bitcoin changing my ideology from socialism to libertarianism! What about you?

[pedrog]

And the anarchist wet dream really exists, it's called Somalia, there's is no functional government there, people are really free, no taxes, no imposed state health care or education, and the best part, you can go there and you won't be an illegal immigrant because there's nobody to say you are.

The libertarian wet dream may be Somaliland, there's a government there but it's really small...

It isn't fair to compare a country ruled by warlords, ravaged by tyrants and plundered by foreign governments to a modern anarcho-capitalist society. Somalia is in its current state precisely because of current and past governments.

To make this comparison shows a fundamental misunderstanding of anarchist philosophy. Anarchism involves voluntary mutual solidarity and adherence to the non -aggression principle which isn't exactly principles being followed by pirates and gangs in Somalia.

The internet, torrents, Open source movement, linux, and Bitcoin represents a start of our anarchistic ideals in action. Bitcoin has many anarchistic principles at its core level and none of it involves chaos and disorder as many people love to falsely portray anarchism.

As I said, I'm not an absolutist, but that IRL anarchy is not feasible, well, at least for now.

[1714759489]

1714759489

[1714759489]

1714759489

[1714759489]

1714759489

[inBitweTrust]

As I said, I'm not an absolutist, but that IRL anarchy is not feasible, well, at least for now.

Anarchy isn't a destination. There is no such thing as an Anarchist paradise or Utopia.

Anarchism is a set of principles. These set of principles most people follow throughout most aspects of their lives.
Societies which follow these principles tend to be healthier and have higher standards of living.

Anarchism isn't hypothetical but happening all around you all the time. It has a proven track record of working better than using coercion and violence.
Statists point to failed anarchist collectives as examples of how anarchy doesn't work. Their assumption posits that these examples exist in a vacuum while ignoring the violence and imposition made upon anarchists by state actors.  

[Ron~Popeil]

I want both full individual freedom and a robust social safety net.

These are mutually exclusive concepts. In order for the state to provide a social safety net it must either tax us, print ever increasing amounts of money, or both. Either option destroys individual freedom. 

[jonald_fyookball]

I want both full individual freedom and a robust social safety net.

These are mutually exclusive concepts. In order for the state to provide a social safety net it must either tax us, print ever increasing amounts of money, or both. Either option destroys individual freedom. 

not necessarily...you can have a safety net built on voluntary contribution.
just think how much extra money would be available when the government
isn't raping your paycheck for taxes.

[cuddaloreappu]

how does one protect their lives from violence from terrorist and gangs in an anarchist society without the help of  a powerful government and watch dog security service?

[jonald_fyookball]

how does one protect their lives from violence from terrorist and gangs in an anarchist society without the help of  a powerful government and watch dog security service?

I think anarchism leads to mob rule.

There's nothing wrong with the rule of law if it is based on Objective Law (upholding individual rights).

[cuddaloreappu]

I think if anarchism is all good except for the protection of individual from violence..

then science and technology can solve the problem... imagine if anybody with any type of injury could be healed in no time...

In that world, nobody needs to live in fear... and anarchism would be a perfect system

[jbreher]

how does one protect their lives from violence from terrorist and gangs in an anarchist society without the help of  a powerful government and watch dog security service?

Government is nothing but terroristic gangs that achieve their ends through violence.

[Anders]

I want both full individual freedom and a robust social safety net.

These are mutually exclusive concepts. In order for the state to provide a social safety net it must either tax us, print ever increasing amounts of money, or both. Either option destroys individual freedom. 

Exponential progress of technology will make even material things cheaper and cheaper. And artificial intelligence will gradually replace governments and jobs. The 21th century will be VERY different than the 20th century.

"Proponents of the singularity typically postulate an "intelligence explosion",[5][6] where superintelligences design successive generations of increasingly powerful minds, that might occur very quickly and might not stop until the agent's cognitive abilities greatly surpass that of any human.

Kurzweil predicts the singularity to occur around 2045[7] whereas Vinge predicts some time before 2030.[8] At the 2012 Singularity Summit, Stuart Armstrong did a study of artificial general intelligence (AGI) predictions by experts and found a wide range of predicted dates, with a median value of 2040." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

And even before the technological singularity technology will start to replace more and more jobs.

[Erdogan]

how does one protect their lives from violence from terrorist and gangs in an anarchist society without the help of  a powerful government and watch dog security service?

Government is nothing but terroristic gangs that achieve their ends through violence.

Just to make it clear, an anarchist society (no rulers) is a society of human rights, and trade. You can call it a free society, where each individual is a sovereign.

1) The terrorists and gangs, (which can develop into governments) will have a hard time taxing the
right minded people. Basically, the hope is that the process of taxing cost more than the taxes payed.

2) Being rightful, produce and trade will be more effective to sport individual wealth and happiness than resorting to being a gang member (including a member of government).

3) Everyone have to defend themselves, individually or by association.

4) A high degree of social security and health care insurance is possible, either in free association with others or by buying insurance from businesses in the market.

5) Examples of voluntary relationships are numerous now, one example is the states, which are sovereign by definition. They care for their own by trading with other sovereign states. Not all states are at war at all times.

6) Everything is not solved with freedom. There are lots of things to discuss and argue about. For instance, the question of the rightness of abortion will still be discussed. Conflicts will arise, but in an environment of rights and virtue, they can hopefully be resolved peacefully with the help of arbitrators.

7) What we have now, is an environment of tension, rights abuses, no rule of law, double standards (I can but you can't), basically, we live in chaos.

[bitsmichel]

how does one protect their lives from violence from terrorist and gangs in an anarchist society without the help of  a powerful government and watch dog security service?

I think anarchism leads to mob rule.

There's nothing wrong with the rule of law if it is based on Objective Law (upholding individual rights).

I think in an anarchist society the people would be more connected. For example, you would need your neighbours to protect you and your assets. It's not like an anarchist society wouldn't have (unwritten) rules.

As for the other part, the government is a powerful mob.

[Honeybooboo]

Hmm, I dont see how it can change your political views. I've always considered myself a socialist and that's what attracted me to bitcoin in the first place as being the first fair money.

[Este Nuno]

yeah ever since I got involved with bitcoins... my ideology is slowly changing from

being  pro socialism to pro libertarianism...

I now feel happy and liberated when I think about the pleasures of personal wealth..

are you having such changes?

Please elaborate, why your opinions have changed! I think this is highly interesting. I guess it's more often the other way around that people change from libertarianism to some at least somewhat left stance, because they realize that the world just doesn't work when everyone is just trying to work for his own well being at the cost of others'. Also that this is not what we - as a society - want.

Right. In my experience Bitcoin is more likely to change people's perspective away from anarchy/libertarianism after they experience a taste of that reality.

[shawshankinmate37927]

I think anarchism leads to mob rule.

Actually, "mob rule" is commonly referred to as "democracy".

Perhaps it's mob rule that will lead to anarchism.

[inBitweTrust]

how does one protect their lives from violence from terrorist and gangs in an anarchist society without the help of  a powerful government and watch dog security service?
I think if anarchism is all good except for the protection of individual from violence..

This is a false dichotomy. In the US you are 8 times more likely to be killed by a cop than a terrorist. States actively spread violence through war, propaganda, and social structures meant to control the populace.

Security in an anarchist society comes from many services and technologies : Home defense, solidarity with your neighbors and community, non profits DRO's(Dispute resolution companies) , for profit (DRO's that follow the NAP), and technologies like Bitcoin.

Additionally, aggressors from foreign states(or mafia gangs) primarily want to destroy and take over tax structures and not go through the expensive process of occupying a bunch of non-conforming anarchists. This is why foreign states first seek to impose their political leaders through a coup or through manipulating propaganda, or they seek to impose treaties like CAFTA, or they impose debt slavery through the IMF, or they nation build and install new representative governments that are less antagonistic to them.  None of this can be done effectively in an Anarchistic society as there is no centralization.

[Beliathon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

You can be both or a mixture as they can be interchangeable, but why even pigeonhole your beliefs?

Libertarian socialist = Social Anarchist = Anarcho-socialist.

Reason and ethics will take you on a journey that ends with autonomy, solidarity, and above all, compassion.

Compassion must include a healthy dose of anti-capitalism, as capitalism divides us against ourselves, and creates the illusion of a "dog-eat-dog" world.

[inBitweTrust]

It really just isn't about the people vs governments however. Many anarchists will readily admit the state does some good for society and police aren't 100% corrupt and do help to a degree. What they do posit is the ends do not justify the means and there are more efficient means of organizing a society.

Anarchism posits a few basic principles that most people agree with with and follow in their personal life but make certain exceptions when it comes to corporations and governments:

1) Acknowledgement of property rights and self ownership
2) adherence to the non-aggression principle

Those 2 principles naturally have a consequence the social structure found within anarchism and Bitcoin - non-hierarchical, decentralized, free associations.

Once you understand this than anarchism isn't just antagonistic against governments, but also corporations who use the power of the state to enforce monopolies with patents , copyrights, and a limited liability veil, gangs who use violence to shake down people, and individuals who violently harass their neighbors or family.

We aren't proposing perfection just more consistent ethics which will lead to greater prosperity for all.

[PotatoMcGruff]

You're all retards.

Good luck in your socialist hand-out society... I know I personally worked my fucking ass off for the degree's and career I have now and don't feel like any of you fat lazy fucks should be entitled to my hard work whatsoever... Socialists should all go take over an island and see how long your "lets all share and do nothing" ideology works out..

[herzmeister]

Socialists should all go take over an island and see how long your "lets all share and do nothing" ideology works out..

something like that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPl_Y3Qdb7Y

[jonald_fyookball]

"Libertarian socialism" = a perversion and inversion of the real principles of liberty.

Ask someone who "doesn't believe in property" to give you theirs and
see what happens.