days.

3.Pieces of it are dismembered - for example, the right arm is 50 feet away.

4.And, no technology around.  You are not in a lab.  You may be carrying your cell phone, IPAD, but, personal stuff.

5.And while you are looking at this body, before your very eyes, this person rises immediately, whole and alive again.  His arm from 50 feet away is not re-attached to his body.  He is well, and he knows you, just as you knew him.


You feel the most logical explanation for this is tissue reanimation or cloning under these circumstances?  I have that right?

I already stated that something fantastical could be evidence of god, even though our lack of knowledge how something works has never been evidence of god in the past.  But there is no evidence that what you describe  ever happened despite your tossing out Revelations as a technical citation.  So..... talking about fantastical bullshit that never happened is really a waste of time.  I have asked you now more than ten times....if you think there is evidence of god.....tell me what it is.

Recall   Evidence = body of facts proving something true.  So even if we saw a dead rotting guy who was later alive, this is just as much evidence for a god-like doctor, some other miracle than God, or (insert your own fantastical explanation here). 

[Green90]

OP i disagree with you. This picture should explain you everything.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QfthOp9g7Uo/UdJkll9dMDI/AAAAAAAAAnQ/5PtlT8eWbxA/s1600/YIN-YA~1.JPG

[zolace]

Ok then, rewording this, since you say you have answered such, and perhaps I misunderstood.  To clarify:

If the following was to happen, all 5 points below, you agree that the most logical explanation would be that something supernatural happened.  I have that correct?

1.You are walking in the woods, hiking, enjoying nature, and you come across someone you know, but dead.

2.You are able to determine that the body has been dead and decomposing for about 10 days.

3.Pieces of it are dismembered - for example, the right arm is 50 feet away.

4.And, no technology around. You are not in a lab. You may be carrying your cell phone, IPAD, but, personal stuff.

5.And while you are looking at this body, before your very eyes, this person rises immediately, whole and alive again. His arm from 50 feet away is not re-attached to his body. He is well, and he knows you, just as you knew him.

[zolace]

OP i disagree with you. This picture should explain you everything.

yeah,with  every bad thing there is a good side,but with every good thing there is a bad side

[noviapriani]

There does not seem to be any disagreement about what is or is not supernatural.
Even zolace has a grasp of the situation.... hence the problem....

It's like different people with different mind-set looking at the same object in the sky and wondering....

"Is it an ET ?"
"Is it some ultra-secret military aircraft?"
"Is it some other natural occurance thet we don't understand?"

Within the limitations of the data, 1 person, or 1000 persons will not see the same object the same way, and will process the data the way they are taught to do.

zolace...
There is no need for "What If...?" scenerios. You only use them because you believe you are contributing something "intellectual", when in fact you are just looking stupid.

"What if I took a  tour of NY City riding on the back of a winged pig!!""

THAT!!! Would be supernatural.

zolace-
Everyone here has a firm understanding of the power of prayer and miracles, with the exception of you, zolace.
"One white crow is evedince that not all crows are black."
 
All that if required of you is provide JUST ONE example of your "creator".

[Rigon]

Ok then, rewording this, since you say you have answered such, and perhaps I misunderstood.  To clarify:

If the following was to happen, all 5 points below, you agree that the most logical explanation would be that something supernatural happened.  I have that correct?

1.You are walking in the woods, hiking, enjoying nature, and you come across someone you know, but dead.

2.You are able to determine that the body has been dead and decomposing for about 10 days.

3.Pieces of it are dismembered - for example, the right arm is 50 feet away.

4.And, no technology around. You are not in a lab. You may be carrying your cell phone, IPAD, but, personal stuff.

5.And while you are looking at this body, before your very eyes, this person rises immediately, whole and alive again. His arm from 50 feet away is not re-attached to his body. He is well, and he knows you, just as you knew him.

what if a T-Rex danced on the head of a pin?  Aren't you dying to know if I would believe in God if that happened?

Driver:  Ive been asking him the same question......why waste your time pondering what-ifs and just spill the beans on the evidence you believe you have?  We both know he will NEVER list any evidence other than "what-if"

[zolace]

There does not seem to be any disagreement about what is or is not supernatural.
Even zolace has a grasp of the situation.... hence the problem....

It's like different people with different mind-set looking at the same object in the sky and wondering....

"Is it an ET ?"
"Is it some ultra-secret military aircraft?"
"Is it some other natural occurance thet we don't understand?"

Within the limitations of the data, 1 person, or 1000 persons will not see the same object the same way, and will process the data the way they are taught to do.

zolace...
There is no need for "What If...?" scenerios. You only use them because you believe you are contributing something "intellectual", when in fact you are just looking stupid.

"What if I took a  tour of NY City riding on the back of a winged pig!!""

THAT!!! Would be supernatural.

zolace-
Everyone here has a firm understanding of the power of prayer and miracles, with the exception of you, zolace.
"One white crow is evedince that not all crows are black."
 
All that if required of you is provide JUST ONE example of your "creator".

Well, since rigon agrees (apparently) that the above would count as evidence for supernaturally evidence, just to bring you up to speed,, I wanted an idea of what it would take to rise to the level of evidence.  How high the bar.

Now, the bar may even be lower - but, the above example has ruled out the bar being higher for rigon.

[noviapriani]

To reiterrate...

We (including you, zolace) seems to have no problem with what is supernatural when we see it.
The only person with issues is you, zolace.  Your problem is that, YOU want to see the "supernatural" in everything.  You are like the die-hard UFO enthusist who sees blinking light in the night sky and thinks ET, and ignores the fact that it's just an airplane.

Your issues run even deeper, zolace.....
Even if you can ever demonstrate the "supernatural", you still have a long row to how proving divine intervention.

[Rigon]

Sigh.  No.   I repeat for the 12th time.      I have said it remains more logical to believe a miracle of modern medicine or cloning than to believe a magical god did it.  I also said there are fantastical things that I could imagine that would make me consider supernatural.  However, pondering nonsense that has never occurred is a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME.

Now before you ever respond to me in this thread again I want you to repost what I said above and indicate you understand that is my position.

Can you do that?

[noviapriani]

Sigh.  No.   I repeat for the 12th time.      I have said it remains more logical to believe a miracle of modern medicine or cloning than to believe a magical god did it.  I also said there are fantastical things that I could imagine that would make me consider supernatural.  However, pondering nonsense that has never occurred is a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME.

Now before you ever respond to me in this thread again I want you to repost what I said above and indicate you understand that is my position.

Can you do that?

I guess zolace is going to be like a rat terrier and rag this stupid thing until someone pays attention to him, and I don't think I'm doing anyone any favors by paying attention to him, but.....

What you are basically describing in the above is a situation that is impossible. But for the sake of argument let's say it happened...

Great! You have a fine example of the supernatural.  That's all well & good, but it is not proof of your "creator".  While 'divine intervention may be supernatural, the supernatural is not proof of divine intervention.  It doesn't make your fairy tales true.

[Rigon]

Sigh.  No.   I repeat for the 12th time.      I have said it remains more logical to believe a miracle of modern medicine or cloning than to believe a magical god did it.  I also said there are fantastical things that I could imagine that would make me consider supernatural.  However, pondering nonsense that has never occurred is a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME.

Now before you ever respond to me in this thread again I want you to repost what I said above and indicate you understand that is my position.

Can you do that?

I guess zolace is going to be like a rat terrier and rag this stupid thing until someone pays attention to him, and I don't think I'm doing anyone any favors by paying attention to him, but.....

What you are basically describing in the above is a situation that is impossible. But for the sake of argument let's say it happened...

Great! You have a fine example of the supernatural.  That's all well & good, but it is not proof of your "creator".  While 'divine intervention may be supernatural, the supernatural is not proof of divine intervention.  It doesn't make your fairy tales true.

zolace is now adding details of limbs flying across the ground and reattaching before our very eyes.  You couldn't butcher intent any more if you tried zolace.  You can imagine all the supernatural what-ifs you like but several things are true.

1)  The "what-ifs" have never occurred.  There is no evidence of any "what-if" any of us have mentioned.
2)  If the "what-if's" did occur, they are no more evidence of your god as they are evidence of aliens (which is also a more mathematically plausible explanation than a supreme being).

Given these two truths......what is your point? 

[zolace]

 rigon,noviapriani
I have not added any details to the below scenario.   You may not have read them carefully, but, that is what I have been posting.  Look back.

So, there are two choices here as what is the most logical explanation.  It would best be explained by science, or via a supernatural explanation.

You have chosen science, above.  

1.You are walking in the woods, hiking, enjoying nature, and you come across someone you know, but dead.

2.You are able to determine that the body has been dead and decomposing for about 10 days.

3.Pieces of it are dismembered - for example, the right arm is 50 feet away.

4.And, no technology around. You are not in a lab. You may be carrying your cell phone, IPAD, but, personal stuff.

5.And while you are looking at this body, before your very eyes, this person rises immediately, whole and alive again. His arm from 50 feet away is not re-attached to his body. He is well, and he knows you, just as you knew him.

[noviapriani]

rigon,noviapriani
I have not added any details to the below scenario.   You may not have read them carefully, but, that is what I have been posting.  Look back.

So, there are two choices here as what is the most logical explanation.  It would best be explained by science, or via a supernatural explanation.

You have chosen science, above.  

1.You are walking in the woods, hiking, enjoying nature, and you come across someone you know, but dead.

2.You are able to determine that the body has been dead and decomposing for about 10 days.

3.Pieces of it are dismembered - for example, the right arm is 50 feet away.

4.And, no technology around. You are not in a lab. You may be carrying your cell phone, IPAD, but, personal stuff.

5.And while you are looking at this body, before your very eyes, this person rises immediately, whole and alive again. His arm from 50 feet away is not re-attached to his body. He is well, and he knows you, just as you knew him.

What if.....Thousands of Christians prayed for safety/salvation during a natrural disaster, and all died?

[Rigon]

If I may clear something up one last time.  Nearly any explanation, including advanced people from another race travelling here in UFOs and reconstructing a dead guy, is a more likely explanation than a supernatural magical being.  You call my explanation 'science".  I call it..anti-magic man.  Its not just science that is more likely than a magic man.  Everything is more likely than a magic man.  This does not mean a magic man does not exist, its just that everything else is more likely.

Is this FINALLY clear enough for you ,zolace?  Now that it has been cleared up for your very slow and dull-witted mind, what do you plan to do with this new information?    

[noviapriani]

It takes you months and hundreds of posts just to understand someone else's very simple position, and still you don't understand it.

Everything is possible zolace, it's a matter of probability.  It is simply more probable that some undiscovered or alien technology brought the person back to life in your fictional story above than an invisible magic man with supernatural powers.

[zolace]

It takes you months and hundreds of posts just to understand someone else's very simple position, and still you don't understand it.

Everything is possible zolace, it's a matter of probability.  It is simply more probable that some undiscovered or alien technology brought the person back to life in your fictional story above than an invisible magic man with supernatural powers.

And there lies in your problem - this dogma of yours.  That is superstition, my friend.  But, it is effective in keeping considerations of the Creator out of the picture, by raising the bar such that no matter what happens, you will find an explanation for it regardless how silly.

There is a test, however, you can do - anyone can - and let the chips fall where they will.