State Atheism

[zimmah]

If I had to choose between a Theocracy or State atheism I would pick the latter every time.

Historically, what examples of a Theocracy are you referencing, out of curiosity?Kind of hard to compare and discuss your point, unless you have some specific examples in mind.

A theocracy is a theocracy is a theocracy. All the same and all bad. A government free of state religion but allowing people to worship their Gods is perfect. If only theists would be happy with such abundance.

having a church (led by man) governing a country, or having a large influence at least, is not the same as a true theocracy.

A true theocracy has god as leader, without man in between, which has never happened in the history of well, forever. (If we exclude adam and eve).

However, god has promised us that theocracy will come, after armageddon, and i would surely prefer theocracy over anything else.

Man are not made to rule over other man.

Somalia, Sudan, Iran, the list goes on....try building a church in one of those places Tomas.  I help fund you to go there and see how much better they are than China when you go to promote christianity.

Theocracy, a nation governed by god.

Muslim countries are not run by god, but by muslims, which are people.

Some of them truly believe in a god, Allah, but Allah does not directly, or even indirectly, govern any of these countries. Therefore, it is not truly a theocracy.

A theocracy may not be "worse" than a state atheism, but, the problem is, that in a theocracy the common people will suffer more at each other's hands than they do under state atheism. State atheism, once it has weeded out the clerical type, doesn't need to foment hatred. But a theocracy, in order to maintain power, must ALWAYS foment hatred against those who are different than the ruling religion, and moreover must push constant memes of intolerance and hatred to maintain the support of the populace.

Atheists generally don't go hating on religious. They may feel contempt for them, or pity, but not hatred. But religions hate each other, and killing in the name of a god justifies any behavior.

that's the problem, since your 'versions' of theocracy assume a human leader who invents a religion, and anything that conflicts with their religion, be it a different religion, or science, or whatever, anything that conflicts with the ideas of a madman in charge is forbidden.

However, god is not a madman and his worths are no myths, god is not afraid of science, in fact god encourages science, contrary to popular belief (people, the catholic church =/= god, the CATHOLIC church was opposed to science, god is NOT opposed to science), also, the bible has NOT been disputed by ANY scientific revelations so far and is unlikely to EVER be contradicted by science. In fact, so far science has only supported the bible, which is odd because the bible is an ancient book. This, in my opinion only proves the validity of it.

The most dangerous forms of government is a government where the leaders claim to follow god, but do not in fact follow god, which is what we saw during the medieval time period in europe, and nowadays in many muslim countries.

However, a true theocracy where god directly governs the world, would be heaven on earth, literally. Luckily, this will happen, and it may even happen during our lifetime.


by the way, i'm religious, and i do not hate anyone, i do pity many, and feel sorry that they are so close-minded and oftentime sad and/or without hope, but i don't hate them, i just hope one day they will stop and think.

[zolace]

In the link below that you posted supporting your premise:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/


What what did the article you posted note were factors in Norway achieving that rating?

Or, perhaps there is something the article mentions that you are rather hesitant to C&P? Rather telling for someone who is rather fond of C&P here.

[Rigon]

In the link below that you posted supporting your premise:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/


What what did the article you posted note were factors in Norway achieving that rating?

Or, perhaps there is something the article mentions that you are rather hesitant to C&P? Rather telling for someone who is rather fond of C&P here.

I posted the links and the factors many times .  There is one study that says Paraguay is happy and 15 that say Norway and other Scandinavian countries are happiest.....Scandinavian countries ALWAYS rank very high on any scale of happiness, including the one that put Paraguay at the top.  I repeat, I posted studies and factors considered many times already.

[zolace]

In the link below that you posted supporting your premise:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/


What what did the article you posted note were factors in Norway achieving that rating?

Or, perhaps there is something the article mentions that you are rather hesitant to C&P? Rather telling for someone who is rather fond of C&P here.

I posted the links and the factors many times .  There is one study that says Paraguay is happy and 15 that say Norway and other Scandinavian countries are happiest.....Scandinavian countries ALWAYS rank very high on any scale of happiness, including the one that put Paraguay at the top.  I repeat, I posted studies and factors considered many times already.

Clearly, you post things without reading thoughtfully, at least some times.

In the link below that you posted supporting your premise:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/


What what did the article you posted note were factors in Norway achieving that rating?  Or, do you hesitate to do so, because the link you provided actually undermines your case??

[Rigon]

If you think have a point, make it.  You do realize that Norway was not included in the survey above and both Sweden and Denmark finished higher than the US???  I repeat, if you think you have a point, chime in at any time.

[zimmah]

I read it fine.  That you dont like my responses is not evidence that Im just not reading you well enough.   The examples given certainly were not worse places than theistic states.  When you are in spurious relationship land and religion is your agenda, there is just no stopping you.

I think it is interesting that discussions about religion always de-rail and result in heated discussions. I guess there's something about religion that gets people going... They feel personally insulted, I guess.

religion covers many things about world view and is arguably the most important topic ever, as it decides much of how you perceive the world, and how you live your life. However, many people do not dare to openly speak about it, and many do not even bother to think about it at all. Like, really think about it for more than 10 minutes.

Many people feel in their heart that the universe is far too complex to have been randomly poofed into existence, yet to accept that there must be a god also means that one has to take responsibility for their own actions, which might be difficult if you're used to living a life without responsibilities. What's more, many people can not believe there's a god, because of all the hatred, violence, injustice, etc. in the world, so if there was a god, why all this trouble? why doesn't he do something about it? However, they do not study the subject, and just assume there is no god, while if they would take 10 minutes to study they would know the answer. If i made you wonder, why not read up on the subject yourself? Try starting here for example.

[zolace]

Same is true for the C&P in your post.  That undermined your case also.  No wonder you wish to move on.

Now, again, as far as happiness - my argument is not that atheists cannot be happy.  You know the old saying - ignorance is bliss.....

But seriously, from the above link you first provided - go back and see why the article says that atheists (or any Norwegian) are happy, and paste it here.

[Rigon]

The nations that are perennially happy with themselves and their government are filled with people with the least religion.  I've post a variety of reasons for this from every single link I provided.  Prosperity and freedoms are usually at the center.

I ask again....if you think you have a point......please make it.

[zolace]

The nations that are perennially happy with themselves and their government are filled with people with the least religion.  I've post a variety of reasons for this from every single link I provided.  Prosperity and freedoms are usually at the center.

I ask again....if you think you have a point......please make it.

So, your running away from that link you posted means you no longer have confidence that it supports your position.  Got it.

And your running away from what you C&P in your post - Ditto.  No wonder you did not fare well in that liberal thread in the other forum.  You really need to read your sources a bit more carefully.

[Rigon]

The nations that are perennially happy with themselves and their government are filled with people with the least religion.  I've post a variety of reasons for this from every single link I provided.  Prosperity and freedoms are usually at the center.

I ask again....if you think you have a point......please make it.

So, your running away from that link you posted means you no longer have confidence that it supports your position.  Got it.

And your running away from what you C&P in your post - Ditto.  No wonder you did not fare well in that liberal thread in the other forum.  You really need to read your sources a bit more carefully.

Who ran away from it?  It supports my position.  You and no one else can explain why socialist liberal nations with the least religion are so happy.

You are still free to make a point if you have one.  ready go.

[zolace]

So, as rigon has been unwilling to defend two of his sources (knowing as he does those sources failed to support his position), and given they were a tangent from the OP itself - state directed atheism, promotion of atheism by the state - then the conclusion that state promotion of atheism has never been a good thing stands.


To date, no one has been able to give an example of such a state that is worth embracing.

[zimmah]

Look ....with your indoctrinated mush of a brain, you are ALWAYS going to believe atheism is bad.  That's fine.  But when you dishonestly try to associate it with anything else bad you will be made a fool.......as always.   Atheism in and of itself does not result in bad behavior.  The evidence is clear.  The lowest crime rate of any nation on earth happens in a country with the most atheists.  Only 18% of people in Sweden believe there is a god.  This must clearly be a hellhole of a lawless nation ....no???   They have the lowest incarceration rate in the world and have the lowest assault rate in the world, five times lower than the US, a nation of good Christian believers.

You misunderstand almost completely.

This life is only for, maybe, a hundred years, but usually less. Following is eternity after the resurrection. Your proper belief in God in this life determines where you will spend eternity - a life of love and complete fulfillment with God in Heaven, or a life of continual dying in pain and agony in Hell.

One of the greatest reasons that atheists often have a good life is, the Devil has them already. He doesn't have to work at making their life miserable so that they turn away from God. Rather, he can spend his energies where they are needed, turning God fearing people away from God by making their life miserable.

The Devil is an enemy of God. He has lost the ages-old war with God. The mopping up is being done. His last stronghold is on earth. And he is using it to take down as many people of God as he can before the end finally comes, where he is tossed into the Lake of Fire, which is the dissolution of this whole universe into its component parts so that God can take His energy back, to use on things like the New Heavens and the New Earth.

People happen to be caught up in the middle of the final mopping up. And the reason science can't make heads or tails of what is happening is, they are unwilling to realize that there are such things as the Devil and God. They ignore most of the Reality Equation. The Devil wants it this way because, as the old saying goes, misery loves company. So, he pushes people every way that he can to make them deny God and become atheists, so they can't believe in God and be saved. It gives him more company.

What matters it to me whether or not anyone believes in God and is saved? It doesn't hurt me at all! But if you ARE an atheist, and you don't turn and look at the reality of God and the Devil during this life, when the truth is finally revealed to you in the resurrection, it will be too late for you to believe in God and be saved. You will find yourself thrown into the Lake of Fire along with the Devil and his buddy-angels, to spend eternity being destroyed in pain and anguish.

For your own good, wake up and see that this life was never meant to have anything "bad" happen in it at all. We were never meant to die. Death was brought about by people (Adam and Eve first) following the Devil rather than God, when he (the Devil) was thrown to earth during/after the battle for dominance. The Devil lost. God won. Our life here is the final chance a loving God is giving us, to turn to Him, and believe in Him so that we can be saved from the fate that awaits the Devil.

You atheists are completely throwing it away for yourselves.

Since you believe in heaven and hell, as a follower of christ to, what i assume a fellow christian, i ask you this:

Why do you think god created man, and what makes you think we will go to heaven after we die?

The original plan for god was to have man on earth, and fill the earth, and make a paradise out of earth.

Wouldn't it make more sense to create the earth anew, and have people populate the earth, as the earth originally was, in a paradise state, after the devil and all evil has been removed from it (after armageddon)?

Maleachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;

Seems to indicate Gods original plans did not change, why would he?

[Rigon]

So, as rigon has been unwilling to defend two of his sources (knowing as he does those sources failed to support his position), and given they were a tangent from the OP itself - state directed atheism, promotion of atheism by the state - then the conclusion that state promotion of atheism has never been a good thing stands.


To date, no one has been able to give an example of such a state that is worth embracing.

....because I demonstrated that atheism and an atheist state are two different things and you have is a spurious relationship in the term "atheist state" itself.....it implies the state was established because of atheism, when it is the other way around. Atheism was established because of a ruthless dictator who didn't want competition.  The nation isn't a horrible place because of atheism, it is a horrible place because of the ruthless dictator.   Spurious relationship.  

[zolace]

So, as rigon has been unwilling to defend two of his sources (knowing as he does those sources failed to support his position), and given they were a tangent from the OP itself - state directed atheism, promotion of atheism by the state - then the conclusion that state promotion of atheism has never been a good thing stands.


To date, no one has been able to give an example of such a state that is worth embracing.

....because I demonstrated that atheism and an atheist state are two different things and you have is a spurious relationship in the term "atheist state" itself.....it implies the state was established because of atheism, when it is the other way around. Atheism was established because of a ruthless dictator who didn't want competition.  The nation isn't a horrible place because of atheism, it is a horrible place because of the ruthless dictator.   Spurious relationship.  

No one was claiming they weren't different - pay attention.  The rest you are assuming.

Now, first link you used to in your defense was as follows:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/

[zimmah]

Zolace,if atheism is bad....how do you explain the happiness of the people and the low crime of the nation with the highest percentage of atheists?

Ready go....start not answering the question now.

Ok, Atheism is not bad, or at least, not worse than so called 'theist' countries, for whatever that's worth.

However, god promised us a time where he will rule the earth, and he will raise the death, cure the ill, cure anything like blindness, deaf, mutes, crippled, etc. No more famine, war, poverty, evil of any kind.

No matter how good your favorite country is, and how hard your favorite politician tries, theist or atheist alike, he can NEVER hope to pull this off.

Only god himself can.

[zolace]

Look ....with your indoctrinated mush of a brain, you are ALWAYS going to believe atheism is bad.  That's fine.  But when you dishonestly try to associate it with anything else bad you will be made a fool.......as always.   Atheism in and of itself does not result in bad behavior.  The evidence is clear.  The lowest crime rate of any nation on earth happens in a country with the most atheists.  Only 18% of people in Sweden believe there is a god.  This must clearly be a hellhole of a lawless nation ....no???   They have the lowest incarceration rate in the world and have the lowest assault rate in the world, five times lower than the US, a nation of good Christian believers.

You misunderstand almost completely.

This life is only for, maybe, a hundred years, but usually less. Following is eternity after the resurrection. Your proper belief in God in this life determines where you will spend eternity - a life of love and complete fulfillment with God in Heaven, or a life of continual dying in pain and agony in Hell.

One of the greatest reasons that atheists often have a good life is, the Devil has them already. He doesn't have to work at making their life miserable so that they turn away from God. Rather, he can spend his energies where they are needed, turning God fearing people away from God by making their life miserable.

The Devil is an enemy of God. He has lost the ages-old war with God. The mopping up is being done. His last stronghold is on earth. And he is using it to take down as many people of God as he can before the end finally comes, where he is tossed into the Lake of Fire, which is the dissolution of this whole universe into its component parts so that God can take His energy back, to use on things like the New Heavens and the New Earth.

People happen to be caught up in the middle of the final mopping up. And the reason science can't make heads or tails of what is happening is, they are unwilling to realize that there are such things as the Devil and God. They ignore most of the Reality Equation. The Devil wants it this way because, as the old saying goes, misery loves company. So, he pushes people every way that he can to make them deny God and become atheists, so they can't believe in God and be saved. It gives him more company.

What matters it to me whether or not anyone believes in God and is saved? It doesn't hurt me at all! But if you ARE an atheist, and you don't turn and look at the reality of God and the Devil during this life, when the truth is finally revealed to you in the resurrection, it will be too late for you to believe in God and be saved. You will find yourself thrown into the Lake of Fire along with the Devil and his buddy-angels, to spend eternity being destroyed in pain and anguish.

For your own good, wake up and see that this life was never meant to have anything "bad" happen in it at all. We were never meant to die. Death was brought about by people (Adam and Eve first) following the Devil rather than God, when he (the Devil) was thrown to earth during/after the battle for dominance. The Devil lost. God won. Our life here is the final chance a loving God is giving us, to turn to Him, and believe in Him so that we can be saved from the fate that awaits the Devil.

You atheists are completely throwing it away for yourselves.

Since you believe in heaven and hell, as a follower of christ to, what i assume a fellow christian, i ask you this:

Why do you think god created man, and what makes you think we will go to heaven after we die?

The original plan for god was to have man on earth, and fill the earth, and make a paradise out of earth.

Wouldn't it make more sense to create the earth anew, and have people populate the earth, as the earth originally was, in a paradise state, after the devil and all evil has been removed from it (after armageddon)?

Maleachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;

Seems to indicate Gods original plans did not change, why would he?

i can't answer why God created man.....after you die you go in heaven or hell...depends on your sins and what good you did .

Wouldn't it make more sense to create the earth anew, and have people populate the earth, as the earth originally was, in a paradise state, after the devil and all evil has been removed from it (after armageddon)?

i don\t know if you heard of this "God doesn't think like humans do"........

[zolace]

Now, if you think it still supports your position on Norway - copy and paste the part that does here.  If you don't, you are admitting that this link does not support your position, and we can then move to the next claim you used.

[Rigon]

The entire topic is drivel meant to imply something about atheism when it says absolutely nothing about it as I have demonstrated repeatedly.  Maybe this is why you have gotten no comments whatsoever other than to tell you what a dumb you are.  Don't you ever wonder why that is?

[zimmah]

To clarify the 'hope' - how would you 'sell' the idea?  Humans want both truth and hope - but usually hunger for hope more.

And since there is agreement that not all dictators are evil, do we have an example of a dictator promoting atheism that was not evil?

you are probably right.  Noth Korea was a wonderful place before the dictator promoted state atheism.  That was when they plummetted into the despair of human rights abuses. If Kim Jong only he let the people have their religion, then he wouldnt have abused them so much.  Makes perfect sense

The fact other majority atheist  nations have a population with low crime and happy people must be the spurious relationship.  The fact almost none of the 9% of american atheists are in prison can only mean Satan is helping them avoid capture by the godly police....because clearly they are all without morals and abusers of human rights.

Your people have had more than 2000 years/
You've had a good run, but today people as stupid as you are a dying breed.
Today, and in the future people understand  that the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus and Jesus are all the same.
Even today,  people know you are a lying sack of shit when you  say Jesus answers your prayers. You can't present anything that supports your beliefs.
Can you give us any good reason to believe that you are not just paranoid/delusional ?

the universe, what more proof do you need?

or do you believe the universe itself just randomly popped into existence some millions of years ago?

Now, if not for god, what caused this to happen?

Wouldn't it be MORE LOGICAL to assume some powerful spirit caused this to happen, possibly from outside our concept of space and time, or at least our limited perception of the 4 (possibly more) dimensions? Not necessarily almighty even (although in the bible he claims to be, and i personally believe that claim), but mighty and wise enough to create a perfect universe with perfect laws of nature , than it is to assume the universe just 'suddenly appeared' in all it's perfection?

Now THAT is a story I personally find too ridiculous for words. I'm amazed so many people actually believe that shit.

[Rigon]

Now, if you think it still supports your position on Norway - copy and paste the part that does here.  If you don't, you are admitting that this link does not support your position, and we can then move to the next claim you used.

I already did copy and paste the part that supports my position (the whole article does).  I already demonstrated my point.  Because your brainwashed mind doesn't agree is utterly and completely irrelevant.

If you have a point to make about atheism, are you considering making it or not?