Pros and Cons to Anon coins, Including Darkcoin / Cloakcoin, lets discuss them.

[FreedomCoin]

It seems there is alot of argument of which coins are "better" though each have their pros and cons. One is more established, the other has some features promised with new technology. See below for the Pros and Cons i have found for each, if you can give me more to add to the list i will. But please provide sources to the information you are giving.

Cloakcoin:


Pros:

Trading volume is much higher around 3 times the amount. https://coinmarketcap.com/
Uses a architecture for anonymity. See PoSA, Point of Stake Anonymity. https://mega.co.nz/#!1c9UnKBI!BdEaoBuYDAr5F4nwltpYjYNOrZt7Jretk07eGc-oPDc
Cloaktrade: Working on an exchange system built into wallet using an API code from Bittrex. http://altcoinstrader.com/cloakcoin-cloak-announcements/
Has a feature of Stealth Addresses. http://sx.dyne.org/stealth.html
Plans on having a built in Marketplace on the wallet called OneMarket http://www.cryptoarticles.com/crypto-news/cloakcoin-development-update-onemarket-posa-oneledger-ciara

Cons:

Traded on fewer exchanges. http://bitinfocharts.com/darkcoin/
The developers are completely anonymous.
Cloakcoin ANN on Bitcointalk is self moderated, many critical comments have been deleted. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=637704.0
Very short mining period, Mining will stop after 10080 blocks (7 days). https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=637704.0

Dark Coin:


Pros:

Is more established, has been around since January 2014. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.0
Has a higher Market Cap of currently 20 Million dollars. https://coinmarketcap.com/
Very low bloat in the blockchain. http://wiki.darkcoin.eu/wiki/FAQ#Is_Darkcoin_going_to_implement_ring_signatures.3F
A higher network hashrate. http://bitinfocharts.com/darkcoin/
Is more commonly known in the crypto community and social media. http://topsy.com/analytics?q1=darkcoin&q2=cloakcoin&via=Topsy


Cons:


Was instamined over 2 million DRK on launch, due to only a few having access to the windows mining client and not publicly released for some time. And due to problems with the difficulty readjustment. http://wiki.darkcoin.eu/wiki/FAQ#Was_Darkcoin_Instamined.3F

XCurrency:


Pros:

Known dev team http://xc-official.com/the-xc-team/
Decentralised trustless Privacy in several layers, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=630547.0
Encrypted messaging XChat https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=630547.msg8119953#msg8119953
multi-path implementation that employs multi-sig to route fragments of transactions down separate paths through the network, compounding anonymity while adding redundancy and security http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/xcurrency-unveils-cryptographic-privacy-technology-wake-nsa-xkeyscore-outrage/2014/07/04

Cons:


Premine of 125k (2.27% of all coins to exist in the form of a premine) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=630547.18800
ANN on Bitcointalk is also self moderated (after unmoderated thread turned into a fud fest, so requested by community) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=630547.0

Supercoin:


Pros:

Supersend feature http://cryptocoins.co/supercoin-supersend-feature
POS superblocks http://cointelegraph.com/news/112195/supercoin-a-trustless-decentralized-anonymous-p2p-network

Cons:

Supersend based on Coinjoin www.super-coin.net/SuperSend.pdf

[1715192935]

1715192935

[numisma]

Hello,

just wanted to point out that, speaking from experiences, that volume comes and goes. Be aware of that, all these breathtaking coins had volume at some point, rising the price up, then it just vanishes! But take into the consideration the amount of volume throo a longer period, which DRK has.

-N.

[FreedomCoin]

I think the reason volume is up for Cloak at the moment is due to the bullish market.. alot of people buying and holding. Verses Darkcoin is going down in price and people are just holding, or occasionally buying up at lower prices.. If you could short Darkcoins i am sure the volume would increase.

[numisma]

I agree with both your statements. (I think I saw one more comment?)

From my point of view, I always check the very top or the peak of the "pump", if I can express myself like that. And I always like to see where's the bottom or where is the "base", where people would rather hold then sell. And at the moment, we can't see these details from Cloak, but DRK has hit the bottom at the moment in my opinion, while Cloak is still rising. We shall see very soon how things turn out.

So if you take the Cloak's volume as a Pro, is way to dangerous to say, because as fast as you can earn money, you can also lose it..

-N.

[burner2014]

Nice thread!

What I would like people to compare:

1.  POSA vs. the RC4 Masternode System


2. One Market  vs. the opportunities with the Rc4 Masternode System


3. The Developer Team Cloak vs. The Developer Team Dark

Cheers guys!

Disclaimer: I want to be neutral so I cannot discuss, I ask questions

[numisma]

While we're at it, why not add XCurrency also into this discussion? All three coins are in the same basket, aren't they?

[Sleepyx]

3. The Developer Team Cloak vs. The Developer Team Dark

Cloak, who knows
Dark, Evan Duffield
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/evan-duffield/15/455/986

Software Developer / Owner
Hawk Financial Group
February 2014 – Present (6 months) Phoenix, AZ

Software Developer
iAcquire
Privately Held; 51-200 employees; Marketing and Advertising industry
March 2012 – February 2014 (2 years) Scottsdale, AZ

Software Developer
Wells Fargo Bank
Public Company; 10,001+ employees; WFC; Financial Services industry
2011 – March 2012 (1 year)

Software Development / Consulting
Warped AI, LLC
January 2009 – February 2011 (2 years 2 months)

Specialties
Software Development, Machine Learning, Artificial Intelligence, Databases, C++, C, Perl, PHP, MySQL, Linux

[salmion]

Darkcoin uses a trustless system of multiple premixing advanced conjoin variant more like it.

More pros for darkcoin

- while darksend+ is still closed source how it works has been explained (unlike PosA - could be great, could be useless, who knows, hope it's good because competition is good)

- Code review by the creator of conjoin sudoko - kristov atlas so if he says it's good, it's good.

- Higher volume over a longer time period (cloak is shooting up and well done to them but on average DRK has had way higher volume for way longer)

Cons
the instamine could you include http://wiki.darkcoin.eu/wiki/FAQ#Was_Darkcoin_Instamined.3F
Written about in detail and people can make their own minds up.

And include sources in general..

[rethink-your-strategy]

Cloak, who knows
Dark, Evan Duffield
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/evan-duffield/15/455/986

Software Developer / Owner
Hawk Financial Group
February 2014 – Present (6 months) Phoenix, AZ

Software Developer
iAcquire
Privately Held; 51-200 employees; Marketing and Advertising industry
March 2012 – February 2014 (2 years) Scottsdale, AZ

Software Developer
Wells Fargo Bank
Public Company; 10,001+ employees; WFC; Financial Services industry
2011 – March 2012 (1 year)

Software Development / Consulting
Warped AI, LLC
January 2009 – February 2011 (2 years 2 months)

Specialties
Software Development, Machine Learning, Artificial Intelligence, Databases, C++, C, Perl, PHP, MySQL, Linux

You'll notice that, unsurprisingly, he has no experience or education in mathematics and cryptography, the two things you need for a cryptocurrency.

I think both Cloakcoin and Darkcoin are irrelevant, in a year or two they'll be nothing more than a bootnote on a Wikipedia article on failed cryptocurrencies.

[Sleepyx]

Cloak, who knows
Dark, Evan Duffield
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/evan-duffield/15/455/986

Software Developer / Owner
Hawk Financial Group
February 2014 – Present (6 months) Phoenix, AZ

Software Developer
iAcquire
Privately Held; 51-200 employees; Marketing and Advertising industry
March 2012 – February 2014 (2 years) Scottsdale, AZ

Software Developer
Wells Fargo Bank
Public Company; 10,001+ employees; WFC; Financial Services industry
2011 – March 2012 (1 year)

Software Development / Consulting
Warped AI, LLC
January 2009 – February 2011 (2 years 2 months)

Specialties
Software Development, Machine Learning, Artificial Intelligence, Databases, C++, C, Perl, PHP, MySQL, Linux

You'll notice that, unsurprisingly, he has no experience or education in mathematics and cryptography, the two things you need for a cryptocurrency.

I think both Cloakcoin and Darkcoin are irrelevant, in a year or two they'll be nothing more than a bootnote on a Wikipedia article on failed cryptocurrencies.

Well... Kristov Atlas is looking at the code and said in a video yesterday he will be helping in test net. Hes a pretty big deal.
http://anonymousbitcoinbook.com/pages/about-the-author

Hi, my name is Kristov, and I wrote Anonymous Bitcoin.

I've been in the computer security space for a while now. After I completed B.S. and M.S. degrees in Computer Science, I worked as an independent security researcher and an employed consultant. During much of that time, I evaluated the security of a variety of business websites, including those belonging to the largest corporations in the world.

[illodin]

You'll notice that, unsurprisingly, he has no experience or education in mathematics and cryptography, the two things you need for a cryptocurrency.

Note though, that he is not creating new cryptography, he is using well established, true and tested existing cryptography.

Mathematicians and cryptographers have often produced new crypto that has later been proven faulty.

I think both Cloakcoin and Darkcoin are irrelevant, in a year or two they'll be nothing more than a bootnote on a Wikipedia article on failed cryptocurrencies.

Offtopic. Create a new thread for your predictions.

[PoS]

The issue with Darkcoin is the release at the most  inconvenient time, Sunday 4 AM and then instamining the shit out of it with 50 Amazon AWS nodes and 50 microsoft cloud computing, no windows wallet is just another minor fact.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=560138.msg7535561#msg7535561
I did have a fair few darkcoins but exited Dark and got Cloak about a week ago.

[FreedomCoin]

While we're at it, why not add XCurrency also into this discussion? All three coins are in the same basket, aren't they?

Sure i am open to that, can you send me some pros and cons with sources to each point?

[stealth923]

And this is just another few reasons why Darkcoin coin will succeed:

• Darksend+ technology which has over 6 months of development and been written from the ground up to evolve previous solutions, this is how you get better, you try, and try again until you succeed. Success very rarely happens on the first go
• Darksend+ huge advantage that coins are anonymized & denominated through 8 masternodes and sent back to the user. The user can then send straight to the recipient anonmyously. This removes any responsibility/liabilities that MN owners could have. Competitor coins all forward coins through their systems which is flawed.
  
• Professional solution explanations with diagrams to clearly how the proposed solutions will work
• Full transparency to the testing environment where everyone is involved, nothing is hidden
• Open communication about what bugs they are tackling, this shows confidence in the solution
• World class team, leading innovation which all coins just look toward and copy in some way shape or form
• Taken seriously enough to have Kristov Atlas onboard to help review and improve the technology
• Over 830 masternodes which their potential has not even begun to be realized, and already solves many economic pitfalls apparent in the BitCoin node design. 830 Masternodes is likely more than any competitor has for wallets open at a single point in time.
• IP obfuscation solution has been announced and the solution will be open sourced after Kristov review is the last piece of the puzzle.

Now compare this to some of the competitors who:

• 4-6 weeks old and have not had any REAL discussions on how the technology actually applies to design & attack weaknesses. When questioned, replies like "we have thought and tested through these scenarios"....so suddenly you are world leading security experts and can test against all known attack vectors.
• Release whitepapers with a box with a single word in it which supposed to encompass the entire solution, my 3 year old can do this
• Have to tell their users to "refrain" from using the solution when they release it, then why release it?
• When questioned about their solution, delete the posts in their thread and in the media deliver one line statements like "the data is encoded to hide the sender"...but how..?
• Cannot even get anonymity working so lets start coding an entire openmarket to give more hype....If you dont think anonymity is a serious and complex enough solution, you obviously have no idea.
• Can only make videos as justification to prove it works.
• Have no background to the development team as they are 100% anonymous. What if they are just great video editors and graphic designers.
• Both of the main competitors use Proof of Stake and have given only 1 week of PoW....this is taking centralization to a new level.
• Dev's have admitted to not having great anonymity, and are still trying to think of solutions for bad actors such as centralized black listing which was floored in the XC rev 1.0 design and hence thrown out. Additionally now possibly copying Darkcoin by requiring to have "small investments" to become a node
• Have made no announcements or plans to open source.
  

[rethink-your-strategy]

Note though, that he is not creating new cryptography, he is using well established, true and tested existing cryptography.

Mathematicians and cryptographers have often produced new crypto that has later been proven faulty.

Oh absolutely, I'm not suggesting he invent new cryptography. I'm suggesting he provide cryptographically sound mathematical models to show how these "masternodes" are impervious to collusion, Sybil attacks, or an attacker DDoSing the DarkCoin P2P port on enough of them so that they control a sufficient number. This is the sort of thing anyone competent would do BEFORE they start coding.

So, keeping it in line with topic:

Darkcoin Cons:
- lack of peer-reviewed cryptography
- lack of understanding of threat models
- developer is clearly incompetent (see failed RCwhatever releases causing forks)
- whitepaper contains no mathematical proof of the resilience of the anonymity set to attacks
- whitepaper contains a mathematical formula for the block reward curve that is completely unrelated to the actual block reward curve (see Darkcoins in Circulation - First 128 days, and Darkcoin Block Reward Emission Curve - First 128 Days), implying either a completely incompetent developer, or a developer that actively and aggressively cheats

Cloackcoin Cons:
- lack of peer-reviewed cryptography
- lack of understanding of threat models
- "elected" nodes open to Sybil attacks and cheating
- whitepaper contains no mathematical proof of the resilience of the anonymity set to attacks
- uses PoS, which introduces lots of technical failures and methods of cheating of its own

[stealth923]

Note though, that he is not creating new cryptography, he is using well established, true and tested existing cryptography.

Mathematicians and cryptographers have often produced new crypto that has later been proven faulty.

Oh absolutely, I'm not suggesting he invent new cryptography. I'm suggesting he provide cryptographically sound mathematical models to show how these "masternodes" are impervious to collusion, Sybil attacks, or an attacker DDoSing the DarkCoin P2P port on enough of them so that they control a sufficient number. This is the sort of thing anyone competent would do BEFORE they start coding.

So, keeping it in line with topic:

Darkcoin Cons:
- lack of peer-reviewed cryptography
- lack of understanding of threat models
- developer is clearly incompetent (see failed RCwhatever releases causing forks)
- whitepaper contains no mathematical proof of the resilience of the anonymity set to attacks
- whitepaper contains a mathematical formula for the block reward curve that is completely unrelated to the actual block reward curve (see Darkcoins in Circulation - First 128 days, and Darkcoin Block Reward Emission Curve - First 128 Days), implying either a completely incompetent developer, or a developer that actively and aggressively cheats

1) Kristov Atlas is reviewing the code and design right now.
2) Wrong - this has been discussed in depth for over 6 months, why do you think its 2500 pages. People like anonymint have given the thumbs up even over Monero.
3) Software development to this scale and complexity is not a fool proof science, id like to see you try. At least he is full time and trying until he and the team succeeds.
4) & 5) Look here for things like collusion probability

https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-updates-july-15th.1788/
https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-update-july-30th.1924/

fernando on the darkcointalk.org forums created a chart outlining the probability of unmasking a Darksend by way of Masternode collusion at depths of both 2 and 8 Masternode hops:

2 hops: http://goo.gl/g1dQ3C
8 hops: http://goo.gl/TcWoF0

[humanitee]

- developer is clearly incompetent (see failed RCwhatever releases causing forks)

By this logic Satoshi and Gavin are also incompetent.  

It's almost like software development is a complicated process. Who knew?



CLOAK
Cons:
Nobody knows how it's anonymity feature works, nobody can explain it, not even a rough technical outline, and therefore nobody knows whether or not it's trustless. Are you literally sending your coins to a node? Nobody knows.

[rethink-your-strategy]

1) Kristov Atlas is reviewing the code and design right now.
2) Wrong - this has been discussed in depth for over 6 months, why do you think its 2500 pages. People like anonymint have given the thumbs up even over Monero.
3) Software development to this scale and complexity is not a fool proof science, id like to see you try. At least he is full time and trying until he and the team succeeds.
4) & 5) Look here for things like collusion probability

https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-updates-july-15th.1788/
https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-update-july-30th.1924/

fernando on the darkcointalk.org forums created a chart outlining the probability of unmasking a Darksend by way of Masternode collusion at depths of both 2 and 8 Masternode hops:

2 hops: http://goo.gl/g1dQ3C
8 hops: http://goo.gl/TcWoF0

1. Peer-reviews consist of multiple eyes on things, not a single person. Either way, let's see what comes out of that. At this stage I have my doubts about him being unbiased.

2. I know you're talking bullshit. Do you know you're talking bullshit? Here is AnonyMint's overview of anonymous cryptocurrencies. He lists many common "cons" among the coins (many of which are not credible threats at this juncture, if you want my personal opinion). He does, however, make a point of noting that Monero (and Boolberry, by extension) are "cryptographically unlinkable & untraceable", whereas he notes that DarkCoin is not as anonymous, as it suffers from "unlinkability Sybil attack on masternodes". The only thing AnonyMint says about Cloakcoin is that, in respects to DarkCoin, "this is the best CloakCoin's anonymity could improve to as it is similar conceptually in design".

3. Nobody is expecting fool-proof. Everyone is expect, at least, that an incredibly simple block reward formula in the whitepaper works in the code. That is not the case, and incompetence in one area almost always indicates incompetence elsewhere.

4. and 5. (no clue how this relates to 5) - collusion on its own is irrelevant. Of course it will be ineffectual. It would always be coupled with the compromise or the DDoSing of additional "masternodes". In such an event, the number of available masternodes is massively reduced, which means the the little Google spreadsheet is incorrect. Many hosts will null-route a dedicated server (even more so a VPS) if it is experiencing a DDoS. Other attacks such as a DDoS group constantly requesting a stream of blocks from a masternode would lead to its traffic exceeding normal use and massive traffic bills. Similarly, a DDoS group could broadcast thousands of bad blocks a second to a masternode, leading to it chewing through CPU cycles doing very heavy X11 verifications, ultimately leading to it becoming inaccessible or being killed by the oomkiller. Those are just off the top of my head, of course, and the attack stands regardless of whether these specific scenarios can be mitigated against.

[FreedomCoin]

I agree with both your statements. (I think I saw one more comment?)

From my point of view, I always check the very top or the peak of the "pump", if I can express myself like that. And I always like to see where's the bottom or where is the "base", where people would rather hold then sell. And at the moment, we can't see these details from Cloak, but DRK has hit the bottom at the moment in my opinion, while Cloak is still rising. We shall see very soon how things turn out.

So if you take the Cloak's volume as a Pro, is way to dangerous to say, because as fast as you can earn money, you can also lose it..

-N.

Since Cloak has been out on the market less time, and is currently listed on less Exchanges. I think the price can drop and rise more aggressively. As you stated, it goes both ways. Dark has been dropping pretty smoothly for the last month so we will see with time how gracefully the price of Cloak readjusts itself.

Nice thread!

What I would like people to compare:

1.  POSA vs. the RC4 Masternode System


2. One Market  vs. the opportunities with the Rc4 Masternode System


3. The Developer Team Cloak vs. The Developer Team Dark

Cheers guys!

Disclaimer: I want to be neutral so I cannot discuss, I ask questions

1. I believe the PoSA algo has been used for some time so there is more real world testing done with it. Please correct me if I am wrong, the RCs Darkcoin has released were pretty Darkcoin centric and not based on existing algo’s. Nothing wrong with not taking the beaten path, and with that came many more RCs. But he keeps trying and that’s whats important. I hate to quote Edison as I am a Telsa fan, but he has a good point “"I have not failed 1,000 times. I have
successfully discovered 1,000 ways to NOT make a light bulb."

2. OneMarket and the MasterNode systems are both brand new techs, With one Market you will get away from the centralized Tor site issue that many other Darknet sites suffered from. And regarding MasterNodes, it’s a great way to get involved in getting Devidends from the Darkcoin network without the huge waste of power consumption of POW. As before the only other way was POS, which was basically getting interest for holding coins in your wallet. MNs help secure the network, and you get paid at the same time, but without the massive power comsumption.

3. As Sleepyx stated a couple posts after you not much is known about the Cloakcoin Devs. Evan is known and I believe they were talking devs on the darkcoin forum to use their real names for their avatars. Not sure how that turned out.

Darkcoin uses a trustless system of multiple premixing advanced conjoin variant more like it.

More pros for darkcoin

- while darksend+ is still closed source how it works has been explained (unlike PosA - could be great, could be useless, who knows, hope it's good because competition is good)

- Code review by the creator of conjoin sudoko - kristov atlas so if he says it's good, it's good.

- Higher volume over a longer time period (cloak is shooting up and well done to them but on average DRK has had way higher volume for way longer)

Cons
the instamine could you include http://wiki.darkcoin.eu/wiki/FAQ#Was_Darkcoin_Instamined.3F
Written about in detail and people can make their own minds up.

And include sources in general..

I believe the Darkcoin team stated they will open Darksend+ code, though Cloak has not made any claims they are planning on releasing source code.
Code review by the creator of conjoin sudoko - kristov atlas: I believe we are still waiting on his findings, I am quite excited to see what he has found.. Does anyone know if Kristov is planning on working with the CloakCoin Devs to do the same?

+1 on the volume

Added sources as well.

The issue with Darkcoin is the release at the most  inconvenient time, Sunday 4 AM and then instamining the shit out of it with 50 Amazon AWS nodes and 50 microsoft cloud computing, no windows wallet is just another minor fact.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=560138.msg7535561#msg7535561
I did have a fair few darkcoins but exited Dark and got Cloak about a week ago.

Yes it was unfortunate when they launched, I wonder what their reasons were for only a 7 day POW system. To me it is quite suspicious….

And this is just another few reasons why Darkcoin coin will succeed:

• Darksend+ technology which has over 6 months of development and been written from the ground up to evolve previous solutions, this is how you get better, you try, and try again until you succeed. Success very rarely happens on the first go
• Darksend+ huge advantage that coins are anonymized & denominated through 8 masternodes and sent back to the user. The user can then send straight to the recipient anonmyously. This removes any responsibility/liabilities that MN owners could have. Competitor coins all forward coins through their systems which is flawed.
  
• Professional solution explanations with diagrams to clearly how the proposed solutions will work
• Full transparency to the testing environment where everyone is involved, nothing is hidden
• Open communication about what bugs they are tackling, this shows confidence in the solution
• World class team, leading innovation which all coins just look toward and copy in some way shape or form
• Taken seriously enough to have Kristov Atlas onboard to help review and improve the technology
• Over 830 masternodes which their potential has not even begun to be realized, and already solves many economic pitfalls apparent in the BitCoin node design. 830 Masternodes is likely more than any competitor has for wallets open at a single point in time.
• IP obfuscation solution has been announced and the solution will be open sourced after Kristov review is the last piece of the puzzle.

Now compare this to some of the competitors who:

• 4-6 weeks old and have not had any REAL discussions on how the technology actually applies to design & attack weaknesses. When questioned, replies like "we have thought and tested through these scenarios"....so suddenly you are world leading security experts and can test against all known attack vectors.
• Release whitepapers with a box with a single word in it which supposed to encompass the entire solution, my 3 year old can do this
• Have to tell their users to "refrain" from using the solution when they release it, then why release it?
• When questioned about their solution, delete the posts in their thread and in the media deliver one line statements like "the data is encoded to hide the sender"...but how..?
• Cannot even get anonymity working so lets start coding an entire openmarket to give more hype....If you dont think anonymity is a serious and complex enough solution, you obviously have no idea.
• Can only make videos as justification to prove it works.
• Have no background to the development team as they are 100% anonymous. What if they are just great video editors and graphic designers.
• Both of the main competitors use Proof of Stake and have given only 1 week of PoW....this is taking centralization to a new level.
• Dev's have admitted to not having great anonymity, and are still trying to think of solutions for bad actors such as centralized black listing which was floored in the XC rev 1.0 design and hence thrown out. Additionally now possibly copying Darkcoin by requiring to have "small investments" to become a node
• Have made no announcements or plans to open source.
  

"Full transparency to the testing environment where everyone is involved, nothing is hidden:"

I believe a lot of their code is not subject to review, only when working closely with their team such as Mr Atlas would be able to see whats in the software at this moment.. Hopefully that will change soon.


"4-6 weeks old and have not had any REAL discussions on how the technology actually applies to design & attack weaknesses."

I believe they will find out the hard way when hackers test it.


"Darksend+ huge advantage that coins are anonymized & denominated through 8 masternodes and sent back to the user."

I am curious how long it will take to send and receive coins when going through 8 MNs. Seeing RC4 live should answer that.

Note though, that he is not creating new cryptography, he is using well established, true and tested existing cryptography.

Mathematicians and cryptographers have often produced new crypto that has later been proven faulty.

Oh absolutely, I'm not suggesting he invent new cryptography. I'm suggesting he provide cryptographically sound mathematical models to show how these "masternodes" are impervious to collusion, Sybil attacks, or an attacker DDoSing the DarkCoin P2P port on enough of them so that they control a sufficient number. This is the sort of thing anyone competent would do BEFORE they start coding.

So, keeping it in line with topic:

Darkcoin Cons:
- lack of peer-reviewed cryptography
- lack of understanding of threat models
- developer is clearly incompetent (see failed RCwhatever releases causing forks)
- whitepaper contains no mathematical proof of the resilience of the anonymity set to attacks
- whitepaper contains a mathematical formula for the block reward curve that is completely unrelated to the actual block reward curve (see Darkcoins in Circulation - First 128 days, and Darkcoin Block Reward Emission Curve - First 128 Days), implying either a completely incompetent developer, or a developer that actively and aggressively cheats

Cloackcoin Cons:
- lack of peer-reviewed cryptography
- lack of understanding of threat models
- "elected" nodes open to Sybil attacks and cheating
- whitepaper contains no mathematical proof of the resilience of the anonymity set to attacks
- uses PoS, which introduces lots of technical failures and methods of cheating of its own

"This is the sort of thing anyone competent would do BEFORE they start coding."


It is very hard to protect from zero day attacks by definition of their nature. Of course there are many ways to do penetration testing on your products but many will be unforeseen until they occur. It would seem both coins are testing ground breaking tech, the question is what exploits will be found.

[FreedomCoin]

Cons:
Nobody knows how it's anonymity feature works, nobody can explain it, not even a rough technical outline, and therefore nobody knows whether or not it's trustless. Are you literally sending your coins to a node? Nobody knows.

[burner2014]

Does anyone know if Kristov is planning on working with the CloakCoin Devs to do the same?

I approached him via email right after I read the thing in this thread. He is exactly the person I am looking for as a neutral consultant to investigate the Cloakcoin specifications. But here I have to say it again, one person can not make a coin legit. I prefer to have at least 2-3 people investigating a coin to get a good view of the technical specifications and to suspend any fears of bias.

I know it will not be easy but I hope I can get this off in the next months if Cloakcoin is still existing. ( )

[FreedomCoin]

Does anyone know if Kristov is planning on working with the CloakCoin Devs to do the same?

I approached him via email right after I read the thing in this thread. He is exactly the person I am looking for as a neutral consultant to investigate the Cloakcoin specifications. But here I have to say it again, one person can not make a coin legit. I prefer to have at least 2-3 people investigating a coin to get a good view of the technical specifications and to suspend any fears of bias.

I know it will not be easy but I hope I can get this off in the next months if Cloakcoin is still existing. ( )

Agreed, one person saying "its good" does not make it good. In a perfect world both Dark and Cloak should open all their code to the public and allow the community to decide, not select players in the crypto or security world.

[burner2014]

Does anyone know if Kristov is planning on working with the CloakCoin Devs to do the same?

I approached him via email right after I read the thing in this thread. He is exactly the person I am looking for as a neutral consultant to investigate the Cloakcoin specifications. But here I have to say it again, one person can not make a coin legit. I prefer to have at least 2-3 people investigating a coin to get a good view of the technical specifications and to suspend any fears of bias.

I know it will not be easy but I hope I can get this off in the next months if Cloakcoin is still existing. ( )

Agreed, one person saying "its good" does not make it good. In a perfect world both Dark and Cloak should open all their code to the public and allow the community to decide, not select players in the crypto or security world.

Yes and no. Yes I like the move but I think this would bring a lot of people who have no idea about the technical part to say, I am professional, I saw that POSA or Masternode System is not working. Market reacts, fear , fear sell .. big boom. Saw it at Vootcoin, not that Voot is an as strong community as Dark or Cloak.

I more think about to have 3-5 people who show their expertise / trust  and then investigate a coin. Just at the beginning .. in long-term open source is maybe the way to go in Crypto World to get coins really started off.

[humanitee]

Does anyone know if Kristov is planning on working with the CloakCoin Devs to do the same?

I approached him via email right after I read the thing in this thread. He is exactly the person I am looking for as a neutral consultant to investigate the Cloakcoin specifications. But here I have to say it again, one person can not make a coin legit. I prefer to have at least 2-3 people investigating a coin to get a good view of the technical specifications and to suspend any fears of bias.

I know it will not be easy but I hope I can get this off in the next months if Cloakcoin is still existing. ( )

Agreed, one person saying "its good" does not make it good. In a perfect world both Dark and Cloak should open all their code to the public and allow the community to decide, not select players in the crypto or security world.

I know in DRK's case they are just using him to make sure there are no glaring issues in the code before releasing it. After that they are open sourcing it. That's not to say there won't be some crazy issue in the DRK source, but this step at least allows the minimization of bugs on a system that is already deployed. If the network wasn't running the closed source code currently, I doubt Kristov would even be needed. It could just be instantly open sourced.

[newuser01]

Why don't you include Monero?

[FreedomCoin]

1) Kristov Atlas is reviewing the code and design right now.
2) Wrong - this has been discussed in depth for over 6 months, why do you think its 2500 pages. People like anonymint have given the thumbs up even over Monero.
3) Software development to this scale and complexity is not a fool proof science, id like to see you try. At least he is full time and trying until he and the team succeeds.
4) & 5) Look here for things like collusion probability

https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-updates-july-15th.1788/
https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-update-july-30th.1924/

fernando on the darkcointalk.org forums created a chart outlining the probability of unmasking a Darksend by way of Masternode collusion at depths of both 2 and 8 Masternode hops:

2 hops: http://goo.gl/g1dQ3C
8 hops: http://goo.gl/TcWoF0

1. Peer-reviews consist of multiple eyes on things, not a single person. Either way, let's see what comes out of that. At this stage I have my doubts about him being unbiased.

2. I know you're talking bullshit. Do you know you're talking bullshit? Here is AnonyMint's overview of anonymous cryptocurrencies. He lists many common "cons" among the coins (many of which are not credible threats at this juncture, if you want my personal opinion). He does, however, make a point of noting that Monero (and Boolberry, by extension) are "cryptographically unlinkable & untraceable", whereas he notes that DarkCoin is not as anonymous, as it suffers from "unlinkability Sybil attack on masternodes". The only thing AnonyMint says about Cloakcoin is that, in respects to DarkCoin, "this is the best CloakCoin's anonymity could improve to as it is similar conceptually in design".

3. Nobody is expecting fool-proof. Everyone is expect, at least, that an incredibly simple block reward formula in the whitepaper works in the code. That is not the case, and incompetence in one area almost always indicates incompetence elsewhere.

4. and 5. (no clue how this relates to 5) - collusion on its own is irrelevant. Of course it will be ineffectual. It would always be coupled with the compromise or the DDoSing of additional "masternodes". In such an event, the number of available masternodes is massively reduced, which means the the little Google spreadsheet is incorrect. Many hosts will null-route a dedicated server (even more so a VPS) if it is experiencing a DDoS. Other attacks such as a DDoS group constantly requesting a stream of blocks from a masternode would lead to its traffic exceeding normal use and massive traffic bills. Similarly, a DDoS group could broadcast thousands of bad blocks a second to a masternode, leading to it chewing through CPU cycles doing very heavy X11 verifications, ultimately leading to it becoming inaccessible or being killed by the oomkiller. Those are just off the top of my head, of course, and the attack stands regardless of whether these specific scenarios can be mitigated against.

1. Yes, we need more than one person to give us feedback on the code. Hopefully more will step in to audit the code or as stated before open it up for any coders that want to look over for us.

2. AnonyMint may have found flaws, but how many of them are realistic? I do not fully understand those attack vectors... but soo many have said Bitcoin has exploits like a 51% attack, or dishonest mining pools, but all of those have been proven not to work without throwing massive amounts of resources at them.. the question is, are these attacks feasible?

3. Thats why they have to test and release new revisions, look how many times the bitcoin wallet has been changed.

4. Time will tell, lets just hope it dosnt turn into a Vericoin fiasco.. doing a "shutter" rollback "shutter".

[synechist]

If you guys are up for discussing XCurrency too, here's a brief introduction to get the conversation started:

- XC is the only project with an already-implemented anonymity solution that is currently working.

- XC has a flexible and layered approach to privacy, which is to say there are several ways in which one can be private.
- This "layered" approach is important to make XC relevant for several use cases.

- Here are the functions that will be exposed to XC users:
     - conceal your address from the recipient (XC's equivalent of a stealth address)
     - conceal the amount sent/received (Multipath, i.e. splitting transactions into fragments and having them routed down separate paths through the network)
     - either send directly to recipient or use trustless mixing (that latter of which is a world first - a solution to the Byzantine Generals' problem for privacy-centric currencies)
     - conceal your IP address (The XC TOR Stick / embedded I2P-like node)

There are a lot of other aspects to XC, like mobile-centric development (fully functional staking mobile wallets) and blockchain 2.0 capabilities, but since DRK and CLOAK are anoncoins, the privacy-related stuff is relevant here.

[humanitee]

Why don't you include Monero?

Most likely due to the fact that the DRK thread has been filling up with CLOAK talk.

[FreedomCoin]

Why don't you include Monero?

Most likely due to the fact that the DRK thread has been filling up with CLOAK talk.

Regarding DRK, looks like they are getting closer to releasing RC4 with yesterday's release.

I am open to listing other coins, if someone can give me pros and cons with sources like in post #1.

And with these x11 and x13 coins, how are they handling difficulty adjustment... I heard if too many GPUs start mining the network can make it more difficult for them, while keeping CPU mining easier as long as then too many people do not CPU mine.

Does Dark, Cloak, XC and Monero have an advanced difficulty retargeting system?

[synechist]

Why don't you include Monero?

Most likely due to the fact that the DRK thread has been filling up with CLOAK talk.

Regarding DRK, looks like they are getting closer to releasing RC4 with yesterday's release.

I am open to listing other coins, if someone can give me pros and cons with sources like in post #1.

Sure.

[Sleepyx]

- XC is the only project with an already-implemented anonymity solution that is currently working.

Every coin says this. Nothing against xc but do coins not check if others have currently working anon?

[hoertest]

2 additional pro for XCurrency that are not anon related since Synechist covered that:

- known and reputable dev and Team, http://xc-official.com/the-xc-team/

- helpfull community spirit with dev taking the lead , btw XC is far ahead of reviewed coin:
   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=695457.msg8092391#msg8092391

[illodin]

If you guys are up for discussing XCurrency too, here's a brief introduction to get the conversation started:

- XC is the only project with an already-implemented anonymity solution that is currently working.

Stopped reading right there.

[PowderMonkey]

If you guys are up for discussing XCurrency too, here's a brief introduction to get the conversation started:

- XC is the only project with an already-implemented anonymity solution that is currently working.

Stopped reading right there.

Illodin, you shouldn't need to read about XC, you've been in our thread plenty already.  

[illodin]

4. and 5. (no clue how this relates to 5) - collusion on its own is irrelevant. Of course it will be ineffectual. It would always be coupled with the compromise or the DDoSing of additional "masternodes". In such an event, the number of available masternodes is massively reduced, which means the the little Google spreadsheet is incorrect. Many hosts will null-route a dedicated server (even more so a VPS) if it is experiencing a DDoS. Other attacks such as a DDoS group constantly requesting a stream of blocks from a masternode would lead to its traffic exceeding normal use and massive traffic bills. Similarly, a DDoS group could broadcast thousands of bad blocks a second to a masternode, leading to it chewing through CPU cycles doing very heavy X11 verifications, ultimately leading to it becoming inaccessible or being killed by the oomkiller. Those are just off the top of my head, of course, and the attack stands regardless of whether these specific scenarios can be mitigated against.

Refreshing to read opinions of someone who actually has a clue instead of crypto noobs hyping their vapor buzzwords. I consider myself to be crypto noob as well, however:

What if the Darkcoin wallet was monitoring the state of the network, and if the running masternode count fell for example 50% in a short period of time, it would stop denominating funds (denomination is the anonymization process which runs in the background). This wouldn't affect people sending or receiving coins because they already have them denominated/anonymized. It would only prevent people from re-sending received funds during this ddos period.

Every other coin has to use nodes as well, and they can be ddos attacked which can halt the network for the duration of the attack. It's not only Darkcoin that is susceptible to ddos.

[illodin]

If you guys are up for discussing XCurrency too, here's a brief introduction to get the conversation started:

- XC is the only project with an already-implemented anonymity solution that is currently working.

Stopped reading right there.

Illodin, you shouldn't need to read about XC, you've been in our thread plenty already.  

lol got me. 

[synechist]

- XC is the only project with an already-implemented anonymity solution that is currently working.

Every coin says this. Nothing against xc but do coins not check if others have currently working anon?

Fair point. Maybe I haven't checked sufficiently. Who else has it?

Let me know and I might be able to qualify what I mean by "working" and "anonymity". ;-)

[PowderMonkey]

4. and 5. (no clue how this relates to 5) - collusion on its own is irrelevant. Of course it will be ineffectual. It would always be coupled with the compromise or the DDoSing of additional "masternodes". In such an event, the number of available masternodes is massively reduced, which means the the little Google spreadsheet is incorrect. Many hosts will null-route a dedicated server (even more so a VPS) if it is experiencing a DDoS. Other attacks such as a DDoS group constantly requesting a stream of blocks from a masternode would lead to its traffic exceeding normal use and massive traffic bills. Similarly, a DDoS group could broadcast thousands of bad blocks a second to a masternode, leading to it chewing through CPU cycles doing very heavy X11 verifications, ultimately leading to it becoming inaccessible or being killed by the oomkiller. Those are just off the top of my head, of course, and the attack stands regardless of whether these specific scenarios can be mitigated against.

Refreshing to read opinions of someone who actually has a clue instead of crypto noobs hyping their vapor buzzwords. I consider myself to be crypto noob as well, however:

What if the Darkcoin wallet was monitoring the state of the network, and if the running masternode count fell for example 50% in a short period of time, it would stop denominating funds (denomination is the anonymization process which runs in the background). This wouldn't affect people sending or receiving coins because they already have them denominated/anonymized. It would only prevent people from re-sending received funds during this ddos period.

Every other coin has to use nodes as well, and they can be ddos attacked which can halt the network for the duration of the attack. It's not only Darkcoin that is susceptible to ddos.

Glad to hear that Darkcoin has built-in protection for this attack vector, it's certainly a valid concern.

XC does also, in that every single wallet is a node.  Thus, there's no central point that can be targeted for a ddos.  

In addition, transactions are multisig so they require several parties to sign before they are processed.  If a bad node alters a transaction to steal funds, or refuses to sign, the transaction won't be processed, so you can't lose funds.  Also, since there are redundant connections between nodes that provide multiple pathways for funds, if a node fails to sign a transaction there are others ready to take its place.  This means that if there was a ddos attack, even though it's not really possible due to the completely decentralized nature of XC, you'd still be able to send and receive funds.  Pretty cool stuff, really.

[illodin]

Glad to hear that Darkcoin has built-in protection for this attack vector, it's certainly a valid concern.

It doesn't have that, it was just something I was suggesting in DRK thread earlier and asking what people's thoughts about it are. But if the idea is feasible and provides additional security, the implementation probably should be pretty straightforward.

XC does also, in that every single wallet is a node.  Thus, there's no central point that can be targeted for a ddos.

It's the same thing. XC node that participates in anonymization requires an open incoming TCP port, and the attacker can ddos those nodes just as well as drk masternodes.

In addition, transactions are multisig so they require several parties to sign before they are processed.  If a bad node alters a transaction to steal funds, or refuses to sign, the transaction won't be processed, so you can't lose funds.  Also, since there are redundant connections between nodes that provide multiple pathways for funds, if a node fails to sign a transaction there are others ready to take its place.  Pretty cool stuff, really.

The goal when ddos'ing nodes is to first set up many nodes yourself, then ddos the other nodes, so you can then have a control of big enough percentage of the nodes so you can spy the transactions with good enough success.

[rethink-your-strategy]

Every coin says this. Nothing against xc but do coins not check if others have currently working anon?

Fair point. Maybe I haven't checked sufficiently. Who else has it?

Let me know and I might be able to qualify what I mean by "working" and "anonymity". ;-)

All of the CryptoNote coins do (Monero, Boolberry, Bytecoin (BCN) etc.) They have working anonymity from their launch. If you take Bytecoin's claim at face value (it's pretty clear it's bullshit) they have been around for 2 years. Even knowing that it's likely a false claim meant to cover up their 82% premine, you still come face-to-face with an indisputable fact: Bytecoin's first commit to github was on 15 November 2013, and already then the code worked and provided cryptographically untraceable and unlinkable transactions. Monero, too, was launched (fairly) on 18 April 2014, before XC even came into existence.

As much as I think Bytecoin is a fail because of their premine, they are the ONLY ones that can lay claim to having the FIRST "working anonymity". Monero and the all the other CryptoNote coins can lay claim to being the ONLY cryptocurrencies that currently have a 100% working solution to cryptographically untraceable and unlinkable transactions.

If you don't believe me, pick any transaction on the Monero blockchain (eg. http://monerochain.info/tx/49ee290a4e65bc554382089d778c1ac26b20a5b6044d3fa4b1767780e2617546) and try figure out the address of the person that sent the coins, the address of the person they were sending to, and they amount. I'll gladly even setup two wallets and transfer between them and give you the transaction ID to give it a try. Oh and these transactions are instantaneous, no waiting for a mixing hop to finish or anything.

[synechist]

Glad to hear that Darkcoin has built-in protection for this attack vector, it's certainly a valid concern.

It doesn't have that, it was just something I was suggesting in DRK thread earlier and asking what people's thoughts about it are. But if the idea is feasible and provides additional security, the implementation probably should be pretty straightforward.

XC does also, in that every single wallet is a node.  Thus, there's no central point that can be targeted for a ddos.

It's the same thing. XC node that participates in anonymization requires an open incoming TCP port, and the attacker can ddos those nodes just as well as drk masternodes.

In addition, transactions are multisig so they require several parties to sign before they are processed.  If a bad node alters a transaction to steal funds, or refuses to sign, the transaction won't be processed, so you can't lose funds.  Also, since there are redundant connections between nodes that provide multiple pathways for funds, if a node fails to sign a transaction there are others ready to take its place.  Pretty cool stuff, really.

The goal when ddos'ing nodes is to first set up many nodes yourself, then ddos the other nodes, so you can then have a control of big enough percentage of the nodes so you can spy the transactions with good enough success.

You're right that it's quite possible to DDOS any coin's nodes like this.

However it'll take up massively more resources to DDOS XC nodes with any noticeable severity, since every single node is a "masternode". The number of nodes an attacker would need to control is proportionally huge.

[hoertest]

Hi ,
arranged it for OP  if you wanna ad :

XCurrency

pros:


- Decentralised trustless Privacy in several layers, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=718489.msg8119256#msg8119256
- known and reputable dev and Team, http://xc-official.com/the-xc-team/
- helpfull community spirit with dev taking the lead , btw XC is far ahead of reviewed coin:
   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=695457.msg8092391#msg8092391
- Encrypted messaging XChat https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=630547.msg8119953#msg8119953


cons: ( well i don't agree with those but those are some usual mentioned)


- premine of 125k ( with that public dev i think its good)
- ANN on Bitcointalk is also self moderated (after unmoderated thread turned into a fud fest, so requested by community)

thank you

[rethink-your-strategy]

Refreshing to read opinions of someone who actually has a clue instead of crypto noobs hyping their vapor buzzwords. I consider myself to be crypto noob as well, however:

What if the Darkcoin wallet was monitoring the state of the network, and if the running masternode count fell for example 50% in a short period of time, it would stop denominating funds (denomination is the anonymization process which runs in the background). This wouldn't affect people sending or receiving coins because they already have them denominated/anonymized. It would only prevent people from re-sending received funds during this ddos period.

Every other coin has to use nodes as well, and they can be ddos attacked which can halt the network for the duration of the attack. It's not only Darkcoin that is susceptible to ddos.

The "monitoring the state of the network" thing is then a huge security risk AND a massive drain. This means that every single one of the (potentially tens or hundreds of thousands) have to reach out every single one of the (potentially several hundred) masternodes. This is a massive traffic burden, but it also means that a bad actor can setup (or compromise) just a single masternode in order to identify the IP address of every single node.

You are right that every coin has to use nodes, but bear in mind that 50% of nodes becoming unavailable in most cryptocurrencies isn't a showstopper. The rest will continue to operate and maintain consensus, and when those 50% come back online they'll just catch up to the network state.

[illodin]

You're right that it's quite possible to DDOS any coin's nodes like this.

However it'll take up massively more resources to DDOS XC nodes with any noticeable severity, since every single node is a "masternode". The number of nodes an attacker would need to control is proportionally huge.

Disagree. Not every XC user will run their wallet 24/7 - how many nodes are there right now? There are 800+ DRK masternodes running 24/7 atm.

Even though some people are running DRK masternodes in their home computers behind adsl or cable connections, most of them are still on dedicated servers or clouds that have gigabit connections. I would imagine it is completely opposite in XC's case. It doesn't take much to ddos someones laptop running on dsl or 3g phone.

Obviously this is not easily quantifiable, but the bolded part is just not true imo.

[synechist]

Every coin says this. Nothing against xc but do coins not check if others have currently working anon?

Fair point. Maybe I haven't checked sufficiently. Who else has it?

Let me know and I might be able to qualify what I mean by "working" and "anonymity". ;-)

All of the CryptoNote coins do (Monero, Boolberry, Bytecoin (BCN) etc.) They have working anonymity from their launch. If you take Bytecoin's claim at face value (it's pretty clear it's bullshit) they have been around for 2 years. Even knowing that it's likely a false claim meant to cover up their 82% premine, you still come face-to-face with an indisputable fact: Bytecoin's first commit to github was on 15 November 2013, and already then the code worked and provided cryptographically untraceable and unlinkable transactions. Monero, too, was launched (fairly) on 18 April 2014, before XC even came into existence.

As much as I think Bytecoin is a fail because of their premine, they are the ONLY ones that can lay claim to having the FIRST "working anonymity". Monero and the all the other CryptoNote coins can lay claim to being the ONLY cryptocurrencies that currently have a 100% working solution to cryptographically untraceable and unlinkable transactions.

If you don't believe me, pick any transaction on the Monero blockchain (eg. http://monerochain.info/tx/49ee290a4e65bc554382089d778c1ac26b20a5b6044d3fa4b1767780e2617546) and try figure out the address of the person that sent the coins, the address of the person they were sending to, and they amount. I'll gladly even setup two wallets and transfer between them and give you the transaction ID to give it a try. Oh and these transactions are instantaneous, no waiting for a mixing hop to finish or anything.

You're right about Cryptonote coins. I should've worded my statement more carefully.

My opinion of Cryptonote is that it causes an unworkable degree of blockchain bloat - so much so that it's unlikely to scale even on PCs, never mind on mobile phones. Boolberry have made hotly disputed claims about being able to reduce bloat, but to my knowledge this has not been implemented yet.

If a coin bloats, then in my opinion it should not be considered "workable", since it simply can't scale to mainstream (or even sizeable niche) adoption.

So although there's a clear sense in which Cryptonote coins are "working", there's also a clear sense in which they're not workable solutions.


XC, on the other hand, is designed from the ground up for mobile. It's eminently scalable.

[PowderMonkey]

Glad to hear that Darkcoin has built-in protection for this attack vector, it's certainly a valid concern.

It doesn't have that, it was just something I was suggesting in DRK thread earlier and asking what people's thoughts about it are. But if the idea is feasible and provides additional security, the implementation probably should be pretty straightforward.

My bad, I thought you were saying they had that in place.  I stand corrected.

XC does also, in that every single wallet is a node.  Thus, there's no central point that can be targeted for a ddos.

It's the same thing. XC node that participates in anonymization requires an open incoming TCP port, and the attacker can ddos those nodes just as well as drk masternodes.

Very much true in theory, but what would be the point?  When you can't see where the transaction is coming from or where it's going, you'd have to choose to attack a random node, and when that node fails to sign off on the funds due to the attack, the funds go on to the next node anyhow.

In addition, transactions are multisig so they require several parties to sign before they are processed.  If a bad node alters a transaction to steal funds, or refuses to sign, the transaction won't be processed, so you can't lose funds.  Also, since there are redundant connections between nodes that provide multiple pathways for funds, if a node fails to sign a transaction there are others ready to take its place.  Pretty cool stuff, really.

The goal when ddos'ing nodes is to first set up many nodes yourself, then ddos the other nodes, so you can then have a control of big enough percentage of the nodes so you can spy the transactions with good enough success.

Again, since transactions are fragmented into small pieces and then sent through the network, this attack would not be effective.  The attacker could try to spy the network, but the truth of the matter is that the remaining good nodes are still going to end up handling the transactions, however few they may be.  But again, since every single wallet is a node, I just don't see this attack being feasible.

[synechist]

You're right that it's quite possible to DDOS any coin's nodes like this.

However it'll take up massively more resources to DDOS XC nodes with any noticeable severity, since every single node is a "masternode". The number of nodes an attacker would need to control is proportionally huge.

Disagree. Not every XC user will run their wallet 24/7 - how many nodes are there right now? There are 800+ DRK masternodes running 24/7 atm.

Even though some people are running DRK masternodes in their home computers behind adsl or cable connections, most of them are still on dedicated servers or clouds that have gigabit connections. I would imagine it is completely opposite in XC's case. It doesn't take much to ddos someones laptop running on dsl or 3g phone.

Obviously this is not easily quantifiable, but the bolded part is just not true imo.

There'll be absolutely masses of running nodes on XC's network.

Because of XChat:

[rethink-your-strategy]

You're right about Cryptonote coins. I should've worded my statement more carefully.

My opinion of Cryptonote is that it causes an unworkable degree of blockchain bloat - so much so that it's unlikely to scale even on PCs, never mind on mobile phones. Boolberry have made hotly disputed claims about being able to reduce bloat, but to my knowledge this has not been implemented yet.

If a coin bloats, then in my opinion it should not be considered "workable", since it simply can't scale to mainstream (or even sizeable niche) adoption.

So although there's a clear sense in which Cryptonote coins are "working", there's also a clear sense in which they're not workable solutions.


XC, on the other hand, is designed from the ground up for mobile. It's eminently scalable.

I'm confused, are you suggesting that mobile devices will run a full node? That seems ill-advised for XC or Monero or any other cryptocurrency.

[illodin]

Refreshing to read opinions of someone who actually has a clue instead of crypto noobs hyping their vapor buzzwords. I consider myself to be crypto noob as well, however:

What if the Darkcoin wallet was monitoring the state of the network, and if the running masternode count fell for example 50% in a short period of time, it would stop denominating funds (denomination is the anonymization process which runs in the background). This wouldn't affect people sending or receiving coins because they already have them denominated/anonymized. It would only prevent people from re-sending received funds during this ddos period.

Every other coin has to use nodes as well, and they can be ddos attacked which can halt the network for the duration of the attack. It's not only Darkcoin that is susceptible to ddos.

The "monitoring the state of the network" thing is then a huge security risk AND a massive drain. This means that every single one of the (potentially tens or hundreds of thousands) have to reach out every single one of the (potentially several hundred) masternodes. This is a massive traffic burden, but it also means that a bad actor can setup (or compromise) just a single masternode in order to identify the IP address of every single node.

You are right that every coin has to use nodes, but bear in mind that 50% of nodes becoming unavailable in most cryptocurrencies isn't a showstopper. The rest will continue to operate and maintain consensus, and when those 50% come back online they'll just catch up to the network state.

I don't have deep enough understanding so I'm just throwing ideas around here. But there must be a way to distribute the count of the running nodes in trustless manner (similar to how the blockchain is distributed) without every wallet having to go and ping every masternode. This would obviously mean that the implementation wouldn't be so straightforward anymore. And, the count is needed only before doing the denomination, which could be once a day, or once a week for most users.

[battbot]

Does cloak even have any features released?  Or are they still in "promise" stage?  If the latter, why are we even discussing it?  

[PowderMonkey]

You're right about Cryptonote coins. I should've worded my statement more carefully.

My opinion of Cryptonote is that it causes an unworkable degree of blockchain bloat - so much so that it's unlikely to scale even on PCs, never mind on mobile phones. Boolberry have made hotly disputed claims about being able to reduce bloat, but to my knowledge this has not been implemented yet.

If a coin bloats, then in my opinion it should not be considered "workable", since it simply can't scale to mainstream (or even sizeable niche) adoption.

So although there's a clear sense in which Cryptonote coins are "working", there's also a clear sense in which they're not workable solutions.


XC, on the other hand, is designed from the ground up for mobile. It's eminently scalable.

I'm confused, are you suggesting that mobile devices will run a full node? That seems ill-advised for XC or Monero or any other cryptocurrency.

I'll let Synechist speak for himself, but I do want to add in my opinion

Being able to run a full node on a mobile device is not only a great idea, it's absolutely necessary for the advancement of crypto.  Just think about the direction everything is going in our world today... it's going mobile.  That's where crypto should be looking to expand, and XC has been bearing that in mind from the beginning.  

[illodin]

The goal when ddos'ing nodes is to first set up many nodes yourself, then ddos the other nodes, so you can then have a control of big enough percentage of the nodes so you can spy the transactions with good enough success.

Again, since transactions are fragmented into small pieces and then sent through the network, this attack would not be effective.  The attacker could try to spy the network, but the truth of the matter is that the remaining good nodes are still going to end up handling the transactions, however few they may be.  But again, since every single wallet is a node, I just don't see this attack being feasible.

How can you tell which nodes are good and which nodes are spying? You can't.

[illodin]

There'll be absolutely masses of running nodes on XC's network.

Because of XChat:

https://i.imgur.com/D57dl0F.jpg

I don't get it but ok I guess. 

[policymaker]

This is not a discuses anyone more ... everyone is just throwing his coin in here and trying to advertise so their coin gets pumped how pathetic is this really... Please stay on the topic and let us only focus on DARKCOIN and CLOAKCOIN. Can we do this ? Thank you

We are truly sorry, we didnt mean to offend your investment, but I thought this was the " Pros and Cons to Anon coins, Including Darkcoin / Cloakcoin, lets discuss them" . If you wanted a topic just on those two, you should make it or change it and we can have a conversation into a new topic.


@illodin

xchat will be available to every single user, for free. You can use it just for the anonymous encrypted messaging, and not be considered a holder with too many coins, but such a powerful software will be usable for free by so many, thus supporting network.

[PowderMonkey]

The goal when ddos'ing nodes is to first set up many nodes yourself, then ddos the other nodes, so you can then have a control of big enough percentage of the nodes so you can spy the transactions with good enough success.

Again, since transactions are fragmented into small pieces and then sent through the network, this attack would not be effective.  The attacker could try to spy the network, but the truth of the matter is that the remaining good nodes are still going to end up handling the transactions, however few they may be.  But again, since every single wallet is a node, I just don't see this attack being feasible.

How can you tell which nodes are good and which nodes are spying? You can't.

If a bad node/spying node makes an attempt on the funds, or if it refuses to sign off on the transaction, the funds go on to the next good node.

[fluffypony]

I don't have deep enough understanding so I'm just throwing ideas around here. But there must be a way to distribute the count of the running nodes in trustless manner (similar to how the blockchain is distributed) without every wallet having to go and ping every masternode. This would obviously mean that the implementation wouldn't be so straightforward anymore. And, the count is needed only before doing the denomination, which could be once a day, or once a week for most users.

I'll but in with my thoughts on that, if I may:

You'd have to get the MasterNodes to do the consensus finding, as you don't want to have a scenario where individual nodes can be enumerated (eg. by them randomly pinging 2 MasterNodes and then finding consensus with their peer group). The problem is that a superpeer group broadcasting consensus is still effectively centralised (eg. what's your outlier cut-off for network state among the superpeers? well, then that's all that's needed to confuse consensus...whereas with Bitcoin you need to own 51% of the network). It also doesn't let you know if a compromise event occurs. If, for instance, there are 50% of the nodes hosted on Amazon infrastructure (a likely event if the resources required exceeds that available in most virtualised environments), how would you know if Amazon was subpoena'd and the FBI or the NSA or whoever had access to >50% of the MasterNodes? Knowing their up/down status is one thing, knowing if the host OS their VPS is running on is compromised or not is another entirely.

[synechist]

You're right about Cryptonote coins. I should've worded my statement more carefully.

My opinion of Cryptonote is that it causes an unworkable degree of blockchain bloat - so much so that it's unlikely to scale even on PCs, never mind on mobile phones. Boolberry have made hotly disputed claims about being able to reduce bloat, but to my knowledge this has not been implemented yet.

If a coin bloats, then in my opinion it should not be considered "workable", since it simply can't scale to mainstream (or even sizeable niche) adoption.

So although there's a clear sense in which Cryptonote coins are "working", there's also a clear sense in which they're not workable solutions.


XC, on the other hand, is designed from the ground up for mobile. It's eminently scalable.

I'm confused, are you suggesting that mobile devices will run a full node? That seems ill-advised for XC or Monero or any other cryptocurrency.

Some mobile devices will run with a full node. They'll stake and everything.

Other devices (say, dumbphones) that can't run a node will end up using PoBC. The basic idea is:
- dumbphone node contacts other nodes
- provably establishes that the other nodes' blockchains are legit
- thereby proves that a given tx is legit


Why would you say that this is ill-advised? In my view mobile-friendliness is absolutely critical to mainstream adoption.

[synechist]

There'll be absolutely masses of running nodes on XC's network.

Because of XChat:

https://i.imgur.com/D57dl0F.jpg

I don't get it but ok I guess. 

If people can only use their wallets to make payments or to stake, there's no incentive to run them that often.

However if your wallet has XChat, that is, true P2P instant messaging with end-to-end encryption and IP obfuscation, then you'll use it a whole lot more often. You'll use it every time you chat to someone.

So there'll be larger percentage of XC nodes running at any given point due to XChat.

[synechist]

The goal when ddos'ing nodes is to first set up many nodes yourself, then ddos the other nodes, so you can then have a control of big enough percentage of the nodes so you can spy the transactions with good enough success.

Again, since transactions are fragmented into small pieces and then sent through the network, this attack would not be effective.  The attacker could try to spy the network, but the truth of the matter is that the remaining good nodes are still going to end up handling the transactions, however few they may be.  But again, since every single wallet is a node, I just don't see this attack being feasible.

How can you tell which nodes are good and which nodes are spying? You can't.

You can't spy productively on XC nodes because private transactions are fragmented and because every node forwards them trustless. This creates a scenario where there's no telling if the sender/recipient of a fragment is the original sender or final recipient, and there's no telling whether the amount sent is the whole amount.

Furthermore since fragments can be sent, even non-private transactions become "private" in this respect, since the amount sent could be a fragment, and so a spy has no grounds to assert that the amount sent/received is the total amount, or that the sender/recipient is the original sender/final recipient.

[rethink-your-strategy]

Some mobile devices will run with a full node. They'll stake and everything.

Other devices (say, dumbphones) that can't run a node will end up using PoBC. The basic idea is:
- dumbphone node contacts other nodes
- provably establishes that the other nodes' blockchains are legit
- thereby proves that a given tx is legit


Why would you say that this is ill-advised? In my view mobile-friendliness is absolutely critical to mainstream adoption.

Why reinvent the wheel? Just use Electrum (open source!) or SPV.

[battbot]

Some mobile devices will run with a full node. They'll stake and everything.

Other devices (say, dumbphones) that can't run a node will end up using PoBC. The basic idea is:
- dumbphone node contacts other nodes
- provably establishes that the other nodes' blockchains are legit
- thereby proves that a given tx is legit


Why would you say that this is ill-advised? In my view mobile-friendliness is absolutely critical to mainstream adoption.

Why reinvent the wheel? Just use Electrum (open source!) or SPV.

Probably because XC offers both completely anonymous transactions and instant p2p encrypted messaging.  In other words, XC offers a complete platform that protects one's rights to privacy.  Bye NSA.

[FreedomCoin]

This is not a discuses anyone more ... everyone is just throwing his coin in here and trying to advertise so their coin gets pumped how pathetic is this really... Please stay on the topic and let us only focus on DARKCOIN and CLOAKCOIN. Can we do this ? Thank you

I feel we should discuss any Anon coin as long as its related to similar protocols so they are comparable.. If you want a thread on a one vs one, then i suggest you create a self moderated topic so you can do that.

[PowderMonkey]

This is not a discuses anyone more ... everyone is just throwing his coin in here and trying to advertise so their coin gets pumped how pathetic is this really... Please stay on the topic and let us only focus on DARKCOIN and CLOAKCOIN. Can we do this ? Thank you

I feel we should discuss any Anon coin as long as its related to similar protocols so they are comparable.. If you want a thread on a one vs one, then i suggest you create a self moderated topic so you can do that.

Then you don't understood why we made this thread in the first place....

Ummm.. maybe I'm missing something, but seeing that he's the OP, I'm sure he does lol.

Not sure what your goal is but there's good discussion going on here, and your Willy Wonka videos etc aren't really adding useful info to the conversation.

[synechist]

This is not a discuses anyone more ... everyone is just throwing his coin in here and trying to advertise so their coin gets pumped how pathetic is this really... Please stay on the topic and let us only focus on DARKCOIN and CLOAKCOIN. Can we do this ? Thank you

I feel we should discuss any Anon coin as long as its related to similar protocols so they are comparable.. If you want a thread on a one vs one, then i suggest you create a self moderated topic so you can do that.

Then you don't understood why we made this thread in the first place....

If there's general consensus that this thread should only be concerned with Cloak and DRK then I'm quite happy to not talk about XC. I have no intention of irritating you guys.

On the other hand, if there's a general interest in viable anon systems - since Cloak and DRK are hardly the only significant contenders - then I'd say that discussing XC is pretty valuable.

[Sleepyx]

This is not a discuses anyone more ... everyone is just throwing his coin in here and trying to advertise so their coin gets pumped how pathetic is this really... Please stay on the topic and let us only focus on DARKCOIN and CLOAKCOIN. Can we do this ? Thank you

I feel we should discuss any Anon coin as long as its related to similar protocols so they are comparable.. If you want a thread on a one vs one, then i suggest you create a self moderated topic so you can do that.

Then you don't understood why you made this thread in the first place....

lol

[policymaker]

This is not a discuses anyone more ... everyone is just throwing his coin in here and trying to advertise so their coin gets pumped how pathetic is this really... Please stay on the topic and let us only focus on DARKCOIN and CLOAKCOIN. Can we do this ? Thank you

I feel we should discuss any Anon coin as long as its related to similar protocols so they are comparable.. If you want a thread on a one vs one, then i suggest you create a self moderated topic so you can do that.

always nice to know ur OP isnt braindead

[FreedomCoin]

This is not a discuses anyone more ... everyone is just throwing his coin in here and trying to advertise so their coin gets pumped how pathetic is this really... Please stay on the topic and let us only focus on DARKCOIN and CLOAKCOIN. Can we do this ? Thank you

I feel we should discuss any Anon coin as long as its related to similar protocols so they are comparable.. If you want a thread on a one vs one, then i suggest you create a self moderated topic so you can do that.

Then you don't understood why we made this thread in the first place....

Since this is not a moderated thread its going to be too difficult policing what people are discussing. I do not have the time for that, if you feel that is an important discussion please create one, and feel free to post a link in this thread so others can discuss Dark and Cloak coin centric issues.

Yes originally i was going for just Cloak and Dark, but stopping others from talking about other coins is too difficult.

Having an open discussion across all Anon coins in a thread isnt a bad idea, that way they can all be compared in the same place.. instead of having to thread jump between 5 or more coins.

[hoertest]

This is not a discuses anyone more ... everyone is just throwing his coin in here and trying to advertise so their coin gets pumped how pathetic is this really... Please stay on the topic and let us only focus on DARKCOIN and CLOAKCOIN. Can we do this ? Thank you

I feel we should discuss any Anon coin as long as its related to similar protocols so they are comparable.. If you want a thread on a one vs one, then i suggest you create a self moderated topic so you can do that.

Yeah , i didn't want to spam but thats how i understood it also, you seen my pro con list for OP FreedomCoin?

[rethink-your-strategy]

Why reinvent the wheel? Just use Electrum (open source!) or SPV.

Probably because XC offers both completely anonymous transactions and instant p2p encrypted messaging.  In other words, XC offers a complete platform that protects one's rights to privacy.  Bye NSA.

I don't think you understand what the adults are talking about. Go watch your cartoons and we can talk later, ok?

[FreedomCoin]

There was a clear talk that both coin community's agreed that we would make a external thread so we can talk everything inside this that have to do with Darkcoin and cloakcoin because of the fud and spam we/you get in the main thread and the darkcoin "jokers" are crying why we delete their posts.

Yes you are correct, that was the plan. But policing the thread is not my style, nor can i do so on a work day handling everything else i am doing. Sorry for changing the direction of this thread.... Feel free to create a new self moderated thread and link it here.

[FreedomCoin]

Does anyone know if Darknet sites are accepting these Anon coins?

[Sleepyx]

Does anyone know if Darknet sites are accepting these Anon coins?

Theres one that says they will add them, both dark and cloak, once they are open source, they can't trust anything while its closed.

[oblox]

Does anyone know if Darknet sites are accepting these Anon coins?

Probably not going to see a ton of acceptance until sources are released and the code vetted that they do in fact provide the anonymity that users are looking for.

[FreedomCoin]

Makes sense, and for the sites that use escrow they do not want their used coin to collapse and then people asking what happened to the funds.

[illodin]

The goal when ddos'ing nodes is to first set up many nodes yourself, then ddos the other nodes, so you can then have a control of big enough percentage of the nodes so you can spy the transactions with good enough success.

Again, since transactions are fragmented into small pieces and then sent through the network, this attack would not be effective.  The attacker could try to spy the network, but the truth of the matter is that the remaining good nodes are still going to end up handling the transactions, however few they may be.  But again, since every single wallet is a node, I just don't see this attack being feasible.

How can you tell which nodes are good and which nodes are spying? You can't.

You can't spy productively on XC nodes because private transactions are fragmented and because every node forwards them trustless. This creates a scenario where there's no telling if the sender/recipient of a fragment is the original sender or final recipient, and there's no telling whether the amount sent is the whole amount.

Furthermore since fragments can be sent, even non-private transactions become "private" in this respect, since the amount sent could be a fragment, and so a spy has no grounds to assert that the amount sent/received is the total amount, or that the sender/recipient is the original sender/final recipient.

If the attacker is controlling nodes A and B, and they both receive fragments (= XC encrypted messages?) from the same IP at the same time, he knows that is the IP of the sender, not another node forwarding fragments. And if the attacker is controlling all nodes in a path starting from A or B, he knows the sending and receiving addresses. Or is this totally wrong?

[synechist]

The goal when ddos'ing nodes is to first set up many nodes yourself, then ddos the other nodes, so you can then have a control of big enough percentage of the nodes so you can spy the transactions with good enough success.

Again, since transactions are fragmented into small pieces and then sent through the network, this attack would not be effective.  The attacker could try to spy the network, but the truth of the matter is that the remaining good nodes are still going to end up handling the transactions, however few they may be.  But again, since every single wallet is a node, I just don't see this attack being feasible.

How can you tell which nodes are good and which nodes are spying? You can't.

You can't spy productively on XC nodes because private transactions are fragmented and because every node forwards them trustless. This creates a scenario where there's no telling if the sender/recipient of a fragment is the original sender or final recipient, and there's no telling whether the amount sent is the whole amount.

Furthermore since fragments can be sent, even non-private transactions become "private" in this respect, since the amount sent could be a fragment, and so a spy has no grounds to assert that the amount sent/received is the total amount, or that the sender/recipient is the original sender/final recipient.

If the attacker is controlling nodes A and B, and they both receive fragments (= XC encrypted messages?) from the same IP at the same time, he knows that is the IP of the sender, not another node forwarding fragments. And if the attacker is controlling all nodes in a path starting from A or B, he knows the sending and receiving addresses. Or is this totally wrong?

Hmm... let's say that an attacker controlling two nodes receives fragments from a single other node at the same time:

- the node's IP will be concealed due to it being either on TOR or something proprietary which I can't reveal yet. (TOR is current - the XC TOR Stick is releasing on Thur next week; it's its own OS, runs as a TOR node, and does payments and XChat. However in future there are other, even more secure plans...)

- the node will be identifiable as the sender of the fragments

- the node will not be identifiable as the originator of the payment that the fragments partly comprise

- the node will not be identifiable as the sender of the payment

- if it's a message rather than a private payment, it's not forwarded but sent directly to the recipient and encrypted from end to end, so to snoop on it you'd need to decrypt it (which is computationally infeasible).

- even if attacker nodes happen to receive all the fragments of a transaction, there will be no way to know that this is the case, and so the amount sent will not be ascertainable.

[illodin]

- the node will be identifiable as the sender of the fragments

- the node will not be identifiable as the originator of the payment that the fragments partly comprise

So any node within a path can divide it to further fragments? This mean that the node count involved in a path grows exponentially?

[synechist]

- the node will be identifiable as the sender of the fragments

- the node will not be identifiable as the originator of the payment that the fragments partly comprise

So any node within a path can divide it to further fragments? This mean that the node count involved in a path grows exponentially?

No, it just means that any given node can't tell whether what it's received is the original transaction or a fragment.

[policymaker]

- the node will be identifiable as the sender of the fragments

- the node will not be identifiable as the originator of the payment that the fragments partly comprise

So any node within a path can divide it to further fragments? This mean that the node count involved in a path grows exponentially?

No, it just means that any given node can't tell whether what it's received is the original transaction or a fragment.

So XC teamm announced its working on making the wallet/app Skype like, albeit totally anonymous and decentralized. Surely that must be worth some looking into. But no, lets argue whether s topic should be moderated or not...

[rethink-your-strategy]

So XC teamm announced its working on making the wallet/app Skype like, albeit totally anonymous and decentralized. Surely that must be worth some looking into. But no, lets argue whether s topic should be moderated or not...

I can announce all sorts of bullshit, doesn't make it viable, workable, or even doable. Let's wait and see if they deliver on something that works AND is cryptographically sound.

[policymaker]

So XC teamm announced its working on making the wallet/app Skype like, albeit totally anonymous and decentralized. Surely that must be worth some looking into. But no, lets argue whether s topic should be moderated or not...

I can announce all sorts of bullshit, doesn't make it viable, workable, or even doable. Let's wait and see if they deliver on something that works AND is cryptographically sound.

your concerns are legit, but if you had been keeping an eye on the team for the past 2 months, like many holders did, you would know this is something not to be taken lightly. XC team is probably among the 2 or 3 teams actually treating this as legit software on the making, providing updates and delivering on several fronts, + some surprises.

[synechist]

So XC teamm announced its working on making the wallet/app Skype like, albeit totally anonymous and decentralized. Surely that must be worth some looking into. But no, lets argue whether s topic should be moderated or not...

I can announce all sorts of bullshit, doesn't make it viable, workable, or even doable. Let's wait and see if they deliver on something that works AND is cryptographically sound.

Just go download Rev 2.45 or XChat RC 6 and see for yourself. Both work, and both are and will continue to be tested (with bounties).

I'm not sure how high your standards are but the goal is for XC to be bulletproof by Rev 3. And at their current (early) stage of development XC is solid, and working.

Lastly if you keep up with the XC team you'll know that these future-oriented announcements are not said lightly. We're under a lot of pressure because people's expectations are very high; the price will crash very hard if we're even late for an update, never mind if we were to fail. So we do not make promises we're not confident we can deliver on.

[rethink-your-strategy]

Just go download Rev 2.45 or XChat RC 6 and see for yourself. Both work, and both are and will continue to be tested (with bounties).

I'm not sure how high your standards are but the goal is for XC to be bulletproof by Rev 3. And at their current (early) stage of development XC is solid, and working.

Lastly if you keep up with the XC team you'll know that these future-oriented announcements are not said lightly. We're under a lot of pressure because people's expectations are very high; the price will crash very hard if we're even late for an update, never mind if we were to fail. So we do not make promises we're not confident we can deliver on.

All I see on the site are binaries - is it closed source???

[synechist]

Just go download Rev 2.45 or XChat RC 6 and see for yourself. Both work, and both are and will continue to be tested (with bounties).

I'm not sure how high your standards are but the goal is for XC to be bulletproof by Rev 3. And at their current (early) stage of development XC is solid, and working.

Lastly if you keep up with the XC team you'll know that these future-oriented announcements are not said lightly. We're under a lot of pressure because people's expectations are very high; the price will crash very hard if we're even late for an update, never mind if we were to fail. So we do not make promises we're not confident we can deliver on.

All I see on the site are binaries - is it closed source???

No.

XC recently released the code for the Rev 1 (trusted) mixer (which KeyCoin has happily adopted).

XC is currently using its Rev 2 trustless mixer (which is a world-first).

Here's XC's stance on open-source:

Q:  Is XC open sourced? 

A:  XC is committed to the open source model. Open source code is vital for the health and advancement of cryptographic technologies, and it is a privilege to share our technical breakthroughs with a community such as this. We believe that XC's code embodies several world-firsts enabling anonymity that is scalable, mobile-friendly, POS-integrated, and is ultimately a platform upon which a broad range of Blockchain 2.0 technologies will be built.

However people’s faith in cryptocurrency projects is significantly hindered by clones. Therefore we believe that the ethical way to engage with the community is to make our code available on a delayed timeline. This way, the community will still benefit from our work, while we'd reduce the incentive for developers to flood the marketplace with clones that lack a long term future and reduce the trustworthiness of the altcoin phenomenon. XC represents several market-leading innovations, and we are honoured to make these available to the community in the near future.

http://xc-official.com/faq-page/

[MasterMined710]

Darkcoin (pow) is the number 1 anon coin followed by bitshares x (dpos) (titan).
Delegated Proof of Stake - Let's Talk Bitcoin Episode 129
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdBpoRLmrbA&list=WL#t=726

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/TITAN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDvXZMQNnhE

after xc and cloaks posa were decloaked i'm really surprised people are still even buying them. to be fair people are not buying xc anymore and cloak just started its dump phase.
https://darkcointalk.org/threads/cloaksend-2-0-posa-fake-or-legit.1868/

Cloakcoin:

Pros:

Trading volume is much higher around 3 times the amount.

This higher volume has only been for 2 days. yesterday (the pump) and today (the dump).

Cons:
POS rollback coin



Dark Coin:


Cons:

Uses a CoinJoin clone for anon trading of coins. Which has been shown to have flaws, see “CoinJoinSudoku”. http://www.coinjoinsudoku.com/advisory/

A More accurate description would be that darksend (working with 10 drk limit) uses a advanced denominated coinjoin implementation that has not been cracked. Darksend+ (early aug release scheduled) goes way deeper and will provide the best most secure  long term choice for anon compared to everything currently working and the proposed vaporware from competition. i put bitshares x (working anon)  2nd because it is a pos coin. the working anon and the dpos sets it apart from the problems of old ppc/nxt pos based coins like cloak & xc.



XCurrency:


Cons:

Hard to tell what is vaporware claims and what is actually working in gui wallet.

[MasterMined710]

I am curious how long it will take to send and receive coins when going through 8 MNs. Seeing RC4 live should answer that.

The Darkcoin client will now store pre-mixed, denominated Darkcoins in the user’s wallet, to be used instantly at any time the user desires. The mixing and denomination process is seamless, automatic, and requires no intervention on the part of the user. The 10 DRK limit previously in place with Darksend v1 will be permanently removed.
https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-updates-july-15th.1788/

[MasterMined710]

- XC is the only project with an already-implemented anonymity solution that is currently working.

is it working? last i saw a few weeks ago it was not working in the gui wallet (still command line, right?). after the odd midnight rev release a few weeks ago i quit watching that thread. please update me if that has changed.

[MasterMined710]

Does Dark, Cloak, XC and Monero have an advanced difficulty retargeting system?

yes, darkcoin has dgw which i have been very impressed with. cloak and xc are pos and i don't follow the cryptobloat coins as they have no future for the many reasons already listed.

[policymaker]

How on earth was XC "decloaked" ? It has nothing to do with cloakcoin or its tech. There will be no problem with bloating blockchain, and the reason the anon rev is stalled for gui is because the encrypted messaging was being worked. There have been many releases since "a few weeks ago". Don't take my words for it, if you consider yourself an intelligent individual just go search the topic and official XC forums for yourself, but don't just throw FUD around like that.

[MasterMined710]

All of the CryptoNote coins do (Monero, Boolberry, Bytecoin (BCN) etc.) They have working anonymity from their launch. If you take Bytecoin's claim at face value (it's pretty clear it's bullshit) they have been around for 2 years. Even knowing that it's likely a false claim meant to cover up their 82% premine, you still come face-to-face with an indisputable fact: Bytecoin's first commit to github was on 15 November 2013, and already then the code worked and provided cryptographically untraceable and unlinkable transactions. Monero, too, was launched (fairly) on 18 April 2014, before XC even came into existence.

As much as I think Bytecoin is a fail because of their premine, they are the ONLY ones that can lay claim to having the FIRST "working anonymity". Monero and the all the other CryptoNote coins can lay claim to being the ONLY cryptocurrencies that currently have a 100% working solution to cryptographically untraceable and unlinkable transactions.

If you don't believe me, pick any transaction on the Monero blockchain (eg. http://monerochain.info/tx/49ee290a4e65bc554382089d778c1ac26b20a5b6044d3fa4b1767780e2617546) and try figure out the address of the person that sent the coins, the address of the person they were sending to, and they amount. I'll gladly even setup two wallets and transfer between them and give you the transaction ID to give it a try. Oh and these transactions are instantaneous, no waiting for a mixing hop to finish or anything.

what about the scalability problem from bloating and the mass adoption issue of non provable transactions. seems like those issues would prevent mass adoption.

[MasterMined710]

it also means that a bad actor can setup (or compromise) just a single masternode in order to identify the IP address of every single node.

looks like darksend+ solves that previous issue with darksend...
https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-updates-july-15th.1788/

add ip obfuscation on top of that and done...
https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-update-july-30th.1924/#post-13924

[MasterMined710]

There'll be absolutely masses of running nodes on XC's network.

Because of XChat:

https://i.imgur.com/D57dl0F.jpg

I don't get it but ok I guess. 

I don't get it either. i have no want or need to use xchat. not a feature i would use unless send payment in which case i would just use bitshares x which is working and not promised vapor.

[MasterMined710]

You can't spy productively on XC nodes because private transactions are fragmented and because every node forwards them trustless. This creates a scenario where there's no telling if the sender/recipient of a fragment is the original sender or final recipient, and there's no telling whether the amount sent is the whole amount.

Furthermore since fragments can be sent, even non-private transactions become "private" in this respect, since the amount sent could be a fragment, and so a spy has no grounds to assert that the amount sent/received is the total amount, or that the sender/recipient is the original sender/final recipient.

"You can't" or you won't be able to when rev 3 is released? you're talking vaporware right now right? when will this be released?

[MasterMined710]

XC offers both completely anonymous transactions and instant p2p encrypted messaging.  In other words, XC offers a complete platform that protects one's rights to privacy.  Bye NSA.

working or vaporware? when is all this stuff supposed to happen, rev 3? release date?

[MasterMined710]

If, for instance, there are 50% of the nodes hosted on Amazon infrastructure (a likely event if the resources required exceeds that available in most virtualised environments), how would you know if Amazon was subpoena'd and the FBI or the NSA or whoever had access to >50% of the MasterNodes? Knowing their up/down status is one thing, knowing if the host OS their VPS is running on is compromised or not is another entirely.

it won't matter with darksend+ (early aug release).
https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-updates-july-15th.1788/

add ip obfuscation on top of that and done...
https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-update-july-30th.1924/#post-13924

[MasterMined710]

How on earth was XC "decloaked" ? It has nothing to do with cloakcoin or its tech. There will be no problem with bloating blockchain, and the reason the anon rev is stalled for gui is because the encrypted messaging was being worked. There have been many releases since "a few weeks ago". Don't take my words for it, if you consider yourself an intelligent individual just go search the topic and official XC forums for yourself, but don't just throw FUD around like that.

xc anon was cracked by chaeplin but they are redoing it now. i don't have time to keep up with xc anymore and have moved on, sorry. it's too hard to tell what they have working and what is just more vapor. they talk like everything is working but all i see is vapor. please educate me to what is working now and what is just planned for release (rev 3) and when. good to see they have some bounties unlike cloak.

[policymaker]

How on earth was XC "decloaked" ? It has nothing to do with cloakcoin or its tech. There will be no problem with bloating blockchain, and the reason the anon rev is stalled for gui is because the encrypted messaging was being worked. There have been many releases since "a few weeks ago". Don't take my words for it, if you consider yourself an intelligent individual just go search the topic and official XC forums for yourself, but don't just throw FUD around like that.

xc anon was cracked by chaeplin but they are redoing it now. i don't have time to keep up with xc anymore and have moved on, sorry. it's too hard to tell what they have working and what is just more vapor. they talk like everything is working but all i see is vapor. please educate me to what is working now and what is just planned for release (rev 3) and when. good to see they have some bounties unlike cloak.

wtf are you talking about. you either clearly have been out of the scene for too long, or just plain fuding, and badly that is.

XC and Dark dev released same statement that FUD wars have to stop. XC and DKR communities havent been shitting each other for like almost a month now.

Apart from that, I won't "educate" you, for two reasons: For once, you are not willing to acknowledge anything, its not the first time I ve seen a troll here. In addition, if you would kindly check one or two pages back, you would find everything you asked for, with links and analysis by synechist, a real member of the XC team. Nothing is vapor, but then again, go check it yourself.

And one last thing, chaeplin never really cracked the REV1 anonymity, but what he did back then is completely irrelevant to what we have now, with XC being on rev2.45, its tech is just ahead of competition, and frankly much more better than REV1. Not to mention that, cheaplin has actually been quite helpful since then, sharing some DKR guides that can be applied to XC wallet users thanx to nodes technology.

And we couldnt care less whether you have time for XC, we just dont need you infesting the board with May-FUD. Geez.

[MasterMined710]

How on earth was XC "decloaked" ? It has nothing to do with cloakcoin or its tech. There will be no problem with bloating blockchain, and the reason the anon rev is stalled for gui is because the encrypted messaging was being worked. There have been many releases since "a few weeks ago". Don't take my words for it, if you consider yourself an intelligent individual just go search the topic and official XC forums for yourself, but don't just throw FUD around like that.

xc anon was cracked by chaeplin but they are redoing it now. i don't have time to keep up with xc anymore and have moved on, sorry. it's too hard to tell what they have working and what is just more vapor. they talk like everything is working but all i see is vapor. please educate me to what is working now and what is just planned for release (rev 3) and when. good to see they have some bounties unlike cloak.

wtf are you talking about. you either clearly have been out of the scene for too long, or just plain fuding, and badly that is.

XC and Dark dev released same statement that FUD wars have to stop. XC and DKR communities havent been shitting each other for like almost a month now.

Apart from that, I won't "educate" you, for two reasons: For once, you are not willing to acknowledge anything, its not the first time I ve seen a troll here. In addition, if you would kindly check one or two pages back, you would find everything you asked for, with links and analysis by synechist, a real member of the XC team. Nothing is vapor, but then again, go check it yourself.

And one last thing, chaeplin never really cracked the REV1 anonymity, but what he did back then is completely irrelevant to what we have now, with XC being on rev2.45, its tech is just ahead of competition, and frankly much more better than REV1. Not to mention that, cheaplin has actually been quite helpful since then, sharing some DKR guides that can be applied to XC wallet users thanx to nodes technology.

And we couldnt care less whether you have time for XC, we just dont need you infesting the board with May-FUD. Geez.

this is why i unwatched the xc thread and moved on, no solid answers to be had. good luck with your project. maybe someone more informed will opine. my main issue is telling vapor from working features and solid release dates for claimed features.

[policymaker]

How on earth was XC "decloaked" ? It has nothing to do with cloakcoin or its tech. There will be no problem with bloating blockchain, and the reason the anon rev is stalled for gui is because the encrypted messaging was being worked. There have been many releases since "a few weeks ago". Don't take my words for it, if you consider yourself an intelligent individual just go search the topic and official XC forums for yourself, but don't just throw FUD around like that.

xc anon was cracked by chaeplin but they are redoing it now. i don't have time to keep up with xc anymore and have moved on, sorry. it's too hard to tell what they have working and what is just more vapor. they talk like everything is working but all i see is vapor. please educate me to what is working now and what is just planned for release (rev 3) and when. good to see they have some bounties unlike cloak.

wtf are you talking about. you either clearly have been out of the scene for too long, or just plain fuding, and badly that is.

XC and Dark dev released same statement that FUD wars have to stop. XC and DKR communities havent been shitting each other for like almost a month now.

Apart from that, I won't "educate" you, for two reasons: For once, you are not willing to acknowledge anything, its not the first time I ve seen a troll here. In addition, if you would kindly check one or two pages back, you would find everything you asked for, with links and analysis by synechist, a real member of the XC team. Nothing is vapor, but then again, go check it yourself.

And one last thing, chaeplin never really cracked the REV1 anonymity, but what he did back then is completely irrelevant to what we have now, with XC being on rev2.45, its tech is just ahead of competition, and frankly much more better than REV1. Not to mention that, cheaplin has actually been quite helpful since then, sharing some DKR guides that can be applied to XC wallet users thanx to nodes technology.

And we couldnt care less whether you have time for XC, we just dont need you infesting the board with May-FUD. Geez.

this is why i unwatched the xc thread and moved on, no solid answers to be had. good luck with your project. maybe someone more informed will opine. my main issue is telling vapor from working features and solid release dates for claimed features.

I admit im not qualified to answer tech questions, but everything you seek can be found in synechist answers' and XC OP. Its all there provided to you by synechist himself in the previous page. Stop being a tool and check it out, your FUD attempt is disgusting!

[Coolstoryteller]

Just a heads up on MasterMind710. He's responsible for the Cloak FUD subreddits and most of the baseless comments in the sections of Cloak related articles and videos. The only thing backing up his claims is his investment in DRK masternodes..

Moving forward.

1)
Since when is the right to privacy of developers a CON? Cloak developers have done more in the last month than most other coins have done in the last nine. Please explain to me how advocates of anon technology also advocate that developers reveal themselves in order for their work to be taking seriously. If you believe anon to be a negative factor in development, then the same argument will be made later down the road for merchants using anonymous currencies. Remember Satoshi was a fellow anon. Just because a new altcoin popped up with developers willing to expose themselves doesn't mean it is a recipe for success; Morever, this should not validate their work or their abilities.

I would hope the OP would reconsider his criteria for PRO/CON in relation to personal privacy.

2)
Please show me at least one alt-coin that has invested money into a high-level independent audit - closed or open. I'm not talking about Kristov Atlas, I'm saying a real authoritative audit from a place like www.opencryptoaudit.org. These places are backed up 3-5 months in advance and the costs are upwards of $50k+. It's comes out to around $5,000+ a week per auditor. It's one thing to sit in this forum and play armchair auditor it's another thing to do it for a living. I'm an investor for Cloak and I'm willing to fund 100% of the independent audit for PoSA. I doubt anyone here is willing to do the same for their investment. I'm already speaking with various candidates and their results will eventually be made public when finished. Dagger, the project lead for Cloak clocks in 20+hour days as do the others on the team. This type of commitment is all I need to validate my investment in a professional audit. The crypto space is one of the most vile and disgusting communities on the internet. Shameless promotions and baseless accusations are all the norm here. Innovation is ripped from another coin and re-branded almost the same day the source is published. It's not a surprise that developers who innovate are moving to more of a closed source development cycle to protect their investors.

Pony up and do the same for your coin because once these results come in your internal reviews won't hold a candle to Cloaks.

3)
A detailed diagram has been released that outlines the inner workings of the Proof-Of-Stake Anon (PoSA) protocol. There is a public beta available for Cloak's PoSA. Feel free to join the IRC #CloakCoin. There are 7 core developers working on Cloak in addition to 5 other developers working on supporting projects. Anyone of them is available to answer questions. There is a diagram on the way that will be easier to read for those who have trouble understanding this one.

Update:

There's been quite a lot of pressure for us to release in greater details, information about our finished anon product.

The whitepaper was deliberately made sparse to avoid attempts at copying from an early stage.

Cloak PoSA is well advanced now so we can now reveal a more indepth paper that shows how our finished Proof of Stake Anonymity system works.

PoSA is entirely trustless and solves the Byzantine Generals problem.





A first look at CloakPal coming tomorrow.

[illodin]

Just a heads up on MasterMind710. He's responsible for the Cloak FUD subreddits and most of the baseless comments in the sections of Cloak related articles and videos. The only thing backing up his claims is his investment in DRK masternodes..

No idea if this is true but MasterMind710 please let's try to keep at least this thread readable and more "technical".

[SomethingElse]

They all suck. I'm waiting for a real wallet/mixing service/coin. 

[stealth923]

Just a heads up on MasterMind710. He's responsible for the Cloak FUD subreddits and most of the baseless comments in the sections of Cloak related articles and videos. The only thing backing up his claims is his investment in DRK masternodes..

Moving forward.

1)
Since when is the right to privacy of developers a CON? Cloak developers have done more in the last month than most other coins have done in the last nine. Please explain to me how advocates of anon technology also advocate that developers reveal themselves in order for their work to be taking seriously. If you believe anon to be a negative factor in development, then the same argument will be made later down the road for merchants using anonymous currencies. Remember Satoshi was a fellow anon. Just because a new altcoin popped up with developers willing to expose themselves doesn't mean it is a recipe for success; Morever, this should not validate their work or their abilities.

I would hope the OP would reconsider his criteria for PRO/CON in relation to personal privacy.

2)
Please show me at least one alt-coin that has invested money into a high-level independent audit - closed or open. I'm not talking about Kristov Atlas, I'm saying a real authoritative audit from a place like www.opencryptoaudit.org. These places are backed up 3-5 months in advance and the costs are upwards of $50k+. It's comes out to around $5,000+ a week per auditor. It's one thing to sit in this forum and play armchair auditor it's another thing to do it for a living. I'm an investor for Cloak and I'm willing to fund 100% of the independent audit for PoSA. I doubt anyone here is willing to do the same for their investment. I'm already speaking with various candidates and their results will eventually be made public when finished. Dagger, the project lead for Cloak clocks in 20+hour days as do the others on the team. This type of commitment is all I need to validate my investment in a professional audit. The crypto space is one of the most vile and disgusting communities on the internet. Shameless promotions and baseless accusations are all the norm here. Innovation is ripped from another coin and re-branded almost the same day the source is published. It's not a surprise that developers who innovate are moving to more of a closed source development cycle to protect their investors.

Pony up and do the same for your coin because once these results come in your internal reviews won't hold a candle to Cloaks.

3)
A detailed diagram has been released that outlines the inner workings of the Proof-Of-Stake Anon (PoSA) protocol. There is a public beta available for Cloak's PoSA. Feel free to join the IRC #CloakCoin. There are 7 core developers working on Cloak in addition to 5 other developers working on supporting projects. Anyone of them is available to answer questions. There is a diagram on the way that will be easier to read for those who have trouble understanding this one.

Update:

There's been quite a lot of pressure for us to release in greater details, information about our finished anon product.

The whitepaper was deliberately made sparse to avoid attempts at copying from an early stage.

Cloak PoSA is well advanced now so we can now reveal a more indepth paper that shows how our finished Proof of Stake Anonymity system works.

PoSA is entirely trustless and solves the Byzantine Generals problem.

1) There are so many scams in the altcoin world - anonymous devs usually now have something to hide. If you have the skills and experience to code something this complex you had better have the experience and industry experience to back it up. My opinion is that cloak dev's are high school kids based on their basic attempts at diagrams and immature non-professional language, meaning they have limited experience in the corporate world.

2) I call utter bullshit, I will organise escrow right now if you are willing to fund the 50k+ review for cloak. You might as well throw it down the drain. Additionally you wouldn't even be considered with that hilarious diagram, do you even know the pre-requisites required for a review board. I guess not.

3) Please head over to this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=713836.msg8130099#msg8130099 where there are already flaws being discussed in the diagram and how trivial it really is.

[Coolstoryteller]

Just a heads up on MasterMind710. He's responsible for the Cloak FUD subreddits and most of the baseless comments in the sections of Cloak related articles and videos. The only thing backing up his claims is his investment in DRK masternodes..

Moving forward.

1)
Since when is the right to privacy of developers a CON? Cloak developers have done more in the last month than most other coins have done in the last nine. Please explain to me how advocates of anon technology also advocate that developers reveal themselves in order for their work to be taking seriously. If you believe anon to be a negative factor in development, then the same argument will be made later down the road for merchants using anonymous currencies. Remember Satoshi was a fellow anon. Just because a new altcoin popped up with developers willing to expose themselves doesn't mean it is a recipe for success; Morever, this should not validate their work or their abilities.

I would hope the OP would reconsider his criteria for PRO/CON in relation to personal privacy.

2)
Please show me at least one alt-coin that has invested money into a high-level independent audit - closed or open. I'm not talking about Kristov Atlas, I'm saying a real authoritative audit from a place like www.opencryptoaudit.org. These places are backed up 3-5 months in advance and the costs are upwards of $50k+. It's comes out to around $5,000+ a week per auditor. It's one thing to sit in this forum and play armchair auditor it's another thing to do it for a living. I'm an investor for Cloak and I'm willing to fund 100% of the independent audit for PoSA. I doubt anyone here is willing to do the same for their investment. I'm already speaking with various candidates and their results will eventually be made public when finished. Dagger, the project lead for Cloak clocks in 20+hour days as do the others on the team. This type of commitment is all I need to validate my investment in a professional audit. The crypto space is one of the most vile and disgusting communities on the internet. Shameless promotions and baseless accusations are all the norm here. Innovation is ripped from another coin and re-branded almost the same day the source is published. It's not a surprise that developers who innovate are moving to more of a closed source development cycle to protect their investors.

Pony up and do the same for your coin because once these results come in your internal reviews won't hold a candle to Cloaks.

3)
A detailed diagram has been released that outlines the inner workings of the Proof-Of-Stake Anon (PoSA) protocol. There is a public beta available for Cloak's PoSA. Feel free to join the IRC #CloakCoin. There are 7 core developers working on Cloak in addition to 5 other developers working on supporting projects. Anyone of them is available to answer questions. There is a diagram on the way that will be easier to read for those who have trouble understanding this one.

Update:

There's been quite a lot of pressure for us to release in greater details, information about our finished anon product.

The whitepaper was deliberately made sparse to avoid attempts at copying from an early stage.

Cloak PoSA is well advanced now so we can now reveal a more indepth paper that shows how our finished Proof of Stake Anonymity system works.

PoSA is entirely trustless and solves the Byzantine Generals problem.

1) There are so many scams in the altcoin world - anonymous devs usually now have something to hide. If you have the skills and experience to code something this complex you had better have the experience and industry experience to back it up. My opinion is that cloak dev's are high school kids based on their basic attempts at diagrams and imamture non-professional language, meaning they have limited experience in the corporate world.

2) I call utter bullshit, I will organise escrow right now if you are willing to fund the 50k+ review for cloak. You might as well throw it down the drain. Additionally you wouldn't even be considered with that hilarious diagram, do you even know the pre-requisites required for a review board. I guess not.

3) Please head over to this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=713836.msg8130099#msg8130099 where there are already flaws being discussed in the diagram and how trivial it really is.

1)
"Usually have something to hide" you might as well apply for a job with the FBI, CIA or NSA because this isn't the thread for you bud. If you think being an advocate of personal privacy is a negative concept you're in the wrong thread. Opinions are like assholes - everyone has one. All I hear from you is translated into "Blah Blah Darkcoin Blah Blah Masternodes Blah Blah Anonymous Devs = Scam Blah Blah"

2)
You can call all the bullshit all you want, it has no bearing on the situation. My money isn't going to you or anyone you organize. The diagrams and whitepapers in my possession have been sufficient to start the initial process. I'd like to know how you know anything about a professional crypto audit from an independent authority like opencryptoaudit. You still have failed to name one altcoin that has gone through a high level audit.

3)
Strasborg's self-moderated thread? I think I'll pass on that. He's an admitted Supercoin investor and that thread is a shameless promotional attempt to draw attention to Supercoin.

[stealth923]

3)
Strasborg's self-moderated thread? I think I'll pass on that. He's an admitted Supercoin investor and that thread is a shameless promotional attempt to draw attention to Supercoin.

Not going to bother with your other answers as they were all excuses and diversions as to the heart of the problem that I exposed in my original statements.

But go look in the thread for #3 dont hide away like the cloak devs......I dont care who Strasborg is, there are many other contributors now laughing at cloak and exposing how flawed the design and diagram is.

 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=713836.msg8130099#msg8130099

[illodin]

3)
Strasborg's self-moderated thread? I think I'll pass on that. He's an admitted Supercoin investor and that thread is a shameless promotional attempt to draw attention to Supercoin.

Ad hominem deluxe.

[synechist]

- XC is the only project with an already-implemented anonymity solution that is currently working.

is it working? last i saw a few weeks ago it was not working in the gui wallet (still command line, right?). after the odd midnight rev release a few weeks ago i quit watching that thread. please update me if that has changed.

It's working. Download XC Rev 2.45 here.

[synechist]

There'll be absolutely masses of running nodes on XC's network.

Because of XChat:

https://i.imgur.com/D57dl0F.jpg

I don't get it but ok I guess. 

I don't get it either. i have no want or need to use xchat. not a feature i would use unless send payment in which case i would just use bitshares x which is working and not promised vapor.

This is not vapour. It's working.

Download XChat RC 6 here, and then send me a message using the details on my sig.

[synechist]

This is not vapour. It's working.

Download XChat RC 6 here, and then send me a message using the details on my sig.

As for the future, this is vaporware that XC will bring to market post-Rev 3:

***The XC Daily Update***


Hello all

It's been confirmed by the developers that XChat will include voice calling in post-Rev 3 editions, and video calling further into the future.

So basically we have a decentralised, private, Skype.





Here's to the future!

[synechist]

You can't spy productively on XC nodes because private transactions are fragmented and because every node forwards them trustless. This creates a scenario where there's no telling if the sender/recipient of a fragment is the original sender or final recipient, and there's no telling whether the amount sent is the whole amount.

Furthermore since fragments can be sent, even non-private transactions become "private" in this respect, since the amount sent could be a fragment, and so a spy has no grounds to assert that the amount sent/received is the total amount, or that the sender/recipient is the original sender/final recipient.

"You can't" or you won't be able to when rev 3 is released? you're talking vaporware right now right? when will this be released?

My comment above refers to the existing Rev 2.45 release.

Download it, try it out.

[synechist]

There'll be absolutely masses of running nodes on XC's network.

Because of XChat:

https://i.imgur.com/D57dl0F.jpg

I don't get it but ok I guess. 

I don't get it either. i have no want or need to use xchat. not a feature i would use unless send payment in which case i would just use bitshares x which is working and not promised vapor.

This is not vapour. It's working.

Download XChat RC 6 here, and then send me a message using the details on my sig.

Just in case you're not quite convinced, here's a screenshot of XChat RC 6 (the current test release) on my computer:

[synechist]

XC offers both completely anonymous transactions and instant p2p encrypted messaging.  In other words, XC offers a complete platform that protects one's rights to privacy.  Bye NSA.

working or vaporware? when is all this stuff supposed to happen, rev 3? release date?

Once again, this stuff has happened already.


To sum it all up:

Rev 2.45 (private payments).

XChat RC 6 (true P2P instant messaging with end-to-end encryption)

XC TOR Stick (releasing on Thursday; doesn't use TOR exit nodes so packet sniffers can't find you)

[synechist]

How on earth was XC "decloaked" ? It has nothing to do with cloakcoin or its tech. There will be no problem with bloating blockchain, and the reason the anon rev is stalled for gui is because the encrypted messaging was being worked. There have been many releases since "a few weeks ago". Don't take my words for it, if you consider yourself an intelligent individual just go search the topic and official XC forums for yourself, but don't just throw FUD around like that.

xc anon was cracked by chaeplin but they are redoing it now. i don't have time to keep up with xc anymore and have moved on, sorry. it's too hard to tell what they have working and what is just more vapor. they talk like everything is working but all i see is vapor. please educate me to what is working now and what is just planned for release (rev 3) and when. good to see they have some bounties unlike cloak.

Ah, that opinion. It's old FUD. Chaeplin didn't understand what was being tested.

Here's why.

[sisx2007]

All these three coins are good,these coins can work together,there is enough room for them!

[fluffypony]

what about the scalability problem from bloating and the mass adoption issue of non provable transactions. seems like those issues would prevent mass adoption.

Ooooh, this is my area of knowledge:)

Firstly, any mixing technology will also have bloat - you understand that, right? If it goes through 8 hops that's 8 entries in the blockchain. The ONLY advantage that a cryptocurrency using mixing has is that they *can* prune the blockchain (not that they have or even necessarily know how). There is no evidence to suggest that Monero can't prune its blockchain - it absolutely can. The only thing that is currently viewed as hard-to-do-maybe-to-the-point-of-being-impossible is pruning of the key image set and the utxoset, but the blockchain itself can be pruned right up to the highest block.

I also have never heard of Monero transactions being "non-provable". If that were the case your wallet wouldn't know that a particular transaction is meant for you. It does so by "proving" it is. Baked right into the protocol is a "view key" that can be used to expose multiple transactions, and each transaction has a one-time key that can be exposed to show the details of a transaction and confirm it is yours. Monero is, thus, cryptographically anonymous and unlinkable, and optionally transparent on a per-transaction basis. NB: The tooling to both reveal this and inspect it is still being written, but every transaction from the genesis block on has been functionally anonymous and has this optional transparency baked in.

How do other coins handle this? I mean, how do you reveal a transaction in Darkcoin/XC/Cloakcoin and prove it came from you?

[salmion]

what about the scalability problem from bloating and the mass adoption issue of non provable transactions. seems like those issues would prevent mass adoption.

Ooooh, this is my area of knowledge:)

Firstly, any mixing technology will also have bloat - you understand that, right? If it goes through 8 hops that's 8 entries in the blockchain. The ONLY advantage that a cryptocurrency using mixing has is that they *can* prune the blockchain (not that they have or even necessarily know how). There is no evidence to suggest that Monero can't prune its blockchain - it absolutely can. The only thing that is currently viewed as hard-to-do-maybe-to-the-point-of-being-impossible is pruning of the key image set and the utxoset, but the blockchain itself can be pruned right up to the highest block.

I also have never heard of Monero transactions being "non-provable". If that were the case your wallet wouldn't know that a particular transaction is meant for you. It does so by "proving" it is. Baked right into the protocol is a "view key" that can be used to expose multiple transactions, and each transaction has a one-time key that can be exposed to show the details of a transaction and confirm it is yours. Monero is, thus, cryptographically anonymous and unlinkable, and optionally transparent on a per-transaction basis. NB: The tooling to both reveal this and inspect it is still being written, but every transaction from the genesis block on has been functionally anonymous and has this optional transparency baked in.

How do other coins handle this? I mean, how do you reveal a transaction in Darkcoin/XC/Cloakcoin and prove it came from you?

Darkcoin's latest iteration of darksend to my knowledge premixes so that you can transact normally. ie. you still have a transaction number to refer to.

[HinnomTX]

What happens if Alty wants to send Cloakcoin to Joe but Joe is offline?

[FreedomCoin]

I would hope the OP would reconsider his criteria for PRO/CON in relation to personal privacy.

My feelings on this are in line with what Stealth stated, there are many devs out there that have quite insidious intentions. So by remaining anonymous you are not really able to look into the history of that dev. Also keep in mind there was a very short POW period, which we have no idea if the devs got the majority of those mined coins.. At least it seems like a more honest launch than many.

[RW-Stott]

XC offers both completely anonymous transactions and instant p2p encrypted messaging.  In other words, XC offers a complete platform that protects one's rights to privacy.  Bye NSA.

working or vaporware? when is all this stuff supposed to happen, rev 3? release date?

Once again, this stuff has released already.


To sum it all up:

Rev 2.45 (private payments).

XChat RC 6 (true P2P instant messaging with end-to-end encryption)

XC TOR Stick (releasing on Thursday; doesn't use TOR exit nodes so packet sniffers can't find you)

It's been confirmed by the developers that XChat will include voice calling in post-Rev 3 editions, and video calling further into the future.

So basically we have a decentralised, private, Skype.

BOOM, Headshot!

[voxelot]

What happens if Alty wants to send Cloakcoin to Joe but Joe is offline?

Joe receives Altys CLOAK like any normal wallet.  Offline wallets have been tested to work. Since wallet build #19 of 27

[HinnomTX]

What happens if Alty wants to send Cloakcoin to Joe but Joe is offline?

Joe receives Altys CLOAK like any normal wallet.  Offline wallets have been tested to work. Since wallet build #19 of 27

The wallet can be offline and still respond to Alty's request for new _PoSA address? That's some pretty cool magic.  Can you explain how that works?

[voxelot]

What happens if Alty wants to send Cloakcoin to Joe but Joe is offline?

Joe receives Altys CLOAK like any normal wallet.  Offline wallets have been tested to work. Since wallet build #19 of 27

The wallet can be offline and still respond to Alty's request for new _PoSA address? That's some pretty cool magic.  Can you explain how that works?

Magic?

Joe does not do anything when _PoSA is generated.  Alty knows Joe's address and is initiating a transaction.  This prompts the PoSA nodes to generate the necessary addresses and the funds are shipped.  There are no actions required from Joe's wallet.

[HinnomTX]

What happens if Alty wants to send Cloakcoin to Joe but Joe is offline?

Joe receives Altys CLOAK like any normal wallet.  Offline wallets have been tested to work. Since wallet build #19 of 27

The wallet can be offline and still respond to Alty's request for new _PoSA address? That's some pretty cool magic.  Can you explain how that works?

Magic?

Joe does not do anything when _PoSA is generated.  Alty knows Joe's address and is initiating a transaction.  This prompts the PoSA nodes to generate the necessary addresses and the funds are shipped.  There are no actions required from Joe's wallet.

In the diagram, there's a box there on the upper right that reads: "Tells Joe to Create _PoSA Address and receive it from him".  Then there's another box that reads "Send _PoSA address to Anty from Joe". Looks pretty clear to me that Joe's client needs to be online to generate the _PoSA address. Is the diagram wrong?

[voxelot]

What happens if Alty wants to send Cloakcoin to Joe but Joe is offline?

Joe receives Altys CLOAK like any normal wallet.  Offline wallets have been tested to work. Since wallet build #19 of 27

The wallet can be offline and still respond to Alty's request for new _PoSA address? That's some pretty cool magic.  Can you explain how that works?

Magic?

Joe does not do anything when _PoSA is generated.  Alty knows Joe's address and is initiating a transaction.  This prompts the PoSA nodes to generate the necessary addresses and the funds are shipped.  There are no actions required from Joe's wallet.

In the diagram, there's a box there on the upper right that reads: "Tells Joe to Create _PoSA Address and receive it from him".  Then there's another box that reads "Send _PoSA address to Anty from Joe". Looks pretty clear to me that Joe's client needs to be online to generate the _PoSA address. Is the diagram wrong?

That flow chart is the worst thing ever and I agree is confusing.  Just because Joe can generate _Posa does not mean he has to.  There are even now options to decide how anon you want to be and how many times you want your transaction to be split. There will be a node to create _posa.  I have tested turning my wallet off and have received txs sent via posa.

[MasterMined710]

Just a heads up on MasterMind710. He's responsible for the Cloak FUD subreddits and most of the baseless comments in the sections of Cloak related articles and videos. The only thing backing up his claims is his investment in DRK masternodes..

No idea if this is true but MasterMind710 please let's try to keep at least this thread readable and more "technical".

it's not true. storyteller has been running around telling stories that i posted a bunch of reddit threads but i have repeatedly told him this is not true. i did post some questions on one youtube video and on the article cloak commissioned. i copy and pasted some good cloak questions i found on reddit but they were not mine and i never started any reddit threads. if i did i would say.

i'm not sure what it is that i said in this thread that you have a problem with but i stand behind everything i wrote.  send me a pm if you want to talk/explain.

[MasterMined710]

XC offers both completely anonymous transactions and instant p2p encrypted messaging.  In other words, XC offers a complete platform that protects one's rights to privacy.  Bye NSA.

working or vaporware? when is all this stuff supposed to happen, rev 3? release date?

Once again, this stuff has happened already.


To sum it all up:

Rev 2.45 (private payments).

XChat RC 6 (true P2P instant messaging with end-to-end encryption)

XC TOR Stick (releasing on Thursday; doesn't use TOR exit nodes so packet sniffers can't find you)

ok thank you, great info. i'll have to check it all out. i believe i saw there was a bounty for cracking xc anon feature. can you post that link please. looks like i need to give xc a second look, thanks.

[MasterMined710]

How on earth was XC "decloaked" ? It has nothing to do with cloakcoin or its tech. There will be no problem with bloating blockchain, and the reason the anon rev is stalled for gui is because the encrypted messaging was being worked. There have been many releases since "a few weeks ago". Don't take my words for it, if you consider yourself an intelligent individual just go search the topic and official XC forums for yourself, but don't just throw FUD around like that.

xc anon was cracked by chaeplin but they are redoing it now. i don't have time to keep up with xc anymore and have moved on, sorry. it's too hard to tell what they have working and what is just more vapor. they talk like everything is working but all i see is vapor. please educate me to what is working now and what is just planned for release (rev 3) and when. good to see they have some bounties unlike cloak.

Ah, that opinion. It's old FUD. Chaeplin didn't understand what was being tested.

Here's why.

pretty sure he did understand but there is a language barrier. xc did change what they were doing after that test though.

[MasterMined710]

what about the scalability problem from bloating and the mass adoption issue of non provable transactions. seems like those issues would prevent mass adoption.

Ooooh, this is my area of knowledge:)

Firstly, any mixing technology will also have bloat - you understand that, right? If it goes through 8 hops that's 8 entries in the blockchain. The ONLY advantage that a cryptocurrency using mixing has is that they *can* prune the blockchain (not that they have or even necessarily know how). There is no evidence to suggest that Monero can't prune its blockchain - it absolutely can. The only thing that is currently viewed as hard-to-do-maybe-to-the-point-of-being-impossible is pruning of the key image set and the utxoset, but the blockchain itself can be pruned right up to the highest block.

I also have never heard of Monero transactions being "non-provable". If that were the case your wallet wouldn't know that a particular transaction is meant for you. It does so by "proving" it is. Baked right into the protocol is a "view key" that can be used to expose multiple transactions, and each transaction has a one-time key that can be exposed to show the details of a transaction and confirm it is yours. Monero is, thus, cryptographically anonymous and unlinkable, and optionally transparent on a per-transaction basis. NB: The tooling to both reveal this and inspect it is still being written, but every transaction from the genesis block on has been functionally anonymous and has this optional transparency baked in.

How do other coins handle this? I mean, how do you reveal a transaction in Darkcoin/XC/Cloakcoin and prove it came from you?

thanks. after reading anonymints back and forth with you guys i was under the impression that pruning the bc was questionable and he seems to think it can't be done. it way over my head but he does seem to know his stuff. to clarify he did say it's not possible right? i saw the bbr guy pruned or is pruning some stuff but anonymint claims it's not near enough, correct?

i've seen people talk about the transaction provability part several times but forget the specific phrase they used. i'll check into it and get back to you.

so if i send you some xmr for something and you say you did not get it is there a transaction hash on the bc i can point to and prove it?

thanks for your time.

[some138]

Just a heads up on MasterMind710. He's responsible for the Cloak FUD subreddits and most of the baseless comments in the sections of Cloak related articles and videos. The only thing backing up his claims is his investment in DRK masternodes..

Moving forward.

1)
Since when is the right to privacy of developers a CON? Cloak developers have done more in the last month than most other coins have done in the last nine. Please explain to me how advocates of anon technology also advocate that developers reveal themselves in order for their work to be taking seriously. If you believe anon to be a negative factor in development, then the same argument will be made later down the road for merchants using anonymous currencies. Remember Satoshi was a fellow anon. Just because a new altcoin popped up with developers willing to expose themselves doesn't mean it is a recipe for success; Morever, this should not validate their work or their abilities.

I would hope the OP would reconsider his criteria for PRO/CON in relation to personal privacy.

2)
Please show me at least one alt-coin that has invested money into a high-level independent audit - closed or open. I'm not talking about Kristov Atlas, I'm saying a real authoritative audit from a place like www.opencryptoaudit.org. These places are backed up 3-5 months in advance and the costs are upwards of $50k+. It's comes out to around $5,000+ a week per auditor. It's one thing to sit in this forum and play armchair auditor it's another thing to do it for a living. I'm an investor for Cloak and I'm willing to fund 100% of the independent audit for PoSA. I doubt anyone here is willing to do the same for their investment. I'm already speaking with various candidates and their results will eventually be made public when finished. Dagger, the project lead for Cloak clocks in 20+hour days as do the others on the team. This type of commitment is all I need to validate my investment in a professional audit. The crypto space is one of the most vile and disgusting communities on the internet. Shameless promotions and baseless accusations are all the norm here. Innovation is ripped from another coin and re-branded almost the same day the source is published. It's not a surprise that developers who innovate are moving to more of a closed source development cycle to protect their investors.

Pony up and do the same for your coin because once these results come in your internal reviews won't hold a candle to Cloaks.

3)
A detailed diagram has been released that outlines the inner workings of the Proof-Of-Stake Anon (PoSA) protocol. There is a public beta available for Cloak's PoSA. Feel free to join the IRC #CloakCoin. There are 7 core developers working on Cloak in addition to 5 other developers working on supporting projects. Anyone of them is available to answer questions. There is a diagram on the way that will be easier to read for those who have trouble understanding this one.

Update:

There's been quite a lot of pressure for us to release in greater details, information about our finished anon product.

The whitepaper was deliberately made sparse to avoid attempts at copying from an early stage.

Cloak PoSA is well advanced now so we can now reveal a more indepth paper that shows how our finished Proof of Stake Anonymity system works.

PoSA is entirely trustless and solves the Byzantine Generals problem.





A first look at CloakPal coming tomorrow.

This is not a trustless system, it can be easily cheated. see the discussions in this thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=713836.0

[btcsup]

Why Supercoin  SuperSend is not in this list? The fastest and most advanced anonymous technology used in the all altcoins. They were working on trustless system as well. (Not hype one like cloakd XC or dark) In matter of weeks they are starting tests.

[fluffypony]

thanks. after reading anonymints back and forth with you guys i was under the impression that pruning the bc was questionable and he seems to think it can't be done. it way over my head but he does seem to know his stuff. to clarify he did say it's not possible right? i saw the bbr guy pruned or is pruning some stuff but anonymint claims it's not near enough, correct?

i've seen people talk about the transaction provability part several times but forget the specific phrase they used. i'll check into it and get back to you.

so if i send you some xmr for something and you say you did not get it is there a transaction hash on the bc i can point to and prove it?

thanks for your time.

Both AnonyMint and I agree that pruning, in the Bitcoin sense of the term, is not possible with any of the CryptoNote currencies. That does not mean that other reductions in storage aren't possible, but there will always be a need to keep more data than with Bitcoin and its clones. Specifically, the utxoset *and* the key image set is required, and the key image set is unpruneable. The pruning that BBR does is to remove ring signature proofs, a purely linear pruning and one that I am hesitant about from a cryptographic soundness perspective.

You get a transaction ID for your transaction, most definitely. Here's a transaction of 335 XMR sent to my Monero address (49VNLa9K5ecJo13bwKYt5HCmA8GkgLwpyFjgGKG6qmp8dqoXww8TKPU2PJaLfAAtoZGgtHfJ1nYY8G2 YaewycB4f72yFT6u) on all 3 block explorers:

http://monerochain.info/tx/047c2c11632120f7cd1565c312f94f76135a45f0b2194bbe958826280878fc3d
http://chainradar.com/xmr/transaction/047c2c11632120f7cd1565c312f94f76135a45f0b2194bbe958826280878fc3d
https://minergate.com/blockchain/mro/transaction/047c2c11632120f7cd1565c312f94f76135a45f0b2194bbe958826280878fc3d

As you can see, there's no way to track where it came from, where it went to, or even ascertain the correct amount. However, the very act of being able to provide the transaction ID to me (coupled with me receiving it) is normally sufficient to prove a transaction, since only the sender and recipient will know the transaction ID and the amount.

Of course, this isn't the robust or cryptographically sound way of doing it, which is why we're adding tooling to allow someone to reveal the one-time key (which is different to the transaction ID) for their transaction, and the person (or persons) they send that key to can see the exactly details of their transaction on a blockchain explorer or similar. In other words, this functionality is inherent in the protocol and in each transaction, but we just have to give people the ability to both retrieve this information and for someone else to verify it.

[synechist]

XC offers both completely anonymous transactions and instant p2p encrypted messaging.  In other words, XC offers a complete platform that protects one's rights to privacy.  Bye NSA.

working or vaporware? when is all this stuff supposed to happen, rev 3? release date?

Once again, this stuff has happened already.


To sum it all up:

Rev 2.45 (private payments).

XChat RC 6 (true P2P instant messaging with end-to-end encryption)

XC TOR Stick (releasing on Thursday; doesn't use TOR exit nodes so packet sniffers can't find you)

ok thank you, great info. i'll have to check it all out. i believe i saw there was a bounty for cracking xc anon feature. can you post that link please. looks like i need to give xc a second look, thanks.

Sure, no problem.

XChat and private payments are now merged into a single app!

Try it out. Feel free to message me on the XChat address and pubkey in my signature.

[MasterMined710]

thanks. after reading anonymints back and forth with you guys i was under the impression that pruning the bc was questionable and he seems to think it can't be done. it way over my head but he does seem to know his stuff. to clarify he did say it's not possible right? i saw the bbr guy pruned or is pruning some stuff but anonymint claims it's not near enough, correct?

i've seen people talk about the transaction provability part several times but forget the specific phrase they used. i'll check into it and get back to you.

so if i send you some xmr for something and you say you did not get it is there a transaction hash on the bc i can point to and prove it?

thanks for your time.

Both AnonyMint and I agree that pruning, in the Bitcoin sense of the term, is not possible with any of the CryptoNote currencies. That does not mean that other reductions in storage aren't possible, but there will always be a need to keep more data than with Bitcoin and its clones. Specifically, the utxoset *and* the key image set is required, and the key image set is unpruneable. The pruning that BBR does is to remove ring signature proofs, a purely linear pruning and one that I am hesitant about from a cryptographic soundness perspective.

You get a transaction ID for your transaction, most definitely. Here's a transaction of 335 XMR sent to my Monero address (49VNLa9K5ecJo13bwKYt5HCmA8GkgLwpyFjgGKG6qmp8dqoXww8TKPU2PJaLfAAtoZGgtHfJ1nYY8G2 YaewycB4f72yFT6u) on all 3 block explorers:

http://monerochain.info/tx/047c2c11632120f7cd1565c312f94f76135a45f0b2194bbe958826280878fc3d
http://chainradar.com/xmr/transaction/047c2c11632120f7cd1565c312f94f76135a45f0b2194bbe958826280878fc3d
https://minergate.com/blockchain/mro/transaction/047c2c11632120f7cd1565c312f94f76135a45f0b2194bbe958826280878fc3d

As you can see, there's no way to track where it came from, where it went to, or even ascertain the correct amount. However, the very act of being able to provide the transaction ID to me (coupled with me receiving it) is normally sufficient to prove a transaction, since only the sender and recipient will know the transaction ID and the amount.

Of course, this isn't the robust or cryptographically sound way of doing it, which is why we're adding tooling to allow someone to reveal the one-time key (which is different to the transaction ID) for their transaction, and the person (or persons) they send that key to can see the exactly details of their transaction on a blockchain explorer or similar. In other words, this functionality is inherent in the protocol and in each transaction, but we just have to give people the ability to both retrieve this information and for someone else to verify it.

great info man, thanks. the one-time key feature will solve the provability problem i've seen brought up but i still can't think of the damn technical name they were using
sounds like what bitshares x is doing with a secret key to prove transaction to a third party type escrow. the whole anon scene is very exciting!

only other real issues is the bloating and (visa level) scalability that anonymint always talks about. what are y'alls plans to fix that?
the crippled hash things is fixed (right?) and doesn't concern me as it only affected like 2% from what i saw which is super fair in the cryptocoin world.
the only other thing i can think of now is the issue of inflation,  4 years pow if i'm not mistaken?
 some have also questioned the pow algo cryptonite because i guess it's new and cryptographically unproven but getting professionally audited at some point?
seems like y'all have a great team working on things and i'll definitely consider putting some btc into your project.


what's your thoughts on bitshares x anon feature titan?

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/TITAN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDvXZMQNnhE

Delegated Proof of Stake - Let's Talk Bitcoin Episode 129
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdBpoRLmrbA&list=WL#t=726

[MasterMined710]

XC offers both completely anonymous transactions and instant p2p encrypted messaging.  In other words, XC offers a complete platform that protects one's rights to privacy.  Bye NSA.

working or vaporware? when is all this stuff supposed to happen, rev 3? release date?

Once again, this stuff has happened already.


To sum it all up:

Rev 2.45 (private payments).

XChat RC 6 (true P2P instant messaging with end-to-end encryption)

XC TOR Stick (releasing on Thursday; doesn't use TOR exit nodes so packet sniffers can't find you)

ok thank you, great info. i'll have to check it all out. i believe i saw there was a bounty for cracking xc anon feature. can you post that link please. looks like i need to give xc a second look, thanks.

Sure, no problem.

XChat and private payments are now merged into a single app!

Try it out. Feel free to message me on the XChat address and pubkey in my signature.

lol, yeah that was my next question. smart move.  i saw bitshares x was doing that too. i'll try both in the next few days or so. everything anon is moving so fast, love it!

[G-Bert]

So... Have any other Coins other than XC got Anonymous transactions and encrypted chat working currently?

Surprised by the low price still on XC, anyone have any ideas why?

[MasterMined710]

So... Have any other Coins other than XC got Anonymous transactions and encrypted chat working currently?

Surprised by the low price still on XC, anyone have any ideas why?

bitshares x does. they are currently the number 2 anon coin by market cap after darkcoin. their dpos is better than the old pos that many coins use. dpos helps prevent rollbacks and other pos attack vectors.

also, just saw a darkcoin member has created a encrypted chat program that uses the masternode protocol. he is also working on a ebay level scalable dark market using the masternodes. darkcoin will also be implementing their own super fast i2p network using masternodes. the future uses for masternodes are endless.

[fluffypony]

great info man, thanks. the one-time key feature will solve the provability problem i've seen brought up but i still can't think of the damn technical name they were using
sounds like what bitshares x is doing with a secret key to prove transaction to a third party type escrow. the whole anon scene is very exciting!

only other real issues is the bloating and (visa level) scalability that anonymint always talks about. what are y'alls plans to fix that?
the crippled hash things is fixed (right?) and doesn't concern me as it only affected like 2% from what i saw which is super fair in the cryptocoin world.
the only other thing i can think of now is the issue of inflation,  4 years pow if i'm not mistaken?
 some have also questioned the pow algo cryptonite because i guess it's new and cryptographically unproven but getting professionally audited at some point?
seems like y'all have a great team working on things and i'll definitely consider putting some btc into your project.


what's your thoughts on bitshares x anon feature titan?

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/TITAN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDvXZMQNnhE

Delegated Proof of Stake - Let's Talk Bitcoin Episode 129
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdBpoRLmrbA&list=WL#t=726

I haven't had much time to look into what Bitshares is doing, I tend to focus solely on improving the already working privacy in Monero instead of constantly looking over the fence into everyone else's yard;)

No cryptocurrency has Visa-level scalability right now. Bitcoin *can* be pruned, but it hasn't been pruned yet. I honestly think that Visa-level scalability will come from off-chain transactions - so someone like Visa or PayPal or whoever will provide a way to use the current infrastructure for extremely rapid transacting, and then all accounts will have on-chain settlement every day or week or whatever.

In many, many years time when there is an extremely low-latency (nanosecond-scale) global network on ipv6 and disk space is faster+cheaper+more abundant and cryptography has advanced many fold it is entirely possible that an ancestor of today's cryptocurrencies will provide this level of transacting on-chain. The basic nature of "the size of a transaction" won't change much, so that level of scale is around 100 billion transactions per year (MasterCard: 34 billion in 2013, Visa: 58.5 billion in 2013) which averages out to around 200 000 transactions a minute. A Bitcoin-style pseudonymous network with no mixing (let's not forget that any mixing adds multiple transactions, ie. bloat) will run up about 1.32gb per 10-minute block. A Monero-style network (as it currently stands) will run up about 680mb per 1-minute block, about 6.8gb every 10 minutes. That's a yearly hit of 70tb (Bitcoin with no mixing) and 360tb (Monero). Both of these are unsustainable with our current technology, not only with regards to disk space but also with regards to the low-latency global network required to broadcast blocks and transactions.

The reality is that by the time this becomes possible from a network perspective in many, many years, I can guarantee that both 70tb and 360tb will be irrelevant figures. I already have a 1tb USB flash drive (Kingston HyperX Predator, released beginning of 2013), and WD released their 6th WD Red NAS drives the other day, so storage space is increasing rapidly. In fact, where Moore's law aims to pinpoint processor growth, Kryder's law shows a much sharper curve for storage space growth. His model says that a 14th drive will be available by 2020 and will cost $40, and you can extrapolate from there. By the time the current Internet reaches a point where ipv6 is commonplace and network speed and latency is such that moving even 1.32gb around in 10 minutes is a complete non-issue even in rural Africa, Kingston will have released its Wireless USB 7.0 compatible 2pb HyperZZZ SoaringEagle flash drive, and all this "blockchain bloat" stuff will be a non-issue.

[FreedomCoin]

Scalability is on everyone's mind regarding all coins, but we cannot just hope that Moore's law solves that problem for us.

BTW added Supercoin to Post #1

[kyma]

So... Have any other Coins other than XC got Anonymous transactions and encrypted chat working currently?

Surprised by the low price still on XC, anyone have any ideas why?

I think its worth mentioning ShadowCoin [SDC] as they seem to be on the playing-field with XCurrency (mobile apps and whatnot)... not to mention they've been hiding under he woodwork until this week

Everyone in the XC forum has been asking themselves that all week. Seems like a healthy market right now with little to no large whale manipulation. This I'm ok with as I'm not a big day trader.   

[vertoe]

Dark Coin:
Cons:

Uses a CoinJoin clone for anon trading of coins. Which has been shown to have flaws, see “CoinJoinSudoku”. http://www.coinjoinsudoku.com/advisory/
Was instamined over 2 million DRK on launch, due to only a few having access to the windows mining client and not publicly released for some time. And due to problems with the difficulty readjustment. http://wiki.darkcoin.eu/wiki/FAQ#Was_Darkcoin_Instamined.3F

Just an update, Darksend, initially released with Darkcoin was indeed a poor implementation of coinjoin and vulnarable to sudoku/timing attacks. With the recent release of RC4, Darksend was removed from the clients and replaced by Darksend+ which is not mixing the coins during the send but in a complete separate denomination phase which fixes this issue usually seen with all other coinjoin implementations. It's worth to look into that.

Kristov Atlas who found the Coinjoin Sudoku vulnarability is currently reviewing the code of Darksend+ and will publish a paper soon with the results
http://blog.anonymousbitcoinbook.com/2014/08/visualizing-one-round-of-darkcoins-darksend/
https://twitter.com/anonymouscoin/status/508541929890787328

[FreedomCoin]

Hello vertoe, okay i will update.

[vertoe]

Hello vertoe, okay i will update.

Cool

Dark Coin:
Cons:
Was instamined over 2 million DRK on launch, due to only a few having access to the windows mining client and not publicly released for some time. And due to problems with the difficulty readjustment. http://wiki.darkcoin.eu/wiki/FAQ#Was_Darkcoin_Instamined.3F

And, I have to add more information regarding Darkcoin. I never heard that there was only a windows wallet available at the start. I know the lead dev is a dedicated linux guy and therefore I think this is not really the case. Where did you read that?

Regarding the instamine there was someone analyzing the blockchain if devs or other possible insiders were holding big quantaties or dumped them during the price rise. It's worth to read the review of Darkcoins distribution thread:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=778616.0

Further interesting additions to this thread would be Anoncoin, Monero and Bitcoindark, if you are interested to keep this discussion going

[FreedomCoin]

Hello vertoe, okay i will update.

Cool

Dark Coin:
Cons:
Was instamined over 2 million DRK on launch, due to only a few having access to the windows mining client and not publicly released for some time. And due to problems with the difficulty readjustment. http://wiki.darkcoin.eu/wiki/FAQ#Was_Darkcoin_Instamined.3F

And, I have to add more information regarding Darkcoin. I never heard that there was only a windows wallet available at the start. I know the lead dev is a dedicated linux guy and therefore I think this is not really the case. Where did you read that?

Regarding the instamine there was someone analyzing the blockchain if devs or other possible insiders were holding big quantaties or dumped them during the price rise. It's worth to read the review of Darkcoins distribution thread:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=778616.0

Further interesting additions to this thread would be Anoncoin, Monero and Bitcoindark, if you are interested to keep this discussion going

I have heard the same about the lead dev being a linux guy. I meant that most had to use linux to mine and only a select few had a windows mining client. So many Windows based miners we not able to start mining as early as the linux crowd could.

Thanks for the thread of stats, my point was that due to a glitch in the code many got alot of DRK early but as you said they may have sold as soon as the price raised. But still there is a large hemorrhage of DRK in the first couple weeks due to this diff adjustment glitch.

I will look into adding Anoncoin, Monero and Bitcoindark..

[hashforce101]

Navajocoin - The unbreakable Code

http://www.navajocoin.org/

“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
- Benjamin Franklin

Not 98% Anon . Worlds 1st fully 100% Anon Coin - End to End Coming Soon!

Built from the ground up with a non identified system administrator - 100% Anonymous