bter hacked and lost 50m nxt

[devphp]

So, here is what's going to happen.

In NXT, forgers decide what chain to forge on.

NXT is all for decentralization.

CfB is against a rollback, he said, but he sees not giving a choice to the community as a centralized decision on his part.

That's why he's going to put a modified release for download, which rolls back the chain.

If enough forgers download that release and forge with it and their chain is longer, then that chain wins and the hack is rolled back.

If enough forgers stay on the old chain and keep it the longest, then the hack is not rolled back.

That's how decentralization works in the PoS world.

The equivalent in PoW would be 51% of the miners mining on the longest chain, it's same in PoS.

Let's see how this drama unfolds

Interesting. A practical problem may be that most forgers automate, checking in maybe once or twice a month. Forgers should be actively notified of the position so that they download the release and forge the uncorrupted fork. I think this is right but by all means disagree with me if it is not.

There is no such thing as corrupted or uncorrupted chain. Personally, I am going to forge on the old chain, because I believe in that people need to be their own bank and not keep funds at exchanges.

[1715126841]

1715126841

[1715126841]

1715126841

[rugrats]

So, here is what's going to happen.

In NXT, forgers decide what chain to forge on.

NXT is all for decentralization.

CfB is against a rollback, he said, but he sees not giving a choice to the community as a centralized decision on his part.

That's why he's going to put a modified release for download, which rolls back the chain.

If enough forgers download that release and forge with it and their chain is longer, then that chain wins and the hack is rolled back.

If enough forgers stay on the old chain and keep it the longest, then the hack is not rolled back.

That's how decentralization works in the PoS world.

The equivalent in PoW would be 51% of the miners mining on the longest chain, it's same in PoS.

Let's see how this drama unfolds

Right.

This is exactly what decentralisation is.

Like I was saying earlier in the thread.

Coordination of peers/forger into a voting block is not decentralized.
Not all Nxt holders will be involved in the decision-making process, and the smaller shareholders and retail partners will be alienated - even if such a measure reaches 51%.
In the case of retailers, they could potentially face loses for services rendered or products sold.

In view of that, what major investor or retailer would dare make any future commitments to Nxt if they know Nxt has a history of doing rollbacks?
Would a major retailer be willing to offer a Nxt payment option to their customers knowing a rollback is a possibility?

[Doriangrayz]

are the Nxt trades stopped?

[Bitcoins101]

OH CRAP GUYS!!! Look at the most recent messages on the blockchain. BTER already sent 112 BTC, but the hacker has only sent 5,000,000 NXT back. Now BTER is pleading with the hacker to send the rest back. Everyone except the hacker here is going to get screwed.


"We have already done our part. Send the rest NXT back for the community and it will be over. Make life easier for both you and others."

We're screwed.

[devphp]

Coordination of peers/forger into a voting block is not decentralized.
Not all Nxt holders will be involved in the decision-making process, and the smaller shareholders and retail partners will be alienated - even if such a measure reaches 51%.
In the case of retailers, they could potentially face loses for services rendered or products sold.

In view of that, what major investor or retailer would dare make any future commitments to Nxt if they know Nxt has a history of doing rollbacks?
Would a major retailer be willing to offer a Nxt payment option to their customers knowing a rollback is a possibility?

In crypto currencies the majority of miners/forgers decide everthing. It's 51% or so in PoW and in NXT at this time. When TF is implemented in NXT, then it will take 90% power to overcome the chain, which will make it more secure than PoW. Bitcoin did rollbacks in its history too, so nothing dramatic here.

[Este Nuno]

So, here is what's going to happen.

In NXT, forgers decide what chain to forge on.

NXT is all for decentralization.

CfB is against a rollback, he said, but he sees not giving a choice to the community as a centralized decision on his part.

That's why he's going to put a modified release for download, which rolls back the chain.

If enough forgers download that release and forge with it and their chain is longer, then that chain wins and the hack is rolled back.

If enough forgers stay on the old chain and keep it the longest, then the hack is not rolled back.

That's how decentralization works in the PoS world.

The equivalent in PoW would be 51% of the miners mining on the longest chain, it's same in PoS.

Let's see how this drama unfolds

Interesting. A practical problem may be that most forgers automate, checking in maybe once or twice a month. Forgers should be actively notified of the position so that they download the release and forge the uncorrupted fork. I think this is right but by all means disagree with me if it is not.

There is no such thing as corrupted or uncorrupted chain. Personally, I am going to forge on the old chain, because I believe in that people need to be their own bank and not keep funds at exchanges.

You should advise your fellow NXTians that everyone should stop talking about not rolling back. Even if people are going to forge on the old chain the more they say "no rollback" the less chance the hacker will actually complete the deal with Lin. He has no incentive to send the money back and save everyone's money if all of the NXT community is shouting "NO ROLLBACK!" at the top of their lungs.

At least bluff a little that it's going to be rolled back.

[Viper1]

Bter has so far sent 30 BTC then. They should get back at least 15m NXT for that, but fully expect the hacker to run away. Why give the thief more money when he said negotiations are over.

Who sent the other 80 BTC then?

Bter sent the full 100BTC. Not sure about the other 10 or if there was another 10. There was a couple BTC in that account before all this started I think.

That's what I thought as well.

I'm surprised they sent it even after he said the deal was off.

They're clearly panicking.

They were rattled and panicked right from the start.

[Schwarzalbert]

Now we will see if NXT is decentralized or not


rollback = centralized

You're right! +100 !

[rugrats]

Coordination of peers/forger into a voting block is not decentralized.
Not all Nxt holders will be involved in the decision-making process, and the smaller shareholders and retail partners will be alienated - even if such a measure reaches 51%.
In the case of retailers, they could potentially face loses for services rendered or products sold.

In view of that, what major investor or retailer would dare make any future commitments to Nxt if they know Nxt has a history of doing rollbacks?
Would a major retailer be willing to offer a Nxt payment option to their customers knowing a rollback is a possibility?

In crypto currencies the majority of miners/forgers decide everthing. It's 51% or so in PoW and in NXT at this time. When TF is implemented in NXT, then it will take 90% power to overcome the chain, which will make it more secure than PoW. Bitcoin did rollbacks in its history too, so nothing dramatic here.

Yes, but that doesn't mean it is decentralized. In fact, centralization of mining power is one of the biggest concerns for BTC now. Further, I don't think BTC protocol allows rollbacks.

[devphp]

At least bluff a little that it's going to be rolled back.

I am not good at bluffing and not going to. Let the chips fall where they may.

[nakaone]

Now we will see if NXT is decentralized or not


rollback = centralized

You're right! +100 !

to be fair - I like the proposal of cfb - if you think on a wider scale this could even be a feature.

no more robberies possible

[Nautica]

https://nxtforum.org/nrs-releases/nrs-v1-2-5b/

It's time to freeze his account. There's a way to do it without affecting any other transaction. It's not a rollback. Let's make this happen.

[bitfromit]

OH CRAP GUYS!!! Look at the most recent messages on the blockchain. BTER already sent 112 BTC, but the hacker has only sent 5,000,000 NXT back. Now BTER is pleading with the hacker to send the rest back. Everyone except the hacker here is going to get screwed.


"We have already done our part. Send the rest NXT back for the community and it will be over. Make life easier for both you and others."

We're screwed.

Jeeez relax. NXT will be fine...

[devphp]

Yes, but that doesn't mean it is decentralized. In fact, centralization of mining power is one of the biggest concerns for BTC now. Further, I don't think BTC protocol allows rollbacks.

It's decentralized if no one entity has 51% power (or 90% when TF is implemented in a few months). There is no one entity in NXT that has 51% forging power. If forgers decide to download the modified release and do the rollback, then it's democracy in PoS style. BTC software could also be modified to do a rollback and if enough miners download it and reach 51% of mining power OR if enough miners decide to secretly mine a separate chain and reach 51% of mining power, they orphan all the other miners' blocks.

[Este Nuno]

Coordination of peers/forger into a voting block is not decentralized.
Not all Nxt holders will be involved in the decision-making process, and the smaller shareholders and retail partners will be alienated - even if such a measure reaches 51%.
In the case of retailers, they could potentially face loses for services rendered or products sold.

In view of that, what major investor or retailer would dare make any future commitments to Nxt if they know Nxt has a history of doing rollbacks?
Would a major retailer be willing to offer a Nxt payment option to their customers knowing a rollback is a possibility?

In crypto currencies the majority of miners/forgers decide everthing. It's 51% or so in PoW and in NXT at this time. When TF is implemented in NXT, then it will take 90% power to overcome the chain, which will make it more secure than PoW. Bitcoin did rollbacks in its history too, so nothing dramatic here.

Yes, but that doesn't mean it is decentralized. In fact, centralization of mining power is one of the biggest concerns for BTC now. Further, I don't think BTC protocol allows rollbacks.

Bitcoin itself has been rolled back...

[Vega]

At least bluff a little that it's going to be rolled back.

I am not good at bluffing and not going to. Let the chips fall where they may.

Also, lets say there is a rollback. Then what? Hacker knows bter account password. Bter will immediately try to transfer the funds, but so is the hacker. If they try to include it in the same block, I'm not sure what happends, but I think the transaction with the higher fee will be accepted. I'm pretty sure that will be the hacker.
Either way, rollback is not a sure solution eather. (Technically speaking, very bad idea overall.)

[Viper1]

Threats on the NXT blockchain now.  lol

Let me present myself. I am a professional investor. I own several million NXT, one of them being on this account. I also own thousands of bitcoins, plus large sums in dollars, stocks, and physical gold. I am announcing here that if for some reason you guys (BTER, the small fish trying to buy the NXT from you, and yourself) screw the deal, then I will have to step up personnally. This can hurt NXT a lot, a make me lose over $1M of NXT investments, but I can assure you that if this happens, I will personnally make sure you end up in jail. And will spend whatever money you end up costing me to track you down for this specific purpose. So, to all: Stop panicking. Let's do thing clear and cut. Do your part of the deal, negociate with BTER. End of story. Thanks for reading. And think.

[rugrats]

Yes, but that doesn't mean it is decentralized. In fact, centralization of mining power is one of the biggest concerns for BTC now. Further, I don't think BTC protocol allows rollbacks.

It's decentralized if no one entity has 51% power (or 90% when TF is implemented in a few months). There is no one entity in NXT that has 51% forging power. If forgers decide to download the modified release and do the rollback, then it's democracy in PoS style. BTC software could also be modified to do a rollback and if enough miners download it and reach 51% of mining power OR if enough miners decide to secretly mine a separate chain and reach 51% of mining power, they orphan all the other miners' blocks.

For some strange reason, you seem to equate the majority threshold and democracy as the benchmark for decentralization. It is not.
Further, don't keep snipping our conversations. Otherwise, I might forget you earlier claims such as BTC has done rollbacks before.
Also, your last two sentences seem to refer to forking.

[rugrats]

Coordination of peers/forger into a voting block is not decentralized.
Not all Nxt holders will be involved in the decision-making process, and the smaller shareholders and retail partners will be alienated - even if such a measure reaches 51%.
In the case of retailers, they could potentially face loses for services rendered or products sold.

In view of that, what major investor or retailer would dare make any future commitments to Nxt if they know Nxt has a history of doing rollbacks?
Would a major retailer be willing to offer a Nxt payment option to their customers knowing a rollback is a possibility?

In crypto currencies the majority of miners/forgers decide everthing. It's 51% or so in PoW and in NXT at this time. When TF is implemented in NXT, then it will take 90% power to overcome the chain, which will make it more secure than PoW. Bitcoin did rollbacks in its history too, so nothing dramatic here.

Yes, but that doesn't mean it is decentralized. In fact, centralization of mining power is one of the biggest concerns for BTC now. Further, I don't think BTC protocol allows rollbacks.

Bitcoin itself has been rolled back...

When?

[maok]

So, here is what's going to happen.

In NXT, forgers decide what chain to forge on.

NXT is all for decentralization.

CfB is against a rollback, he said, but he sees not giving a choice to the community as a centralized decision on his part.

That's why he's going to put a modified release for download, which rolls back the chain.

If enough forgers download that release and forge with it and their chain is longer, then that chain wins and the hack is rolled back.

If enough forgers stay on the old chain and keep it the longest, then the hack is not rolled back.

That's how decentralization works in the PoS world.

The equivalent in PoW would be 51% of the miners mining on the longest chain, it's same in PoS.

Let's see how this drama unfolds

Right.

This is exactly what decentralisation is.

Like I was saying earlier in the thread.

Coordination of peers/forger into a voting block is not decentralized.
Not all Nxt holders will be involved in the decision-making process, and the smaller shareholders and retail partners will be alienated - even if such a measure reaches 51%.
In the case of retailers, they could potentially face loses for services rendered or products sold.

In view of that, what major investor or retailer would dare make any future commitments to Nxt if they know Nxt has a history of doing rollbacks?
Would a major retailer be willing to offer a Nxt payment option to their customers knowing a rollback is a possibility?

Exactly, going back in blockchain is an unwritten rule. It shouldn't happen. If this happens it clearly means that the miners which chose to do so act in a centralized way for their own private benefit(a real life revolution always has couple of central leaders without which the revolution would fail). The small miners will not have a choice. It will be mostly decided the by pools owners.

Going back into the blockchain is a centralized decision no matter how you look at it and who takes part in it. Unless there is a major bug affecting all users, the rolling back shouldn't be an option.