Evil of religion, and investment into IBB, Islamic Bitcoin Bank

[notme]

I'm not stopping anyone by force of using IBB.  Go ahead, use IBB. I will make sure my bitcoins will not end up there, and my post is the explanation why.

I disagree with you, therefore I wrote my post. Being able to write what I wrote is one of the meanings of freedom to me.

Sharia, is exactly, the evil merge of religion and govt. It is a conquering theology, that attempts to dominate the whole world by force and majority voting.

But in thruth, no religion was able to contain itself -- it wants to spread by its definition. That is why it is so dangerous.  From Christian crusades, to the Inquisition, to Hugenots, and finally to Sharia.

Saying that financing evil is a necessity of a free currency is orthogonal to my position. I am saying that although it is technically possible, and maybe some people do it, you, the reader, shouldn't do it for the reasons I have outlined.

I am also not saying the the CEO of IBB is a not a nice guy.  Many people are good people, but they do bad things without realizing it. We are born into the world with a baggage of culture that is fed into us by the social system in which we grow.  Read 1984 by George Orwell, about how hard it is to contradict.  Many people grow up with a several conflicting views in their head, that they don't know how to balance. For example, the concept of God and the story in the Holy Books, and science.  They invent a kludge to keep them in their head without conflicitng, rather than choosing the Occam's Razor.

The sword of truth is certainly sharper than the dagger of ignorance, but how can you be sure which you hold?  Do you want to risk slipping when you cut if your tool is subpar?

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[notme]

Matthew: USSR was socialism/communism.  USA before creation of the Federal Reserve system was capitalism. Today under Obama it is more socialism. Nazism was socialism. (Hitler's party was the National Worker's Union).  You have many concepts confused.  Socialism is evil as well, but Sharia is militant and Socialism is philosophically evil. Left or right, democrats or republicans -- their title doesn't matter. What matters is what they say, and what they stand for in their actions.

To others -- I have stated my postiion and will not debate further in this forum -- the information is out there in the links I posted, and you can debate there on each of those points. My point of posting it here was pertaining to bitcoin and the hypocrisy of such a use: defending freedom and financing murder is a contradiction.

Yet you attack such hypocrisy by supporting war against a populace.  Sure, the government may lose power, but the populace loses lives.  Who are you trying to free here?

[matthewh3]

Islam is the worlds fastest growing religion the OP is obliviously afraid of that and that's why he is sprouting out Islamaphobia.  No I don't want to live under Sharia law (like my foreskin, beer and bacon butties too much) or see woman walking round in burqa's tho I don't mind the hijab tho food from the Muslim countries from North Africa to India is the best even better than Italian food and they make the best hashish  

[wogaut]

Matthew: USSR was socialism/communism.  USA before creation of the Federal Reserve system was capitalism. Today under Obama it is more socialism. Nazism was socialism. (Hitler's party was the National Worker's Union).  You have many concepts confused.  Socialism is evil as well, but Sharia is militant and Socialism is philosophically evil. Left or right, democrats or republicans -- their title doesn't matter. What matters is what they say, and what they stand for in their actions.

To others -- I have stated my postiion and will not debate further in this forum -- the information is out there in the links I posted, and you can debate there on each of those points. My point of posting it here was pertaining to bitcoin and the hypocrisy of such a use: defending freedom and financing murder is a contradiction.

First socialism is not equal communism.

Second, I was just waiting when you would call upon Godwin's law, and here it is!
Wow on the second page, that was fast!

[matthewh3]

Matthew: USSR was socialism/communism.  USA before creation of the Federal Reserve system was capitalism. Today under Obama it is more socialism. Nazism was socialism. (Hitler's party was the National Worker's Union).  You have many concepts confused.  Socialism is evil as well, but Sharia is militant and Socialism is philosophically evil. Left or right, democrats or republicans -- their title doesn't matter. What matters is what they say, and what they stand for in their actions.

To others -- I have stated my postiion and will not debate further in this forum -- the information is out there in the links I posted, and you can debate there on each of those points. My point of posting it here was pertaining to bitcoin and the hypocrisy of such a use: defending freedom and financing murder is a contradiction.

This is off-topic but if you read this guide on "What is Socialism" - http://www.worldsocialism.org/articles/what_is_socialism.php you will see the USSR was not socialism and the political party who wrote that guide was around before the creation of the USSR.  Yes the Nazi's was "National Socialism" again if you read that guide and Karl Marx's works you will find "National Socialism" is an abomination!

Edit:  The Democrat Party are "Neo-Liberals" very different and far removed from socialism. 

[notme]

Islam is the worlds fastest growing religion the OP is obliviously afraid of that and that's why he is sprouting out Islamaphobia.  No I don't want to live under Sharia law (like my foreskin, beer and bacon butties too much) or see woman walking round in burqa's tho I don't mind the hijab tho food from the Muslim countries from North Africa to India is the best even better than Italian food and they make the best hashish  

If OP is right, and it is a philosophical blunder, then he should have nothing to fear.  Such things will work themselves out.  It will not take over unless you prove it right by constantly attacking it.  Islam teaches one how to draw strength from such attacks, as many philosophies do.

[DannyM]

I should know better than to reply to a post like this, but...

Religion does suck big huge donkey eggs, but please go take a look at the ~actual~ ~actions~ of Senbonzakura and IBB.

They have done nothing even close to harmful to anybody (well except maybe unknowingly being an enabler to rexcoin).

In fact, they have done a lot of good things; they have helped several community projects get off the ground and promoted the actual use of bitcoin.

While I can't disagree with you about the harm religion causes, IBB is not a religion, it is a small bitcoin community organization that has been a great and active member of this community. I'll also add, I've noticed that while Senbonzakura won't get IBB involved with something he doesn't feel is right, such as interest payments or gambling, he is more tolerant of other folks doing what they will than several other folks here.

[matthewh3]

I should know better than to reply to a post like this, but...

Religion does suck big huge donkey eggs, but please go take a look at the ~actual~ ~actions~ of Senbonzakura and IBB.

They have done nothing even close to harmful to anybody (well except maybe unknowingly being an enabler to rexcoin).

In fact, they have done a lot of good things; they have helped several community projects get off the ground and promoted the actual use of bitcoin.

While I can't disagree with you about the harm religion causes, IBB is not a religion, it is a small bitcoin community organization that has been a great and active member of this community. I'll also add, I've noticed that while Senbonzakura won't get IBB involved with something he doesn't feel is right, such as interest payments or gambling, he is more tolerant of other folks doing what they will than several other folks here.

+1

[guruvan]

A man goes around helping, rather than hurting people, and it's somehow a problem? Because he chooses to do so because he believes it is morally obligatory to act this way?

No...I just don't see it. Senbonzakura's actions speak loudly of the type of person he is. A religion, or lack of one, doesn't make a man good or evil - it is only truly how he acts in life that does this.

When you show me that he is doing wrong, or that the IBB is doing wrong, then I may listen. As soon as you attack his beliefs, I will do as I will now - put you on the iggy list I definitely don't have time to see more of this garbage in life.

[matthewh3]

A man goes around helping, rather than hurting people, and it's somehow a problem? Because he chooses to do so because he believes it is morally obligatory to act this way?

No...I just don't see it. Senbonzakura's actions speak loudly of the type of person he is. A religion, or lack of one, doesn't make a man good or evil - it is only truly how he acts in life that does this.

When you show me that he is doing wrong, or that the IBB is doing wrong, then I may listen. As soon as you attack his beliefs, I will do as I will now - put you on the iggy list I definitely don't have time to see more of this garbage in life.

There is lots and lots of trolling on this forum its one of the reasons "bitcoin.org" stopped linking to it.

[Variable]

Dude, IBB gives interest free loans.  Investing in it has nothing to do with your beliefs or ideals, its all about rates of return and available funding.  Bitcoin is all about free market capitalism and if IBB wants a religious religious correlation to be draw between their name and a set of ideals, who cares.  Its all about bringing home the bacon.

[frisco2]

There is logic in your argument, however, you are missing one thing - restriction of human rights under Sharia.

IBB's money comes from Islamic religion and Sharia -- they promote it openly. Sharia in turn, coupled with government protection, is a totalitarian regime that puts a gun to people's head to force them to do certain things. So the product of their labor is not an output of a free market. And therefore, your argument does not apply.
 
To illustrate this point more dramatically imagine that I trick people to come to an island for a big opportunity. Once they arrive they find out that there is a factory that makes iPhones. I don't let them leave the island and I shoot anyone who tries to escape. I have food and shelter for them, but I will not pay them anything, and they are forced to work for me as slaves.   Suppose food and shelter for these people costs me $1/day, while their labor in a free world would actually cost $100/day.  The cost to make an iPhone would be $10 for me, while perhaps the cost to make an iPhone in regular conditions is 10 times as much. Of course I will be able to make a huge profit on those iPhones, so big that I will be able to give attractive loans.  I will also use excess money to create a philosophy in which the slaves will not think of themselves as slaves, but more as those fighting for a higher cause -- a religion called Xyz, that demands 1 year of forced labor in order to achieve 1 year of bliss after death.  People who will call me a liar I will label as confused souls that need forced guidance. I will advertise this philosophy as a new solace to happiness.
 
This example is not as far fetched as you might think.  You can watch the movie "East-West" about a call to expat Russians to return to Soviet Union, under Stalin. They couldn't leave Russia afterwards, and were forced to work at a tenth of their income they would have in Western Europe, as well as, to live at one tenth the standard of life.

This kind of thing happens all over the place, in history, and even today.  Forced-labour of people who are in jail (because they are against the government), cheap labor in China because of Govt import/export taxes and emmigration restrictions (Red China), tricking girls into prostitution (Zwi Migdal), and your plane old slavery.  In fact, just by going through history, we can find the same kind of conflicts that exist today.
 
It is true that you can leave Iran today, although I imagine the process is not simple. But by the time you grow up to be an adult to make such a decision, you have already been taught about the world through the lens of Islam and Sharia.  Even if you wanted to have an independent opinion during your childhood or teens, you couldn't have -- just try to say openly there something against Islam. You would be be torn to pieces.   
 
The same was happening in Russia. People were afraid to say something in their kitchen that is against the government. The walls had ears. Also, when there was a parade, everyone had to come out -- if you don't, people will report you.  After Stalin was dead, people finally started to speak, still very slowly.
 
In order to have a free market, people must be free to do for work whatever they want, and where they want.  If they want to create a travel agency for American girls in mini-skirts to visit Tehran, they should be free to do so. And citizens of Tehran should be free to look at those girls, at the risk of loosing some friends (but not their heads).
 
This point of view comes naturally if you understand the source of human rights. Why do I think I have a right to start such a travel agency ? The answer is here:
 
http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2011-fall/ayn-rand-theory-rights.asp

[Kluge]

So anyhoo, I forgot to tell sen I sent BDK's March donation (.15B) to IBB a few days ago (but I'm sure he'll read this thread). I think I've been telling him this every month since I started donating, but next month (payment for month of May), it'll finally be significant. After reading this thread and the ridiculous thread seeking lendees who have no religious beliefs (less Atheism) nor are socialistic/altruistic, I'd also like to state intent to donate 5BTC extra on top of this month's donation (to be paid on May 1st).


Cheers,

Rabble-rousing ethnically-Jewish "hard" agnostic. (please assume all use of "is" means "imagined to be," and interpret commands as something imagined by an entity which may or may not exist [not that I'm admitting that is a known unknown!])

[Miner612]

You people are un fucking real lol wow

[frisco2]

A very good article dated two days ago:

http://ruleofreason.blogspot.ca/2012/04/many-appetites-for-cruelty.html

Finally, there is a forum, as active as the bitcoin one, where philosophical ideas are discussed:

http://forum.objectivismonline.com/

[John (John K.)]

Hey, Atlas, it's been some time since you were this active.

[the joint]

Hey OP,

You're an idiot.

I can't believe you don't realize that freedom is NOT conditional, and that's why it's fucking freedom.  You can't fight for freedom or protect it, you evolutionary dead end.  

And that's just one of the absurd assumptions in your post.

[DannyM]

And OP,

Despite your jabbering and rambling about violence and supporting violence, IBB has done nothing at all to promote or encourage or perform or support violence. So save your wrath for someone who has crossed that line. It bothers me that you treat him as if he has harmed anyone or coerced or defrauded anyone in any way, when there are ZERO people making such claims other than you.

Tell us what he did and when and to whom. "He gets his money from eeeevil Sharia/Islamic activities" is no where near a concrete allegation. Who did IBB hurt? When? Don't make me drag this thing out but rounding up the the dozens of people and projects IBB has helped and the good that came out of that.

You mention shooting people and slavery and forced prostitution. Come on! That is so ridiculous and you have absolutely nothing that links the actions or attitudes of IBB to anything even close to that. IBB's goal appears to be to provide small interest-free loans to people who can be helped by them, and also to support and provide hosting, capital, and other resources for new bootstrapped bitcoin businesses.

Just stop this nonsense.

[LoupGaroux]

frisco, frisco frisco... as if the "let's create a tool to link people to their bitcoin transactions" brain-fart wasn't enough, now you want to put on your Pretty Princess Troll Suit and start throwing a tantrum for attention?

Ok- you are an utter cretin. The only argument worse that citing youtube videos and agit-prop websites is that whole "I don't know fuck-all anything about political theory, so I throw out all the big scary words I read somewhere" premature ejaculation of a post you made 5 or 6 up from here.

A couple of very short lessons for you to suck on for a while before you disgrace yourself again:

The nazi party was the Nationalsozialismus movement (National Socialism) which had nothing to do with unions or workers, they actually killed a lot of union organizers and working class folks.

The USSR was neither socialist nor truly communist, despite their mad labeling skillz- it was more of an autocratic dictatorship of a very limited privileged class (the nomenklatura) who used the trappings of Marxist/Leninist philosophy to justify overthrowing a monarchy, and installing their own gang-rape of an exploitative system. Once we hit Stalin, the whole "workers soviet" concept was tossed in favor of a power structure that responded only to the diseased whims of a syphilitic sociopath.

Wars suck. Wars supported by assholes who want to wrap themselves in the false coat of human rights and goodness as a way to free oppressed people suck even harder. You destroy any hope of credibility your point of view could hope for when you advocate for war, without having seen it from the inside. If you had you would not advocate for it, it is not the answer. You want regime change in Iran, march your happy ass over there with 30 or 40 kilos of Semtex strapped to your belly and give Achmidinijihad an embrace he will remember for the remaining nano-seconds of his life. Don't look for others to take action for you, man up and act.

And, your weird ass example about your slave island? WTF? You should invest in a reason for saying dumb shit, not just saying it. Support your argument, don't just say ridiculous things. We have the original atlas and his many personalities for that if we need existential masturbation, your stuff isn't even legible. How you made the leap from your island of slave-girl Apple employees to the IBB and it's fundamental operating principle of banking under Sharia law is just strange and meaningless.

[Transisto]

As much I hate IBB founder and all religions altogether... I don't agree with most of OP.

I wish one could take those good principles of sharia (investment related) and keep the weird religious stuff to where it belong.

One can see the Haram part of Sharia_investments
as an outdated version of PayPal Acceptable Use Policy

It's not like we have to limit ourselves due to a prior art / copyright.