Does God judge the nations?

[Nik1ab]

Does everyone agree about the death penalty and abortion?

Some say that doing those are murder, others do not.  Please, knock off the silliness about me redefining anything as if this subject is so esoteric.

How can the state murdering people not be considered as murder?

Ok, how about this?

Are there folk who think Bush is a murderer regarding the Iraqi war?  Are there folk who disagree?Are there folk who think that Hiroshima and Nagasaki was murder, and those who think not?

I like that quote of a french man. I can't remember his name unfortunately.
He said "When 1 million people are wrong, then those 1 million people are wrong."

[BitCoinNutJob]

If god is real he doesnt follow some socially constructed book.  He would likely be beyond good and evil, there are no judgements or punishments for anyone imo

[Rigon]

Does everyone agree about the death penalty and abortion?

Some say that doing those are murder, others do not.  Please, knock off the silliness about me redefining anything as if this subject is so esoteric.

How can the state murdering people not be considered as murder?

Ok, how about this?

Are there folk who think Bush is a murderer regarding the Iraqi war?  Are there folk who disagree?Are there folk who think that Hiroshima and Nagasaki was murder, and those who think not?

Agree or not, these examples are once again not remotely the same as killing women and children for the sole reason that they believe in other fairy tale gods.  Perhaps you ought to start a new thread to discuss whether (and when) war, judicial death penalties for crimes, and abortion constitute murder.   It might be an interesting topic. It just isnt germane to this one.

 In this instance the killing of women and children for their beliefs as instructed by God to Moses in the bible is clearly murder under ANY definition and in ANY context.

[sana8410]

Does everyone agree about the death penalty and abortion?

Some say that doing those are murder, others do not.  Please, knock off the silliness about me redefining anything as if this subject is so esoteric.

How can the state murdering people not be considered as murder?

Ok, how about this?

Are there folk who think Bush is a murderer regarding the Iraqi war?  Are there folk who disagree?Are there folk who think that Hiroshima and Nagasaki was murder, and those who think not?

"If your "god" commanded you to kill someone, would you kill them?"   Of course you never answered the question, but it does cause one to ponder.

The usual criteria for determining the definition of  murder  is understanding the difference between Right and Wrong.
You are on-record for not knowing the difference between Right and Wrong, Truth or Lies.

You have to draw a line somewhere, and basic understadning of Right and Wrong is a good place to draw the line.
You can't even man-up and define The Golden Rule!!!  That should be a clue.

[noviapriani]

Does everyone agree about the death penalty and abortion?

Some say that doing those are murder, others do not.  Please, knock off the silliness about me redefining anything as if this subject is so esoteric.

How can the state murdering people not be considered as murder?

Ok, how about this?

Are there folk who think Bush is a murderer regarding the Iraqi war?  Are there folk who disagree?Are there folk who think that Hiroshima and Nagasaki was murder, and those who think not?

"If your "god" commanded you to kill someone, would you kill them?"   Of course you never answered the question, but it does cause one to ponder.

The usual criteria for determining the definition of  murder  is understanding the difference between Right and Wrong.
You are on-record for not knowing the difference between Right and Wrong, Truth or Lies.

You have to draw a line somewhere, and basic understadning of Right and Wrong is a good place to draw the line.
You can't even man-up and define The Golden Rule!!!  That should be a clue.

And that is just it - not everyone agrees with what constitutes murder.  Your avoiding discussing these other examples just further underlines that.

You have yet to demonstrate why you feel this one example is absolute (even assuming your understanding is correct).


Let  me ask you - given the story of Noah's flood, where God directly brings judgement - do you feel that is murder?

[Rigon]

Item A:  It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.  People may have thought they were correct to do it at the time but their stupidity is irrelevant to the fact it was still murder.  I need not demonstrate this fact to any other human alive.  I think we all agree that killing someone for a harmless fairy tale belief they were likely born into is murder....but you.   Its like this...your beliefs are all wrong , but that is no good reason for me to justify killing you, right?  That would be murder, correct?  Its the same thing.

Item B:  Noah is a fairy tale, but if God did something like it such as breaking the Bosporus peninsula 8000 years ago and flooding the Med valley (which happened and could be the folk lure responsible for this fairy tale), then he murdered people ....and surely not all of them were bad.

[noviapriani]

Item A:  It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.  People may have thought they were correct to do it at the time but their stupidity is irrelevant to the fact it was still murder.  I need not demonstrate this fact to any other human alive.  I think we all agree that killing someone for a harmless fairy tale belief they were likely born into is murder....but you.   Its like this...your beliefs are all wrong , but that is no good reason for me to justify killing you, right?  That would be murder, correct?  Its the same thing.

Item B:  Noah is a fairy tale, but if God did something like it such as breaking the Bosporus peninsula 8000 years ago and flooding the Med valley (which happened and could be the folk lure responsible for this fairy tale), then he murdered people ....and surely not all of them were bad.

Noah is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale?

It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.

You are saying it has always been murder, even when folks thought they were correct to do so.  You are then saying that there is a moral principle that transcends the human race, that the human race is subject to?

[Rigon]

Item A:  It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.  People may have thought they were correct to do it at the time but their stupidity is irrelevant to the fact it was still murder.  I need not demonstrate this fact to any other human alive.  I think we all agree that killing someone for a harmless fairy tale belief they were likely born into is murder....but you.   Its like this...your beliefs are all wrong , but that is no good reason for me to justify killing you, right?  That would be murder, correct?  Its the same thing.

Item B:  Noah is a fairy tale, but if God did something like it such as breaking the Bosporus peninsula 8000 years ago and flooding the Med valley (which happened and could be the folk lure responsible for this fairy tale), then he murdered people ....and surely not all of them were bad.

Noah is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale?

It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.

You are saying it has always been murder, even when folks thought they were correct to do so.  You are then saying that there is a moral principle that transcends the human race, that the human race is subject to?

I am saying that putting someone to death for a harmless belief should certainly always be considered murder.

[noviapriani]

The foundations of law and order have collapsed. What can the righteous do?" Psalm 11:3

When the foundations of the country are destroyed, what's going to happen? The entire country is going to collapse and there will be an implosion. The enemy is within. When the moral fiber breaks down, the family breaks down. Once the family breaks down, we don't have a country anymore. We are at the point that is very much like when the Roman Empire was beginning to disintegrate. We are at the same point in history. I never dreamed this would happen in my lifetime, but we are there. Those who are younger than I will see the destruction and fall of this society.

Then, what will have to happen will be for a great one world government to try to salvage things as the moral fiber disintegrates. It's all preparing the way for the Lord's return.

"The nations have sunk down in the pit which they have made; In the net which they hid, their own foot has been caught. The Lord has made Himself known; He has executed judgment. In the work of his own hands the wicked is snared. . . . Even all the nations who forget God. . . . Let the nations know that they are but men." Psalm 9:15-20, NASB 

[zolace]

The foundations of law and order have collapsed. What can the righteous do?" Psalm 11:3

When the foundations of the country are destroyed, what's going to happen? The entire country is going to collapse and there will be an implosion. The enemy is within. When the moral fiber breaks down, the family breaks down. Once the family breaks down, we don't have a country anymore. We are at the point that is very much like when the Roman Empire was beginning to disintegrate. We are at the same point in history. I never dreamed this would happen in my lifetime, but we are there. Those who are younger than I will see the destruction and fall of this society.

Then, what will have to happen will be for a great one world government to try to salvage things as the moral fiber disintegrates. It's all preparing the way for the Lord's return.

"The nations have sunk down in the pit which they have made; In the net which they hid, their own foot has been caught. The Lord has made Himself known; He has executed judgment. In the work of his own hands the wicked is snared. . . . Even all the nations who forget God. . . . Let the nations know that they are but men." Psalm 9:15-20, NASB 

The title of your post asked does God judge the nations as if it were in the OT, and where your verses you point out are from. I assumed then other nations would be more in favor. I just don't see any NT evidence this is still the way. And your whole breakdown of family theory sounds like you have a particular type of family in mind, or that individuals can't love their country or have morals unless they are part of this particular family unit

[noviapriani]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

[noviapriani]

And there are folks who consider abortion murder, and others who consider the death penalty murder, and others who consider the bombing of Hiroshima murder, and others who feel Bush is a murderer.

I understand your sentiment - but, you do make it sound like it is more than just your own personal view on murder. 

[zolace]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

[noviapriani]

Item A:  It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.  People may have thought they were correct to do it at the time but their stupidity is irrelevant to the fact it was still murder.  I need not demonstrate this fact to any other human alive.  I think we all agree that killing someone for a harmless fairy tale belief they were likely born into is murder....but you.   Its like this...your beliefs are all wrong , but that is no good reason for me to justify killing you, right?  That would be murder, correct?  Its the same thing.

Item B:  Noah is a fairy tale, but if God did something like it such as breaking the Bosporus peninsula 8000 years ago and flooding the Med valley (which happened and could be the folk lure responsible for this fairy tale), then he murdered people ....and surely not all of them were bad.

Noah is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale?

It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.

You are saying it has always been murder, even when folks thought they were correct to do so.  You are then saying that there is a moral principle that transcends the human race, that the human race is subject to?

I am saying that putting someone to death for a harmless belief should certainly always be considered murder.

And  your objection to discussing Noah and the flood is that he is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale, since you did not object to discussing that?

[noviapriani]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

Well, Romans 1 does speak of God's judgment, yes?  I think you are saying that you don't see the judgement as nation specific - is that what you mean?


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse

[catlinhappy]

God will surely judge the nation because they think they have all they want but not knowing that God is just been patient.

[alwinlinzee]

Of course, He does thats why you have series of disease out breaks and terrorist attacks here and there.

[Rigon]

Item A:  It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.  People may have thought they were correct to do it at the time but their stupidity is irrelevant to the fact it was still murder.  I need not demonstrate this fact to any other human alive.  I think we all agree that killing someone for a harmless fairy tale belief they were likely born into is murder....but you.   Its like this...your beliefs are all wrong , but that is no good reason for me to justify killing you, right?  That would be murder, correct?  Its the same thing.

Item B:  Noah is a fairy tale, but if God did something like it such as breaking the Bosporus peninsula 8000 years ago and flooding the Med valley (which happened and could be the folk lure responsible for this fairy tale), then he murdered people ....and surely not all of them were bad.

Noah is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale?

It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.

You are saying it has always been murder, even when folks thought they were correct to do so.  You are then saying that there is a moral principle that transcends the human race, that the human race is subject to?

I am saying that putting someone to death for a harmless belief should certainly always be considered murder.

And  your objection to discussing Noah and the flood is that he is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale, since you did not object to discussing that?

How hard is it for you to understand that I feel the bible is a book of folk lure..with perhaps some vague truths and other long forgotten lure and some just plain fairy tales.  I really dont give a shit about parsing which is which in the entire book. It is most likely that none of it is pure historical truth.  We cant even agree on how things happened last year when we have it on video, so the odds of a 2000 year old book translated in dozens of languages being "truth" is pretty much zero.

[umair127]

Well, trying to follow this but it seems to be going in circles... anyway if you are trying to discuss something from God or about God and you are using today's dictionary definitions, you are automatically in error...

G1484

ἔθνoς

ethnos

eth'-nos

Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

The nation is just a group of people, today's definition is the border that encompasses a nation, God actually doesn't see it that way, he sees it as groups of people, basically families.

You guys touched on abortion for a moment... search the Scriptures and find out what happened to those nations who killed their children... as a practice or a common thing. (not pleasant)

and just because you think you are enlightened, just realize that those people also thought they were enlightened.

And as far as murder goes, the Scriptures also are pretty explicit on what constitutes murder and what does not...

now the great what-if...

if there is a God and you stand in judgment, will you have the correct answers?

Now if you run this backwards, the Scriptures do contain the correct answers...

and how would they do that unless there was a reason.

For a judging...

and if there is a judging, there is a judge.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works

well the Bible actually contains numerous books and you will be judged by what is written in those books...

and catch the word dead... the dead are judged, not the living.
Just like Jesus told the man who said first let me go bury my father and Jesus told him let the dead bury the dead...
so even though you may be breathing, God may consider you already dead.

And even though I do find it fascinating, when you understand all of the prophecies or at least the vast majority of them, who is who and what will be happening and where it will be happening and who is involved and who is not involved... a few more things fall into place and we may be finding out relatively soon whether or not all of this is true.

And sadly there are no mulligans...

and also, I really no longer care... if someone wants to learn, I will teach them all day long, if not, it's not worth my time to argue, so they are on their own and I will not look back.

[BADecker]

Of course he does. He instructs good christians to destry nations that worship other gods in Deuteronomy.  Go kill the fuckers and take all their shit if they worship anyone else. Aint the god that man fabricated great?

God's whole idea is to save people for Heaven and eternal life. God has given the nations time to change and to align themselves with Him so that they will be saved. Rather than follow what He attempts to discipline them into, they reject Him. It is THEN that He instructs believers to destroy them, only after the nations will not change.

There are two major benefits to the destroyed nations for their destruction. The first is that, why should they have children that they will train in their ways, so that their children are destroyed as well, and then their children's children?

The second is, why should God let them keep on defying Him. Such defiance will bring punishment in the afterlife. So, if a person in a destroyed nation has built up personal defiance of God for 25 years rather than for 50 years, God will only have 25 years of defiance to punish him for in the afterlife, rather than 50 years. So, God is really doing them a favor by destroying them.