Bitcoin Forum
October 17, 2021, 11:20:36 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 22.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion  (Read 18345 times)
krach
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1853
Merit: 1008


Get Rekt


View Profile WWW
September 30, 2014, 03:12:13 PM
 #181

I never attacked him. I simply pointed out that he is a delgate. You would think that a delagte would simply come out and say "I happen to be a delagte" but that was not the case. Is that an attack? I agree with many things that he said, however it simply is not true that you can do all things with bitBTC that you can with bitcoin ect. I guess resorting to using the word nazi is level headed.

[color=#00██ ████ ████



▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄
█  ▄▀▄             █▀▀▐▀▄▄
█  █▀█             █  ▐  ▐▌
█       ▄██▄       █  ▌  █
█     ▄██████▄     █  ▌ ▐▌
█    ██████████    █ ▐  █
█   ▐██████████▌   █ ▐ ▐▌
█    ▀▀██████▀▀    █ ▌ █
█     ▄▄▄██▄▄▄     █ ▌▐▌
█                  █▐ █
█                  █▐▐▌
█                  █▐█
▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀█

▄▄█████████▄▄
▄█▀▀▀█████████▀▀▀█▄
▄█▀    ▄▀█████▀     ▀█▄
▄█▄    █        ▀▄   ███▄
▄████▀▀▀▀▄       ▄▀▀▀▀▀███▄
████      ▀▄▄▄▄▄▀       ███
███     ▄▄███████▄▄     ▄▀█
█  ▀▄ ▄▀ ▀███████▀ ▀▄ ▄▀  █
▀█   █     ▀███▀     ▀▄  █▀
▀█▄▄█▄      █        █▄█▀
▀█████▄ ▄▀▀ ▀▀▄▄ ▄▄███▀
▀█████        ████▀
▀▀█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█▀▀



● OVER 1000000000 REKT PLEBS
● DAILY PARLAYS, ACCAS, SINGLES AND BOASTING
● BONUS HUNTING & VIP PICKS
● 24/7 LIVE TROLL BOX
● SCAM TOUTS ROASTED LIVE
 
1634512836
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1634512836

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1634512836
Reply with quote  #2

1634512836
Report to moderator
1634512836
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1634512836

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1634512836
Reply with quote  #2

1634512836
Report to moderator
1634512836
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1634512836

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1634512836
Reply with quote  #2

1634512836
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1634512836
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1634512836

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1634512836
Reply with quote  #2

1634512836
Report to moderator
1634512836
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1634512836

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1634512836
Reply with quote  #2

1634512836
Report to moderator
NewLiberty
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1204
Merit: 1001


Gresham's Lawyer


View Profile WWW
September 30, 2014, 03:13:20 PM
 #182

All I see in this thread are CoinHoarder giving level-headed, unbiased arguments and krach flopping around trolling BTSX and attacking CoinHoarder for being a BTSX delegate, as if there's something wrong with that.

Krach's opinion of BTSX obviously won't change, so there's no point in flopping along with him.

I am working to understand it.  It seems to have some implications beyond what might be obvious.  I don't really care what roles and interests individuals have, what I care about is the technology and some-but-not-all of their dialog is helpful for my understanding.
It seems to be potentially REALLY useful, but I can't seem to wrap my head around it all from the descriptions, use of novel terms, and use of existing terms with what may be new meanings.
I may have to wait until I can look at the code.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
nomoreheroes7
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 326
Merit: 250


King of all the land


View Profile
September 30, 2014, 03:22:30 PM
 #183

I never attacked him. I simply pointed out that he is a delgate. You would think that a delagte would simply come out and say "I happen to be a delagte" but that was not the case. Is that an attack? I agree with many things that he said, however it simply is not true that you can do all things with bitBTC that you can with bitcoin ect. I guess resorting to using the word nazi is level headed.


Fair points. Agreed.

However, BTSX is still very, very young. It seems like a lot of your criticisms of it won't matter at all once BitShares reaches full potential and proper liquidity is in place. The future possibilities are immense, and I'm not going to let minor growing pains during its first few months of existence deter me from investing in opportunity where I see it.
brekyrself
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 547
Merit: 502


View Profile
September 30, 2014, 03:39:49 PM
 #184

I never attacked him. I simply pointed out that he is a delgate. You would think that a delagte would simply come out and say "I happen to be a delagte" but that was not the case. Is that an attack? I agree with many things that he said, however it simply is not true that you can do all things with bitBTC that you can with bitcoin ect. I guess resorting to using the word nazi is level headed.


What difference does it make who is a delegate?  You make it sound like delegates are appointed kings or royalty, anyone can be a delegate just like anyone can mine PoW.  Even more so if someone does not do a good job as a delegate, such as computer up time, running the latest software, publishing price feeds often, they will be voted out.
krach
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1853
Merit: 1008


Get Rekt


View Profile WWW
September 30, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
 #185

Quote
What difference does it make who is a delegate?
Just shows a clear point of view and vested interest.

[color=#00██ ████ ████



▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄
█  ▄▀▄             █▀▀▐▀▄▄
█  █▀█             █  ▐  ▐▌
█       ▄██▄       █  ▌  █
█     ▄██████▄     █  ▌ ▐▌
█    ██████████    █ ▐  █
█   ▐██████████▌   █ ▐ ▐▌
█    ▀▀██████▀▀    █ ▌ █
█     ▄▄▄██▄▄▄     █ ▌▐▌
█                  █▐ █
█                  █▐▐▌
█                  █▐█
▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀█

▄▄█████████▄▄
▄█▀▀▀█████████▀▀▀█▄
▄█▀    ▄▀█████▀     ▀█▄
▄█▄    █        ▀▄   ███▄
▄████▀▀▀▀▄       ▄▀▀▀▀▀███▄
████      ▀▄▄▄▄▄▀       ███
███     ▄▄███████▄▄     ▄▀█
█  ▀▄ ▄▀ ▀███████▀ ▀▄ ▄▀  █
▀█   █     ▀███▀     ▀▄  █▀
▀█▄▄█▄      █        █▄█▀
▀█████▄ ▄▀▀ ▀▀▄▄ ▄▄███▀
▀█████        ████▀
▀▀█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█▀▀



● OVER 1000000000 REKT PLEBS
● DAILY PARLAYS, ACCAS, SINGLES AND BOASTING
● BONUS HUNTING & VIP PICKS
● 24/7 LIVE TROLL BOX
● SCAM TOUTS ROASTED LIVE
 
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
September 30, 2014, 04:39:05 PM
Last edit: September 30, 2014, 06:45:21 PM by CoinHoarder
 #186


In the event that a bubble does occur, people can diversify into bitFIAT to reduce the amplitude of the bubble and reduce your exposure, and that is unlike any other cryptocurrency where you would need to actually sell them to reduce exposure which creates downward pressure on the market.

Can you describe the difference you see between "diversify into" and "actually sell".

Let's say you think a cryptocoin is at the top of a mini bubble and will likely go down in value in the short term.

With most cryptocurrencies you would need to sell them on the market to reduce your exposure which creates downward pressure on the market. Money exits the cryptocurrency's ecosystem for another cryptocurrency or FIAT. You could do so off of services or exchanges, but it is not convenient nor quick, and has counterparty risk involved.

With BitsharesX you can instead buy bitFIAT which are backed by BTSX, and thus there is no downward pressure put on the market and no money actually leaves the BTSX ecosystem. Yet, the end result is similar as you still reduce exposure to a downward price swing. There is no reason for the price to go down unless someone wants to exit the BitsharesX ecosystem all together.


In your "diversify into" example.  With what am I buying bitFIAT?  Is this new investment?  Do I still own the BitsharesX that I am expecting to decline in value?  If I do not still own the BTSX, who does?  Why does my selling them not cause downward pressure?

I am not yet finding any difference between "diversify into" and "actually sell" other than "diversify into" includes also purchasing bitFIAT which from the sounds of this "backing" system may create wash sale tax loss implications for me, increasing my risk and limiting my gains due to the way that taxes work.
http://www.sec.gov/answers/wash.htm

You ask some good questions, I will try to answer them the best I can but I'm afraid I don't have all the answers.

You could buy bitUSD, bitEUR, or bitCNY in the above example and it would all work similar. There may be some other bitFIAT Bitassets coming out, I am not sure. They are assets that resemble the value of their real life counterparts through a complicated market pegging system.

All Bitassets are backed by 2x the collateral from the shorts, by matching a short with a long. They do not come into existence any other way, and by matching a sell with a buy from an already existing Bitasset, the collateral is still there. So, you might could look at it as still owning the BTSX you sold for Bitassets, but I am not a tax lawyer.

Technically the short position is the one that "owns" your BTSX when you buy a Bitasset, as they are are the ones putting up the collateral. I could be wrong on this, but I think the BTSX backing the Bitassets are held in a multi signature account in the back end of the decentralized exchange.

After thinking about it more, selling BTSX for a Bitasset does technically create downward pressure on the BTSX market and upward pressure on the Bitasset market, however I think that downward pressure on BTSX is negligible. Perhaps my example wasn't clear, I will try again.

By selling 1 Bitcoin for FIAT on an exchange it definitely creates downward pressure, I think we can both agree on that. 1 Bitcoin worth of FIAT leaves the Bitcoin ecosystem completely until you buy back into Bitcoin.

By selling 1 BTSX for Bitassets, I think the downward pressure is negligible as there is 2 BTSX worth of whatever Bitasset you purchased tied up as collateral, so no BTSX leaves the ecosystem and an extra one is tied up with collateral. If anything a Bitasset coming into existence bolsters the market cap as 2x the BTSX is being held by collateral and is not sold on the market. My point is that Bitassets are a component of BTSX, an asset traded within it on a decentralized exchange (although centralized exchanges can and do trade them as well) and when selling BTSX for a Bitasset it doesn't detract from the market cap of BTSX. Since Bitassets are backed by BTSX and they are a token traded within it, no money ever leaves the BTSX ecosystem by buying them. Am I completely wrong on this? It makes sense to me.

Technically, all Bitassets are backed by BTSX, so you could look at it as not being a new investment, but I could also see it being the other way and admittedly no one really knows possible tax implications as the technology is still pretty new. There are some opposing opinions floating around about what (if any) taxes will apply when trading Bitassets. It makes sense to me that it would not be a taxable event until you spend the bitassets on goods or services or cash them out into real FIAT and realize capital gains as trading from Bitassets to BTSX is similar to crypto to crypto trading. This seems to be the general consensus, but I honestly have no idea if this is accurate or not. I have asked your question in the only place I've seen tax discussion, maybe someone will be able to shed more light on it. A lot of people don't seem to think it is a taxable event, but I have seen at least one mention of the Wash rule in the replies to the link just posted in this thread to Stan's post. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9308.0
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
September 30, 2014, 04:42:32 PM
Last edit: September 30, 2014, 04:57:04 PM by CoinHoarder
 #187

Quote
What difference does it make who is a delegate?
Just shows a clear point of view and vested interest.

You are ignoring your own vested interest... Everyone has vested interest whether a delegate or not, owner of Bitcoin, owner of Bitcoin service or business, owner of X coin, developer of Y coin, or a miner of Z coin. Everyone has vested interest on these forums, yet do not state them with every post they make. By reading my posts it is blatantly obvious I have some sort of vested interest in BTSX, and your request for me to give a disclaimer with every post is unreasonable. You would be lying if you say you don't have any vested interest yourself, yet I don't see you stating clearly what your vested interests are with every post you make, so I don't see why you require the same of me. Do you write "Bitcoiner" on your forehead so people immediately know when you talk about it you have vested interest?

I am not selling anything here, I am helping people understand BTSX meanwhile trying to come to a deeper understanding of it myself. Conversing about the different facets of BTSX helps me learn by reinforcing things I already know, thinking about new things I haven't before, and hearing opposing opinions. Maybe BTSX is not as great as I think it is and one of you will help me see some glaring issue. I haven't seen anything yet along these lines. Although there is some risk involved with Bitassets, I see it as being negligible and akin to the risks (vulnerabilities) that exist with Bitcoin but are unlikely to happen.
krach
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1853
Merit: 1008


Get Rekt


View Profile WWW
September 30, 2014, 05:25:34 PM
 #188

Quote
You are ignoring your own vested interest...
No, im not promoting anything in this thread but you are, of course everyone has a vested interest and I am pointing out what yours is, is that bad or wrong? Hell it should even show how commited you are to the BTSX tribe.  I would asume that you could tell us how much the VC company makes from all this since you are a delagte, guess not.

Quote
and your request for me to give a disclaimer with every post is unreasonable.
Hi,
When and where did I request you to do that?


Quote
anyone can be a delegate
anyone can run for president


sounds legit

[color=#00██ ████ ████



▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄
█  ▄▀▄             █▀▀▐▀▄▄
█  █▀█             █  ▐  ▐▌
█       ▄██▄       █  ▌  █
█     ▄██████▄     █  ▌ ▐▌
█    ██████████    █ ▐  █
█   ▐██████████▌   █ ▐ ▐▌
█    ▀▀██████▀▀    █ ▌ █
█     ▄▄▄██▄▄▄     █ ▌▐▌
█                  █▐ █
█                  █▐▐▌
█                  █▐█
▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀█

▄▄█████████▄▄
▄█▀▀▀█████████▀▀▀█▄
▄█▀    ▄▀█████▀     ▀█▄
▄█▄    █        ▀▄   ███▄
▄████▀▀▀▀▄       ▄▀▀▀▀▀███▄
████      ▀▄▄▄▄▄▀       ███
███     ▄▄███████▄▄     ▄▀█
█  ▀▄ ▄▀ ▀███████▀ ▀▄ ▄▀  █
▀█   █     ▀███▀     ▀▄  █▀
▀█▄▄█▄      █        █▄█▀
▀█████▄ ▄▀▀ ▀▀▄▄ ▄▄███▀
▀█████        ████▀
▀▀█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█▀▀



● OVER 1000000000 REKT PLEBS
● DAILY PARLAYS, ACCAS, SINGLES AND BOASTING
● BONUS HUNTING & VIP PICKS
● 24/7 LIVE TROLL BOX
● SCAM TOUTS ROASTED LIVE
 
brekyrself
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 547
Merit: 502


View Profile
September 30, 2014, 05:36:12 PM
 #189

Quote
You are ignoring your own vested interest...
No, im not promoting anything in this thread but you are, of course everyone has a vested interest and I am pointing out what yours is, is that bad or wrong? Hell it should even show how commited you are to the BTSX tribe.  I would asume that you could tell us how much the VC company makes from all this since you are a delagte, guess not.

Quote
and your request for me to give a disclaimer with every post is unreasonable.
Hi,
When and where did I request you to do that?


Quote
anyone can be a delegate
anyone can run for president


sounds legit


Clearly from these comments you do not understand the role of a delegate...  Why would a random delegate/miner know how much some VC company made or makes based upon their initial investment?  Your the one that has done zero due diligence all the while CoinHoarder is trying to explain things the best he can. 

Please bring some technical talk to the table and quit with the opinions.
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
September 30, 2014, 05:44:26 PM
 #190

Quote
You are ignoring your own vested interest...
No, im not promoting anything in this thread but you are, of course everyone has a vested interest and I am pointing out what yours is, is that bad or wrong? Hell it should even show how commited you are to the BTSX tribe.  I would asume that you could tell us how much the VC company makes from all this since you are a delagte, guess not.

Quote
and your request for me to give a disclaimer with every post is unreasonable.
Hi,
When and where did I request you to do that?


Quote
anyone can be a delegate
anyone can run for president


sounds legit


I will respond to your previous post, including the VC question, give me more time as your post is long, my laptop is broken (dead charger I think) and I am on an iPad, and I have been doing other things/answering other questions.

You are using the term delegate as a derogatory term which, according to you, affects my credibility meanwhile throwing in subtle jabs at BTSX, BTSX marketing, me, and the people behind it. Meanwhile I am here offering my honest interpretation of the technology and my honest opinions, you are acting as if I'm not. If you want to talk about the technology then let's do it, but you are being hostile towards everything having to do with BTSX and it is getting old fast.

I am not selling anything more so than you are trying to discredit it. You don't think vested interest ever plays a part in discrediting something or the people that support that thing? Maybe you should enlighten us on your vested interest so things are clear? Everyone already knows mine as I have been talking about Bitshares for months now, and it is the reason I don't need to explain it with every post. You state you don't need to share your vested interest as you are not selling anything, but you certainly are attacking something in which vested interest plays into your mindset and tact at least a little bit.

A delegate doesn't have any more or less vested interest than an owner of X coin, developer of Y coin, or a miner of Z coin as I said. You make it seem as if I am some powerful being, but in reality I have just as much say as anyone in the Bitshares community and can be voted out at any time as I own very little stake in it. I just believe in the technology. If you look through my posting history, historically I talk about and stick up for things I believe in, and Bitshares is one of those things.
krach
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1853
Merit: 1008


Get Rekt


View Profile WWW
September 30, 2014, 06:43:31 PM
 #191

Quote
Clearly from these comments you do not understand the role of a delegate...  Why would a random delegate/miner know how much some VC company made or makes based upon their initial investment?  Your the one that has done zero due diligence all the while CoinHoarder is trying to explain things the best he can.

Please bring some technical talk to the table and quit with the opinions.

It is called a retorical question, the thing is we nor a delgate has this info, it seems.

I have brought plenty of technical talk. Asking questions are not opinions. Please tell me what opinions you are speaking of.


Quote
You are using the term delegate as a derogatory term which, according to you, affects my credibility meanwhile throwing in subtle jabs at BTSX, BTSX marketing, me, and the people behind it.

I am not using it as a derogatory term, I am merly pointing out that you are in fact a delegate. If pointing out issues with BTSX, or the marketing behind it is "taking jabs" then that is fine. I am in no way attacking you as a person or the people behind "it", would this include quotes from the bitsharestalk forum "crypto masters" "bitcoin killer" ect? Are you trying to say that a delgete is the exact same as some ave joe that read the btsx marking material and wants to have their own ft. knox as advertised?
As you said these posts are part of :
Quote
That is actually part of my delegate campaign, to help new users and defend BTSX from FUD
Not just as a holder but part of your campaign.

Quote
I am not selling anything more so than you are trying to discredit it.
Im not trying to "discredit" anything, what does that mean anyway? Poinitng out that a dervitive is in fact not the same as a real asset? That no, you can not do everything with a derivitive as you can with the real asset. Agreeing with you on many points. Saying that the BTSX platform can be useful for derivitives, or issuing shares of a company. Saying that the tech behind BTSX is quite interesting. That you can not hold bitcoin in bitsharesX. That when you want to "cash out" into USD then you have the same coutnerparty risk as with any other coin. That you or anyone else can not find how the VC funding company is profiting from bitsharesX, this is "discredit"?
Quote
A delegate doesn't have any more or less vested interest than an owner of X coin, developer of Y coin, or a miner of Z coin as I said. You make it seem as if I am some powerful being, but in reality I have just as much say as anyone in the Bitshares community and can be voted out at any time as I own very little stake in it.
So you dont get paid as a delegate, right? How is owning very little stake related to being voted out?




[color=#00██ ████ ████



▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄
█  ▄▀▄             █▀▀▐▀▄▄
█  █▀█             █  ▐  ▐▌
█       ▄██▄       █  ▌  █
█     ▄██████▄     █  ▌ ▐▌
█    ██████████    █ ▐  █
█   ▐██████████▌   █ ▐ ▐▌
█    ▀▀██████▀▀    █ ▌ █
█     ▄▄▄██▄▄▄     █ ▌▐▌
█                  █▐ █
█                  █▐▐▌
█                  █▐█
▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀█

▄▄█████████▄▄
▄█▀▀▀█████████▀▀▀█▄
▄█▀    ▄▀█████▀     ▀█▄
▄█▄    █        ▀▄   ███▄
▄████▀▀▀▀▄       ▄▀▀▀▀▀███▄
████      ▀▄▄▄▄▄▀       ███
███     ▄▄███████▄▄     ▄▀█
█  ▀▄ ▄▀ ▀███████▀ ▀▄ ▄▀  █
▀█   █     ▀███▀     ▀▄  █▀
▀█▄▄█▄      █        █▄█▀
▀█████▄ ▄▀▀ ▀▀▄▄ ▄▄███▀
▀█████        ████▀
▀▀█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█▀▀



● OVER 1000000000 REKT PLEBS
● DAILY PARLAYS, ACCAS, SINGLES AND BOASTING
● BONUS HUNTING & VIP PICKS
● 24/7 LIVE TROLL BOX
● SCAM TOUTS ROASTED LIVE
 
NewLiberty
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1204
Merit: 1001


Gresham's Lawyer


View Profile WWW
September 30, 2014, 07:09:17 PM
 #192

After thinking about it more, selling BTSX for a Bitasset does technically create downward pressure on the BTSX market and upward pressure on the Bitasset market, however I think that downward pressure on BTSX is negligible.

I'll drop the wash sale issue for now, but for US/EU it would be something to look at.  (The same thing happens if you sell a Gold ETF and use the money to buy physical gold.)

For the "diversify" issue, please allow my attempt to make it simpler, and tell me if you think I am wrong?

Quote
Selling the BTSX for a Bitasset is selling into what might be presumed as a strong hand as the buyer/asset creater is required to hold sufficient BTSX to back the Bitasset (2X value of the Bitasset).  Downward pressure is created in the BTSX price by the sale, and upward pressure (2x) is created by the backing requirement.


It may be an unintended consequence, but the market effects of this would also seem to create a complexity risk with every Bitasset created and every Bitasset purchased for BTSX.  All asset creators are required to maintain the backing value for their assets, thus bidding the price of BTSX back up (and draining them of fiat) when BTSX is sold for a Bitasset.  The counterparty solvency risk gets further compounded with each asset created and again with each asset sold.

This system could benefit from some anti-fragility.  It appears there may be some possible economic disruption risks.  You will need very wealthy asset creators, none of whom may become insolvent, for they could be drained of their wealth to support the BTSX price by a more wealthy market player who already has a 2x advantage due to the backing requirement enforced.

I can't say that it would ever happen, but it would seem that there could be some nasty waves that may overturn some boats (followed by some feeding frenzy), if something big were ever to breach water in the pond. 

It seems a decent system, but would have to run it through some game theory analysis to work out if the vulnerability here matters.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
September 30, 2014, 08:09:07 PM
 #193

Quote
First of all you keep bringing up everywhere I am a Delegate as if it brings more credibility to your statements and less to mine and that is silly.
No it is not silly, just come out and say that you are a delegate from the get go, it is silly to let people know that you are a delegate?
Quote
. It is like saying that you are a Bitcoin user, so all of your opinions are worthless because you want them to go up in value.
A bitcoin user is the same as being a delegate? No, that is silly.
Quote
Why don't you inform us of your cryptocurrency holdings so we can know which statements of yours we can ignore using the same logic?

Again being a delegate is different than being a simply "holder" of a currency.

It is technically different, but you are ASSUMING that I have more of a vested interest in BTSX than holders of BTSX which is false as you don't know my personal situation. In actuality I own less thank 10k BTSX and am a little fish in a small pond considering they are worth something like 3.5 cents each and the market cap is something like 65 million dollars. Since we are assuming things, I can assume you have more vested interest in whatever cryptocurrency you hold than I have in my measly amount of BTSX. Just as easily as others voted me in as a delegate, I could get voted out. I own very little stake so in actuality I have little to gain from converting people to users of BTSX.

Quote
You are basically saying if you use or invest in something you lose your ability to rationalize reality, however I actually have the ability to admit when I am wrong and am here giving my honest and genuine opinions on different issues. BitsharesX is still rather new and it is basically the only alt coin I care about, so I have spent most of my time talking about it and helping others understand it. I am sorry if this upsets you, but it is a free world and luckily Theymos is not a nazi.
No, I am simply pointing out common misconceptions about bitsharesX, there is no need for Ft. Knox because nothing would be in there anyway except bitsharesX.
Quote
That is actually part of my delegate campaign, to help new users and defend BTSX from FUD
Pointing out big markeing statements and that saying "hold bitcoin in bitsharesX" has nothing to do with a bitcoin private key is FUD I guess. Make sure to include the word "nazi" in your campaign it is  great way to attack people that do not agree with you, bonus points for you!
It is not a marketing statement. Holding bitBTC is similar to holding real BTC if all you are doing is speculating on it or trading it. Sure, there are fundamental differences and Bitassets do not have all the utility of their real counterparts but that is not what I am referring to when I say holding bitBTC is like holding BTC, and I have already admitted that. It is similar if all you are doing with it is hodling or day trading as it has almost the exact same value. Yes there are some risks involved with Bitassets rather than the actual assets themselves, but that is just common sense. Should I explain that I am using a keyboard to type this message and I am breathing air right now to stay alive too?

Quote
I don't understand why you hate BitsharesX so much.

I dont, primarly I find the marketing misleading and not one person can explain how the VC company that funded the project makes any money, delegate please explain that,why is this contract not embeded in the bitsharesX blockchian or anything similar?
You are failing to understand that although BTSX resembles a cryptocurrency it is a company. It makes decisions based on making the company more profitable, and part of that is through marketing. BTSX doesn't market itself any differently from any other company.

There are many people that make misleading claims in Bitcoin marketing, yet you still support it? IE. No transaction fees! Instant transactions! It's deflationary! These are all partially true statements, but misleading none the less. Many cryptocurrencies use similar marketing schemes and yet you are singling out BTSX for doing something that is being done on a wide scale.

The VC firm invested money on equal fitting as everyone else that invested into AGS and PTS before the snapshot, which the original BTSX stake was dispersed on. Other than possibly having more money to invest (I don't know specifics), they had no competitive advantage over anyone else. This is part of the FUD I am talking about. VCs and hedge funds are investing into BTC too, yet here you are again singling out BTSX for things that are happening in Bitcoin and other cryptos.

BotsharesX is a fun project, your own M1A1, a bitcoin killer, trade potato chipsX, or even bitDIRT! Real world derivatives!
It seems to me it is making a jab at BTSX by making fun of it. Also M1A1, potato chips, and dirt would be Impossible to make into Bitassets as there is no readily available worldwide prices for them. Prices vary from brand to brand, market to market, country to country. It is more than a fun project, it is redo cultus and thus it seems like you are trying to say BTSX is rediculous, which it is not nearly as rediculous as Botshares.

Quote
I fail to see the difference if you are keeping your cryptocoins and commodities as investments for long periods of time, or are day trading them.
You do not have a private key and you are not/ can not run a full node of the coin in question. A very big difference. Having a copy of the blockchain of said coin is fundimental. bitBTC or bit(insert GOLD LITECOIN or anything else) are derivatives, it is like saying gold bullion and gold derivatives are the same, no difference. I disagree.
The point is you don't need a private key, or to run a full node, to speculate on Bitcoin or day trade it. bitUSD resembles the true value of Bitcoin and that is the only important thing when speculating.

A derivative and an asset is not the same thing (again common sense that I didn't feel the need to explain.. you are nit picking) but in the way I am describing its use it is practically the same thing. A derivative can serve the same purpose as an asset if all someone is doing is trading, holding, or speculating. Again, there is added risk but this is common sense.. I don't see why I need to explain things that are common sense as we are all intelligent enough to be involved in cryptos.

Quote
If you wanted to, you could cash them out to BTSX at any time and convert them into anything you like.
Yes, this is exactly what I stated.
Guess what? When you want to cash them out to get USD then you have counterparty risk, as with any other coin.
So in the end your bitGold can only be cashed out for BTSX then you figure out what to do with the BTSX, to get gold you would need to sell btsx at an exchnage for USD and then buy gold with USD somewhere. These are derivatives that promote holding by paying dividends, in .... BTSX.
I prefer to explain things in plain English. I don't think many people that don't have an investment background don't know what a derivative is, and that is why I hardly use this terminology. I know before learning about BitsharesX I personally didn't know what a derivative is. You are alluding to this being some kind of common knowledge. The easiest to understand explanation to me is Bitassets being market pegged assets that are of equal value to their real life counterparts. Again, plain English...

Quote
you could do anything with Bitassets that you could do with Bitcoin if you wanted.
I disagree again, I can not look up anything in the bitcoin blockchain in my client with bitBTC, I have not tried maybe you can tell us if you can.
If you are speculating, trading, or holding you don't need to look anything up on the block chain. All you need is your trade history and transaction history for BTSX and the Bitassets, which are contained in your wallet in BTSX including a block explorer built into the client. Again, you are nitpicking and the points you are making are common sense.

With a little counterparts risk and the proper infrastructure, you can do anything with bitBTC and Bitcoin's which is what I was alluding to. I explained this earlier that it would require the infrastructure to be developed to become a true statement. You deleted the part of my quote where I added that caviar and it is what started this whole derivative vs real asset nonsense, which is again common sense.

Quote
I just think there is more counterparty risk using centralized exchanges and services. Over the years how many of them have scammed customers, been "hacked", or defaulted? A lot of them..

I agree, however you still have this risk when exiting the BTSX system for the "real world" asset that the derivatives represent if you choose to do so. The reply "why would you want to" which is another question all together.
There is no reason to exit the BTSX ecosystem if you are day trading, holding, or speculating. This is a moot point in regards to the point I am making. Sure, they don't have all of the utility of the real asset (again common sense), but they serve certain purposes well.

Quote
Of course there are risks, just like any other cryptocurrency, I thought there being some risk is implied. It is that I think there is less risk trading bitassets than trading on centralized services as to why I say things like this.
The risk is that the whole system colapses due to a crash, manipulation/collusion of delegates. Of course both are quote "unlikely" at this stage in general they are both totaly dismissed.  
Yes they are unlikely but do exist. After learning about how the system works the risks are again common sense. Although, I think collusion/manipulation from delegates is much more unlikely than the system collapsing due to a crash. They have incentive to do their job right as they are getting paid for it. If they don't then they can get voted out if they act improperly.

Maybe I am naive, but I think a 97% crash is unlikely as well. Especially seeing as though if someone thinks a bubble is coming there is no reason to get out of BTSX when they can get into bitFIAT which doesn't affect the market cap of BTSX and thus limits the amplitude of a bubble as money doesn't exit out of the Ecosystem. There are only specific reasons of exiting the ecosystem and a bubble isn't one of them. Once BTSX holders learn that it is in their best interest to go into bitFIAT rather than exiting the ecosystem all together if they think a bubble is near, the whole system will be better off for it and retain its value better than most cryptocurrencies. Also, the fact it uses DPoS which is an insanely cheap way to secure the network helps with this too, whereas with PoW maintaining the network is very expensive and there is a cost of that and price implications. If the miners sell the coins they are mining to pay for expenses, which they mostly do, then it requires the inflow of new money to retain its price.

The only way I see a total price collapse is if there is some bug or error in the software that causes a collapse of confidence in the protocol overnight. Again, maybe I am naive but it has been in beta testing and out in the wild for a while now. As time goes on and bugs are fixed, the less likely this is to happen over time.

Also, BTSX conveys risks better than any cryptocurrency as there is a ToS that people must accept to use the software. Even Bitcoin doesn't convey the risks as specifically and thoroughly as Bitshares does in its ToS. If people don't read the ToS it is not BitsharesX's fault.

Quote
In the event that a bubble does occur, people can diversify into bitFIAT to reduce the amplitude of the bubble and reduce your exposure, and that is unlike any other cryptocurrency where you would need to actually sell them to reduce exposure which creates downward pressure on the market. Hedging against bubbles while not putting any downward pressure on BTSX is one of its greatest features. Downward pressure really only needs to occur when you would like to exit the Bitshares ecosystem, as you have already mentioned.

Yep, the bubble continues to fly as long as no helium exits.

Exactly, except at that point you probably couldn't call it a bubble if it never pops. If shareholders (stakeholders) act in their own best interest by buying bitFIAT when they think a bubble might occurs, then no money ever exits the system unless they want to purchase something, diversify, or exit the ecosystem all together.

Quote
I don't think anyone should invest more than they are comfortable losing in any asset, currency, or commodity and I apologize if I made it seem that way.
BTSX is marketed as the most stable thing ever, it is misleading.
People that blindly believe in marketing speech without doing their own research deserve to lose all of their money, and they will certainly do so. This is just smart investing and maybe people will need to learn a lesson or two before realizing this, but this kind of marketing talk is happening everywhere, including in Bitcoin. You are again singling out Bitshares for something every coin and business does.

Quote
. Again, I thought this was common sense but apparently you want me to say it every time I talk about BTSX? Looking through your posts it doesn't seem as if you state other cryptocurrencies are risky with every post you make on them, so I am not sure why you are requesting I do something you don't even do yourself?


Hi,
Im not promoting any coin, you are. Therefore there is not the same standard that you imply. I would hope it would be common sense that a delgate should be held to a different standard when out promoting the project- coin 2.0 thingie or whatever you want to call it. When I do post or talk about trading I always tell people to do thier own due dilligance ,as a minimum. Your position as a delegate is similar to being in a higher level of a company, it would be great if you had just come out with that while speaking about BTSX that is simply more transparent. Attacking the messenger is an interesting tactic but doest zero to move the discussion along, it in fact distracts from the main topic. Even if I did not inform people of risk when doing anything remotely like give advice on a coin , would that affect or apply to what you are doing? No.

Whatever.. I am done with this discussion as to delegate or not, as I said it is silly. You have special interest here too in attacking BitsharesX whether you would like to admit it or not. I'm not going to tattoo BitsharesX delegate on my forehead, sorry.

Quote
your own personal ft. knox

Ft. Knox is suppost to be full of physical assets, bitsharesX has zero to do with physical assets.
Again common sense, attacking BTSX for something every coin and company does. At least there is collateral for the assets unlike in a bank or holding FIAT.

Quote
Imagine all the properties that make Bitcoin so revolutionary combined with the price stability of the dollar. This is bitUSD, the first truly stable crypto-currency and only available on BitSharesX.

No risk , totaly stable, just ask risky as holding USD
Again common sense, attacking BTSX for something every coin and company does. At least there is collateral for the assets unlike in a bank or holding FIAT.

Another issue is that bitsharesX community members see themselves as , and I quote: "Crypto Masters"

You see I like the tech behind bitshares, but this kind of attitude I dont like.
Lol, this is all in your mind and your intense hatred of BitsharesX and everything involved with it. Everyone likes to think they are right, and you are judging a technology by its users which is stupid. Do you judge Bitcoin by all its Zealots and every other coin as well? Along with their marketing material... Everyone is trying to sell themselves in this speculators market that is cryptocoins. BTSX and it's user base is no different than any other in these regards, and you are stereotyping a whole community and coin based on the actions of a few people.

So delegate, please tell us how does
BitFund.PE
make money with this whole thing?
Is the contract somewhere embeded in the bitshares blockchain ,if not, why not?
They invested in AGS/PTS just like every other genesis stake holder. They had no extra benefit other than having more capital to invest in that most. Again, there are hedge funds/VCs getting into Bitcoin and this is no different as they have equal footing as any other averadge joe. Again, here you are singling out BTSX for something that is happening in the larger coins as well.. Bitcoin, Ripple, Litecoin, etc....

There is no contract because there is none needed. They have as much control and stake in the company as the amount of money or mining power to PTS they provided, in relation to amount that everyone else put in. You act like this is a horrible thing that someone should get an equal amount of stake proportional to the amount of capital or work (in regards to mining PTS) they put in.


Call derivatives, derivatives

crypto derivatives

if people want to trade derivatives, then it is a good platform.

However if you want the real coin or other asset (bitPotatoschips ect)
then it is not suitable.

Holding phyiscal assets (metals, land ect) has merit and is true diverisvication, since there is zero exposure to crypto.

Trading derivatives also has merit but should not be sold as a subsuite for holding a bitcoin private key or any other asset, you can not do the same things with a derivative as with the real asset.

I dont hate bitsharesX , im not following you, you just happen to pop up in the forum in 2 main sections. I would have never replied if you had not said that you can hold bitcoin in bitsharesX which to me is very misleading.
Again, this is all common sense as to the utility and risks of Bitassets once learning how the system works. I prefer to not assume I am talking to mentally challenged people on here, as I think everyone seems generally smart enough to understand there are risks and a Bitasset is not the same thing as a real asset. I personally did not know what a derivative is before learning what Bitassets are, so I prefer to not use that terminology meanwhile explaining derivatives in layman terms. I don't think many people know what Derivatives mean if they don't have a lot of experience in different types on investments. I am not rich and I don't have a ton of money to do a ton of different types of invest, and I assume I am talking to the 99% here rather than the 1% that know all about derivatives.
Zer0Sum
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1590
Merit: 1000


View Profile
September 30, 2014, 08:42:55 PM
 #194

Technically, all Bitassets are backed by BTSX, so you could look at it as not being a new investment, but I could also see it being the other way and admittedly no one really knows possible tax implications as the technology is still pretty new.

There are some opposing opinions floating around about what (if any) taxes will apply when trading Bitassets. It makes sense to me that it would not be a taxable event until you spend the bitassets on goods or services or cash them out into real FIAT and realize capital gains as trading...

The IRS has actually made all this pretty clear...
It's not complicated... and random "opinions" are irrelevant.

IRS:  "virtual currency is treated as PROPERTY for U.S. federal tax purposes" (also assets, I'm sure)

IRS: "the character of gain or loss from the sale or exchange of virtual currency depends
on whether the virtual currency is a capital asset in the hands of the taxpayer."

All gains from virtual currency/assets are taxable...
(a) if you are a long-term investor it will likely be viewed as a capital asset...
(b) if you are a trader/speculator everything is pure income, but you can deduct office expenses, etc

The nightmare will be documenting your activities...
Based on unregulated records from shady Third World crypto exchanges...
And info received from ANON issuers and sources will simply go in the garbage.

The IRS will be totally screwing people over based on "inadequate record-keeping"...
So you may as well not bother reporting your crypto activities.

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Newsroom/IRS-Virtual-Currency-Guidance
krach
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1853
Merit: 1008


Get Rekt


View Profile WWW
September 30, 2014, 09:16:35 PM
 #195

Quote
It is technically different, but you are ASSUMING that I have more of a vested interest in BTSX than holders of BTSX which is false as you don't know my personal situation.
True I do not. Are delegates not paid for their delagate work? This is another difference.
Quote
what I am referring to when I say holding bitBTC is like holding BTC, and I have already admitted that.
Great that you admited that,  first you just said that you can hold btc in bitsharesX and for people that are not experts in dertivitaves and use simple english that you want to use, hold is hold.
Quote
Yes there are some risks involved with Bitassets rather than the actual assets themselves, but that is just common sense. Should I explain that I am using a keyboard to type this message and I am breathing air right now to stay alive too?
No, the topic is bitUSD and BTSX not air, yes there are risks I agree.

Quote
You are failing to understand that although BTSX resembles a cryptocurrency it is a company.
No I am not, I just thought that maybe you would have more insight into the VC investment structure and could share that info with us.

Quote
It makes decisions based on making the company more profitable, and part of that is through marketing. BTSX doesn't market itself any differently from any other company.
Yep that is what I am saying and that is exactly what I said, markting just like any other company, I agree.

Quote
There are many people that make misleading claims in Bitcoin marketing, yet you still support it? IE. No transaction fees! Instant transactions! It's deflationary! These are all partially true statements, but misleading none the less. Many cryptocurrencies use similar marketing schemes and yet you are singling out BTSX for doing something that is being done on a wide scale.
We are not talking about bitcoin, we are talking about BTSX, im also sure that you or others do not approve of every marketing attempt from the BTSX community.
Quote
Many cryptocurrencies use similar marketing schemes and yet you are singling out BTSX for doing something that is being done on a wide scale.
No that is inncorrect, I am speaking about BTSX here and not about Dark5.2 or HyperShare5000 or whatever the latest coin is with misleading marketing. It is not singled out in a thread about coins in general, therefore it is not singled out among other coins.
Quote
The VC firm invested money on equal fitting as everyone else that invested into AGS and PTS before the snapshot, which the original BTSX stake was dispersed on. Other than possibly having more money to invest (I don't know specifics), they had no competitive advantage over anyone else. This is part of the FUD I am talking about. VCs and hedge funds are investing into BTC too, yet here you are again singling out BTSX for things that are happening in Bitcoin and other cryptos.
Great that is interesting, I guess simply asking is FUD, again we are not speaking of BTC and allthough VCs and hedges invest in to BTC it is not structured the same, as you stated already, and they were not there from the start, therefore it is different.

Quote
t seems to me it is making a jab at BTSX by making fun of it. Also M1A1, potato chips, and dirt would be Impossible to make into Bitassets as there is no readily available worldwide prices for them. Prices vary from brand to brand, market to market, country to country. It is more than a fun project, it is redo cultus and thus it seems like you are trying to say BTSX is rediculous, which it is not nearly as rediculous as Botshares.

Yes I find a lot of it rediculous. You can find a price for a new M1A1 and you can get an average price for potatochips and yes botsharesX is also rediculous.

Quote
The point is you don't need a private key, or to run a full node, to speculate on Bitcoin or day trade it
Yes that is true, however you said that you can do the same things with bitBTC as with BTC and that is not true.

Quote
There is no reason to exit the BTSX ecosystem if you are day trading, holding, or speculating. This is a moot point in regards to the point I am making. Sure, they don't have all of the utility of the real asset (again common sense), but they serve certain purposes well.
You might need to take profit and use USD in the real world. Then you have to exit, and you have counterparty risk as with all other crypto. I also admit and have said that derivitives have merit ie, utlitiy.
Quote
I prefer to explain things in plain English. I don't think many people that don't have an investment background don't know what a derivative is, and that is why I hardly use this terminology. I know before learning about BitsharesX I personally didn't know what a derivative is. You are alluding to this being some kind of common knowledge. The easiest to understand explanation to me is Bitassets being market pegged assets that are of equal value to their real life counterparts. Again, plain English...
"market pegged assets" is plain English? Ok great if you say so.
You are alluding that people can easily understand those three words, rather than one commonly used word, which is pertty damn plain English.


Quote
Also, BTSX conveys risks better than any cryptocurrency as there is a ToS that people must accept to use the software
Oh that is good, probaly have to do that if you are a company.
Quote
Exactly, except at that point you probably couldn't call it a bubble if it never pops. If shareholders (stakeholders) act in their own best interest by buying bitFIAT when they think a bubble might occurs, then no money ever exits the system unless they want to purchase something, diversify, or exit the ecosystem all together.
True, if you want to purchase something you have to exit the ecosystem.


Quote
your own personal ft. knox

Ft. Knox is suppost to be full of physical assets, bitsharesX has zero to do with physical assets.
Again common sense, attacking BTSX for something every coin and company does. At least there is collateral for the assets unlike in a bank or holding FIAT.

So it is common sense to assume that BTSX marketing is misleading, im not talking about other coins or companies.


Quote
Lol, this is all in your mind and your intense hatred of BitsharesX and everything involved with it. Everyone likes to think they are right, and you are judging a technology by its users which is stupid. Do you judge Bitcoin by all its Zealots and every other coin as well? Along with their marketing material... Everyone is trying to sell themselves in this speculators market that is cryptocoins. BTSX and it's user base is no different than any other in these regards, and you are stereotyping a whole community and coin based on the actions of a few people.

Yep same ol same ol, exactly what I was saying. Im not juding the technology, I seperated them, you see I said I like the tech not the tribalistic "crypto masters" theme. You want to deny that this is a major topic in the BTSX forum or here? "bitsharesX takes down Bitcoin" ect? Ahhh its ok becuase everyone else does it, got it. Do you really think that if I had "intense hatred" I would say "this part is good" "this part is bad" ?


Quote
I assume I am talking to the 99% here rather than the 1% that know all about derivatives.

Guess what, derivatives are very usefull for the small guy, they allow you to take positions without having huge ammounts of capital. So your assumtion that only the 1% use or know about derivatives is innocorrect. This is one of the merits of deriviatives.





[color=#00██ ████ ████



▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄
█  ▄▀▄             █▀▀▐▀▄▄
█  █▀█             █  ▐  ▐▌
█       ▄██▄       █  ▌  █
█     ▄██████▄     █  ▌ ▐▌
█    ██████████    █ ▐  █
█   ▐██████████▌   █ ▐ ▐▌
█    ▀▀██████▀▀    █ ▌ █
█     ▄▄▄██▄▄▄     █ ▌▐▌
█                  █▐ █
█                  █▐▐▌
█                  █▐█
▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀█

▄▄█████████▄▄
▄█▀▀▀█████████▀▀▀█▄
▄█▀    ▄▀█████▀     ▀█▄
▄█▄    █        ▀▄   ███▄
▄████▀▀▀▀▄       ▄▀▀▀▀▀███▄
████      ▀▄▄▄▄▄▀       ███
███     ▄▄███████▄▄     ▄▀█
█  ▀▄ ▄▀ ▀███████▀ ▀▄ ▄▀  █
▀█   █     ▀███▀     ▀▄  █▀
▀█▄▄█▄      █        █▄█▀
▀█████▄ ▄▀▀ ▀▀▄▄ ▄▄███▀
▀█████        ████▀
▀▀█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█▀▀



● OVER 1000000000 REKT PLEBS
● DAILY PARLAYS, ACCAS, SINGLES AND BOASTING
● BONUS HUNTING & VIP PICKS
● 24/7 LIVE TROLL BOX
● SCAM TOUTS ROASTED LIVE
 
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
September 30, 2014, 10:15:25 PM
 #196

After thinking about it more, selling BTSX for a Bitasset does technically create downward pressure on the BTSX market and upward pressure on the Bitasset market, however I think that downward pressure on BTSX is negligible.

I'll drop the wash sale issue for now, but for US/EU it would be something to look at.  (The same thing happens if you sell a Gold ETF and use the money to buy physical gold.)

For the "diversify" issue, please allow my attempt to make it simpler, and tell me if you think I am wrong?

Quote
Selling the BTSX for a Bitasset is selling into what might be presumed as a strong hand as the buyer/asset creater is required to hold sufficient BTSX to back the Bitasset (2X value of the Bitasset).  Downward pressure is created in the BTSX price by the sale, and upward pressure (2x) is created by the backing requirement.


It may be an unintended consequence, but the market effects of this would also seem to create a complexity risk with every Bitasset created and every Bitasset purchased for BTSX.  All asset creators are required to maintain the backing value for their assets, thus bidding the price of BTSX back up (and draining them of fiat) when BTSX is sold for a Bitasset.  The counterparty solvency risk gets further compounded with each asset created and again with each asset sold.

This system could benefit from some anti-fragility.  It appears there may be some possible economic disruption risks.  You will need very wealthy asset creators, none of whom may become insolvent, for they could be drained of their wealth to support the BTSX price by a more wealthy market player who already has a 2x advantage due to the backing requirement enforced.

I can't say that it would ever happen, but it would seem that there could be some nasty waves that may overturn some boats (followed by some feeding frenzy), if something big were ever to breach water in the pond.  

It seems a decent system, but would have to run it through some game theory analysis to work out if the vulnerability here matters.

You should come to our forums and ask BM about this. He is probably the most knowledgable in the BTSX community when it comes to the economics and dynamics of trading of Bitassets. I am sure that this has probably been discussed somewhere, but the way you describe it I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Admittedly I am not super knowledgable on exactly how everything works, but I get the general idea of how everything functions. Maybe the way I explained it was wrong, but it is certainly not my intent to deceive... I only say that because it makes sense to me.

I like to say that it is as close to a decentralized free market solution that exists when it comes to decentralized market pegged assets (for Krach: derivatives). It is as free of a free market approach as possible, with rules (or regulations if you want to call them that) in place so the Bitassets maintain the true value of their real life counterparts. I am not privy to all of the rules as they have changed a lot since BTSX launched, but I do know there are a lot of them to stop random things from happening that could disrupt the market. Such as not allowing for someone to go short under 10% of a price feed which is updated by delegates that updates the real value of the assets. A good explanation I've heard is that it is like a free market with training wheels. When BTSX first launched there were very little rules as to trading and the market peg was as much as 10% to 15% off at certain point in time. Through all the updates new rules have been applied to protect users from possible attack vectors and maintain the market peg which I believe is trading at about a 99.5% accuracy currently.

What you are saying is that someone wealthy could come could come in and crash the price, forcing a large wave of margin calls for the shorts, and causing the Bitassets to become under collateralized due to the shorts running out of capital or lowering demand for people to go short in a huge crash? If that is what you are talking about, then I think this is a possibility and a common vulnerability people bring up. If you would like to read more about it then Preston Byrne's blog series is a good place to start about vulnerabilities of the market system. Daniel (Bytemaster), the lead dev responds in the comments to some of the blog postings and it makes for interesting reading material. Krach can't hold a candle to this guys blogs. Smiley  http://prestonbyrne.com/category/bitmarmot/
NewLiberty
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1204
Merit: 1001


Gresham's Lawyer


View Profile WWW
October 01, 2014, 12:34:37 AM
 #197

Thanks for that, looks like I have some reading ahead of me.
Very curious about all this.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
krach
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1853
Merit: 1008


Get Rekt


View Profile WWW
October 01, 2014, 04:27:04 PM
Last edit: October 01, 2014, 04:51:51 PM by krach
 #198

Nice, still attacking the person and not the message, as was done in response to the mentioned blog.

http://en.lmgtfy.com/?q=pegged+asset#
http://en.lmgtfy.com/?q=Derivatives#

Allthough google is only one tool, if "pegged assets" was such a plain English term, it typicaly would have more results coming from many sources and not primarly from bitsharesX sites.




Quote
The technology is interesting, but the structure is flawed: speaking objectively, BTSX/BitAssets cannot provably do what the marketing material claims it can do. I think you have an obligation, at the very least, to make this point abundantly clear to everyone who is about to throw money at it.
http://prestonbyrne.com/category/bitmarmot/


[color=#00██ ████ ████



▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄
█  ▄▀▄             █▀▀▐▀▄▄
█  █▀█             █  ▐  ▐▌
█       ▄██▄       █  ▌  █
█     ▄██████▄     █  ▌ ▐▌
█    ██████████    █ ▐  █
█   ▐██████████▌   █ ▐ ▐▌
█    ▀▀██████▀▀    █ ▌ █
█     ▄▄▄██▄▄▄     █ ▌▐▌
█                  █▐ █
█                  █▐▐▌
█                  █▐█
▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀█

▄▄█████████▄▄
▄█▀▀▀█████████▀▀▀█▄
▄█▀    ▄▀█████▀     ▀█▄
▄█▄    █        ▀▄   ███▄
▄████▀▀▀▀▄       ▄▀▀▀▀▀███▄
████      ▀▄▄▄▄▄▀       ███
███     ▄▄███████▄▄     ▄▀█
█  ▀▄ ▄▀ ▀███████▀ ▀▄ ▄▀  █
▀█   █     ▀███▀     ▀▄  █▀
▀█▄▄█▄      █        █▄█▀
▀█████▄ ▄▀▀ ▀▀▄▄ ▄▄███▀
▀█████        ████▀
▀▀█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█▀▀



● OVER 1000000000 REKT PLEBS
● DAILY PARLAYS, ACCAS, SINGLES AND BOASTING
● BONUS HUNTING & VIP PICKS
● 24/7 LIVE TROLL BOX
● SCAM TOUTS ROASTED LIVE
 
brekyrself
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 547
Merit: 502


View Profile
October 01, 2014, 04:57:01 PM
 #199



Quote
The technology is interesting, but the structure is flawed: speaking objectively, BTSX/BitAssets cannot provably do what the marketing material claims it can do. I think you have an obligation, at the very least, to make this point abundantly clear to everyone who is about to throw money at it.
http://prestonbyrne.com/category/bitmarmot/




You speak of due diligence yet quote some blogger?  How difficult is it for you to simply type www.bitsharestalk.org and visit a few threads that show up the date non biased information on how the pegs and plans are working out?  That article you posted is a month old from a blogger who constantly has very emotional articles to gain attention.


New market rules being tested on a dry run
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9521.0

Updated delegate pay model which you should read over
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9452.0

If your so sure the market is broken here is a quick 1k bounty for you to claim
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9506.0


Also nice to see Daniel Larimer and Patrick M. Byrne as keynote speakers at Inside Bitcoins.  http://insidebitcoins.com/las-vegas
krach
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1853
Merit: 1008


Get Rekt


View Profile WWW
October 01, 2014, 05:18:34 PM
Last edit: October 01, 2014, 05:43:01 PM by krach
 #200

Quote
You speak of due diligence yet quote some blogger?  How difficult is it for you to simply type www.bitsharestalk.org and visit a few threads that show up the date non biased information on how the pegs and plans are working out?  That article you posted is a month old from a blogger who constantly has very emotional articles to gain attention.


New market rules being tested on a dry run
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9521.0

Updated delegate pay model which you should read over
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9452.0

If your so sure the market is broken here is a quick 1k bounty for you to claim
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9506.0


Also nice to see Daniel Larimer and Patrick M. Byrne as keynote speakers at Inside Bitcoins.  http://insidebitcoins.com/las-vegas

Hi,
I have seen Daniel Larimer live in person present bitsharesX, also I am registered at bitsharestalk. I asked the marketing manager ,in person, "How does bitUSD have value?" But he could not really give me an answer, however he is in charge of marketing so why should he be able to explain that, right?

Yes I quoted a blog in which Daniel Larimer is quoted and he himself commented on, is that out of context? You should be happy, then people can view the discussion, and guess what, who was it that brought that blog into the discussion, me? Nope.

Thanks for linking to the delegate pay model, you know if people were interested in explaiing you would think that when someone asks then they would be happy to just show you instead of trying to attack people and call quesitons "FUD".  I have never ever claimed that the market is broken, I have never ever ever commented or brought up anything at all about bugs.

I will stop and you guys can continue to promote BTSX, you can PM me if need be.

[color=#00██ ████ ████



▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄
█  ▄▀▄             █▀▀▐▀▄▄
█  █▀█             █  ▐  ▐▌
█       ▄██▄       █  ▌  █
█     ▄██████▄     █  ▌ ▐▌
█    ██████████    █ ▐  █
█   ▐██████████▌   █ ▐ ▐▌
█    ▀▀██████▀▀    █ ▌ █
█     ▄▄▄██▄▄▄     █ ▌▐▌
█                  █▐ █
█                  █▐▐▌
█                  █▐█
▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀█

▄▄█████████▄▄
▄█▀▀▀█████████▀▀▀█▄
▄█▀    ▄▀█████▀     ▀█▄
▄█▄    █        ▀▄   ███▄
▄████▀▀▀▀▄       ▄▀▀▀▀▀███▄
████      ▀▄▄▄▄▄▀       ███
███     ▄▄███████▄▄     ▄▀█
█  ▀▄ ▄▀ ▀███████▀ ▀▄ ▄▀  █
▀█   █     ▀███▀     ▀▄  █▀
▀█▄▄█▄      █        █▄█▀
▀█████▄ ▄▀▀ ▀▀▄▄ ▄▄███▀
▀█████        ████▀
▀▀█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█▀▀



● OVER 1000000000 REKT PLEBS
● DAILY PARLAYS, ACCAS, SINGLES AND BOASTING
● BONUS HUNTING & VIP PICKS
● 24/7 LIVE TROLL BOX
● SCAM TOUTS ROASTED LIVE
 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!