bitcoin changing my ideology from socialism to libertarianism! What about you?

[calchuchesta]

Comment above is spot on. We are told to be individualistic by nature, then reinforced by artificial scarcity and artificial need to compete.

The truth is we are headed towards 95% unemployment as only 5% of human labour will be needed to produce everything we need before the current century ends. Have fun trying to keep an economy alive with such a situation.

[1714983450]

1714983450

[herzmeister]

Great insight. You are backed up philosophically by Wittgenstein when he said that there is no private language - and by Chomsky, by implication, in his ideas of how we acquire language.

Right, everything is a remix, we're only standing on the shoulders of giants, etc...

Still, in German we (of course) have a word to describe the level of novelty and originality: Schöpfungshöhe

[jonald_fyookball]

To believe humans are inherently selfish creatures is to believe that a 300 years dead philosopher had a better grasp of our nature than the whole of modern science. An absurdity that borders on religious levels of non-logic. Why do you cling to this outdated Hobbesian notion in the face of the heaps of evidence I have laid out this very thread?  

I don't recall ever making the assertion that humans are "inherently selfish creatures".
Humans operate on a broad spectrum of different levels of consciousness,
from the psychopathic to the saintly.  

The difference between rational  self-interest and "selfishness"
is the inclusion of others in one's thoughts and values.  I was
about to say something about free trade falling under the umbrella
of rational self-interest, but the point would be moot if you don't
believe in the concept of ownership.

[genjix]

Comment above is spot on. We are told to be individualistic by nature, then reinforced by artificial scarcity and artificial need to compete.

The truth is we are headed towards 95% unemployment as only 5% of human labour will be needed to produce everything we need before the current century ends. Have fun trying to keep an economy alive with such a situation.

A lot of people is going to die or be disenfranchised. That's the way it has to be, I'm sorry.

Those of us that are organised will thrive however with the rise of ideological movements as the alternative base of political power.

Humans act altruistic or selfish depending on biological makeup, upbringing or environment. We possess both qualities- some more than other and altruism is well documented by science. Social darwinism as a social theory is old, outdated and discredited.
However to be effective, our proposals must speak both to altruism and enlightened self-interest.

As a political activist who rejects utopianism, it's important we think about our action here and now with a mind of where we want to go towards. Preserving individual spirit is the most important goal for breeding liberty. Liberty and equality are not always the same, sometimes opposed.

There is just no other way, people are going to die. Our trajectory cannot continue its insanity.

[Beliathon]

Comment above is spot on. We are told to be individualistic by nature, then reinforced by artificial scarcity and artificial need to compete.

The truth is we are headed towards 95% unemployment as only 5% of human labour will be needed to produce everything we need before the current century ends. Have fun trying to keep an economy alive with such a situation.

A lot of people is going to die or be disenfranchised. That's the way it has to be, I'm sorry.
(...)
There is just no other way, people are going to die. Our trajectory cannot continue its insanity.

I read recently that if everyone on the planet lived with a Rwandan standard of living, Earth could feasibly support a population of 15 billion. But if everyone lived with a North American standard of living, Earth could only support 1.2 billion humans.

The trouble is, everyone wants the better standard of living and no one seems to want to stop breeding...

[practicaldreamer]

I vaguely recall believing I "owned" my ideas. I don't know if that was nature or nurture.

I reckon you were still in the stage of childhood egocentrism - unfortunately, it is a stage that seems to be not only not completely passed through by many adults, but positively encouraged on a consumerist/cultural level.

BTW. I tend to agree regarding Freicoin - but it would require a seismic shift in consciousness for it to ever catch on (in the west at least - I believe demurrage has its roots in Islam ?)

Great insight. You are backed up philosophically by Wittgenstein when he said that there is no private language - and by Chomsky, by implication, in his ideas of how we acquire language.

Right, everything is a remix, we're only standing on the shoulders of giants, etc...

Still, in German we (of course) have a word to describe the level of novelty and originality: Schöpfungshöhe

I wish I could read that link - its in german and I wasn't very succesful in getting a translation. I'd love to know how the germans decide on an individuals level of novelty and originality.

Do we create ? Or do we discover ?

[phillipsjk]

That book explains that in hunter-gatherer societies, there is no scarcity. The commons provide all that is need. If supplies need to time to replenish, they can simply move to the next area. With no property to defend, wars are avoided simply by walking away.

No scarcity, huh? You need to have a pretty peculiar definition of scarcity to support that proposition.

I hate to echo genjix's grim prediction, but our brains do not handle large numbers well. A large enough number is considered infinite. For that to work in practice, we need a relatively small population. There is some hope: developed nations, which use the most resources, tend to have low birth-rates.

[jonald_fyookball]

  developed nations, which use the most resources, tend to have low birth-rates.

Poorer, less educated (dumber?) people seem to have more kids as well.  

Ever see that movie Idiocracy?  

[phillipsjk]

  developed nations, which use the most resources, tend to have low birth-rates.

Poorer, less educated (dumber?) people seem to have more kids as well.  

Ever see that movie Idiocracy?  

That was not a documentary.

They were using exaggeration for comic effect.

Edit: the implication is: educate the poor, birth-rate solved!

[Beliathon]

educate the poor, birth-rate solved!

Something like that.

[jonald_fyookball]

  developed nations, which use the most resources, tend to have low birth-rates.

Poorer, less educated (dumber?) people seem to have more kids as well.  

Ever see that movie Idiocracy?  

That was not a documentary.

They were using exaggeration for comic effect.
 

you don't say?

[cuddaloreappu]

Just found out these amazing stuff, speculations about the origins of bitcoin


The Extropian Roots of Bitcoin
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/extropian-roots-bitcoin/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extropianism


John Nash Is Satoshi Nakamoto?  The Creator of Bitcoin
http://bitcoinpricelive.com/john-nash-satoshi-nakamoto-bitcoin/

Where does libertarianism and socialism lie in all those complicated ideologies!

[Beliathon]

Where does libertarianism and socialism lie in all those complicated ideologies!

"extropian thinking places strong emphasis on rational thinking and practical optimism. These principles "do not specify particular beliefs, technologies, or policies". Extropians share an optimistic view of the future" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extropianism)

So they're:
-pro rationality and therefore
-anti superstition (which includes religion)
-optimistic about humanity's future

Sounds like they'd be on board with the view that humanity will soon transcend capitalism and socially evolve to a more empathic, more ecologically harmonious, less-violent, more reasoned state of being on this planet.

For those who want to understand the present state of affairs in the USA, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism

[genjix]

transhumanism is wishful thinking bordering on utopic fantasies and self-congratulatory masturbation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHVtUw5wToA
a kind of techno fascism with no rooting in the present, nor in human nature but rather some psuedo-scientific future projections.
it's the palm reading of techno-philes.
bitcoin users suffer it when they talk about self-driving cars and crap like that:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2j2uia/having_your_own_local_economy_with_bitcoin/
this "vision" is not one of freedom through empowerment but of utopic convenience.

[Beliathon]

this "vision" is not one of freedom through empowerment but of utopic convenience.

I suppose time will tell.

[inBitweTrust]

As an ideal anarcho-capitalism is just as utopic as anarcho-communism. I've never heard a good answer as to who enforces property ownership. It's worth understanding that ownership of land (on which we were all born and belonged to nobody) is a purely western concept. Property is connected to labour- you might own the building, but you cannot own property titles to unused land without an enforcer/mafia.

You are addressing salient points and I do agree property rights does get somewhat muddled with varying degrees of interpretation. One common misunderstanding held by many is that Anarcho-capitalists believe in absolute property rights when it comes to land ownership. While there are certainly a few that believe this, many have a very nuanced views of property titles and define land ownership like personal property as an extension of ones effort and labor. Thus they allow for homesteading of property and redistribution of excess property not taken care of. Additionally, many believe in Common law rights such as the right of away through private property.

I live in a mostly anarcho- capitalist community where we built the infrastructure, manage and maintain the roads , water, and security all voluntarily without coercion. Homesteading can and does happen here in as quick as 13 months.

I do agree with you that many people get caught up in labels where the end effect is the same in practice. Example:
In my community we build and maintain the roads voluntarily. We periodically elect a few members of the community to oversee the funds and manage the work and they do so unpaid as volunteers.
Those that cannot afford to chip in sometimes contribute labor to the project. Others may just selfishly avoid altogether because they are assholes. Our participation rate is around 68% plus a few volunteers with labor. Other anarchistic communities around here have between 60-100% participation rates. Everyone has a right to use the road regardless if they pay or not. They even have a right to travel to any rivers or other properties through private property.

So the net effect in our anarcho-cap community is the same effect as an anarcho-collectivist/communist community with the poor being subsidized by the wealthier. Since we are a small community of 150 homes we understand who legitimately cannot pay and thus empathize with them and don't hold it against them. Wealthy people who don't pay will indirectly be damaged ultimately by a negative perceptions of their character. People are naturally incentivized to help out simply because most enjoy contributing to a group (which is further reinforced by dunbar's number) and the fact that we all know who contributes and who doesn't.

[forevernoob]

I read recently that if everyone on the planet lived with a Rwandan standard of living, Earth could feasibly support a population of 15 billion. But if everyone lived with a North American standard of living, Earth could only support 1.2 billion humans.

The trouble is, everyone wants the better standard of living and no one seems to want to stop breeding...

Well the North American standard of living is based on debt.
It might collapse any given day.

I think as we evolve to a better standard of living we will make better use of natural resources.
After all the market sets the prices, we wouldn't be driving around in ICE cars if gas was 100$ a gal.

[Beliathon]

Well the North American standard of living is based on debt.
It might collapse any given day.

Something we agree on!    Debt, waste, and racist policing for profit.

[deal]

I'm always a libertarian, while have no way to truly free my behavior until btc's coming offers me possibility.

[Erdogan]

Comment above is spot on. We are told to be individualistic by nature, then reinforced by artificial scarcity and artificial need to compete.

The truth is we are headed towards 95% unemployment as only 5% of human labour will be needed to produce everything we need before the current century ends. Have fun trying to keep an economy alive with such a situation.

A lot of people is going to die or be disenfranchised. That's the way it has to be, I'm sorry.
(...)
There is just no other way, people are going to die. Our trajectory cannot continue its insanity.

I read recently that if everyone on the planet lived with a Rwandan standard of living, Earth could feasibly support a population of 15 billion. But if everyone lived with a North American standard of living, Earth could only support 1.2 billion humans.

The trouble is, everyone wants the better standard of living and no one seems to want to stop breeding...

Here we go...your solution is to let a few billion die..I suppose you could help make that happen. Perpaps you are into life extension also?

The first dead (not the first born) son of the Ming dynasty founder died at 21 while experimenting with life extending medicine... had to laugh.