Does God judge the nations?

[noviapriani]

Most faiths refer to some type of individual judgement, be it from the Creator, or some other source.

Not sure how many refer to God also judging the nations.  The Bible does (both Old and New), and I think the Koran does.

Psalm 2 in the Bible refers to this judgement, among other passages.  So does Psalm 9.  Below iit is being applied to the United States.   Romans chapter 1 comes to mind also.

The nations have sunk down in the pit which they have made;" Psalm 9:15a, NASB

I don't know what better commentary there could be on the world right now than this verse. The nations have literally sunk into a pit! Our nation is far from what it was even fifteen years ago in terms of morality.

Television offers scores of channels which have desensitized us to violence and sexual immorality.

Life has been devalued to the point that late-term abortions are performed and it is now acceptable to kill a child while it's being born.

It will not be long and the same devaluation of life that has been placed on the innocent unborn will be applied to the elderly and disabled.

While men and women gorge themselves on Internet pornography, family life has disintegrated to the point that over fifty percent of children live in homes without a father.

Without a moral compass, once righteous, free nations will lose political discernment and fall prey to the power of enemies hell-bent on their subjection or destruction.

Yet, those who dare raise a voice of warning or dissent are marginalized or demonized.

The Bible warns that the pit the nations have dug, they will fall into and this will be the undoing of our society.

There is a moral line, after which a civilization passes, that will cause it to self-destruct. We must realize God's judgment is often poured out silently. He gives a society over to its evil desires and it cannibalizes itself. It sinks down into the pit it has dug.

As the pit is dug deeper, the window of escape narrows until there is no possibility of turning back, in the will of God, consequences begin to march the society and/or the civilization to destruction.

What can we do? We can continue to make our voice heard and resist growing callous to sin. We must stay hot-hearted in our love and devotion to our Lord Jesus and take strong, courageous stands for the truth. We must gather together to pray. And we must pray, and when we have prayed, we must pray and pray more.

The Lord promises:

"…if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14 

[Rigon]

Of course he does. He instructs good christians to destry nations that worship other gods in Deuteronomy.  Go kill the fuckers and take all their shit if they worship anyone else. Aint the god that man fabricated great?

[kuroman]

according to Christianism, Islam, Judaism, God do punish nations, population, group of people and there were many examples cited in each

[HarmonLi]

If god was real, I guess he/she/it would judge the nations that don't adhere to his/her/its respective religion. So I guess the Christian god judges the islamic countries, and vice versa, for example. I thin it's a bad system, because it's based on hate and intolerance.

[elliwilli]

All questions about "Judgement" are odd, if your religions god is so benevolent why would he feel the need to judge? everyone one has at least one redeeming characteristic. and to pass judgement on an entire nation because of the ideologies and thoughts of their leaders is a bit harsh especially if these people have been indoctrinated/brainwashed (Eg North Korea, Nazi Germany)

[noviapriani]

Hmm.   Seeing there were no Christians before the book of Acts, pretty neat trick, eh?Might check again - who is God giving instructions to in that book?

[sana8410]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

[noviapriani]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

[Rigon]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

Answer 1.  Who gives a shit and what does it matter?  You believe your god instructed people to murder anyone who didnt believe in him.  Thats what is says in black and white in Deuteronomy.  Great god huh? 

Answer 2.  A make believe man cant actually give instructions.

[elliwilli]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

But if you are given orders to destroy and kill surely that's in Vengeance? Making all gods Vengeful gods, let alone contradicting a load of the 613 commandments...
And now the counterpoint to theism, "If the big bang came from nowhere, where did god come from to create the universe if no universe existed before him?"

[DjPxH]

I think it depends on the god in question (or the supposedly god in question). If they are nice gods they'll most likely only ask their followers to adhere to certain rules or principles. I don't think they'd judge states or nations in general, but rather individual people, according to the things they've done. But then again, there may be 'evil' gods who demand to be the only god.

[noviapriani]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

Answer 1.  Who gives a shit and what does it matter?  You believe your god instructed people to murder anyone who didnt believe in him.  Thats what is says in black and white in Deuteronomy.  Great god huh? 

Answer 2.  A make believe man cant actually give instructions.

Now, the first answer actual is one of substance.  My point is that you don't really do your homework, so not sure replying to that point is of any value with you.

It is one thing to object - it is another to do with no interest in the facts.

[noviapriani]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

But if you are given orders to destroy and kill surely that's in Vengeance? Making all gods Vengeful gods, let alone contradicting a load of the 613 commandments...
And now the counterpoint to theism, "If the big bang came from nowhere, where did god come from to create the universe if no universe existed before him?"

But, lets see how far we go - taking the position (for arguement sake) that it is indeed the Creator giving the instructions to eliminate these nations (nations, mind you, involved in great evil according to the text), how is it murder?

[noviapriani]

None of us actually believes that all killing of a human being is murder.  True?  So, what makes this murder?

[elliwilli]

Because taking another humans life is murder...
just because someone is evil does not mean they have to be killed, every civilized country recognizes this and as such have these things called Jails.

[Nik1ab]

Because taking another humans life is murder...
just because someone is evil does not mean they have to be killed, every civilized country recognizes this and as such have these things called Jails.

Yeah because locking them up is so much better than killing them.... /sarcasm

[Rigon]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

But if you are given orders to destroy and kill surely that's in Vengeance? Making all gods Vengeful gods, let alone contradicting a load of the 613 commandments...
And now the counterpoint to theism, "If the big bang came from nowhere, where did god come from to create the universe if no universe existed before him?"

But, lets see how far we go - taking the position (for arguement sake) that it is indeed the Creator giving the instructions to eliminate these nations (nations, mind you, involved in great evil according to the text), how is it murder?

Deuteronomy was attributed to Moses according to the bible.  Jesus himself says Moses wrote it and that people should believe the words.

 "For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me (See Deut. 18:15-18). But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:46-47).

So jesus is saying that Moses is right in Deuteronomy...and jesus is lord....no???

[Rigon]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

[noviapriani]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

But if you are given orders to destroy and kill surely that's in Vengeance? Making all gods Vengeful gods, let alone contradicting a load of the 613 commandments...
And now the counterpoint to theism, "If the big bang came from nowhere, where did god come from to create the universe if no universe existed before him?"

But, lets see how far we go - taking the position (for arguement sake) that it is indeed the Creator giving the instructions to eliminate these nations (nations, mind you, involved in great evil according to the text), how is it murder?

Deuteronomy was attributed to Moses according to the bible.  Jesus himself says Moses wrote it and that people should believe the words.

 "For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me (See Deut. 18:15-18). But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:46-47).

So jesus is saying that Moses is right in Deuteronomy...and jesus is lord....no???

Yes, Jesus is right about Moses.  And yes, Moses words are from God.   And therefore.....?

[Rigon]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

But if you are given orders to destroy and kill surely that's in Vengeance? Making all gods Vengeful gods, let alone contradicting a load of the 613 commandments...
And now the counterpoint to theism, "If the big bang came from nowhere, where did god come from to create the universe if no universe existed before him?"

But, lets see how far we go - taking the position (for arguement sake) that it is indeed the Creator giving the instructions to eliminate these nations (nations, mind you, involved in great evil according to the text), how is it murder?

Deuteronomy was attributed to Moses according to the bible.  Jesus himself says Moses wrote it and that people should believe the words.

 "For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me (See Deut. 18:15-18). But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:46-47).

So jesus is saying that Moses is right in Deuteronomy...and jesus is lord....no???

Yes, Jesus is right about Moses.  And yes, Moses words are from God.   And therefore.....?

......therefore god instructs us to put to death anyone who worships another.   Are you fucking dense or something? Have you been paying any attention at all?  (Rhetorical questions)

[elliwilli]

Have you ever thought that the bible could just be a big collection of fables?
Y'know, stories with a moral message behind them? i mean it makes sence doesnt it, they follow so many tropes of fairy tales "There is a big bad who is watching you so be good".
actually its kinda like Father Christmas/Santa/Your regional variant in a way "Be good or you wont get presents" > "Be good or you go to hell"

[noviapriani]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

[Slark]

Everytime I see 'religious' topic here on forum, or wherever in general there is fighting. Always. How can you people can't understand that you know NOTHING of GOD or greater power. Imagine ants talking about their gods it is funny for you? That is what we all are. We can only repeat some words people before us write or say without real proofs. Just lieve good life and it would be enough for you or your God.

[Rigon]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

Its the "putting people to death" part that makes it murder. Killing someone because they worship another god is murder no matter how much an idiot like yourself tries to rationalize it.  Call it murder, a "death penalty", punishment...whatever  you want to call it.  Your god commands you to put people to death who simply worship another god.   great guy isn’t he???

[noviapriani]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

But if you are given orders to destroy and kill surely that's in Vengeance? Making all gods Vengeful gods, let alone contradicting a load of the 613 commandments...
And now the counterpoint to theism, "If the big bang came from nowhere, where did god come from to create the universe if no universe existed before him?"

But, lets see how far we go - taking the position (for arguement sake) that it is indeed the Creator giving the instructions to eliminate these nations (nations, mind you, involved in great evil according to the text), how is it murder?

Deuteronomy was attributed to Moses according to the bible.  Jesus himself says Moses wrote it and that people should believe the words.

 "For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me (See Deut. 18:15-18). But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:46-47).

So jesus is saying that Moses is right in Deuteronomy...and jesus is lord....no???

Yes, Jesus is right about Moses.  And yes, Moses words are from God.   And therefore.....?

......therefore god instructs us to put to death anyone who worships another.   Are you fucking dense or something? Have you been paying any attention at all?  (Rhetorical questions)

It may or may not.  See, that is where context helps.  Jesus is right about Moses - but on this, can you demonstrate who the instructions God to Moses were applicable to?  Have you even bothered to look?

A simple illustration - a parent gives instruction to one son, does it automatically follow that this instruction applies to all his/her kids 

[Hustle2survive]

god wants to kill the other gods like the christian god wants to kill muslim god. god wars.

[noviapriani]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

Its the "putting people to death" part that makes it murder. Killing someone because they worship another god is murder no matter how much an idiot like yourself tries to rationalize it.  Call it murder, a "death penalty", punishment...whatever  you want to call it.  Your god commands you to put people to death who simply worship another god.   great guy isn’t he???

Still not anwering the question - unless you are saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

[Rigon]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

Its the "putting people to death" part that makes it murder. Killing someone because they worship another god is murder no matter how much an idiot like yourself tries to rationalize it.  Call it murder, a "death penalty", punishment...whatever  you want to call it.  Your god commands you to put people to death who simply worship another god.   great guy isn’t he???

Still not anwering the question - unless you are saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

Putting anyone to death for worshiping in a different way is always murder .  But recall i said i could give a shit what you call it.  God was telling Moses that people who worship other gods should be killed.  There is no way to interpret that in a good light .  Great god huh?

[HarmonLi]

Everytime I see 'religious' topic here on forum, or wherever in general there is fighting. Always. How can you people can't understand that you know NOTHING of GOD or greater power. Imagine ants talking about their gods it is funny for you? That is what we all are. We can only repeat some words people before us write or say without real proofs. Just lieve good life and it would be enough for you or your God.

I think this is part of how religions work. Religions are concepts that people adopt. They are convinced that the teachings of their respective religion are real. Yet, they can't prove them. They'll never be able to! And yet they feel the urge to convince other people that their religion is the 'right' one. It's a vicious circle that can't be broken, I guess...

[sana8410]

It was what it was, if there's a God that all things and people were created from and at that time others idols were worshiped, that would mean eventually they would have destroyed Israel and worshiped something other than the true God
Too noviapriani's point i don't see a lot of evidence God favors nations anymore except in a spiritual sense or a nation of believers. Nations may be used to full-fill certain prophecy but that's all

[noviapriani]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

Its the "putting people to death" part that makes it murder. Killing someone because they worship another god is murder no matter how much an idiot like yourself tries to rationalize it.  Call it murder, a "death penalty", punishment...whatever  you want to call it.  Your god commands you to put people to death who simply worship another god.   great guy isn’t he???

Still not anwering the question - unless you are saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

Putting anyone to death for worshiping in a different way is always murder .  But recall i said i could give a shit what you call it.  God was telling Moses that people who worship other gods should be killed.  There is no way to interpret that in a good light .  Great god huh?

As Sana points out - to worship something other than one's own Creator is wrong.

In fact, dangerous and leads to evil.

[elliwilli]

I think it would be a lot easier if all gods were like the ones in Black And White.

[TheFootMan]

For a God to judge, there need to exist a God. Usually - when making a claim, you have to prove that is is true. Many religions state that their religion is the only 'right' one.

It's funny then that we have a lot of religions all claiming this. So what are the possible scenarios:

1. They're all right.
2. They're all wrong.
3. At least one of them are right.

As for alternative 1. it's possible that there exist several Gods, each of which have their own following, or that there exists only one God, only called with different names for every group of followers. Alternative 2 is the most likely imo, while alternative 3 seems very unlikely still imo.

So if we work under the assumption that there's no God, there's no God to judge any nation. On the off chance that there actually exists a God, I doubt it would be a silly as to judge an entire nation.

What is a nation? Let's for the sake of simplicity define it as all the people living within some artificial borders drawn up on a map. Some of those people will be really bad, some of them will be really good, and there will be a lot of them not being particular good, or particular bad, just normal average people who care mostly about themselves and their families.

Judging a large group of people because of the action of a minority of them, would be stupid. If God exists, he's not stupid, and he would promote love, not hate. We must realize that religious books are written by people, to sway and control people. There's always a motive for writing a religious book. If there's a book, and it promotes any kind of hatred or violence, that hatred or violence are promoted by the humans writing that very book.

There's no such people as 'Gods people'. That's utter nonsense. There might be groups that have decided that they really are 'Gods people' to make them appear better than everyone else. In reality they're not.

Point blank, people need to stop being idiots, and look at life for what it is, and not point to any fairytale figure in the sky that's the answer to everything, and certainly not be as stupid as to believe that a religious book is somehow special, and that everything in that book is true.

World governments have been caught in blatant lies, so have religious leaders - all have an agenda - and you think such an agenda is not funneled into a religious book?

To make any kind of rational and logical arguments, you need to lose the religious fanaticism and educate yourself.

In my opinion, there's no omnipotent God, and your life will mainly be governed by your own will, and randomly there can happen unexpected positive or bad things.

No man or woman that's sane will chose to risk to die for their 'motherland' on a daily basis. The point is that the 'motherland' does not care. A solider is a tool, once he's dead, he'll be replaced. His family will grief, the 'motherland' will not. True, there might be some superficial ceremonies and medals being dished out, but once all of that's gone - the family sits there with their loss, while the 'motherland' cares no more.

All this idiocy about God judging this or that, please stop it.

[Rigon]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

Its the "putting people to death" part that makes it murder. Killing someone because they worship another god is murder no matter how much an idiot like yourself tries to rationalize it.  Call it murder, a "death penalty", punishment...whatever  you want to call it.  Your god commands you to put people to death who simply worship another god.   great guy isn’t he???

Still not anwering the question - unless you are saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

Putting anyone to death for worshiping in a different way is always murder .  But recall i said i could give a shit what you call it.  God was telling Moses that people who worship other gods should be killed.  There is no way to interpret that in a good light .  Great god huh?

As Sana points out - to worship something other than one's own Creator is wrong.

In fact, dangerous and leads to evil.

Well there you have it.  If you are a brainwashed  and believe that shit then I guess you can convince yourself its OK to murder someone who happens to think differently than you. This would make you essentially no different than a brainwashed islamic terrorist.

[Rigon]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

[Gleb Gamow]

"Not this again!"

[noviapriani]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

I suppose if one lived in your world, where reading comprehesion and integrity is optional.

By the way, still waiting for you answer here:

Are you saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

[TheFootMan]

As Sana points out - to worship something other than one's own Creator is wrong.

In fact, dangerous and leads to evil.

Not sure if trolling...

But I'll bite..

Did you ask yourself this question:

How do I know who is my Creator? Who told me this? Do the ones who told me have an agenda? Is there any proof that my Creator even exists, or is it just something I'm told by people so often until I accepted it as a truth? No matter where you live, do you realize that your entire life is formed by your culture, the values and customs that exist where you live? Do you realize that if you were born somewhere else, you would have a different set of values, and living in an other culture, and having an entirely different view on life? So in reality, which religion you've been sucked into depends on were you're born basically.

It's a bit like chosing a TV-show, or supporting a soccer team, since you support a particular team, then it's 'the only right one'. And all other is shit. It's not a very mature attitude.

You state that to worship anything else than your own Creator is wrong and is dangerous and lead to evil, seems to indicate you're still stuck in the same mindset as those of the middle ages. The truth is that any opinion that you have about worshipping anything else than your Creator is dangerous and leading to evil, is an opinion made by humans. Most often such statements are outdated, and they're made to gather a certain amount of people in a certain religion. Fear is a powerful tool, and if you can control people's mind, you control people. In reality, the only thing to fear is fear itself.

Stating it would be dangerous and lead to evil to worship anything but your Creator is hillarious. I don't pray to a God. Every day I go outside my door, I can decide whether I want to be god or bad. There's no God influencing this choice. There's no God or Creator having copyrighted good actions.

Being a muslim, hindu, catholic, buddhist or whatever - it's the persons choice to be good or bad. All religions have their rotten eggs. Heck, there might be no difference between an atheist and a buddhist, an atheist can be an oustanding individual, doing a lot of good for himself and society, just like a buddhist could be a really bad person.

So no matter, if you chose to be a devoted muslim, a devoted christian or whatever, if you go alongside a road, and you see a basket with some kittens in it, that's left to die, its your choice whether you want to reach out and help them, or to just walk way not caring. It has nothing to do with your religion, it has all to do with you.

I never pray to God, but when I see a smal frog on the road, I take it up and put it in the ditch. Which probably makes me a good person in your eyes, as I'm saving it. On the other side, I often kill snails, which are invading the area where I live, this might make me evil in your eyes.

Point is that, evil or bad - we all have both of it in us, and we choose ourselves what we think shall prevail. A fundamentally good person, is fundamentally a good person, no matter which religion he belongs to or if he has no religion at all.

[noviapriani]

I am not trolling....and i asked myself those questions many times....but i choose to believe my religion....and as long as i don't harm others with my believe i don't see what is wrong with it.I don't judge you for saving the life of some animals and kill the others, i do the same,and probably makes me good and bad in the same time.I started this topic to see peoples opinion and to find answers to my questions.

[Rigon]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

I suppose if one lived in your world, where reading comprehesion and integrity is optional.

By the way, still waiting for you answer here:

Are you saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

I dont really care about your irrelevent question about other instances where killing may or may not be murder.  We are talking about one specific situation....

The one specific situation we are discussigin is where a person has a different faith and is put to death, killed, murdered, terminated, etc. for simply having that different faith.   You can call it what you like but that is murder.

[noviapriani]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

I suppose if one lived in your world, where reading comprehesion and integrity is optional.

By the way, still waiting for you answer here:

Are you saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

I dont really care about your irrelevent question about other instances where killing may or may not be murder.  We are talking about one specific situation....

The one specific situation we are discussigin is where a person has a different faith and is put to death, killed, murdered, terminated, etc. for simply having that different faith.   You can call it what you like but that is murder.

that is not what this topic is about, rigon.  Emotional responses have their place, but, should not be running the show.

[TheFootMan]

I am not trolling....and i asked myself those questions many times....but i choose to believe my religion....and as long as i don't harm others with my believe i don't see what is wrong with it.I don't judge you for saving the life of some animals and kill the others, i do the same,and probably makes me good and bad in the same time.I started this topic to see peoples opinion and to find answers to my questions.

I respect that people have religious views, although I do not share those views personally.

I never stated being religious is wrong, as in fact most religious people are good people, however it's the fanaticism I'm against, and killing in the name of a religion is wrong. I also think it's wrong when a religion governs the life or a person to such an extent that the person lives a poorer life (fear of damnation if doing anything wrong).

[Rigon]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

I suppose if one lived in your world, where reading comprehesion and integrity is optional.

By the way, still waiting for you answer here:

Are you saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

I dont really care about your irrelevent question about other instances where killing may or may not be murder.  We are talking about one specific situation....

The one specific situation we are discussigin is where a person has a different faith and is put to death, killed, murdered, terminated, etc. for simply having that different faith.   You can call it what you like but that is murder.

that is not what this topic is about, rigon.  Emotional responses have their place, but, should not be running the show.

The specific situation we are discussigin is where a person has a different faith and is put to death, killed, murdered, terminated, etc. for simply having that different faith (as god commanded Moses apparantly). You can call it what you like but that is murder.

[Rigon]

More accurately it's called, genocide.In the case of the Israelites murdering non-Israelites, some may prefer the term, "Ethnic Cleansing".

[TheFootMan]

The specific situation we are discussigin is where a person has a different faith and is put to death, killed, murdered, terminated, etc. for simply having that different faith (as god commanded Moses apparantly). You can call it what you like but that is murder.

I'm flabbergasted that in this time and age, some people are killing other people because they believe in a different fantasy-person than themselves. When I read such news, I feel that I'm looking into the dark ages of the history of some very primitive planet.

There is so much to be said about this. I do think lack of education has a very strong part of this. I find it hard to believe that a university educated person would still hold beliefs that a certain religion is superior to others, and thus the others needs to be killed. But on the other hand, I might be wrong, and some of those university educated people are even more dangerous as they will use their knowledge to manipulate others to follow their agenda.

People are people, no matter their makeup, and most people just want to live in peace.

[noviapriani]

More accurately it's called, genocide.In the case of the Israelites murdering non-Israelites, some may prefer the term, "Ethnic Cleansing".

Actually, if you read the account, it was not for having a 'different faith'.

But, lets go with your error and again ask - what determines that something is murder?  Some folks think aborting babies is murder - not all.  Some folk think the government executing murderers or rapists is murder - other folkd do not.

What makes your interpretation of murder the correct one?

[Rigon]

More accurately it's called, genocide.In the case of the Israelites murdering non-Israelites, some may prefer the term, "Ethnic Cleansing".

Actually, if you read the account, it was not for having a 'different faith'.

But, lets go with your error and again ask - what determines that something is murder?  Some folks think aborting babies is murder - not all.  Some folk think the government executing murderers or rapists is murder - other folkd do not.

What makes your interpretation of murder the correct one?

Believing in a different god is having a different faith.  Believing anything differently means having a different faith. It is not an error.  Deuteronomy says (God to Moses) kill people who worship other gods.  Worshiping other gods means your faith is different.  How many ways do I have to explain something so simple to you?

[noviapriani]

More accurately it's called, genocide.In the case of the Israelites murdering non-Israelites, some may prefer the term, "Ethnic Cleansing".

Actually, if you read the account, it was not for having a 'different faith'.

But, lets go with your error and again ask - what determines that something is murder?  Some folks think aborting babies is murder - not all.  Some folk think the government executing murderers or rapists is murder - other folkd do not.

What makes your interpretation of murder the correct one?

Believing in a different god is having a different faith.  Believing anything differently means having a different faith. It is not an error.  Deuteronomy says (God to Moses) kill people who worship other gods.  Worshiping other gods means your faith is different.  How many ways do I have to explain something so simple to you?

Ah, you are saying this is an objective truth that transcends what humans think?  Hmm, interesting.So, what is this source of absolute truth?

[Rigon]

Killing people for believing other things has always been murder.  It will always be murder no matter what people used to think.  It is also genocide.   We are not talking about capital punishment, we are not talking abortion...all interesting topics that you might want to start another thread about.  We are talking about a biblical command to put adult human beings to death for no other reason than they worship differently.  This is murder.

[noviapriani]

Killing people for believing other things has always been murder.  It will always be murder no matter what people used to think.  It is also genocide.   We are not talking about capital punishment, we are not talking abortion...all interesting topics that you might want to start another thread about.  We are talking about a biblical command to put adult human beings to death for no other reason than they worship differently.  This is murder.

We are talking about the nations  and the people destroyed, yes?

Look at the context.  You need to work on that.  There were nations with different faiths that God instructed Moses and Joshua to leave alone, for example.   What was different about the nations they met once they crossed the Jordon river?

If it was simply due to having a different faith, why were not Edom, Moab, etc, included?

And the nations who did worship other gods - what did that worship include?

[sana8410]

More accurately it's called, genocide.In the case of the Israelites murdering non-Israelites, some may prefer the term, "Ethnic Cleansing".

Actually, if you read the account, it was not for having a 'different faith'.

But, lets go with your error and again ask - what determines that something is murder?  Some folks think aborting babies is murder - not all.  Some folk think the government executing murderers or rapists is murder - other folkd do not.

What makes your interpretation of murder the correct one?

True.  If the nations the Israelites allegedly murdered had converted and worshiped the Hebrew "god", the Israelites would have murdered them anyway.


Is there a point to this? After all, it's just a fairy tale.

[noviapriani]

More accurately it's called, genocide.In the case of the Israelites murdering non-Israelites, some may prefer the term, "Ethnic Cleansing".

Actually, if you read the account, it was not for having a 'different faith'.

But, lets go with your error and again ask - what determines that something is murder?  Some folks think aborting babies is murder - not all.  Some folk think the government executing murderers or rapists is murder - other folkd do not.

What makes your interpretation of murder the correct one?

True.  If the nations the Israelites allegedly murdered had converted and worshiped the Hebrew "god", the Israelites would have murdered them anyway.


Is there a point to this? After all, it's just a fairy tale.

Again, not true, if one reads the history of the Israeli nation there, be it Joshua, or before or after (Samuel).

[RodeoX]

Oh, I thought we were talking about Mithra. What god are you guys on about? There are so many.

[Rigon]

Here's whats true......your God told Moses that people who worship other gods should be put to death...aka murdered.  Awesome God.

[TheFootMan]

But, lets go with your error and again ask - what determines that something is murder?

This has more of a pure academic cent to it.

There are edge cases where you could discuss whether something is murder or not. But in this discussion I think it's very clear. If some person is killed because he believes in a different fantasy-figure, or believes in no fantasy-figure at all, that's outright murder. If a group of such people is killed, it's genocide and a crime against humanity.

[TheFootMan]

Here's whats true......your God told Moses that people who worship other gods should be put to death...aka murdered.  Awesome God.

How do we know that this is true? Because it's in a book? Everything that's written in a book must be true, and esp. if that book is very old...

[sana8410]

More accurately it's called, genocide.In the case of the Israelites murdering non-Israelites, some may prefer the term, "Ethnic Cleansing".

Actually, if you read the account, it was not for having a 'different faith'.

But, lets go with your error and again ask - what determines that something is murder?  Some folks think aborting babies is murder - not all.  Some folk think the government executing murderers or rapists is murder - other folkd do not.

What makes your interpretation of murder the correct one?

True.  If the nations the Israelites allegedly murdered had converted and worshiped the Hebrew "god", the Israelites would have murdered them anyway.


Is there a point to this? After all, it's just a fairy tale.

Again, not true, if one reads the history of the Israeli nation there, be it Joshua, or before or after (Samuel).

The Hebrew "god" just ordered the Israelites to kill them, including women and children, and all their animals because their animals were "unclean".

It is no different than militant Muslims in the 21st century believing they are obeying their "god" by killing everyone who is not Muslim, except that Muslims will allow people the opportunity to convert to Islam and live as second-class citizens (slaves) to Muslims.

[noviapriani]

Here's whats true......your God told Moses that people who worship other gods should be put to death...aka murdered.  Awesome God.

Yes, though you purposely avoid the context in which that happens.But, in doing that, you have again admitted to the truth of Romans chapter 1, interestingly enough.

[noviapriani]

More accurately it's called, genocide.In the case of the Israelites murdering non-Israelites, some may prefer the term, "Ethnic Cleansing".

Actually, if you read the account, it was not for having a 'different faith'.

But, lets go with your error and again ask - what determines that something is murder?  Some folks think aborting babies is murder - not all.  Some folk think the government executing murderers or rapists is murder - other folkd do not.

What makes your interpretation of murder the correct one?

True.  If the nations the Israelites allegedly murdered had converted and worshiped the Hebrew "god", the Israelites would have murdered them anyway.


Is there a point to this? After all, it's just a fairy tale.

Again, not true, if one reads the history of the Israeli nation there, be it Joshua, or before or after (Samuel).

The Hebrew "god" just ordered the Israelites to kill them, including women and children, and all their animals because their animals were "unclean".

It is no different than militant Muslims in the 21st century believing they are obeying their "god" by killing everyone who is not Muslim, except that Muslims will allow people the opportunity to convert to Islam and live as second-class citizens (slaves) to Muslims.

Your objection makes no sense unless you are claiming that morals are absolutes.Which, deep inside, you do believe - the very thing Paul discusses in Romans chapter 1.

[sana8410]

More accurately it's called, genocide.In the case of the Israelites murdering non-Israelites, some may prefer the term, "Ethnic Cleansing".

Actually, if you read the account, it was not for having a 'different faith'.

But, lets go with your error and again ask - what determines that something is murder?  Some folks think aborting babies is murder - not all.  Some folk think the government executing murderers or rapists is murder - other folkd do not.

What makes your interpretation of murder the correct one?

True.  If the nations the Israelites allegedly murdered had converted and worshiped the Hebrew "god", the Israelites would have murdered them anyway.


Is there a point to this? After all, it's just a fairy tale.

Again, not true, if one reads the history of the Israeli nation there, be it Joshua, or before or after (Samuel).

The Hebrew "god" just ordered the Israelites to kill them, including women and children, and all their animals because their animals were "unclean".

It is no different than militant Muslims in the 21st century believing they are obeying their "god" by killing everyone who is not Muslim, except that Muslims will allow people the opportunity to convert to Islam and live as second-class citizens (slaves) to Muslims.

Your objection makes no sense unless you are claiming that morals are absolutes.Which, deep inside, you do believe - the very thing Paul discusses in Romans chapter 1.

Your objections make no sense because your objections are based upon your blind faith in superstitious beliefs and fairy tales, and we have long ago established the fact that you can't use one fairy tale to make another fairy tale real.
Remove your head from your ass, stop believing in fairy tale , and it makes perfect sense that you are simply attempting to rationalize and justify wholesale genocide.

You also have to consider the fact that the Exodus accounts are 100% pure fiction. The events, just like your Flood Myth and your childish Creation myths, are pure bullshit.  No culture or society would ever condone wholesale genocide, much less ever admit to participating in it.

[Rigon]

No culture or society would ever condone wholesale genocide, much less ever admit to participating in it.

[noviapriani]

What dance?  Unexpectedly, you yourself provided evidence of you belief in the existance of a Creator in trying to make your point.

Rather unexpectedly, I have to admit, but I am inclined to let go explaining the 'context' just for that little nugget.

[Rigon]

What dance?  Unexpectedly, you yourself provided evidence of you belief in the existance of a Creator in trying to make your point.

Rather unexpectedly, I have to admit, but I am inclined to let go explaining the 'context' just for that little nugget.

By saying "god-instructed" genocide you conclude I admit a belief in a creator?

[noviapriani]

What dance?  Unexpectedly, you yourself provided evidence of you belief in the existance of a Creator in trying to make your point.

Rather unexpectedly, I have to admit, but I am inclined to let go explaining the 'context' just for that little nugget.

By saying "god-instructed" genocide you conclude I admit a belief in a creator?

No that was not it; I guess you missed what I said in an earlier post.Ok, lets take some smaller steps on this.  What is your position on the use of the Death Penalty?

[Rigon]

What dance?  Unexpectedly, you yourself provided evidence of you belief in the existance of a Creator in trying to make your point.

Rather unexpectedly, I have to admit, but I am inclined to let go explaining the 'context' just for that little nugget.

By saying "god-instructed" genocide you conclude I admit a belief in a creator?

No that was not it; I guess you missed what I said in an earlier post.Ok, lets take some smaller steps on this.  What is your position on the use of the Death Penalty?

we are not talking about the death penalty.  This is exactly what I am talking about.  You would rather dance around the issue for months talking about other unrelated shit without ever making a  point.

Nonetheless we are not talking about a death penalty for a capital crime, we are talking about God's instructions to Moses that anyone who believes in a different god should be killed, murdered, terminated, put to death.  There is no context in which genocide is OK or akin to a death sentence for a heinous crime.  This is a death sentence for a belief in another god.  I know that in defense of your make-believe god you would like me to accept that this written instruction that allegedly occurred from God to Moses is merely a death sentence of its day for evil people and who am I to declare it right or wrong.  I will tell you (hopefully for the last fucking time) that I simply do not agree with this at all and none of your stupid fairy tale bullshit will convince me otherwise....ever.  The instructions in the bible in Deuteronomy that were conceived and written by man (since god is a fairy tale) are instructions for murder/genocide pure and simple.  It doesnt get any clearer than that.

[Rigon]

I also suggest you start a thread about the death penalty and/or abortion if you would like to discus whether or not that is murder etc., you seem to be fascinated with the irrelevant.

[noviapriani]

And, actually, we are talking about the Death Penalty here, according to the context.

Now, whether it was a just use of the DP is the question; but, no point even going there, if you think there is no valid use of the DP.

What then is your position on the DP?

[Rigon]

And, actually, we are talking about the Death Penalty here, according to the context.

Now, whether it was a just use of the DP is the question; but, no point even going there, if you think there is no valid use of the DP.

What then is your position on the DP?

No we are not talking about the death penalty.  If you would like to discuss it, I have suggested numerous times that you start another thread.  We are talking about a biblical instruction that allegedly arose from the Lord telling Moses that anyone who believed in other gods should be killed. If you would like to think of this as a death sentence that is fine, but it is not akin to capital punishment.

[Rigon]

Now, will you ever state your position and why?  Why do you think the context of the time made it OK for God to demand Moses to have others killed...if you even think that?  Why was this nothing more than a death penalty that was fair and just at the time?  Rather than dancing around for months and hundreds of posts thinking you are somehow cleverly leading me to see things your way (which aint gonna happen in ten thousand posts and ten million years) ...just say what the fuck it is you are thinking.

[noviapriani]

To be honest, I don't know your position on the DP, and while given your general political stance, the odds are you are against it, for some reason I though there were circumstances that you thought it was just to use.


Well, not sure why you refuse to answer, so let me then ask this:

Would you agree that in the past half century (or so?), there is a growing number of folk who see the death penalty as not only cruel and unusual punishment, but that its use constitutes murder by the state, regardless of what it is used for?

[sana8410]

What dance?  Unexpectedly, you yourself provided evidence of you belief in the existance of a Creator in trying to make your point.

Rather unexpectedly, I have to admit, but I am inclined to let go explaining the 'context' just for that little nugget.

By saying "god-instructed" genocide you conclude I admit a belief in a creator?

No that was not it; I guess you missed what I said in an earlier post.Ok, lets take some smaller steps on this.  What is your position on the use of the Death Penalty?

That would fall into the category of "dancing" around the issue.What does the death penalty have to do with the price of beans?  Are you suggesting the people the Israelite s murdered committed a crime and were sentenced to death by a jury of their peers?

[Daniel91]

Back to the original question
Does God judge the nations?
In my humble opinion God judge people, not nations, but there are exceptions in Bible.
If some country try to harm people or nation chosen by God (like Israel in the old testament) in order to protect his chosen people, God will destroy enemy nation.
It seems that old testament really was very brutal time but in the New testament situation is opposite.
We have just teaching, by Jesus, about love and forgiveness.
Personally, I much more like this part of Bible

[kittycatbtc]

Prove God first.

[Rigon]

To be honest, I don't know your position on the DP, and while given your general political stance, the odds are you are against it, for some reason I though there were circumstances that you thought it was just to use.


Well, not sure why you refuse to answer, so let me then ask this:

Would you agree that in the past half century (or so?), there is a growing number of folk who see the death penalty as not only cruel and unusual punishment, but that its use constitutes murder by the state, regardless of what it is used for?

I could care less if you think I am for or against the DP or how the DP is viewed and if it is outlawed or brought back to use more.  I really cannot explain to you just how much I could care less about this irrelevant topic you seem obsessed to introduce.  My only point in this  thread  is that killing people...women and children.... as God instructed Moses simply because they believed in another god........ is 1) murder and is 2) wrong in ANY CONTEXT and at ANY TIME PERIOD.  That is how I feel and all your feet stomping cant change it in order for you to rationalize "God is good" in that old Testament bullshit.

[noviapriani]

Not everyone agrees on what constitutes murder - what makes your interpretation the correct one, out of curiosity?

[sana8410]

Not everyone agrees on what constitutes murder - what makes your interpretation the correct one, out of curiosity?

You are the only one who is attempting to redefine murder to fit your warped agenda.Every civilized person who has not been brainwashed to believe fairy tales are real know what murder is.
The Exodus, et al account are the very definition of murder/genocide, but you are the only one who is attempting to re-write the dictionary.

[noviapriani]

Does everyone agree about the death penalty and abortion?

Some say that doing those are murder, others do not.  Please, knock off the silliness about me redefining anything as if this subject is so esoteric.

[Nik1ab]

Does everyone agree about the death penalty and abortion?

Some say that doing those are murder, others do not.  Please, knock off the silliness about me redefining anything as if this subject is so esoteric.

How can the state murdering people not be considered as murder?

[sana8410]

Does everyone agree about the death penalty and abortion?

Some say that doing those are murder, others do not.  Please, knock off the silliness about me redefining anything as if this subject is so esoteric.

No one is talking about the death penalty or abortion.I know that you will never admit that you are wrong, but that doesn't matter.  You are wrong.

[noviapriani]

Does everyone agree about the death penalty and abortion?

Some say that doing those are murder, others do not.  Please, knock off the silliness about me redefining anything as if this subject is so esoteric.

How can the state murdering people not be considered as murder?

Ok, how about this?

Are there folk who think Bush is a murderer regarding the Iraqi war?  Are there folk who disagree?Are there folk who think that Hiroshima and Nagasaki was murder, and those who think not?

[Nik1ab]

Does everyone agree about the death penalty and abortion?

Some say that doing those are murder, others do not.  Please, knock off the silliness about me redefining anything as if this subject is so esoteric.

How can the state murdering people not be considered as murder?

Ok, how about this?

Are there folk who think Bush is a murderer regarding the Iraqi war?  Are there folk who disagree?Are there folk who think that Hiroshima and Nagasaki was murder, and those who think not?

I like that quote of a french man. I can't remember his name unfortunately.
He said "When 1 million people are wrong, then those 1 million people are wrong."

[BitCoinNutJob]

If god is real he doesnt follow some socially constructed book.  He would likely be beyond good and evil, there are no judgements or punishments for anyone imo

[Rigon]

Does everyone agree about the death penalty and abortion?

Some say that doing those are murder, others do not.  Please, knock off the silliness about me redefining anything as if this subject is so esoteric.

How can the state murdering people not be considered as murder?

Ok, how about this?

Are there folk who think Bush is a murderer regarding the Iraqi war?  Are there folk who disagree?Are there folk who think that Hiroshima and Nagasaki was murder, and those who think not?

Agree or not, these examples are once again not remotely the same as killing women and children for the sole reason that they believe in other fairy tale gods.  Perhaps you ought to start a new thread to discuss whether (and when) war, judicial death penalties for crimes, and abortion constitute murder.   It might be an interesting topic. It just isnt germane to this one.

 In this instance the killing of women and children for their beliefs as instructed by God to Moses in the bible is clearly murder under ANY definition and in ANY context.

[sana8410]

Does everyone agree about the death penalty and abortion?

Some say that doing those are murder, others do not.  Please, knock off the silliness about me redefining anything as if this subject is so esoteric.

How can the state murdering people not be considered as murder?

Ok, how about this?

Are there folk who think Bush is a murderer regarding the Iraqi war?  Are there folk who disagree?Are there folk who think that Hiroshima and Nagasaki was murder, and those who think not?

"If your "god" commanded you to kill someone, would you kill them?"   Of course you never answered the question, but it does cause one to ponder.

The usual criteria for determining the definition of  murder  is understanding the difference between Right and Wrong.
You are on-record for not knowing the difference between Right and Wrong, Truth or Lies.

You have to draw a line somewhere, and basic understadning of Right and Wrong is a good place to draw the line.
You can't even man-up and define The Golden Rule!!!  That should be a clue.

[noviapriani]

Does everyone agree about the death penalty and abortion?

Some say that doing those are murder, others do not.  Please, knock off the silliness about me redefining anything as if this subject is so esoteric.

How can the state murdering people not be considered as murder?

Ok, how about this?

Are there folk who think Bush is a murderer regarding the Iraqi war?  Are there folk who disagree?Are there folk who think that Hiroshima and Nagasaki was murder, and those who think not?

"If your "god" commanded you to kill someone, would you kill them?"   Of course you never answered the question, but it does cause one to ponder.

The usual criteria for determining the definition of  murder  is understanding the difference between Right and Wrong.
You are on-record for not knowing the difference between Right and Wrong, Truth or Lies.

You have to draw a line somewhere, and basic understadning of Right and Wrong is a good place to draw the line.
You can't even man-up and define The Golden Rule!!!  That should be a clue.

And that is just it - not everyone agrees with what constitutes murder.  Your avoiding discussing these other examples just further underlines that.

You have yet to demonstrate why you feel this one example is absolute (even assuming your understanding is correct).


Let  me ask you - given the story of Noah's flood, where God directly brings judgement - do you feel that is murder?

[Rigon]

Item A:  It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.  People may have thought they were correct to do it at the time but their stupidity is irrelevant to the fact it was still murder.  I need not demonstrate this fact to any other human alive.  I think we all agree that killing someone for a harmless fairy tale belief they were likely born into is murder....but you.   Its like this...your beliefs are all wrong , but that is no good reason for me to justify killing you, right?  That would be murder, correct?  Its the same thing.

Item B:  Noah is a fairy tale, but if God did something like it such as breaking the Bosporus peninsula 8000 years ago and flooding the Med valley (which happened and could be the folk lure responsible for this fairy tale), then he murdered people ....and surely not all of them were bad.

[noviapriani]

Item A:  It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.  People may have thought they were correct to do it at the time but their stupidity is irrelevant to the fact it was still murder.  I need not demonstrate this fact to any other human alive.  I think we all agree that killing someone for a harmless fairy tale belief they were likely born into is murder....but you.   Its like this...your beliefs are all wrong , but that is no good reason for me to justify killing you, right?  That would be murder, correct?  Its the same thing.

Item B:  Noah is a fairy tale, but if God did something like it such as breaking the Bosporus peninsula 8000 years ago and flooding the Med valley (which happened and could be the folk lure responsible for this fairy tale), then he murdered people ....and surely not all of them were bad.

Noah is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale?

It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.

You are saying it has always been murder, even when folks thought they were correct to do so.  You are then saying that there is a moral principle that transcends the human race, that the human race is subject to?

[Rigon]

Item A:  It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.  People may have thought they were correct to do it at the time but their stupidity is irrelevant to the fact it was still murder.  I need not demonstrate this fact to any other human alive.  I think we all agree that killing someone for a harmless fairy tale belief they were likely born into is murder....but you.   Its like this...your beliefs are all wrong , but that is no good reason for me to justify killing you, right?  That would be murder, correct?  Its the same thing.

Item B:  Noah is a fairy tale, but if God did something like it such as breaking the Bosporus peninsula 8000 years ago and flooding the Med valley (which happened and could be the folk lure responsible for this fairy tale), then he murdered people ....and surely not all of them were bad.

Noah is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale?

It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.

You are saying it has always been murder, even when folks thought they were correct to do so.  You are then saying that there is a moral principle that transcends the human race, that the human race is subject to?

I am saying that putting someone to death for a harmless belief should certainly always be considered murder.

[noviapriani]

The foundations of law and order have collapsed. What can the righteous do?" Psalm 11:3

When the foundations of the country are destroyed, what's going to happen? The entire country is going to collapse and there will be an implosion. The enemy is within. When the moral fiber breaks down, the family breaks down. Once the family breaks down, we don't have a country anymore. We are at the point that is very much like when the Roman Empire was beginning to disintegrate. We are at the same point in history. I never dreamed this would happen in my lifetime, but we are there. Those who are younger than I will see the destruction and fall of this society.

Then, what will have to happen will be for a great one world government to try to salvage things as the moral fiber disintegrates. It's all preparing the way for the Lord's return.

"The nations have sunk down in the pit which they have made; In the net which they hid, their own foot has been caught. The Lord has made Himself known; He has executed judgment. In the work of his own hands the wicked is snared. . . . Even all the nations who forget God. . . . Let the nations know that they are but men." Psalm 9:15-20, NASB 

[zolace]

The foundations of law and order have collapsed. What can the righteous do?" Psalm 11:3

When the foundations of the country are destroyed, what's going to happen? The entire country is going to collapse and there will be an implosion. The enemy is within. When the moral fiber breaks down, the family breaks down. Once the family breaks down, we don't have a country anymore. We are at the point that is very much like when the Roman Empire was beginning to disintegrate. We are at the same point in history. I never dreamed this would happen in my lifetime, but we are there. Those who are younger than I will see the destruction and fall of this society.

Then, what will have to happen will be for a great one world government to try to salvage things as the moral fiber disintegrates. It's all preparing the way for the Lord's return.

"The nations have sunk down in the pit which they have made; In the net which they hid, their own foot has been caught. The Lord has made Himself known; He has executed judgment. In the work of his own hands the wicked is snared. . . . Even all the nations who forget God. . . . Let the nations know that they are but men." Psalm 9:15-20, NASB 

The title of your post asked does God judge the nations as if it were in the OT, and where your verses you point out are from. I assumed then other nations would be more in favor. I just don't see any NT evidence this is still the way. And your whole breakdown of family theory sounds like you have a particular type of family in mind, or that individuals can't love their country or have morals unless they are part of this particular family unit

[noviapriani]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

[noviapriani]

And there are folks who consider abortion murder, and others who consider the death penalty murder, and others who consider the bombing of Hiroshima murder, and others who feel Bush is a murderer.

I understand your sentiment - but, you do make it sound like it is more than just your own personal view on murder. 

[zolace]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

[noviapriani]

Item A:  It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.  People may have thought they were correct to do it at the time but their stupidity is irrelevant to the fact it was still murder.  I need not demonstrate this fact to any other human alive.  I think we all agree that killing someone for a harmless fairy tale belief they were likely born into is murder....but you.   Its like this...your beliefs are all wrong , but that is no good reason for me to justify killing you, right?  That would be murder, correct?  Its the same thing.

Item B:  Noah is a fairy tale, but if God did something like it such as breaking the Bosporus peninsula 8000 years ago and flooding the Med valley (which happened and could be the folk lure responsible for this fairy tale), then he murdered people ....and surely not all of them were bad.

Noah is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale?

It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.

You are saying it has always been murder, even when folks thought they were correct to do so.  You are then saying that there is a moral principle that transcends the human race, that the human race is subject to?

I am saying that putting someone to death for a harmless belief should certainly always be considered murder.

And  your objection to discussing Noah and the flood is that he is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale, since you did not object to discussing that?

[noviapriani]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

Well, Romans 1 does speak of God's judgment, yes?  I think you are saying that you don't see the judgement as nation specific - is that what you mean?


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse

[catlinhappy]

God will surely judge the nation because they think they have all they want but not knowing that God is just been patient.

[alwinlinzee]

Of course, He does thats why you have series of disease out breaks and terrorist attacks here and there.

[Rigon]

Item A:  It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.  People may have thought they were correct to do it at the time but their stupidity is irrelevant to the fact it was still murder.  I need not demonstrate this fact to any other human alive.  I think we all agree that killing someone for a harmless fairy tale belief they were likely born into is murder....but you.   Its like this...your beliefs are all wrong , but that is no good reason for me to justify killing you, right?  That would be murder, correct?  Its the same thing.

Item B:  Noah is a fairy tale, but if God did something like it such as breaking the Bosporus peninsula 8000 years ago and flooding the Med valley (which happened and could be the folk lure responsible for this fairy tale), then he murdered people ....and surely not all of them were bad.

Noah is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale?

It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.

You are saying it has always been murder, even when folks thought they were correct to do so.  You are then saying that there is a moral principle that transcends the human race, that the human race is subject to?

I am saying that putting someone to death for a harmless belief should certainly always be considered murder.

And  your objection to discussing Noah and the flood is that he is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale, since you did not object to discussing that?

How hard is it for you to understand that I feel the bible is a book of folk lure..with perhaps some vague truths and other long forgotten lure and some just plain fairy tales.  I really dont give a shit about parsing which is which in the entire book. It is most likely that none of it is pure historical truth.  We cant even agree on how things happened last year when we have it on video, so the odds of a 2000 year old book translated in dozens of languages being "truth" is pretty much zero.

[umair127]

Well, trying to follow this but it seems to be going in circles... anyway if you are trying to discuss something from God or about God and you are using today's dictionary definitions, you are automatically in error...

G1484

ἔθνoς

ethnos

eth'-nos

Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

The nation is just a group of people, today's definition is the border that encompasses a nation, God actually doesn't see it that way, he sees it as groups of people, basically families.

You guys touched on abortion for a moment... search the Scriptures and find out what happened to those nations who killed their children... as a practice or a common thing. (not pleasant)

and just because you think you are enlightened, just realize that those people also thought they were enlightened.

And as far as murder goes, the Scriptures also are pretty explicit on what constitutes murder and what does not...

now the great what-if...

if there is a God and you stand in judgment, will you have the correct answers?

Now if you run this backwards, the Scriptures do contain the correct answers...

and how would they do that unless there was a reason.

For a judging...

and if there is a judging, there is a judge.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works

well the Bible actually contains numerous books and you will be judged by what is written in those books...

and catch the word dead... the dead are judged, not the living.
Just like Jesus told the man who said first let me go bury my father and Jesus told him let the dead bury the dead...
so even though you may be breathing, God may consider you already dead.

And even though I do find it fascinating, when you understand all of the prophecies or at least the vast majority of them, who is who and what will be happening and where it will be happening and who is involved and who is not involved... a few more things fall into place and we may be finding out relatively soon whether or not all of this is true.

And sadly there are no mulligans...

and also, I really no longer care... if someone wants to learn, I will teach them all day long, if not, it's not worth my time to argue, so they are on their own and I will not look back.

[BADecker]

Of course he does. He instructs good christians to destry nations that worship other gods in Deuteronomy.  Go kill the fuckers and take all their shit if they worship anyone else. Aint the god that man fabricated great?

God's whole idea is to save people for Heaven and eternal life. God has given the nations time to change and to align themselves with Him so that they will be saved. Rather than follow what He attempts to discipline them into, they reject Him. It is THEN that He instructs believers to destroy them, only after the nations will not change.

There are two major benefits to the destroyed nations for their destruction. The first is that, why should they have children that they will train in their ways, so that their children are destroyed as well, and then their children's children?

The second is, why should God let them keep on defying Him. Such defiance will bring punishment in the afterlife. So, if a person in a destroyed nation has built up personal defiance of God for 25 years rather than for 50 years, God will only have 25 years of defiance to punish him for in the afterlife, rather than 50 years. So, God is really doing them a favor by destroying them.

[BADecker]

If god was real, I guess he/she/it would judge the nations that don't adhere to his/her/its respective religion. So I guess the Christian god judges the islamic countries, and vice versa, for example. I thin it's a bad system, because it's based on hate and intolerance.

God judges the nations according to His conditions. Why? He created it all. It is His right. He is the only One Who can do it justly because He is the only One Who knows what everything is all about - 42. Be afraid. God is the only One Who understands what it is all about. Seek Him and His forgiveness. You will be fully rewarded because He is a God of love.

[BADecker]

All questions about "Judgement" are odd, if your religions god is so benevolent why would he feel the need to judge? everyone one has at least one redeeming characteristic. and to pass judgement on an entire nation because of the ideologies and thoughts of their leaders is a bit harsh especially if these people have been indoctrinated/brainwashed (Eg North Korea, Nazi Germany)

Judgment by God is based on reality.

The entire universe was set up as a perpetual motion machine, based on certain universal laws. The basic, number one universal law is, "Love God above all things." The second is, "Love your neighbor as yourself." Only God understands how it works clearly.

Adam and Eve were the first to break these two basic laws. All others follow in their footsteps. The only One who kept these laws was Jesus. He could do so because He was sent by God and with His power. This is also the reason that Jesus could restore the perpetualness of the universe long enough to find out which people are on God's side and which are against God.

People should be destroyed immediately following some "sin" that they do, the first time that they break one of the two universal, basic laws above. They are not destroyed because God has forced love and mercy into the universe through Jesus.

When God waits patiently for a nation to turn to Him, is He wrong in withdrawing His support from them when, after a long time, it becomes evident that they will not accept His support and do what is right? He owns it all! His judgment is done in righteousness and truth, and in long suffering and patience. Those who carry out the destruction of ungodly nations, do so at the command and behest of a righteous God.

[noviapriani]

Item A:  It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.  People may have thought they were correct to do it at the time but their stupidity is irrelevant to the fact it was still murder.  I need not demonstrate this fact to any other human alive.  I think we all agree that killing someone for a harmless fairy tale belief they were likely born into is murder....but you.   Its like this...your beliefs are all wrong , but that is no good reason for me to justify killing you, right?  That would be murder, correct?  Its the same thing.

Item B:  Noah is a fairy tale, but if God did something like it such as breaking the Bosporus peninsula 8000 years ago and flooding the Med valley (which happened and could be the folk lure responsible for this fairy tale), then he murdered people ....and surely not all of them were bad.

Noah is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale?

It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.

You are saying it has always been murder, even when folks thought they were correct to do so.  You are then saying that there is a moral principle that transcends the human race, that the human race is subject to?

I am saying that putting someone to death for a harmless belief should certainly always be considered murder.

And  your objection to discussing Noah and the flood is that he is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale, since you did not object to discussing that?

How hard is it for you to understand that I feel the bible is a book of folk lure..with perhaps some vague truths and other long forgotten lure and some just plain fairy tales.  I really dont give a shit about parsing which is which in the entire book. It is most likely that none of it is pure historical truth.  We cant even agree on how things happened last year when we have it on video, so the odds of a 2000 year old book translated in dozens of languages being "truth" is pretty much zero.

So, not answering the question regarding what God did during the flood in Noah's time because it is a 'fable' is just a dodge.

Thought so.

[zolace]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

Well, Romans 1 does speak of God's judgment, yes?  I think you are saying that you don't see the judgement as nation specific - is that what you mean?


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse

Yes if you look at how things worked in the OT and the transition to the NT. To your point if a nation slides into depravity to where selfishness personal or otherwise rules, if we see a senerio such as a max thunderdome movie the nation will suffer. However i don't see any "nation" that is any more or less subject to that senerio. We have the final judgement, we also have the kind of judgement that's been going on caused by sin which is broadly dispersed thoughout the world. The final days (whenever that may be) will not involve a nation but mankind in general. Nations are used as well as people but the final plan belongs to God not us 

[BADecker]

Hmm.   Seeing there were no Christians before the book of Acts, pretty neat trick, eh?Might check again - who is God giving instructions to in that book?

Well, actually, in the Garden of Eden, after Adam and Eve sinned, and God was walking in the Garden in the cool of the day, guess what form God was walking in, since God is a Spirit? He was walking in the form of a pre-Incarnate Jesus. Whenever you see the term "the Angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament, you are looking at Jesus, Who is God in human form, even though He was not yet born to do His work on the cross.

[Rigon]

Item A:  It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.  People may have thought they were correct to do it at the time but their stupidity is irrelevant to the fact it was still murder.  I need not demonstrate this fact to any other human alive.  I think we all agree that killing someone for a harmless fairy tale belief they were likely born into is murder....but you.   Its like this...your beliefs are all wrong , but that is no good reason for me to justify killing you, right?  That would be murder, correct?  Its the same thing.

Item B:  Noah is a fairy tale, but if God did something like it such as breaking the Bosporus peninsula 8000 years ago and flooding the Med valley (which happened and could be the folk lure responsible for this fairy tale), then he murdered people ....and surely not all of them were bad.

Noah is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale?

It has always been murder in any context to put someone to death for a belief.

You are saying it has always been murder, even when folks thought they were correct to do so.  You are then saying that there is a moral principle that transcends the human race, that the human race is subject to?

I am saying that putting someone to death for a harmless belief should certainly always be considered murder.

And  your objection to discussing Noah and the flood is that he is a fairy tale you say - are you saying that what Israel did when it destroyed the nations after crossing the Jordon is not a fairy tale, since you did not object to discussing that?

How hard is it for you to understand that I feel the bible is a book of folk lure..with perhaps some vague truths and other long forgotten lure and some just plain fairy tales.  I really dont give a shit about parsing which is which in the entire book. It is most likely that none of it is pure historical truth.  We cant even agree on how things happened last year when we have it on video, so the odds of a 2000 year old book translated in dozens of languages being "truth" is pretty much zero.

So, not answering the question regarding what God did during the flood in Noah's time because it is a 'fable' is just a dodge.

Thought so.

I am saying that if that shit in the bible actually were true...then your god is a murderer.  Can you fit that simple sentence into your  brain?   Noahs flood, the Israelites, anything you can come up with......the stories in the bible are not reality.  But that aside....if the bible stories were true...then the christian god was clearly a big-time murderer in the OT days.

[Slark]

Everytime I see 'religious' topic here on forum, or wherever in general there is fighting. Always. How can you people can't understand that you know NOTHING of GOD or greater power. Imagine ants talking about their gods it is funny for you? That is what we all are. We can only repeat some words people before us write or say without real proofs. Just lieve good life and it would be enough for you or your God.

I think this is part of how religions work. Religions are concepts that people adopt. They are convinced that the teachings of their respective religion are real. Yet, they can't prove them. They'll never be able to! And yet they feel the urge to convince other people that their religion is the 'right' one. It's a vicious circle that can't be broken, I guess...

It is saddening really. People waste time arguing over uncertain things when they can put their efforts in some more constructive way. We can make this world better! For everyone here and now. Not after our death.

[BADecker]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=734119.msg8315130#msg8315130.

[zolace]

Well, trying to follow this but it seems to be going in circles... anyway if you are trying to discuss something from God or about God and you are using today's dictionary definitions, you are automatically in error...

G1484

ἔθνoς

ethnos

eth'-nos

Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

The nation is just a group of people, today's definition is the border that encompasses a nation, God actually doesn't see it that way, he sees it as groups of people, basically families.

You guys touched on abortion for a moment... search the Scriptures and find out what happened to those nations who killed their children... as a practice or a common thing. (not pleasant)

and just because you think you are enlightened, just realize that those people also thought they were enlightened.

And as far as murder goes, the Scriptures also are pretty explicit on what constitutes murder and what does not...

now the great what-if...

if there is a God and you stand in judgment, will you have the correct answers?

Now if you run this backwards, the Scriptures do contain the correct answers...

and how would they do that unless there was a reason.

For a judging...

and if there is a judging, there is a judge.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works

well the Bible actually contains numerous books and you will be judged by what is written in those books...

and catch the word dead... the dead are judged, not the living.
Just like Jesus told the man who said first let me go bury my father and Jesus told him let the dead bury the dead...
so even though you may be breathing, God may consider you already dead.

And even though I do find it fascinating, when you understand all of the prophecies or at least the vast majority of them, who is who and what will be happening and where it will be happening and who is involved and who is not involved... a few more things fall into place and we may be finding out relatively soon whether or not all of this is true.

And sadly there are no mulligans...

and also, I really no longer care... if someone wants to learn, I will teach them all day long, if not, it's not worth my time to argue, so they are on their own and I will not look back.

anyone who wants to study scriptures shouldn't follow a man, church, or organization exclusively in my opinion except as a basic outline to compare what others have also concluded over long periods of time. It isn't an easy thing but any knowledge has to come a personal quest

[BADecker]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

Answer 1.  Who gives a shit and what does it matter?  You believe your god instructed people to murder anyone who didnt believe in him.  Thats what is says in black and white in Deuteronomy.  Great god huh? 

Answer 2.  A make believe man cant actually give instructions.

See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=734119.msg8315130#msg8315130.

[Rigon]

It really doesnt matter if they are true or not....the only thing I am commenting on is that either a) if god exists and the bible is correct, then he is a murderer, or b) if god doesnt exist and the stories in the bible are manmade.....then the fictional God character is a murderer in the OT.

[BADecker]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

But if you are given orders to destroy and kill surely that's in Vengeance? Making all gods Vengeful gods, let alone contradicting a load of the 613 commandments...
And now the counterpoint to theism, "If the big bang came from nowhere, where did god come from to create the universe if no universe existed before him?"

God always existed. What this means is, the place where God lives is so extremely different from this universe that there is no way to compare anything in this universe with God's Heavenly Home. Even the notion eternity is something of this universe. God doesn't need eternity to exist. Eternity is simply a tool that He uses. However, we are so weak that eternity is something great for us, just like life.

Regarding God's vengeful destruction he does of the nations, see: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=734119.msg8315130#msg8315130.

[BADecker]

I think it depends on the god in question (or the supposedly god in question). If they are nice gods they'll most likely only ask their followers to adhere to certain rules or principles. I don't think they'd judge states or nations in general, but rather individual people, according to the things they've done. But then again, there may be 'evil' gods who demand to be the only god.

Many people think there is more than One God. The reason is that we have so little understanding about the complexity and operations of the universe. Our universe is so extremely complex, that even if there were many gods putting it in place in a form of creation, they would have to act as ONE to avoid inconsistencies that would have kept it from being brought into existence. Hence, ONE GOD.

[BADecker]

None of us actually believes that all killing of a human being is murder.  True?  So, what makes this murder?

One dark moonlit night a cowboy was sleeping in a hotel room, a luxury he wasn't often able to afford. In the middle of the night, something awakened him. In the dim moonlight streaming in through the window, he saw a hand rising up at the foot of his bed. Carefully he reached over and picked up his revolver, and shot the hand. He still limps, to this day.

We often initially believe things that are not the truth.

[enhu]

I swear to God, he don't exist!  
Christians and Catholics are very much different. but they do celebrate last supper on the first Friday of the month at 8:30AM. -- yep last supper.

[BADecker]

Because taking another humans life is murder...
just because someone is evil does not mean they have to be killed, every civilized country recognizes this and as such have these things called Jails.

So, is killing someone in self defense or defense of your family, when he is going to murder you or your family member, really murder? Just be sure that his intent is to murder.

[BADecker]

God (man who pretended to be god) was writing that all who believe in other gods should be put to death...and he was speaking to (writing for) anyone who believed the bible......which we now call christians.

If you believe God actually wrote or inspired this , then you believe your god wants us to kill anyone who doesnt believe in him.   Great and loving/forgiving god that he is.

I agree that God gave instructions to destroy some nations.  Who did he give them to?  Simple question.

 By the way, while it is evil to worship anyone other than our Creator, that is not why he gave the instructions to destroy those select nations - else other nations would have been on the list.

But if you are given orders to destroy and kill surely that's in Vengeance? Making all gods Vengeful gods, let alone contradicting a load of the 613 commandments...
And now the counterpoint to theism, "If the big bang came from nowhere, where did god come from to create the universe if no universe existed before him?"

But, lets see how far we go - taking the position (for arguement sake) that it is indeed the Creator giving the instructions to eliminate these nations (nations, mind you, involved in great evil according to the text), how is it murder?

Deuteronomy was attributed to Moses according to the bible.  Jesus himself says Moses wrote it and that people should believe the words.

 "For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me (See Deut. 18:15-18). But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:46-47).

So jesus is saying that Moses is right in Deuteronomy...and jesus is lord....no???

Yes, Jesus is right about Moses.  And yes, Moses words are from God.   And therefore.....?

Of course, Moses murdered that Egyptian before he was called to lead the Israelites out of Egypt.

It has to do with the need and the attitude of the heart. Murder isn't right, but neither is idly sitting by and letting someone murder you.

[BADecker]

Have you ever thought that the bible could just be a big collection of fables?
Y'know, stories with a moral message behind them? i mean it makes sence doesnt it, they follow so many tropes of fairy tales "There is a big bad who is watching you so be good".
actually its kinda like Father Christmas/Santa/Your regional variant in a way "Be good or you wont get presents" > "Be good or you go to hell"

The few people who are Bible readers and listeners on a regular basis, and think like this, have forgotten that the whole purpose of the Bible is so that people will be informed about the salvation that God offers through Jesus. Everything that happens in life and in this universe will be destroyed someday, and someday soon. When this universe is finally destroyed, it will never be remembered or brought to mind in the New Universe that is coming from God. That is why Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last. There is no middle. Everything is Jesus, the Christ. All those who are found in Him will be with Him forever, and He is in God.

[BADecker]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

There is a difference between murder and vengeance, self-defense, extermination, and simply following God's orders. What's interesting is that God doesn't order anything in today's world that is not written in the Bible.

[BADecker]

Everytime I see 'religious' topic here on forum, or wherever in general there is fighting. Always. How can you people can't understand that you know NOTHING of GOD or greater power. Imagine ants talking about their gods it is funny for you? That is what we all are. We can only repeat some words people before us write or say without real proofs. Just lieve good life and it would be enough for you or your God.

This is a good post. The only answer is that understanding comes to people who fill themselves on the Word of God, the Bible.

[BADecker]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

Its the "putting people to death" part that makes it murder. Killing someone because they worship another god is murder no matter how much an idiot like yourself tries to rationalize it.  Call it murder, a "death penalty", punishment...whatever  you want to call it.  Your god commands you to put people to death who simply worship another god.   great guy isn’t he???

Again, the answer to this is in: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=734119.msg8315130#msg8315130.

Murder is the killing of someone for purposes that are not righteous. The whole Bible gives us a picture of what is righteous and what is not.

[BADecker]

god wants to kill the other gods like the christian god wants to kill muslim god. god wars.

There is only One God. The Muslim god is either a very bad picture of the One God, or it is not the One God at all. The Muslim god is, among other things, a god of good works salvation. The Christian (and Jewish) God is a God of the gift of salvation, because NOBODY can live righteously enough to keep himself/herself alive.

Too bad about the Jews that they just won't accept that the Messiah, the Christ, came in the form of Jesus of the New Testament. They are so missing it.

[BADecker]

How is it murder you ask?

Deuteronomy 13:
 The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


Let me ask you , if you stoned someone to death for worshing someone other than your god tomorrow.....would anyone consider that murder you think???

Still does not answer how it is murder, destroying the nations, nor then giving a different example of when to apply the death penalty within the nation of Israel.


So, what makes either example murder?  You still have not answered that.

Its the "putting people to death" part that makes it murder. Killing someone because they worship another god is murder no matter how much an idiot like yourself tries to rationalize it.  Call it murder, a "death penalty", punishment...whatever  you want to call it.  Your god commands you to put people to death who simply worship another god.   great guy isn’t he???

Still not anwering the question - unless you are saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder

[noviapriani]

A person cannot get any more illogical than that.

If this is indeed an act of the Creator, and since the Creator is the source of all Goodness - it cannot be evil.

We cannot be more righteous than our Creator.  So, if anything, the problem is with us.

Nothing more arrogant than us judging our Creator.  But, we all do it.  Part of our fallen nature. 

[noviapriani]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

Well, Romans 1 does speak of God's judgment, yes?  I think you are saying that you don't see the judgement as nation specific - is that what you mean?


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse

Yes if you look at how things worked in the OT and the transition to the NT. To your point if a nation slides into depravity to where selfishness personal or otherwise rules, if we see a senerio such as a max thunderdome movie the nation will suffer. However i don't see any "nation" that is any more or less subject to that senerio. We have the final judgement, we also have the kind of judgement that's been going on caused by sin which is broadly dispersed thoughout the world. The final days (whenever that may be) will not involve a nation but mankind in general. Nations are used as well as people but the final plan belongs to God not us 

Romans 1 is not a transition.  Paul is stating a principle.   This is what happens when folks reject the knowledge of their Creator, true?

[Rigon]

A person cannot get any more illogical than that.

If this is indeed an act of the Creator, and since the Creator is the source of all Goodness - it cannot be evil.

We cannot be more righteous than our Creator.  So, if anything, the problem is with us.

Nothing more arrogant than us judging our Creator.  But, we all do it.  Part of our fallen nature. 

Thats all fine and well but tell that to the guy who commanded Moses to tell others to kill men, women and children who happened to be born in a place where they worship other gods.   Your brainwashing tells you god is good, so you rationalize the shit out of the old testament.  I am not brainwashed and can see the OT as the fire and brimstone murdering angry god that is clearly written.

[BADecker]

For a God to judge, there need to exist a God. Usually - when making a claim, you have to prove that is is true. Many religions state that their religion is the only 'right' one.

When you compare the dictionary definition of God to the knowledge that we have around us, even science tells us that we are just scratching the surface of the complexity of the universe. Yet, the universe acts like a machine. And machines have makers. So, since the machinery of the universe is way more complicated than we are, the universe at least is God. Personally, I undrstand that God is outside the Universe - Something completely different.

Think about it.

... it's possible that there exist several Gods...

The universe is too complex for more than one God. If there were more than one, they would have had to act entirely as one to make the universe work. Otherwise their individual thinking would have contradicted each other in some areas so that the universe would never have come into existence. One God !!!

What is a nation? Let's for the sake of simplicity define it as all the people living within some artificial borders drawn up on a map. Some of those people will be really bad, some of them will be really good, and there will be a lot of them not being particular good, or particular bad, just normal average people who care mostly about themselves and their families.

How do you know a nation exists? Big mouthed politicians have described the nations of the world. Yet the borders that they define are not the borders that the people living on the land always accept.

For example, Thrace doesn't exist. But if you look up the people of eastern Greece and southwestern Romania, you will find that the people still identify themselves with the nation of Thrace, which has been long gone formally.

There's no such people as 'Gods people'. That's utter nonsense. There might be groups that have decided that they really are 'Gods people' to make them appear better than everyone else. In reality they're not.

Actually, God's people are spread around the world. It includes all the people who believe in the Salvation of Jesus, whether or not they have a formal country. Consider the book of Daniel in the Old Testament. Daniel 2:44 (NIV 1984):

In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

Join the kingdom that will never be destroyed. Fill yourself on the Bible so that it becomes easier.

Point blank, people need to stop being idiots, and look at life for what it is, and not point to any fairytale figure in the sky that's the answer to everything, and certainly not be as stupid as to believe that a religious book is somehow special, and that everything in that book is true.

You are so right about people needing to stop being idiots. Take a look at my posts here in this topic, and see that people who are not willing to believe in God in the proper way are the stupid ones.

To make any kind of rational and logical arguments, you need to lose the religious fanaticism and educate yourself.

In my opinion, there's no omnipotent God, and your life will mainly be governed by your own will, and randomly there can happen unexpected positive or bad things.

You are a thinker. Stop wasting your thinking ability on such silly thinking. Rather, find out Who God is so that you can be saved. He reveals Himself in the Bible.

[noviapriani]

A person cannot get any more illogical than that.

If this is indeed an act of the Creator, and since the Creator is the source of all Goodness - it cannot be evil.

We cannot be more righteous than our Creator.  So, if anything, the problem is with us.

Nothing more arrogant than us judging our Creator.  But, we all do it.  Part of our fallen nature. 

Thats all fine and well but tell that to the guy who commanded Moses to tell others to kill men, women and children who happened to be born in a place where they worship other gods.   Your brainwashing tells you god is good, so you rationalize the shit out of the old testament.  I am not brainwashed and can see the OT as the fire and brimstone murdering angry god that is clearly written.

it is one thing if you were simply disagreeing - but, your thinking is twisted, given how illogical your answer was.

If the Bible is true, the problem is us.  Had you said that therefore because you cannot accept the implications of the Bible being true, it is then false, you at least would not have been illogical, right or wrong as you then may be.

But, you are a typical example of Romans chapter 1.


Note that you refused to consider context, and you also refused to have your position looked at closely also. 

[Rigon]

A person cannot get any more illogical than that.

If this is indeed an act of the Creator, and since the Creator is the source of all Goodness - it cannot be evil.

We cannot be more righteous than our Creator.  So, if anything, the problem is with us.

Nothing more arrogant than us judging our Creator.  But, we all do it.  Part of our fallen nature. 

Thats all fine and well but tell that to the guy who commanded Moses to tell others to kill men, women and children who happened to be born in a place where they worship other gods.   Your brainwashing tells you god is good, so you rationalize the shit out of the old testament.  I am not brainwashed and can see the OT as the fire and brimstone murdering angry god that is clearly written.

it is one thing if you were simply disagreeing - but, your thinking is twisted, given how illogical your answer was.

If the Bible is true, the problem is us.  Had you said that therefore because you cannot accept the implications of the Bible being true, it is then false, you at least would not have been illogical, right or wrong as you then may be.

But, you are a typical example of Romans chapter 1.


Note that you refused to consider context, and you also refused to have your position looked at closely also. 

My logic is fully intact. When you abandon logic to put your faith in the "truth" of a fairy tale, then logic is cast out the door.  If the bible is true....god ordered innocent women and children to be put to death.  If the bible is not true.christians just think he ordered women and children be put to death.....both bad options.

[Rigon]

I fully considered context........ and rejected it.  Killing a child because their parents happen to believe in another god is murder in every context imaginable.

Recall that I addressed content directly...I said THERE IS NO FUCKING CONTEXT WHATSOEVER that EVER...as in ....EVER...make the killing of a person for their belief acceptable.  It is murder.  It will always be murder. Not everything is absolute...but this is.  You can bend over backwards looking for context that makes it ok....but it doesnt exist.

[BADecker]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

The evil of believing in the Buddha isn't in the fact of the good living that they proclaim. It is in the fact that they think that anybody can ever be good enough to live forever one way or another.

Eternal life isn't something mystical. Rather, it is something ultra-scientific. It is logical. For example, if you could take all the pollution out of our lives, and add only wholesome foods, destroy the inherent degradations in our cells, and think only pure thoughts, we could live for a long time - maybe hundreds of years.

The problem is, we don't know what it is like to do this. Buddhism goes in that direction somewhat. The problem with Buddhism is that it doesn't, can't, go far enough, just like Hinduism.

While Christianity doesn't go as far as Buddhism and Hinduism in the actual living, practical operations, Christianity goes all the way in preparing people for eternal life.

God is ultimately going to destroy this universe because of the evil that has come about in it; God can't stand even the tiniest bit of evil. He is offering us a method in faith in Jesus to gain eternal life in the New Universe He is creating... a Universe that will have no evil in it, no flaws, no capability for potential mistakes, yet freedom, love, and goodness for all who live therein.

You are free to make your choice. God might entice you, He might call to you, He'll slap you around a little, all so that you wake up and join with Him. He is the only way to eternal life. He is doing it for your own good. No matter what you think, history makes it obvious that everyone dies in this life. At least give yourself a chance. Turn to God.

[noviapriani]

If the Bible is true, then they were not innocent.

In fact, none of us according to the Bible.    According to the Bible, you and I are responsible for the crucifying of the Son of God.

[BADecker]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

I suppose if one lived in your world, where reading comprehesion and integrity is optional.

By the way, still waiting for you answer here:

Are you saying that there is no criteria where one human can put another to death and it is not murder?

If there is criteria for when a person can take the life of another and it not be murder - then what is that criteria based on?

I dont really care about your irrelevent question about other instances where killing may or may not be murder.  We are talking about one specific situation....

The one specific situation we are discussigin is where a person has a different faith and is put to death, killed, murdered, terminated, etc. for simply having that different faith.   You can call it what you like but that is murder.

Look at it this way. If there were a bunch of people who were totally against putting anyone to death for anything, they would all die because those that were in favor of killing people would kill them all off. So, if they wanted to live, they would have to adopt killing some people under some circumstances, namely, those murderers who were killing them off.

[BADecker]

I am not trolling....and i asked myself those questions many times....but i choose to believe my religion....and as long as i don't harm others with my believe i don't see what is wrong with it.I don't judge you for saving the life of some animals and kill the others, i do the same,and probably makes me good and bad in the same time.I started this topic to see peoples opinion and to find answers to my questions.

I respect that people have religious views, although I do not share those views personally.

I never stated being religious is wrong, as in fact most religious people are good people, however it's the fanaticism I'm against, and killing in the name of a religion is wrong. I also think it's wrong when a religion governs the life or a person to such an extent that the person lives a poorer life (fear of damnation if doing anything wrong).

All people have religion. Those who kill others have a very strange religion. Often they believe that it is entirely wrong to murder. Yet they do it anyway, knowing it is wrong. What a strange religion!

[Rigon]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

The evil of believing in the Buddha isn't in the fact of the good living that they proclaim. It is in the fact that they think that anybody can ever be good enough to live forever one way or another.

Eternal life isn't something mystical. Rather, it is something ultra-scientific. It is logical. For example, if you could take all the pollution out of our lives, and add only wholesome foods, destroy the inherent degradations in our cells, and think only pure thoughts, we could live for a long time - maybe hundreds of years.

The problem is, we don't know what it is like to do this. Buddhism goes in that direction somewhat. The problem with Buddhism is that it doesn't, can't, go far enough, just like Hinduism.

While Christianity doesn't go as far as Buddhism and Hinduism in the actual living, practical operations, Christianity goes all the way in preparing people for eternal life.

God is ultimately going to destroy this universe because of the evil that has come about in it; God can't stand even the tiniest bit of evil. He is offering us a method in faith in Jesus to gain eternal life in the New Universe He is creating... a Universe that will have no evil in it, no flaws, no capability for potential mistakes, yet freedom, love, and goodness for all who live therein.

You are free to make your choice. God might entice you, He might call to you, He slap you around a little, all so that you wake up and join with Him. He is the only way to eternal life. He is doing it for your own good. No matter what you think, history makes it obvious that everyone dies in this life. At least giver yourself a chance. Turn to God.

why dont you tell us the context in which an instruction to kill women and children for a belief in another god is OK?    Can you do that or will you do the normal thing and allude to some hidden context in some scripture whereby we are supposed to use our ESP to figure out exactly what you might be referring to?  I really dont need a response like...."you clearly ignored the context in Chapter/verse" orthe above ":note that you refuse to consider context".  Ive heard you say shit like that now for days without actually ever explaining the context that might make murdering people OK.   Tell us the context where killing women and children for a belief is OK and dont simply allude to it.  When is it OK for me to put my neighbor to death for believing in another god?  Why was it OK for people to do it back then?

If context matters so much, why have you not yet shared the context that can make killing others for their beliefs acceptable?  This seems to be the thrust of your argument...so fucking make it already!!!  I anxiously await a detailed description of the exact context that makes it OK to kill people for their beliefs.

[BADecker]

The specific situation we are discussigin is where a person has a different faith and is put to death, killed, murdered, terminated, etc. for simply having that different faith (as god commanded Moses apparantly). You can call it what you like but that is murder.

I'm flabbergasted that in this time and age, some people are killing other people because they believe in a different fantasy-person than themselves. When I read such news, I feel that I'm looking into the dark ages of the history of some very primitive planet.

There is so much to be said about this. I do think lack of education has a very strong part of this. I find it hard to believe that a university educated person would still hold beliefs that a certain religion is superior to others, and thus the others needs to be killed. But on the other hand, I might be wrong, and some of those university educated people are even more dangerous as they will use their knowledge to manipulate others to follow their agenda.

People are people, no matter their makeup, and most people just want to live in peace.

The bankers have a religion of gaining money. So they not only have caused almost all the wars in the world, but they also have incited many religious people to slaughter people of other religions. Everything is a religion. For bankers, it is the religion of money, and to gain/attains all the wealth they can. This is what Bitcoin is all about. To stop the bankers, and start a worldwide religion of Bitcoin.

[sana8410]

Why is everyone dancing around the core issue....?

The Bible is not historically accurate.  In other words, for the sake of discussion, The Bible is a lie.   THe events in the Bible never happened.  It is a work of fiction.

[BADecker]

God does not give a shit about nations or religion for that matter. Nations and religion are man made to separate humanity, and to incite war against each other.

Humans are weird creatures.

God cares about all living things on the whole planet. But people wouldn't be people if they didn't have free will. And if they use their free will to harm others, how can God stop it and still let them have free will?

Things will be different in the New Heaven and earth. The structure will be different, so that there can be free will, and yet nobody willing to harm another.

[noviapriani]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

The evil of believing in the Buddha isn't in the fact of the good living that they proclaim. It is in the fact that they think that anybody can ever be good enough to live forever one way or another.

Eternal life isn't something mystical. Rather, it is something ultra-scientific. It is logical. For example, if you could take all the pollution out of our lives, and add only wholesome foods, destroy the inherent degradations in our cells, and think only pure thoughts, we could live for a long time - maybe hundreds of years.

The problem is, we don't know what it is like to do this. Buddhism goes in that direction somewhat. The problem with Buddhism is that it doesn't, can't, go far enough, just like Hinduism.

While Christianity doesn't go as far as Buddhism and Hinduism in the actual living, practical operations, Christianity goes all the way in preparing people for eternal life.

God is ultimately going to destroy this universe because of the evil that has come about in it; God can't stand even the tiniest bit of evil. He is offering us a method in faith in Jesus to gain eternal life in the New Universe He is creating... a Universe that will have no evil in it, no flaws, no capability for potential mistakes, yet freedom, love, and goodness for all who live therein.

You are free to make your choice. God might entice you, He might call to you, He slap you around a little, all so that you wake up and join with Him. He is the only way to eternal life. He is doing it for your own good. No matter what you think, history makes it obvious that everyone dies in this life. At least giver yourself a chance. Turn to God.

why dont you tell us the context in which an instruction to kill women and children for a belief in another god is OK?    Can you do that or will you do the normal thing and allude to some hidden context in some scripture whereby we are supposed to use our ESP to figure out exactly what you might be referring to?  I really dont need a response like...."you clearly ignored the context in Chapter/verse" orthe above ":note that you refuse to consider context".  Ive heard you say shit like that now for days without actually ever explaining the context that might make murdering people OK.   Tell us the context where killing women and children for a belief is OK and dont simply allude to it.  When is it OK for me to put my neighbor to death for believing in another god?  Why was it OK for people to do it back then?

If context matters so much, why have you not yet shared the context that can make killing others for their beliefs acceptable?  This seems to be the thrust of your argument...so fucking make it already!!!  I anxiously await a detailed description of the exact context that makes it OK to kill people for their beliefs.

I would like to - and thus my questions to you as to what makes somethiing murder.  

Are you saying humans are more than just another type of animal?  Your responses certainly demonstrate that you do think so, regardless of your 'offical position'.

[BADecker]

More accurately it's called, genocide.In the case of the Israelites murdering non-Israelites, some may prefer the term, "Ethnic Cleansing".

Actually, if you read the account, it was not for having a 'different faith'.

But, lets go with your error and again ask - what determines that something is murder?  Some folks think aborting babies is murder - not all.  Some folk think the government executing murderers or rapists is murder - other folkd do not.

What makes your interpretation of murder the correct one?

Believing in a different god is having a different faith.  Believing anything differently means having a different faith. It is not an error.  Deuteronomy says (God to Moses) kill people who worship other gods.  Worshiping other gods means your faith is different.  How many ways do I have to explain something so simple to you?

Yet, the nations that God directed Moses to destroy, were peopled by people who were turning further and further from God, from the truth of life. So, the destruction was a good thing for them. It only hastened the place where they were going anyway, and gave them peace sooner.

[zolace]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

Well, Romans 1 does speak of God's judgment, yes?  I think you are saying that you don't see the judgement as nation specific - is that what you mean?


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse

Yes if you look at how things worked in the OT and the transition to the NT. To your point if a nation slides into depravity to where selfishness personal or otherwise rules, if we see a senerio such as a max thunderdome movie the nation will suffer. However i don't see any "nation" that is any more or less subject to that senerio. We have the final judgement, we also have the kind of judgement that's been going on caused by sin which is broadly dispersed thoughout the world. The final days (whenever that may be) will not involve a nation but mankind in general. Nations are used as well as people but the final plan belongs to God not us 

Romans 1 is not a transition.  Paul is stating a principle.   This is what happens when folks reject the knowledge of their Creator, true?

People reject God not nations. Nations today are just different forms of govt, i can't seem to get that through to you. Jesus said nation will rise up against nation not naming them or saying one is a chosen nation

[BADecker]

More accurately it's called, genocide.In the case of the Israelites murdering non-Israelites, some may prefer the term, "Ethnic Cleansing".

Actually, if you read the account, it was not for having a 'different faith'.

But, lets go with your error and again ask - what determines that something is murder?  Some folks think aborting babies is murder - not all.  Some folk think the government executing murderers or rapists is murder - other folkd do not.

What makes your interpretation of murder the correct one?

Believing in a different god is having a different faith.  Believing anything differently means having a different faith. It is not an error.  Deuteronomy says (God to Moses) kill people who worship other gods.  Worshiping other gods means your faith is different.  How many ways do I have to explain something so simple to you?

Ah, you are saying this is an objective truth that transcends what humans think?  Hmm, interesting.So, what is this source of absolute truth?

The absolute truth is found in God. Love God above all things, and your neighbor as yourself. Sometimes loving God above all things might include destroying other people. Sometimes destroying them might be the best thing you can do for them. but be darn sure that you KNOW that it is the best.

[sana8410]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

The evil of believing in the Buddha isn't in the fact of the good living that they proclaim. It is in the fact that they think that anybody can ever be good enough to live forever one way or another.

Eternal life isn't something mystical. Rather, it is something ultra-scientific. It is logical. For example, if you could take all the pollution out of our lives, and add only wholesome foods, destroy the inherent degradations in our cells, and think only pure thoughts, we could live for a long time - maybe hundreds of years.

The problem is, we don't know what it is like to do this. Buddhism goes in that direction somewhat. The problem with Buddhism is that it doesn't, can't, go far enough, just like Hinduism.

While Christianity doesn't go as far as Buddhism and Hinduism in the actual living, practical operations, Christianity goes all the way in preparing people for eternal life.

God is ultimately going to destroy this universe because of the evil that has come about in it; God can't stand even the tiniest bit of evil. He is offering us a method in faith in Jesus to gain eternal life in the New Universe He is creating... a Universe that will have no evil in it, no flaws, no capability for potential mistakes, yet freedom, love, and goodness for all who live therein.

You are free to make your choice. God might entice you, He might call to you, He slap you around a little, all so that you wake up and join with Him. He is the only way to eternal life. He is doing it for your own good. No matter what you think, history makes it obvious that everyone dies in this life. At least giver yourself a chance. Turn to God.

why dont you tell us the context in which an instruction to kill women and children for a belief in another god is OK?    Can you do that or will you do the normal thing and allude to some hidden context in some scripture whereby we are supposed to use our ESP to figure out exactly what you might be referring to?  I really dont need a response like...."you clearly ignored the context in Chapter/verse" orthe above ":note that you refuse to consider context".  Ive heard you say shit like that now for days without actually ever explaining the context that might make murdering people OK.   Tell us the context where killing women and children for a belief is OK and dont simply allude to it.  When is it OK for me to put my neighbor to death for believing in another god?  Why was it OK for people to do it back then?

If context matters so much, why have you not yet shared the context that can make killing others for their beliefs acceptable?  This seems to be the thrust of your argument...so fucking make it already!!!  I anxiously await a detailed description of the exact context that makes it OK to kill people for their beliefs.

I would like to - and thus my questions to you as to what makes somethiing murder.  

Are you saying humans are more than just another type of animal?  Your responses certainly demonstrate that you do think so, regardless of your 'offical position'.

Your entire childish argument revolves around everyone believing ..... "If The Bible is True..."

You refuse to acknowledge that The Bible has been proved to be nothing but a sack of shit.

Only a mentally and emotionally  like you continues debate using The Bible as if it were relevent.

You can not use one fairy tales to prove another fairy tale real.

I know that you,refuse to understand that fact, but you are the only person in the room who is so utterly stupid to refuse to accept it.

[BADecker]

Believing in the Buddha has really led those monks down the path of evil hasnt it?   Seriously  that may have been the dumbest thing you have ever said.  And in the long litany of  that has come off your keyboard there is some stiff competition for the  award.   I suppose you will be the first person to volunteer to put those evil bastards to death.

The evil of believing in the Buddha isn't in the fact of the good living that they proclaim. It is in the fact that they think that anybody can ever be good enough to live forever one way or another.

Eternal life isn't something mystical. Rather, it is something ultra-scientific. It is logical. For example, if you could take all the pollution out of our lives, and add only wholesome foods, destroy the inherent degradations in our cells, and think only pure thoughts, we could live for a long time - maybe hundreds of years.

The problem is, we don't know what it is like to do this. Buddhism goes in that direction somewhat. The problem with Buddhism is that it doesn't, can't, go far enough, just like Hinduism.

While Christianity doesn't go as far as Buddhism and Hinduism in the actual living, practical operations, Christianity goes all the way in preparing people for eternal life.

God is ultimately going to destroy this universe because of the evil that has come about in it; God can't stand even the tiniest bit of evil. He is offering us a method in faith in Jesus to gain eternal life in the New Universe He is creating... a Universe that will have no evil in it, no flaws, no capability for potential mistakes, yet freedom, love, and goodness for all who live therein.

You are free to make your choice. God might entice you, He might call to you, He slap you around a little, all so that you wake up and join with Him. He is the only way to eternal life. He is doing it for your own good. No matter what you think, history makes it obvious that everyone dies in this life. At least giver yourself a chance. Turn to God.

why dont you tell us the context in which an instruction to kill women and children for a belief in another god is OK?    Can you do that or will you do the normal thing and allude to some hidden context in some scripture whereby we are supposed to use our ESP to figure out exactly what you might be referring to?  I really dont need a response like...."you clearly ignored the context in Chapter/verse" orthe above ":note that you refuse to consider context".  Ive heard you say shit like that now for days without actually ever explaining the context that might make murdering people OK.   Tell us the context where killing women and children for a belief is OK and dont simply allude to it.  When is it OK for me to put my neighbor to death for believing in another god?  Why was it OK for people to do it back then?

If context matters so much, why have you not yet shared the context that can make killing others for their beliefs acceptable?  This seems to be the thrust of your argument...so fucking make it already!!!  I anxiously await a detailed description of the exact context that makes it OK to kill people for their beliefs.

Do you understand the concept of family? Look at the mafia, for example.

If you kill off the parents because God instructs you to, because they won't accept God, you better be ready to completely brainwash the children into not accepting their parents. If you don't, they will rise up someday, and revert to their parents' faulty beliefs, and kill off you and your whole family. The context is God. And additional context is self-defense.

[BADecker]

People reject God not nations. Nations today are just different forms of govt, i can't seem to get that through to you. Jesus said nation will rise up against nation not naming them or saying one is a chosen nation

You speak something dangerous here. Why and How? You might love God and other people with all your heart. But put it into practice by not paying your income taxes any longer. The bankers are using your tax money to destroy peoples and nations around the world. And it is partially your fault 'cause you help support the bankers through your income taxes.

If God destroys the America for their vicious cruelty expressed through their support of the bankers, you won't survive either.

In the event you don't fall into the above, American classification, check out and be sure that whoever you are doesn't fit some nation.

Palestine is having problems as a nation, not as individuals.

[BADecker]

Your entire childish argument revolves around everyone believing ..... "If The Bible is True..."

You refuse to acknowledge that The Bible has been proved to be nothing but a sack of shit.

Only a mentally and emotionally  like you continues debate using The Bible as if it were relevent.

You can not use one fairy tales to prove another fairy tale real.

I know that you,refuse to understand that fact, but you are the only person in the room who is so utterly stupid to refuse to accept it.

The philosophical writings of the Bible fit people better than any other writings. There is a far larger variety of philosophy in the Bible than anywhere else. So far, everything in the Bible has proven to be true.

If you consider the Bible to be "nothing but a sack of shit," then you are expressing that people are "nothing but a sack of shit." This is true about people. The Bible is different, because the whole idea of the Bible is to give people a way out of being shitty, through salvation by Jesus.

[noviapriani]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

Well, Romans 1 does speak of God's judgment, yes?  I think you are saying that you don't see the judgement as nation specific - is that what you mean?


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse

Yes if you look at how things worked in the OT and the transition to the NT. To your point if a nation slides into depravity to where selfishness personal or otherwise rules, if we see a senerio such as a max thunderdome movie the nation will suffer. However i don't see any "nation" that is any more or less subject to that senerio. We have the final judgement, we also have the kind of judgement that's been going on caused by sin which is broadly dispersed thoughout the world. The final days (whenever that may be) will not involve a nation but mankind in general. Nations are used as well as people but the final plan belongs to God not us 

Romans 1 is not a transition.  Paul is stating a principle.   This is what happens when folks reject the knowledge of their Creator, true?

People reject God not nations. Nations today are just different forms of govt, i can't seem to get that through to you. Jesus said nation will rise up against nation not naming them or saying one is a chosen nation

And nations are made up of people, yes?  And the nation is affected by the type of people that make it up, yes? Psalm 9

[Rigon]

If this is indeed an act of the Creator, and since the Creator is the source of all Goodness - it cannot be evil.

[noviapriani]

If this is indeed an act of the Creator, and since the Creator is the source of all Goodness - it cannot be evil.

What fascinates me is how you dodge questions, and ignore context. Perhaps you are feeling awkward also by your unintentional confession that humans are more than merely animals?

[zolace]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

Well, Romans 1 does speak of God's judgment, yes?  I think you are saying that you don't see the judgement as nation specific - is that what you mean?


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse

Yes if you look at how things worked in the OT and the transition to the NT. To your point if a nation slides into depravity to where selfishness personal or otherwise rules, if we see a senerio such as a max thunderdome movie the nation will suffer. However i don't see any "nation" that is any more or less subject to that senerio. We have the final judgement, we also have the kind of judgement that's been going on caused by sin which is broadly dispersed thoughout the world. The final days (whenever that may be) will not involve a nation but mankind in general. Nations are used as well as people but the final plan belongs to God not us 

Romans 1 is not a transition.  Paul is stating a principle.   This is what happens when folks reject the knowledge of their Creator, true?

People reject God not nations. Nations today are just different forms of govt, i can't seem to get that through to you. Jesus said nation will rise up against nation not naming them or saying one is a chosen nation

And nations are made up of people, yes?  And the nation is affected by the type of people that make it up, yes? Psalm 9

What do you propose? we make people follow the Bible like in the fanatical muslim country's. Relax, God will use the country's as he sees fit even if everyone doesn't believe

[noviapriani]

Actually, the title just asks 'Does God judge the nations' - not did he long ago.

And, as far as the breakdown of the family, sure, what I would have in mind is what God intended.  And everyone has morals, the question is - how do they square with the Creator (which would be what?).

I did mention Romans 1, which is the NT.  And there are other verses in the NT regarding God's judgement on the nations.  Revelation is a whole book on the subject, though reserved for a time in the future.

I think we covered this territory and i don't see anything in Romans 1 to indicate what your saying............

Well, Romans 1 does speak of God's judgment, yes?  I think you are saying that you don't see the judgement as nation specific - is that what you mean?


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse

Yes if you look at how things worked in the OT and the transition to the NT. To your point if a nation slides into depravity to where selfishness personal or otherwise rules, if we see a senerio such as a max thunderdome movie the nation will suffer. However i don't see any "nation" that is any more or less subject to that senerio. We have the final judgement, we also have the kind of judgement that's been going on caused by sin which is broadly dispersed thoughout the world. The final days (whenever that may be) will not involve a nation but mankind in general. Nations are used as well as people but the final plan belongs to God not us 

Romans 1 is not a transition.  Paul is stating a principle.   This is what happens when folks reject the knowledge of their Creator, true?

People reject God not nations. Nations today are just different forms of govt, i can't seem to get that through to you. Jesus said nation will rise up against nation not naming them or saying one is a chosen nation

And nations are made up of people, yes?  And the nation is affected by the type of people that make it up, yes? Psalm 9

What do you propose? we make people follow the Bible like in the fanatical muslim country's. Relax, God will use the country's as he sees fit even if everyone doesn't believe

I am not proposing anything.  The thread is simply about God judging the nations.

[zolace]

Some interesting words in Jeremiah where God defines what He would do as evil. Maybe people get caught up in thinking everything God does is good, instead working toward a good

Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? said the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to them.

[noviapriani]

Some interesting words in Jeremiah where God defines what He would do as evil. Maybe people get caught up in thinking everything God does is good, instead working toward a good

Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? said the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to them.

Evil is used in two different ways even by us today.  A family loses their house in a lighting storm fire, someone may bewail that befell the family.  But, they are not using it in the same way as a family losing their house because of arson.

What has been under discussion is moral evil, rather than simply a calamity, judgement or such (as I believe you are referring to).

[BADecker]

Some interesting words in Jeremiah where God defines what He would do as evil. Maybe people get caught up in thinking everything God does is good, instead working toward a good

Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? said the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to them.

Evil is used in two different ways even by us today.  A family loses their house in a lighting storm fire, someone may bewail that befell the family.  But, they are not using it in the same way as a family losing their house because of arson.

What has been under discussion is moral evil, rather than simply a calamity, judgement or such (as I believe you are referring to).

Check out Ezekiel 28:11-19, Ezekiel is talking to the king of Tyre, but he is really talking to Satan. When you put this together with all the other things that the Bible says about Satan, we see that Satan was trying to take over control, wrest it from God.

Now, for Satan to be as good (capable) as God, he had to create something. But there was nothing left to create, because God had already created everything. There was only ONE thing left that Satan could create that God had not created. That thing was destruction. This is why Satan is called "Destroyer" in the Revelation, in both Greek and Hebrew - Apollyon and Abaddon.

The point is, the only way God could overcome Satan is that He had to take control of "destruction," taking it away from Satan. This is the thing God has done, through Jesus. God doesn't like the idea of destruction. But He is using it better than its creator, Satan.

Ultimately, God will use it to destroy Satan. Then He will use it to destroy all the wickedness that Satan caused. All those, both people and angels, who follow Satan and his ideals will be destroyed by God, as well. Finally, God will use destruction to destroy itself, and there won't be any destruction any longer. This will come about when the New Heavens and New Earth spoken about in the Revelation, finally come into being, after the final judgment.

[noviapriani]

If one goes by the Bible, in many passages it is clear that God can do no moral evil.  So, when it comes to something we do not like, one either rejects the message of the Bible, or accepts it.  But to say the Bible is true, and thus God a murderer (as suggested by one in this thread) is foolish.  That is just abstaining from logic, and ignoreing context.

[zolace]

If one goes by the Bible, in many passages it is clear that God can do no moral evil.  So, when it comes to something we do not like, one either rejects the message of the Bible, or accepts it.  But to say the Bible is true, and thus God a murderer (as suggested by one in this thread) is foolish.  That is just abstaining from logic, and ignoreing context.

Define the message then, i would say Christ is the message. Looking at that Jeremiah verse in 110 it says I will repent of the evil i thought to do. So another message is there is good and evil, if everything works toward good (as the Bible states) then everything would include evil. I won't try and read more into it than that, just seeing what i read. I also won't try to figure it all out, no one can

[BADecker]

If one goes by the Bible, in many passages it is clear that God can do no moral evil.  So, when it comes to something we do not like, one either rejects the message of the Bible, or accepts it.  But to say the Bible is true, and thus God a murderer (as suggested by one in this thread) is foolish.  That is just abstaining from logic, and ignoreing context.

This is such a difficult thing to understand and say. But here goes. Remember that at the Creation, God said that He saw everything that He had created, and it was good. God loved His creation.

When wickedness was found to have entered the universe through Satan, God had a choice to make. That choice was to destroy it all, or else to save it somehow.

The choice was to save it. God sent His Son, Jesus, Who in the power of God, took the God's punishment for man. Jesus could do this, because He became a man, as well as being God.

God did a trick. He injected Himself into the universe, into the form of a man - Jesus - so that multitudes of people could be saved. It cost Jesus a lot - pain and death on the cross, along with the punishment that every person would have received for the evil that each individual does.

Now that we understand this, where is the righteousness and where is the evil? God has turned evil into righteousness through His Son, Jesus.

[noviapriani]

Of course, if there be no God, if we are just animals, highest on earth as it is, what does murder mean even?

But, within us all there is something that testifies that God exists.  Many times we choose to try and silence that testimony (for example - questions about murder get ignored).

In Revelations, you have people crying out to the mountains to hide themselves from the Creator - rather than repent.  It is rarely an issue of evidence, but rather of will.

[Daniel91]

If one goes by the Bible, in many passages it is clear that God can do no moral evil.  So, when it comes to something we do not like, one either rejects the message of the Bible, or accepts it.  But to say the Bible is true, and thus God a murderer (as suggested by one in this thread) is foolish.  That is just abstaining from logic, and ignoreing context.

I agree with you.
God gave freedom and free choice to the people.
So, they are free to do whatever they want.
If people follow God's directions and ask for His help, He will support.
So, Bible is the true but people are killing other people, not God.
In fact, 10 great commandments are basic moral rules for over 3 or 4 thousands years, much before modern human lows.

[noviapriani]

 I agree that Paul says that, for those that love God, all things work together for good (and that would include evil).

But, its another thing to say that God Himself would do something morally evil.  Apart from it not making sense (it would mean there is a Being higher than God Himself - CS Lewis' Mere Christianity actually touches upon this)....

Apart from that, there is the plain reading of scripture that God does not do moral evil.

[shogdite]

Nope, god doesn't exist. Scary to think there are adults still believing in fairy tales  

If he did exist, why would he pass judgement on nations? Wouldn't god have 'created' the nations anyway?

[noviapriani]

In fact, as an example, it is impossible for God to lie.  Nor can he be tempted by evil.  

Hebrews Chapter 6
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

From James 1

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he hath been approved, he shall receive the crown of life, which [the Lord] promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man:
14 but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin: and the sin, when it is fullgrown, bringeth forth death.

[Rigon]

If this is indeed an act of the Creator, and since the Creator is the source of all Goodness - it cannot be evil.

What fascinates me is how you dodge questions, and ignore context. Perhaps you are feeling awkward also by your unintentional confession that humans are more than merely animals?

What fascinates me is that you continue to mention a context where killing women and children for their belief is OK without EVER saying what the context actually is.

[Rigon]

I tell you what.  You tell me the context that makes it OKto kill women and children for their beliefs,  and I promise to look at it and study it and see if it changes my position.  Ive been asking you for this "context" that makes putting women and children to death for some time.  Give it to me and give me a chance to appreciate it and change my mind ok???

[Rigon]

I agree that Paul says that, for those that love God, all things work together for good (and that would include evil).

But, its another thing to say that God Himself would do something morally evil.  Apart from it not making sense (it would mean there is a Being higher than God Himself - CS Lewis' Mere Christianity actually touches upon this)....

Apart from that, there is the plain reading of scripture that God does not do moral evil.

Bible says god is good....so if god tells Moses that women and kids who believe in other gods should be killed...it must be good.


Im dying for the context that makes this OK .  I cant see it in any scripture you have mentioned.  You will have to break down and actually state your position on this clearly.  There is a first time for everything.

[Rigon]

In fact, as an example, it is impossible for God to lie.  Nor can he be tempted by evil.  

Hebrews Chapter 6
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

From James 1

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he hath been approved, he shall receive the crown of life, which [the Lord] promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man:
14 but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin: and the sin, when it is fullgrown, bringeth forth death.

Neither of which imply he cannot DO evil.  The bigger question..... perhaps for zolace....if God is all powerful....why would he need to do evil in order to work towards good?  He is allegedly all powerful.

In any event...it is clear the bible was written by men, fabricated to conform the masses and control them, to answer the unanswered questions of our fears.  Google "the evolution of religion" if you interested in the how religion comes naturally to every tribe around the globe as men became sentient in their own evolution.  This isnt for an guy like you who also denies the reality of evolution, but zolace might be interested.

[Rigon]

Our conscience convinces us there is something wrong with suffering, starvation, rape, pain, and evil, and it makes us aware that love, generosity, compassion, and peace are positive things for which we should strive. This is universally true in all cultures in all times.

[sana8410]

Did any of you pin-heads wonder why your "creator"    created   "evil" in the first place?Did any of you pin-heads ever question why your "creator" was so narcissistic?
If your "creator" was such a great deal, why would his "creation"  not worship it without question?

[sana8410]

The better question is why "god" created it in the first place.It is ridiculous to discuss "god" judging anything that this same "god" created.
How many times does this "god" have to kill-off humans and re-create them?

Did "god" somehow become "surprised" by his "creation" four times!!!! ?

[zolace]

In fact, as an example, it is impossible for God to lie.  Nor can he be tempted by evil.  

Hebrews Chapter 6
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

From James 1

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he hath been approved, he shall receive the crown of life, which [the Lord] promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man:
14 but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin: and the sin, when it is fullgrown, bringeth forth death.

Neither of which imply he cannot DO evil.  The bigger question..... perhaps for zolace....if God is all powerful....why would he need to do evil in order to work towards good?  He is allegedly all powerful.

In any event...it is clear the bible was written by men, fabricated to conform the masses and control them, to answer the unanswered questions of our fears.  Google "the evolution of religion" if you interested in the how religion comes naturally to every tribe around the globe as men became sentient in their own evolution.  This isnt for an guy like you who also denies the reality of evolution, but zolace might be interested.

Good question, i guess we can ask why didn't He just destroy satan right off the bat. Probably the most known use of satan was when God allowed him to torment Job who was beloved of God. Personally i seek a being to put all things right because i don't trust mankind to do it. You question God and that's fine with me, as a matter of fact i trust that more than someone who thinks they can defend all His actions, because i think that's impossible, and i say that not because i don't trust Him. I'll check out your evolution of religion (if you have a link that's cool) but i think religion comes from man interpreting the Bible, not whatever ultimate message the Bible might have. I don't think mankind would be capable of writing such a book over such a long period of time

[noviapriani]

Are you kidding? Give me two interns and a month and I can create a whole new religion with more pages than the bible.Except God in the Bible never gives instructions to murder anyone.  Again, what makes something murder?

[sana8410]

Are you kidding? Give me two interns and a month and I can create a whole new religion with more pages than the bible.Except God in the Bible never gives instructions to murder anyone.  Again, what makes something murder?

33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain
-Deut 2

16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
17 Completely destroy them - the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusite - as the LORD your God has commanded you.
-Deut 20

20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
-Joshua 11

24 And it came to pass when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness where they pursued them, and when they all had fallen by the edge of the sword until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned to Ai and struck it with the edge of the sword.
25 So it was that all who fell that day, both men and women, were twelve thousand - all the people of Ai.
26 For Joshua did not draw back his hand, with which he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
-Joshua 8


Nah! That's not "murder"!

[Rigon]

Are you kidding? Give me two interns and a month and I can create a whole new religion with more pages than the bible.Except God in the Bible never gives instructions to murder anyone.  Again, what makes something murder?

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.


..............is trying to say is that putting your friend or wife to death for having a different belief was not murder in that time.  It was just God's orders.

[noviapriani]

Goes back to - what makes something murder?  When the state orders the Death Penalty, is that murder?

[sana8410]

Again, what makes something murder?

It is a question I have asked you before, but you never answered it.

Answer the question yourself.  If your "creator" commanded you to kill another human being, would you do it?
It is an important question, especially for someone like you in your mentally/emotionally ill condition.
There are many cases of mentally/emotionally disturbed people killing other people because they believed "god" told them to do it.

[noviapriani]

You can answer this question (any of you) also, in seeking to define what murder is:If someone puts to death a family of chimpanzees - is it murder, or not?  Why?

[sana8410]

You can answer this question (any of you) also, in seeking to define what murder is:If someone puts to death a family of chimpanzees - is it murder, or not?  Why?

You don't get to ask questions when you refuse to answer any put to you.  You are such a  waste of human flesh... you can't think for yourself. You can't even post your personal opinion of murder.

[noviapriani]

You can answer this question (any of you) also, in seeking to define what murder is:If someone puts to death a family of chimpanzees - is it murder, or not?  Why?

You don't get to ask questions when you refuse to answer any put to you.  You are such a  waste of human flesh... you can't think for yourself. You can't even post your personal opinion of murder.

It is silly to accuse the Creator of murder - but even sillier when one does not even nail done a definition of murder, so we can then apply it.

[Rigon]

You can answer this question (any of you) also, in seeking to define what murder is:If someone puts to death a family of chimpanzees - is it murder, or not?  Why?

You don't get to ask questions when you refuse to answer any put to you.  You are such a  waste of human flesh... you can't think for yourself. You can't even post your personal opinion of murder.

It is silly to accuse the Creator of murder - but even sillier when one does not even nail done a definition of murder, so we can then apply it.

the creator didnt murder noviapriani...he commanded to murder.  Killing someone who believes something else has always been murder.

[sana8410]

You can answer this question (any of you) also, in seeking to define what murder is:If someone puts to death a family of chimpanzees - is it murder, or not?  Why?

You don't get to ask questions when you refuse to answer any put to you.  You are such a  waste of human flesh... you can't think for yourself. You can't even post your personal opinion of murder.

It is silly to accuse the Creator of murder - but even sillier when one does not even nail done a definition of murder, so we can then apply it.

Of course in your mind, your "creator" deliberately and with  premeditation causing a flood to kill all but a handful of human beings is not murder.

I believe you are suffering from his brain over-heating. It's must be quite stressful to constantly deny what is right in front of your face. The human brain is not design to deal with so much inconistansies. A person can only do so much, "Ignore the truth and cling to the lies", before a mental melt-down occurs

[noviapriani]

 So, that is your excuse for refusing to define what you see as the parameters regarding murder?  Yet, no one is to question you when you proclaim an act is murder?  LOL.

You are not interested in discussion, but just expressing your anger.  I mention about God knowing our hearts - and it is true.  But, really, takes no revelation to see through yours.

[Rigon]

So, that is your excuse for refusing to define what you see as the parameters regarding murder?  Yet, no one is to question you when you proclaim an act is murder?  LOL.

You are not interested in discussion, but just expressing your anger.  I mention about God knowing our hearts - and it is true.  But, really, takes no revelation to see through yours.

No one has refused to define murder.  Its very easy.  Putting to death an innocent person is murder.  God murdered many times.  Perhaps it would be easier if we simply used the term "killer" since it is not a legal definition.  God killed many times.  He killed babies simply for being born at the wrong time.  I guess he continues to kill every day since he pulls all the strings right?

[sana8410]

So, that is your excuse for refusing to define what you see as the parameters regarding murder?  Yet, no one is to question you when you proclaim an act is murder?  LOL.

You are not interested in discussion, but just expressing your anger.  I mention about God knowing our hearts - and it is true.  But, really, takes no revelation to see through yours.

We have discussed this seriously. It is you who keeps dragging this on & on & on & on because you have been proved wrong and you can't handle it.

[sana8410]

Look,Rigon and I have no reason to post from anger when it comes to issues with you. We both realize you are a mentally and emotionally troubled person, and nothing is accomplished by being angry with you.

[noviapriani]

So, that is your excuse for refusing to define what you see as the parameters regarding murder?  Yet, no one is to question you when you proclaim an act is murder?  LOL.

You are not interested in discussion, but just expressing your anger.  I mention about God knowing our hearts - and it is true.  But, really, takes no revelation to see through yours.

We have discussed this seriously. It is you who keeps dragging this on & on & on & on because you have been proved wrong and you can't handle it.

An innocent person - well, that of course begets the question of what makes someone innocent?

What does?  And does this mean that the allies, bombing Germany, were murderers?   When the state uses the DP, is that always murder?

On another note, you still did not answer the post about the chimps.

[sana8410]

You can help yourself if you want to, but just like any other similar problems people have, you have to admit you have a problem and then seek help for recovery.

[Holdaaja]

God does not exist.
So it will judge what ever you want to think it judges.

[Rigon]

So, that is your excuse for refusing to define what you see as the parameters regarding murder?  Yet, no one is to question you when you proclaim an act is murder?  LOL.

You are not interested in discussion, but just expressing your anger.  I mention about God knowing our hearts - and it is true.  But, really, takes no revelation to see through yours.

We have discussed this seriously. It is you who keeps dragging this on & on & on & on because you have been proved wrong and you can't handle it.

An innocent person - well, that of course begets the question of what makes someone innocent?

What does?  And does this mean that the allies, bombing Germany, were murderers?   When the state uses the DP, is that always murder?

On another note, you still did not answer the post about the chimps.

God is also a chimp killer.

Face it , your god is a vindictive murdering son of bitch who will send you to a burning eternal torch of suffering if you skip one sunday of kneeling before him.

[noel57]

He does imagine a nation where there is to much anarchy and blood shed, if you are God won't you pass judgment.

[noviapriani]

rigon, we all already know that alot of what drives you in your arguements on many subjects is your hostility to the God of the Bible.  sana also.  When it leads to distortions, however, it is a serious problem.
Is it murder, when a human being destroys a family of chimps?
What makes someone innocent?  Declaring babies innocent (true or not) does not answer the question.
Does this mean that the allies, bombing Germany, were murderers? When the state uses the DP, is that always murder?

[sana8410]

rigon, we all already know that alot of what drives you in your arguements on many subjects is your hostility to the God of the Bible.  sana also.  When it leads to distortions, however, it is a serious problem.
Is it murder, when a human being destroys a family of chimps?
What makes someone innocent?  Declaring babies innocent (true or not) does not answer the question.
Does this mean that the allies, bombing Germany, were murderers? When the state uses the DP, is that always murder?

Your fairy tale "god" does not exist. It's ridiculous of you to accuse us of being "hostile" toward a figment of your imagination. If any hostility exists, it is directed at you personally. You bring it upon yourself because you refuse to face reality.   "There is no point arguing with a ( person who refuses to face reality) lunatic."

[noviapriani]

You are getting more desperate , sana.  Sad.Why is that?

You know, you might sound somewhat convincing if you guys did not keep avoiding questions that challenge your beliefs.

[sana8410]

You also bring it upon yourself with your childish attempts to re-write the dictionary.  It never dawned upon your  mind to notice that YOU are the one with the problem.

Manipulating scripture or texts (or dictionaries), feeling specially chosen, claiming to receive special messages from God

[sana8410]

You are getting more desperate , sana.  Sad.Why is that?

You know, you might sound somewhat convincing if you guys did not keep avoiding questions that challenge your beliefs.

No, I am not,. What would I be "desperate" about?   I am right.  I speak the truth. I have nothing to fear. No one cares about convincing you of anything.

[Rigon]

rigon, we all already know that alot of what drives you in your arguements on many subjects is your hostility to the God of the Bible.  sana also.  When it leads to distortions, however, it is a serious problem.
Is it murder, when a human being destroys a family of chimps?
What makes someone innocent?  Declaring babies innocent (true or not) does not answer the question.
Does this mean that the allies, bombing Germany, were murderers? When the state uses the DP, is that always murder?

Just because you dont like my answer does not mean I didnt answer to your questions.   killing people who are innocent of any wrongdoing is murder.   god has killed innocent people.