What happens to the wicked upon death?

[BADecker]

Was Samuel's spirit
“Then the woman said, ‘Whom shall I bring up for you?’ And he said, ‘Bring Samuel up for me.’ When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, ‘Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!’ And the king said to her, ‘Do not be afraid. What did you see?’ And the woman said to Saul, ‘I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.’ So he said to her, ‘What is his form?’ And said, ‘An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.’ And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.’ ”

Yet, the things that the Gospels, the Revelation, Jesus, and St. Paul say indicate that the faithful believers will be with God at and after death. So, was Samuel not a believer? Or does God dwell with His Paradise and passed believers in the Ground? Or might it have been a lying spirit and not Samuel at all?

Perhaps the spirits of the dead separate. After all, even believers are not entirely faithful. Perhaps the unfaithful spiritual part of believers remains in the ground, while the faithful part goes on to live with God in glory forever.

If you notice in the bible(i will search it and show it to you)as a punishment to Adam and Eva,them and all the people till the death and rise of Jesus, went in the hell.So after Jesus rises Adam and Eva and all the other good souls went next to god in heaven.

Good. Show it to me. I could have missed it. 

Luke 16:24

So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

So from the above, both could see each other. I believe when Christ died, he went to this paradise and brought these people with him.

To me, this passage/parable is very vague for showing that the early believers didn't go to the paradise until the time of or after Christ's incarnation.

I agree, however, that "things" were very different before the suffering/death/resurrection than after.

There is a large following that hold to the idea that the thousand years in the Revelation is figurative, that it is figurative of the whole time from Jesus' death and resurrection on earth until final judgment, that it depicts Satan's death, and that Satan was raised from the dead at the time he was let out of the abyss (which may have already happened). The world changes when there is no Satan around to do the actual tempting. Without Satan, people are only tempted by their own lusts, etc., and by the lusts of other people.

[dicemant]

Everyone dies wicked or not ends up being plant food

[Rigon]

Mr.Bitty,is correct in his observation about no other Christian agreeing with you about your particular creationist beliefs, Zolace.
I don't give a shit about your petty squabbles over religious dogma. Not like I give a shit about your "holy day" being Sunday or Saturday, or whether or not you consider eating pigs or grasshoopers to be a "sin".

But when it come to the issue of who is "wicked" and who isn't, I recall that liars rate at the top of your Christian "wicked" list, and you are a liar.

What will happen to YOU after you die and face your "creator"?

[Rigon]

Sana8410-

"...but i'm more inclined to comment on the topic, your position is known to me already


Is it? Just so we're clear.....

I'm no Lucifer. I never rebelled against God.  I'm not "wicked".
If there is a better question, it is....

What Happens to the "wicked" in Life?

No one in this life gives a shit about a "wicked" person after they die.
You have to consider why this question is being asked, and wonder why the person is asking it is the sense that all thing will be judged posthumously....

Not like Zolace, who is a proven liar In This Life , and will resort to lies In This Life, and be judged by his peers In This Life....

[sana8410]

Sana8410-

"...but i'm more inclined to comment on the topic, your position is known to me already


Is it? Just so we're clear.....

I'm no Lucifer. I never rebelled against God.  I'm not "wicked".
If there is a better question, it is....

What Happens to the "wicked" in Life?

No one in this life gives a shit about a "wicked" person after they die.
You have to consider why this question is being asked, and wonder why the person is asking it is the sense that all thing will be judged posthumously....

Not like Zolace, who is a proven liar In This Life , and will resort to lies In This Life, and be judged by his peers In This Life....

Who said that? 
That you believe in God, but think he has no interaction with mankind, but mainly that any discussion on the Bible would be irrelevant to you because you think its fairytale....is that close enough?

[Rigon]

Actually that's very....close.. to what I believe.
Zolace certainly cannot accuse you of poor reading comprehension!

What's your excuse?  Do you have any sane reason to think I'm wrong?

The main question stands for all Christians, and that is the foundation of your beliefs, and that is does your "god" exist?
Without a firm foundation, anything else is moot.

[BADecker]

Mr.Bitty,is correct in his observation about no other Christian agreeing with you about your particular creationist beliefs, Zolace.
I don't give a shit about your petty squabbles over religious dogma. Not like I give a shit about your "holy day" being Sunday or Saturday, or whether or not you consider eating pigs or grasshoopers to be a "sin".

But when it come to the issue of who is "wicked" and who isn't, I recall that liars rate at the top of your Christian "wicked" list, and you are a liar.

What will happen to YOU after you die and face your "creator"?

Actually, the creation story in the Bible is very vague, at least the part before the creation of people. When you sit down and read this before-part slowly, you will see that:

1. Time and the universe and the electromagnetic spectrum were very different than what they are today;
2. There is or could be an expanse of something that resembles time before the beginning, but isn't time in the way we understand it. The beginning might only be the beginning of the universe as we know it now, and even 6,000 years ago, after it was fully created, (when it was set as it is now) it was different;
3. The separation of the waters is similar to making different groups of materials in space, all of them being separated from the basic mass that was called earth;
4. That "before" the first day was created, following when God created light, that the electromagnetic spectrum and sub-atomic particles were different in nature, so much as to not be able to call "time" before the first day "time;"
5. The sun, moon and stars were made out of the materials that had been previously separate when the waters were separated.

Anyway, you all get the point. Go back and read slowly, and see what is happening.

[Nabilo]

they take good manners lessons      

[zolace]

Was Samuel's spirit
“Then the woman said, ‘Whom shall I bring up for you?’ And he said, ‘Bring Samuel up for me.’ When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, ‘Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!’ And the king said to her, ‘Do not be afraid. What did you see?’ And the woman said to Saul, ‘I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.’ So he said to her, ‘What is his form?’ And said, ‘An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.’ And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.’ ”

Yet, the things that the Gospels, the Revelation, Jesus, and St. Paul say indicate that the faithful believers will be with God at and after death. So, was Samuel not a believer? Or does God dwell with His Paradise and passed believers in the Ground? Or might it have been a lying spirit and not Samuel at all?

Perhaps the spirits of the dead separate. After all, even believers are not entirely faithful. Perhaps the unfaithful spiritual part of believers remains in the ground, while the faithful part goes on to live with God in glory forever.

If you notice in the bible(i will search it and show it to you)as a punishment to Adam and Eva,them and all the people till the death and rise of Jesus, went in the hell.So after Jesus rises Adam and Eva and all the other good souls went next to god in heaven.

Good. Show it to me. I could have missed it. 

Luke 16:24

So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

So from the above, both could see each other. I believe when Christ died, he went to this paradise and brought these people with him.

To me, this passage/parable is very vague for showing that the early believers didn't go to the paradise until the time of or after Christ's incarnation.

I agree, however, that "things" were very different before the suffering/death/resurrection than after.

There is a large following that hold to the idea that the thousand years in the Revelation is figurative, that it is figurative of the whole time from Jesus' death and resurrection on earth until final judgment, that it depicts Satan's death, and that Satan was raised from the dead at the time he was let out of the abyss (which may have already happened). The world changes when there is no Satan around to do the actual tempting. Without Satan, people are only tempted by their own lusts, etc., and by the lusts of other people.

In John 14:6 (NIV), Jesus says "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." This proves inescapably that through Jesus is the only way to get to heaven. Romans 10:9 (NIV) says "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Saved from what? "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus" Romans 6:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23 That is why Jesus came to die in the first place - to take our punishment for us so that we could be right with God. "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all" Isaiah 53:6 John 3:16 is also related.

[Rigon]

This is where you are, Sana8410......

Your Bible god doesn't exist, and all beliefs and religiosity surrounding the belief in your Bible god is moot. In this particular "horse race", your horse doesn't even exit the starting gate.
There is nothing other than wishful thinking on your behalf.  If there were any sound reason to believe your Bible god exists, many more people other than Tomas would have proved me wrong long ago, and they haven't.
 
I understand that many Christains do not feel any obligation to prove their beliefs to a battle-scarred religious skeptic like me, but at the end of the day I'm not the face in the mirror.

[sana8410]

This is where you are, Sana8410......

Your Bible god doesn't exist, and all beliefs and religiosity surrounding the belief in your Bible god is moot. In this particular "horse race", your horse doesn't even exit the starting gate.
There is nothing other than wishful thinking on your behalf.  If there were any sound reason to believe your Bible god exists, many more people other than Tomas would have proved me wrong long ago, and they haven't.
 
I understand that many Christains do not feel any obligation to prove their beliefs to a battle-scarred religious skeptic like me, but at the end of the day I'm not the face in the mirror.

Your God and mine could be the same, the only difference would be is you don't think He inspired the scripture, or the Bible we have today. The problem is no one can prove to someone else how it inspired them to believe it. So i won't debate on your grounds of proof, only you can read it, or study it, and see where it leads you  .

[Rigon]

This is where you are, Sana8410......

Your Bible god doesn't exist, and all beliefs and religiosity surrounding the belief in your Bible god is moot. In this particular "horse race", your horse doesn't even exit the starting gate.
There is nothing other than wishful thinking on your behalf.  If there were any sound reason to believe your Bible god exists, many more people other than Tomas would have proved me wrong long ago, and they haven't.
 
I understand that many Christains do not feel any obligation to prove their beliefs to a battle-scarred religious skeptic like me, but at the end of the day I'm not the face in the mirror.

Your God and mine could be the same, the only difference would be is you don't think He inspired the scripture, or the Bible we have today. The problem is no one can prove to someone else how it inspired them to believe it. So i won't debate on your grounds of proof, only you can read it, or study it, and see where it leads you  .

Don't change the subject, or get all holier-than-thou on me. That shit don't fly with me, nor should it be an acceptable argument for your beliefs. If you look in your back yard for unicorns, and you don't find one, do you thinks that it's logical to believe that unicorns are really there just but you can't prove it one way or the other?

That is how ridiculous your beliefs in your Bible god are.

The FACT is, your religious beliefs are bullshit. Now, you can either ignore the fact, or prove me wrong.
No other aspect of life would you ever just mindlessly believe something without proof.  So why do you abandon common sense and reason in this case? Why would you ever abandon common sense at all?

[sana8410]

This is where you are, Sana8410......

Your Bible god doesn't exist, and all beliefs and religiosity surrounding the belief in your Bible god is moot. In this particular "horse race", your horse doesn't even exit the starting gate.
There is nothing other than wishful thinking on your behalf.  If there were any sound reason to believe your Bible god exists, many more people other than Tomas would have proved me wrong long ago, and they haven't.
 
I understand that many Christains do not feel any obligation to prove their beliefs to a battle-scarred religious skeptic like me, but at the end of the day I'm not the face in the mirror.

Your God and mine could be the same, the only difference would be is you don't think He inspired the scripture, or the Bible we have today. The problem is no one can prove to someone else how it inspired them to believe it. So i won't debate on your grounds of proof, only you can read it, or study it, and see where it leads you  .

Don't change the subject, or get all holier-than-thou on me. That shit don't fly with me, nor should it be an acceptable argument for your beliefs. If you look in your back yard for unicorns, and you don't find one, do you thinks that it's logical to believe that unicorns are really there just but you can't prove it one way or the other?

That is how ridiculous your beliefs in your Bible god are.

The FACT is, your religious beliefs are bullshit. Now, you can either ignore the fact, or prove me wrong.
No other aspect of life would you ever just mindlessly believe something without proof.  So why do you abandon common sense and reason in this case? Why would you ever abandon common sense at all?

Your the one changing the subject of this thread. You would be more believable if you just said your an atheist but you believe in God too. So prove your God exists because i can't see him either

[Rigon]

"Born Again"....
"Suffer the little children come unto me..."
"Child-like faith".....

Did you ever stop and think about why Christianity always requires believers to become "like children".....?

Because children are innocent, and gullible, and are much more easily victimized.

Grown-ups would never fall for that crap.

[Rigon]

This is where you are, Sana8410......

Your Bible god doesn't exist, and all beliefs and religiosity surrounding the belief in your Bible god is moot. In this particular "horse race", your horse doesn't even exit the starting gate.
There is nothing other than wishful thinking on your behalf.  If there were any sound reason to believe your Bible god exists, many more people other than Tomas would have proved me wrong long ago, and they haven't.
 
I understand that many Christains do not feel any obligation to prove their beliefs to a battle-scarred religious skeptic like me, but at the end of the day I'm not the face in the mirror.

Your God and mine could be the same, the only difference would be is you don't think He inspired the scripture, or the Bible we have today. The problem is no one can prove to someone else how it inspired them to believe it. So i won't debate on your grounds of proof, only you can read it, or study it, and see where it leads you  .

Don't change the subject, or get all holier-than-thou on me. That shit don't fly with me, nor should it be an acceptable argument for your beliefs. If you look in your back yard for unicorns, and you don't find one, do you thinks that it's logical to believe that unicorns are really there just but you can't prove it one way or the other?

That is how ridiculous your beliefs in your Bible god are.

The FACT is, your religious beliefs are bullshit. Now, you can either ignore the fact, or prove me wrong.
No other aspect of life would you ever just mindlessly believe something without proof.  So why do you abandon common sense and reason in this case? Why would you ever abandon common sense at all?

Your the one changing the subject of this thread. You would be more believable if you just said your an atheist but you believe in God too. So prove your God exists because i can't see him either

Perhaps, but actually just putting it all into perspective.

"What happens to the wicked upon death?"

What you mean is, what does your Bible god do to the wicked.....?, and since you can't make a reasonable case for the existence of your Bible god at all, what's the point? It's all superstitious nonsense.
Someone once invented a fairy tale to scare children and superstitious people, and you people are still falling for the same old superstitious beliefs in the 21st century. 

If you and Zolace want to continue your childish debate over the bogeyman, that's up to you. But just about it the way grown-ups would thinks.

[Rigon]

Why would you believe anything I say when I can't prove it?  You don't just mindlessly believe anything I say, why should I mindlessly accept what you say?
You don't have any special traits that I don't have. In such matter we are equal.

There is nothing special about your beliefs. There is nothing esoteric about them. You don't belong to a special club with magic decoder rings or secret hidden powers..... Nothing supernatural or magical.

The only difference between you and me is you place your faith in things you cannot prove in any tangible way. I suppose there's nothing wrong with that, unless you become like Zolace and eventually can't tell what is real and what isn't.

[sana8410]

Sorry Rigon but unless you can prove your God you can't ask others to prove theirs .

[Rigon]

Sorry Rigon but unless you can prove your God you can't ask others to prove theirs .

Who made that stupid rule?
I'm not asking anyone to believe in my version of "god". I have nothing to prove.
You, and other Christians like you, are commissioned to convert people to your belief system. That's rather difficult when you can't present any evidence of your "god", isn't it.

I'm not a brainwashed religious fool. I know when things do or do not exist.

Too bad you can't say the same.

[BADecker]

Was Samuel's spirit
“Then the woman said, ‘Whom shall I bring up for you?’ And he said, ‘Bring Samuel up for me.’ When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, ‘Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!’ And the king said to her, ‘Do not be afraid. What did you see?’ And the woman said to Saul, ‘I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.’ So he said to her, ‘What is his form?’ And said, ‘An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.’ And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.’ ”

Yet, the things that the Gospels, the Revelation, Jesus, and St. Paul say indicate that the faithful believers will be with God at and after death. So, was Samuel not a believer? Or does God dwell with His Paradise and passed believers in the Ground? Or might it have been a lying spirit and not Samuel at all?

Perhaps the spirits of the dead separate. After all, even believers are not entirely faithful. Perhaps the unfaithful spiritual part of believers remains in the ground, while the faithful part goes on to live with God in glory forever.

If you notice in the bible(i will search it and show it to you)as a punishment to Adam and Eva,them and all the people till the death and rise of Jesus, went in the hell.So after Jesus rises Adam and Eva and all the other good souls went next to god in heaven.

Good. Show it to me. I could have missed it. 

Luke 16:24

So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

So from the above, both could see each other. I believe when Christ died, he went to this paradise and brought these people with him.

To me, this passage/parable is very vague for showing that the early believers didn't go to the paradise until the time of or after Christ's incarnation.

I agree, however, that "things" were very different before the suffering/death/resurrection than after.

There is a large following that hold to the idea that the thousand years in the Revelation is figurative, that it is figurative of the whole time from Jesus' death and resurrection on earth until final judgment, that it depicts Satan's death, and that Satan was raised from the dead at the time he was let out of the abyss (which may have already happened). The world changes when there is no Satan around to do the actual tempting. Without Satan, people are only tempted by their own lusts, etc., and by the lusts of other people.

In John 14:6 (NIV), Jesus says "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." This proves inescapably that through Jesus is the only way to get to heaven. Romans 10:9 (NIV) says "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Saved from what? "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus" Romans 6:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23 That is why Jesus came to die in the first place - to take our punishment for us so that we could be right with God. "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all" Isaiah 53:6 John 3:16 is also related.

Check out Who the Angel of the Lord is in the O.T.  Many Bible scholars believe that He is Jesus before He was born of Mary. If there is no angel name (like Gabriel), and the text says the rather than an Angel of the Lord, the angel described has the attributes of God, Himself.

The book of Zechariah in the O.T. seems to have the best description of the Angel of the Lord. In it, the Angel is more than the other angels and creatures of God, yet the Angel is less than God Himself. This is similar to what Jesus is outside of the time that He spends as a man walking the earth.

This agrees with 1 Corinthians 15:27,28 where it says, "27 For he 'has put everything under his feet.' Now when it says that 'everything' has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

Hebrews explains that the angels are winds and flames of fire, not beings with the attributes of God.

[sana8410]

Sorry Rigon but unless you can prove your God you can't ask others to prove theirs .

Who made that stupid rule?
I'm not asking anyone to believe in my version of "god". I have nothing to prove.
You, and other Christians like you, are commissioned to convert people to your belief system. That's rather difficult when you can't present any evidence of your "god", isn't it.

I'm not a brainwashed religious fool. I know when things do or do not exist.

Too bad you can't say the same.

I'm not asking anything of you either, and no one can convert anyone, and no one is commissioned to offer the kind of proof you seek

John 20;29 Jesus said to him, Zolace, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

John 6;44 No man can come to me, except the Father who has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So all the preaching in the world by any human can't convert anyone, its only a vehicle