We do not have a gun culture problem, we have a culture problem.

[youyou_]

But obviously many people here don't believe in democracy. But obviously many people here don't believe western nations are democraty anymore.

fyp

[Spendulus]

Taking down the government?
That's what elections are for.
But obviously many people here don't believe in democracy.
You think you can win an armed fight against the majority of the people?

No.  And yes, that's what elections are for.

I'm just noting what the actual intent of the 2nd amendment is.  You can say  it's crazy, or that it isn't relevant today.  Whatever.  Doesn't matter what you think, really.

[RodeoX]

The statistics on gun deaths in Europe are not really different than in the U.S. We do have a lot of shootings every year, but in Europe the whole continent kills each other off every once and a while. Mostly unarmed people are rounded up and executed in the millions. That is supposed to be a better system? It would could not happen that way here.

[Spendulus]

The statistics on gun deaths in Europe are not really different than in the U.S. We do have a lot of shootings every year, but in Europe the whole continent kills each other off every once and a while. Mostly unarmed people are rounded up and executed in the millions. That is supposed to be a better system? It would could not happen that way here.

Well, they won't try that on the Swiss, either.

Odd (not REALLY) how Europeans would like to talk us into disarming the citizens of the US.  But they never say that about the Swiss.

[RodeoX]

The statistics on gun deaths in Europe are not really different than in the U.S. We do have a lot of shootings every year, but in Europe the whole continent kills each other off every once and a while. Mostly unarmed people are rounded up and executed in the millions. That is supposed to be a better system? It would could not happen that way here.

Well, they won't try that on the Swiss, either.

Odd (not REALLY) how Europeans would like to talk us into disarming the citizens of the US.  But they never say that about the Swiss.

Yeah. And the Swiss seem to always avoid the wars. When I was in Croatia during the civil war the Serbs were slaughtering the Croats. Once the guns arrived for the Croats the fighting ground to a near halt.  It is more dangerous when only one side is armed, IMO.

[Spendulus]

The statistics on gun deaths in Europe are not really different than in the U.S. We do have a lot of shootings every year, but in Europe the whole continent kills each other off every once and a while. Mostly unarmed people are rounded up and executed in the millions. That is supposed to be a better system? It would could not happen that way here.

Well, they won't try that on the Swiss, either.

Odd (not REALLY) how Europeans would like to talk us into disarming the citizens of the US.  But they never say that about the Swiss.

Yeah. And the Swiss seem to always avoid the wars. When I was in Croatia during the civil war the Serbs were slaughtering the Croats. Once the guns arrived for the Croats the fighting ground to a near halt.  It is more dangerous when only one side is armed, IMO.

Yep.

It's just not fair, an armed robber should have to worry about the homeowner having assault rifles.

[TheButterZone]

Taking down the government?
That's what elections are for.
But obviously many people here don't believe in democracy.
You think you can win an armed fight against the majority of the people?

Elections are for the government to count the votes in favor of the worst possible evil. Electoral fraud is the rule, not the exception.

[Arriemoller]

Taking down the government?
That's what elections are for.
But obviously many people here don't believe in democracy.
You think you can win an armed fight against the majority of the people?

No.  And yes, that's what elections are for.

I'm just noting what the actual intent of the 2nd amendment is.  You can say  it's crazy, or that it isn't relevant today.  Whatever.  Doesn't matter what you think, really.

The second amendment is so that you (the majority) can take down a corrupt government, i.e. a government that does no longer adhere to the constitution. Not for a small minority to stage a coup d'etat.

[Spendulus]

Taking down the government?
That's what elections are for.
But obviously many people here don't believe in democracy.
You think you can win an armed fight against the majority of the people?

No.  And yes, that's what elections are for.

I'm just noting what the actual intent of the 2nd amendment is.  You can say  it's crazy, or that it isn't relevant today.  Whatever.  Doesn't matter what you think, really.

The second amendment is so that you (the majority) can take down a corrupt government, i.e. a government that does no longer adhere to the constitution. Not for a small minority to stage a coup d'etat.

We could argue the details, yes.  But the main and important point is that the right to own weapons in the USA is not related to a right to target shooting, or a right to hunt animals.

It is a right to own weapons for defense of oneself, one's family, and one's society, up to and including against a government which has turned gangster.  And this right is not subjugated or limited by any stated democratic process such as "elections."

[Arriemoller]

Actually the main and important point is that it is a right in the USA and a privilege in most other countries.

[Lethn]

Taking down the government?
That's what elections are for.
But obviously many people here don't believe in democracy.
You think you can win an armed fight against the majority of the people?

It depends on the country but in a lot of western countries the voting turnout is so low that the Democracy isn't actually representing the people at all.

[iCEBREAKER]

Actually the main and important point is that it is a right in the USA and a privilege in most other countries.

Just as with freedom of speech, armed self-defense is a right of all people everywhere, regardless of whether the local authorities protect it or violate it.

Few countries have enshrined that right in law to the extent of the 2nd Amendment.  That's a shame; where government fears its citizens liberty exists, where citizens fear their government, the opposite.

[Arriemoller]

Taking down the government?
That's what elections are for.
But obviously many people here don't believe in democracy.
You think you can win an armed fight against the majority of the people?

It depends on the country but in a lot of western country the voting turnout is so low that the Democracy isn't actually representing the people at all.

But if the people doesn't want to vote, then that is also a part of the democracy, not voting is a kind of voting in it self, a way to say I don't care or I'm happy as it is.

[Arriemoller]

Actually the main and important point is that it is a right in the USA and a privilege in most other countries.

Just as with freedom of speech, armed self-defense is a right of all people everywhere, regardless of whether the local authorities protect it or violate it.

Few countries have enshrined that right in law to the extent of the 2nd Amendment.  That's a shame; where government fears its citizens liberty exists, where citizens fear their government, the opposite.

I agree that it is a natural right, but I'm afraid the courts don't obey by those laws.

[Spendulus]

Actually the main and important point is that it is a right in the USA and a privilege in most other countries.

And interestingly, now with Bitcoin the question arises whether fiat currency is a right of the State, or may it be a privilege.

And whether the people have a right to their own currency, or is it just a privilege.

This may prove to be equally important as the 1st and 2nd Amendments in it's effects on nations across the world.

[TheButterZone]

Taking down the government?
That's what elections are for.
But obviously many people here don't believe in democracy.
You think you can win an armed fight against the majority of the people?

It depends on the country but in a lot of western country the voting turnout is so low that the Democracy isn't actually representing the people at all.

But if the people doesn't want to vote, then that is also a part of the democracy, not voting is a kind of voting in it self, a way to say I don't care or I'm happy as it is.

We want to see our votes counted and the worst possible evil to NOT "win" whenever it counts. Only one of these actually happens, so why should we waste our time on a discarded vote?

"There are three and only three ways to reform our Congressional legislation, familiarly called, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -Stephen Decatur Miller

We are at the jury box stage right now. If the courts refuse to obey the law and SCOTUS rules to the effect of "there is no right to self-defense, so disarmament and subsequent genocide is absolutely legal", then there will be a full-blown civil war in the U.S. again, but between the tyrannical, undemocratically unelected tyrants, and we the people.

[Arriemoller]

Actually the main and important point is that it is a right in the USA and a privilege in most other countries.

And interestingly, now with Bitcoin the question arises whether fiat currency is a right of the State, or may it be a privilege.

And whether the people have a right to their own currency, or is it just a privilege.

This may prove to be equally important as the 1st and 2nd Amendments in it's effects on nations across the world.

Interesting point.

And on the gun issue: The coming 3D printers will make it very easy for anyone anywhere to manufacture a gun, in the future it might be the ammo that is restricted instead.

[Arriemoller]

But who knows, the 3D printer might just be the first step towards a Star Trek like replicator, and then you can just order some Earl Grey, hot, and a box of 9mm parabellum.

[TheButterZone]

Actually the main and important point is that it is a right in the USA and a privilege in most other countries.

And interestingly, now with Bitcoin the question arises whether fiat currency is a right of the State, or may it be a privilege.

And whether the people have a right to their own currency, or is it just a privilege.

This may prove to be equally important as the 1st and 2nd Amendments in it's effects on nations across the world.

Interesting point.

And on the gun issue: The coming 3D printers will make it very easy for anyone anywhere to manufacture a gun, in the future it might be the ammo that is restricted instead.

At some point someone will invent ammo that can be 3D printed. And as long as that technological leap will be made, I hope the inventor can also make the 3D printed bullets render people unconscious Star Trek style, but never be able to kill them.

[Spendulus]

Actually the main and important point is that it is a right in the USA and a privilege in most other countries.

And interestingly, now with Bitcoin the question arises whether fiat currency is a right of the State, or may it be a privilege.

And whether the people have a right to their own currency, or is it just a privilege.

This may prove to be equally important as the 1st and 2nd Amendments in it's effects on nations across the world.

Interesting point.

And on the gun issue: The coming 3D printers will make it very easy for anyone anywhere to manufacture a gun, in the future it might be the ammo that is restricted instead.

At some point someone will invent ammo that can be 3D printed. And as long as that technological leap will be made, I hope the inventor can also make the 3D printed bullets render people unconscious Star Trek style, but never be able to kill them.

Well, or equally likely, alternative means of high energy projectile launching.

I'd personally like a 3d printed hypervelocity railgun pistol that shot sewing needles.   For a rifle, a compressed air operated 800 foot per second beer can launcher would do nicely.  Not talking empty cans here...