What happens to the wicked upon death?

[zolace]

This was one of the questions raised in another thread here, but got lost among other 'things'.

What are the thoughts on this?  What does various faiths have to say on this?

Of course, it begets the question of what determines what makes someone wicked.  What then is evil?  So that too may enter into it.

Matthew 10:28 brought this to mind (that, and a thread on the political board regarding the Koran and the Bible).

28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

So, this speaks of something that happens after death.  In hell is where both body and soul get destroyed here.

The following refers to wicked angels.  2 Peter 2:4
 
4 For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Then there is Matthew 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:

[Ludi]

Um, the same thing that happens to everybody: you die. Doesn't matter what life you lead we all share that in common.

[crystalsum]

I do believe that you most definitely become compost.

[Rigon]

What Happens to the wicked upon death?I guess it all depends on your favorite superstitious belief. Why not wait until after he dies...and ask Dick Cheney?

[zolace]

What Happens to the wicked upon death?I guess it all depends on your favorite superstitious belief. Why not wait until after he dies...and ask Dick Cheney?

LOL, that was funny.But, on a serious note, one would have to assume the wicked that die can later communicate to the living.There are those that believe that.  Seems to be a popular theme in TV, etc.

[sana8410]

"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.

"The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17.

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish. Psalm 146:4

[sana8410]

Three hells!

The starting point for such an investigation can be none other than the very book from which Christians profess to derive their doctrine of hell - the Bible! By scrutinizing its pages, one can strip away the theological trappings of ancient and medieval myth and fabrication and discover the true teaching on the subject.

One's first surprise is that the Bible speaks of not one but of three different "hells"! In the widely used King James Version, three totally different Greek words - words with totally different meanings-are translated by the one English word hell. The three words are hades, tartaros and gehenna.

In biblical usage, the Greek word hades - used only II times in the New Testament - is roughly equivalent to the Old Testament Hebrew word sheol, meaning grave or pit (compare Acts 2:27 with Psalm 16:10). Hades may be likened to a hole in the ground. In the Bible it has nothing to do with fire.

Most modern biblical translators admit that the use of the English word hell to translate hades and sheol is an unfortunate and misleading practice.

Why?

Because in seeing the word hell, many readers impute to it the traditional connotation of an ever-burning inferno - when this was never remotely intended in the Greek language or in Old English!

In its true biblical usage, hades does indeed refer to the state or abode of the dead - but not in the sense of spirits walking around in some sort of "shadowy realm." Hades is simply the abode we call the grave. All the dead go to this hell.

 

The Second Hell

The second hell of the Bible, tartaros, is mentioned only once in scripture - in II Peter 2:4: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell[tartaroo], and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment.

Following their rebellion to unseat God from His throne (Isa. 14:12-14; Rev. 12:4), the archangel Lucifer (now Satan) and a third of the created angels (demons) were ejected from heaven (Luke 10:18). They were cast down to tartaros, a place or condition of restraint that God has imposed on the mutinous angels as they await ultimate judgment (Jude 6; I Cor. 6:3).

Tartaros, then, is a "hell" that applies only to evil, rebellious angels or demons. It is interesting that the ancient Greeks used this word to describe the place in which Zeus confined the rebellious Titans. Nowhere in the Bible is there any mention of men being put into this particular "hell."

 

The Third Hell

So far, we have seen that the first hell of the Bible - hades - is simply the grave. The second hell -tartaros - a place or condition of restraint for demons. What, then, is the third hell of the Bible?

Surely, it must be the old fashioned Bible "hell"- the literal ever-burning inferno, the place of eternal torment of the damned!

Or is it?

Did you ever notice that the Greek word used by the writers of the New Testament for this third hell is gehenna? It comes from the Hebrew Gai Hinnom, meaning"valley of Hinnom." Hinnom is a deep, narrow ravine located to the south and southwest of Jerusalem. It is to this hell that I recently traveled. But what does this valley have to do with the traditional Christian concept of "hell"? The answer may surprise you!

 

Lunch in Hell

Gehenna - the valley of Hinnom - is today a relatively pleasant place. In recent years, grass and even some flowers have taken over portions of the valley floor, and there are plenty of trees to provide shade from the scorching sun (see photos on these pages - {Editor's note: Sorry, pictures not included.}).

I descended into the valley by means of a rocky dirt path. A small dog - no three-headed Cerberus! - barked briefly, then returned to scavenging in a small cave near the path. Further on down the valley two boys were kicking a soccer ball between them.

I sought refuge from the heat of the noon sun under a large tree, and took out my lunch. A few birds came by for a handout. The surroundings were not unlike those of a typical city park.

After enjoying a leisurely lunch, I headed up out of the valley and proceeded unimpeded toward the Jaffa Gate. My memory of the valley is one of a pleasant and relaxing haven in the midst of a hot and tiring walking tour of Jerusalem.

Gehenna, in short, is a far cry from the hell of Dante or from what this valley was like in Jesus day!

The valley was not always such a pleasant place. In the Old Testament it was a place of abominable pagan rites, including infant sacrifice. It was there that the apostate kings Ahaz and Manasseh made their children "pass through the fire" to the god Molech. The rites were specifically celebrated in Tophet, the "place of abhorrence," one of the chief groves in the valley

King Josiah of ancient Judah finally put an end to these abominations. He defiled the valley, rendering it ceremonially unclean (II Kings 23:10). Later the valley became the cesspool and city dump of Jerusalem - a repository for sewage, refuse and animal carcasses. The bodies of despised criminals were also burned there along with the rubbish. Fires burned continuously, feeding on a constant supply of garbage and refuse.

Aceldama, the "field of blood", purchased with the money Judas received for the betrayal of Christ (Matt. 27: was also in part of the valley of Hinnom.

 

Gehenna-and the Lake of Fire

What, then, does this valley called gehenna have to do with hell?

Notice. At the end of this age, at the crisis at the end of this world's civilization, the prophesied Beast of the book of Revelation - a Satan-inspired political dictator and a miracle-working religious figure, the False Prophet, working with him will resist the re-establishment of the government of God by fighting against Jesus Christ at His Second Coming. Their fate is revealed by the apostle John: "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet.... These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone" (Rev. 19:20).

Where will this temporary lake of fire - this "hell" - be?

The prophet Isaiah wrote of this lake of fire prepared for the Beast: "For Tophet [in the valley of Hinnom] is ordained of old, yea, for the king it is prepared, he hath made it deep and large, the pile thereof is fire and wood, the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it" (Isa. 30:33).

One thousand years later, Satan himself will be cast into this rekindled fiery lake where the Beast and False Prophet were cast! (See Revelation 20:10.)

But what of the wicked who have died over the many millennia? Does the Bible say that they are now suffering fiery punishment for their sins in a lake of fire?

Absolutely not!

In the sequence of Revelation 20 - read it for yourself - the incorrigibly wicked are resurrected to be thrown into the lake of fire after Satan is cast there! Read it, in Revelation 20:15.

What, then, will become of these wicked? Will they writhe in flames for eternity?

No!

The wicked will be burned up in the intense heat of the coming gehenna fire on earth. They will be consumed, annihilated, destroyed!

This punishment will be everlasting - permanent and final. The Bible calls it the "second death" (Rev. 20:14; 21: - from which there is no possibility of a further resurrection.

The Bible does teach eternal punishment, but not eternal punishing.

The prophet Malachi provides a graphic description. "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble, and the day that cometh shall burn them up…(4:1). To the righteous, God says that the wicked shall be "ashes under the soles of your feet . (Mal. 4:3).

http://home.sprynet.com/~pabco/tohell.htm

[elliwilli]

I am pretty sure that they die and get buried/cremated.
 

[Bitcoinexp]

They die just as everyone does. What happens to the wicked after death? Well that's a different story.

[BitCoinNutJob]

Look to philosophy for more accurate truth not religion.

People may display some behavior in some context which some people deem evil but nobody is truly the pure form of evil/wicked..... imo.

Heres what i think when you die 2 options:

1.) You lose the ability to channel some of the energy of the universe into your organism, your everything is reconfigured. (EXAMPLE: you are buried and rot some of you is fed to plants some to worms.)  If this happens you never know the identity you were when you were "alive" again.

2.) Your physical body dies and you move to a non physical realm - some of your identity remains.

[zimmah]

Hell is not a place of eternal torture like some churches make you believe.

In the original text there is also a difference between Sheol (or hades in Greek) and Gehinnom (gehenna in Greek).

Sheol is the 'default' state of the dead, in other words 99.9% of people who die rest in Sheol. It's just the state of not living and it's like a long dreamless sleep. Even Jesus was in Sheol for several days after he died and before he resurrected. Some translation write that Jesus was in hell during that time. Clearly Jesus was not in 'hell' as most if us see hell. I mean why would Jesus need to be send to hell for three days?

Clearly hell is not a place for the bad to go to, or at least Sheol is not. In fact some persons even asked to be send to hell (Sheol) because being in Sheol would be better than to live under their circumstances.

Jewish tradition became infiltrated by Greek doctrine of immortal souls, that's what eventually caused the spreading of the concept of the immortal souls going to heaven or hell, based on their live. This was however never the idea the bible wanted to give us. The Catholic Church spread this misinformation even more.


Ecclesiastes chapter 9 verse 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, (Sheol) where you are going.

Verse 5 and 6 of the same chapter:  For the living know* that they will die,+ but the dead know nothing at all,+ nor do they have any more reward,* because all memory of them is forgotten.+ 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.

Psalms 16:10 For you will not leave me in the Grave. (Sheol)
You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit.

Job 14:13 13 O that in the Grave (Sheol) you would conceal me,
That you would hide me until your anger passes by,
That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!

Here you see job actually ask god to conceal him in Sheol (sometimes translated as hell). Certainly he would not ask to be send to hell if he thought hell was a place of torture!

And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Pretty much the only time there is spoken about a lake of fire and brimstone, it's in revelations, which is a book full of poetic visions which are highly symbolic. Also it never claimed humans would be send there, but only the devil and his angels, so even if it were to be taken literally, it's not something we should worry about. It's likely that even the devil and his angels would not literally be send in a lake of fire and brimstone though, as it is likely that the lake just symbolizes eternal destruction and the absolute end of their existence.

Contrary to Sheol (hades), from which revival is possible, Gehenna is a permanent state of death. People thrown into Gehenna are dead for good, no more second chances. And that's about it. However unless you do something very very very wrong you will not be thrown into Gehenna. So I wouldn't really worry about it. In the history of mankind there were probably less people thrown into Gehenna than the amount of fingers you have in a single hand.


Gehenna by the way is named after a place notorious for the practice of sacrificing newborns to Baal, by throwing them into the fire. Which was very disgusting in gods eyes, which is one of the reasons he commanded the Hebrews/Israelites to commit genocide against the Canaanites because the act of child sacrifice was common in their culture. Of course that was not the only reason, but it's one of the main reasons.

You could even argue that even though the Canaanites were slaughtered in the name of god, he ultimately saved many more babies from dying by fire.


/edit oops I meant molech, not Baal. Same shit really though.

[noviapriani]

I believe that if one is "wicked".......he is dealt with in this life.  It's called karma.I do not believe that there's a judgemental "god" who sits on a throne and passes sentence on his "creations"......

[sana8410]

Hell is not a place of eternal torture like some churches make you believe.

In the original text there is also a difference between Sheol (or hades in Greek) and Gehinnom (gehenna in Greek).

Sheol is the 'default' state of the dead, in other words 99.9% of people who die rest in Sheol. It's just the state of not living and it's like a long dreamless sleep. Even Jesus was in Sheol for several days after he died and before he resurrected. Some translation write that Jesus was in hell during that time. Clearly Jesus was not in 'hell' as most if us see hell. I mean why would Jesus need to be send to hell for three days?

Clearly hell is not a place for the bad to go to, or at least Sheol is not. In fact some persons even asked to be send to hell (Sheol) because being in Sheol would be better than to live under their circumstances.

Jewish tradition became infiltrated by Greek doctrine of immortal souls, that's what eventually caused the spreading of the concept of the immortal souls going to heaven or hell, based on their live. This was however never the idea the bible wanted to give us. The Catholic Church spread this misinformation even more.


Ecclesiastes chapter 9 verse 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, (Sheol) where you are going.

Verse 5 and 6 of the same chapter:  For the living know* that they will die,+ but the dead know nothing at all,+ nor do they have any more reward,* because all memory of them is forgotten.+ 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.

Psalms 16:10 For you will not leave me in the Grave. (Sheol)
You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit.

Job 14:13 13 O that in the Grave (Sheol) you would conceal me,
That you would hide me until your anger passes by,
That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!

Here you see job actually ask god to conceal him in Sheol (sometimes translated as hell). Certainly he would not ask to be send to hell if he thought hell was a place of torture!

And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Pretty much the only time there is spoken about a lake of fire and brimstone, it's in revelations, which is a book full of poetic visions which are highly symbolic. Also it never claimed humans would be send there, but only the devil and his angels, so even if it were to be taken literally, it's not something we should worry about. It's likely that even the devil and his angels would not literally be send in a lake of fire and brimstone though, as it is likely that the lake just symbolizes eternal destruction and the absolute end of their existence.

Contrary to Sheol (hades), from which revival is possible, Gehenna is a permanent state of death. People thrown into Gehenna are dead for good, no more second chances. And that's about it. However unless you do something very very very wrong you will not be thrown into Gehenna. So I wouldn't really worry about it. In the history of mankind there were probably less people thrown into Gehenna than the amount of fingers you have in a single hand.


Gehenna by the way is named after a place notorious for the practice of sacrificing newborns to Baal, by throwing them into the fire. Which was very disgusting in gods eyes, which is one of the reasons he commanded the Hebrews/Israelites to commit genocide against the Canaanites because the act of child sacrifice was common in their culture. Of course that was not the only reason, but it's one of the main reasons.

You could even argue that even though the Canaanites were slaughtered in the name of god, he ultimately saved many more babies from dying by fire.


/edit oops I meant molech, not Baal. Same shit really though.

According to the orthodox christian bible,all people from adam till Jesus died went in hell,even is they where good or bad and Jesus was send on earth to die ,because by death was the only way to go in hell and "free" all the good souls and take the to the right place, in heaven.So Jesus was/and is the "gate" to heaven.This you find it only on orthodox bible.
As for hell,if we take it logically ,it has to be a place were bad people go,or it will not be fair for the good people and they all will start behaving bad and make sins.....like ISIS is doing now.

[zolace]

I believe that if one is "wicked".......he is dealt with in this life.  It's called karma.I do not believe that there's a judgemental "god" who sits on a throne and passes sentence on his "creations"......

So that either means you believe 'god' is ok with the wicked, or...

that 'god' does not exist.  If the latter, then, what makes someone wicked?   If there is no absolute standard, then are you saying that Hitler is wicked by one standard, not so by another, and who is anyone to judge which standard is wrong?

[BADecker]

"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.

"The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17.

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish. Psalm 146:4

Revelation 6:9-11

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.



EDIT: Seems to me that, before the final judgment, the dead remain inhabiting the earth. After all, the souls of the righteous were made up of people who had died throughout all the ages. So the dead that inhabit the earth are from all ages as well. Their souls are in prison on earth, being held for the great day of judgment.

[zolace]

Obviously in this life, the evil can prosper while those who do good may suffer.  So, we can see evil is not always dealt with in this life.

[BrianM]

OH NO, not another religious thread. God damn it, keep al that BS to your self 

[noviapriani]

I believe that if one is "wicked".......he is dealt with in this life.  It's called karma.I do not believe that there's a judgemental "god" who sits on a throne and passes sentence on his "creations"......

So that either means you believe 'god' is ok with the wicked, or...

that 'god' does not exist.  If the latter, then, what makes someone wicked?   If there is no absolute standard, then are you saying that Hitler is wicked by one standard, not so by another, and who is anyone to judge which standard is wrong?

Shit happens - good people get hurt and bad people sometimes get a pass.  But mostly I believe that "evil" folks bring their own karma and it bites them - eventually.

Life is not fair.

[Rigon]

Obviously in this life, the evil can prosper while those who do good may suffer.  So, we can see evil is not always dealt with in this life.

You are an intellectually challenged emotional cripple who hides his mental deficiencies behind a religious label "christian".

You have no moral compass; you can't even tell up from down.  "Wicked" is what you learned last week in Sunday School, in whatever superstitious beliefs system you learned it, in whatever "hell" your religious brain washers programmed you to believe.

Do you honestly think anyone cares for your opinion?

[zolace]

Three hells!

The starting point for such an investigation can be none other than the very book from which Christians profess to derive their doctrine of hell - the Bible! By scrutinizing its pages, one can strip away the theological trappings of ancient and medieval myth and fabrication and discover the true teaching on the subject.

One's first surprise is that the Bible speaks of not one but of three different "hells"! In the widely used King James Version, three totally different Greek words - words with totally different meanings-are translated by the one English word hell. The three words are hades, tartaros and gehenna.

In biblical usage, the Greek word hades - used only II times in the New Testament - is roughly equivalent to the Old Testament Hebrew word sheol, meaning grave or pit (compare Acts 2:27 with Psalm 16:10). Hades may be likened to a hole in the ground. In the Bible it has nothing to do with fire.

Most modern biblical translators admit that the use of the English word hell to translate hades and sheol is an unfortunate and misleading practice.

Why?

Because in seeing the word hell, many readers impute to it the traditional connotation of an ever-burning inferno - when this was never remotely intended in the Greek language or in Old English!

In its true biblical usage, hades does indeed refer to the state or abode of the dead - but not in the sense of spirits walking around in some sort of "shadowy realm." Hades is simply the abode we call the grave. All the dead go to this hell.

 

The Second Hell

The second hell of the Bible, tartaros, is mentioned only once in scripture - in II Peter 2:4: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell[tartaroo], and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment.

Following their rebellion to unseat God from His throne (Isa. 14:12-14; Rev. 12:4), the archangel Lucifer (now Satan) and a third of the created angels (demons) were ejected from heaven (Luke 10:18). They were cast down to tartaros, a place or condition of restraint that God has imposed on the mutinous angels as they await ultimate judgment (Jude 6; I Cor. 6:3).

Tartaros, then, is a "hell" that applies only to evil, rebellious angels or demons. It is interesting that the ancient Greeks used this word to describe the place in which Zeus confined the rebellious Titans. Nowhere in the Bible is there any mention of men being put into this particular "hell."

 

The Third Hell

So far, we have seen that the first hell of the Bible - hades - is simply the grave. The second hell -tartaros - a place or condition of restraint for demons. What, then, is the third hell of the Bible?

Surely, it must be the old fashioned Bible "hell"- the literal ever-burning inferno, the place of eternal torment of the damned!

Or is it?

Did you ever notice that the Greek word used by the writers of the New Testament for this third hell is gehenna? It comes from the Hebrew Gai Hinnom, meaning"valley of Hinnom." Hinnom is a deep, narrow ravine located to the south and southwest of Jerusalem. It is to this hell that I recently traveled. But what does this valley have to do with the traditional Christian concept of "hell"? The answer may surprise you!

 

Lunch in Hell

Gehenna - the valley of Hinnom - is today a relatively pleasant place. In recent years, grass and even some flowers have taken over portions of the valley floor, and there are plenty of trees to provide shade from the scorching sun (see photos on these pages - {Editor's note: Sorry, pictures not included.}).

I descended into the valley by means of a rocky dirt path. A small dog - no three-headed Cerberus! - barked briefly, then returned to scavenging in a small cave near the path. Further on down the valley two boys were kicking a soccer ball between them.

I sought refuge from the heat of the noon sun under a large tree, and took out my lunch. A few birds came by for a handout. The surroundings were not unlike those of a typical city park.

After enjoying a leisurely lunch, I headed up out of the valley and proceeded unimpeded toward the Jaffa Gate. My memory of the valley is one of a pleasant and relaxing haven in the midst of a hot and tiring walking tour of Jerusalem.

Gehenna, in short, is a far cry from the hell of Dante or from what this valley was like in Jesus day!

The valley was not always such a pleasant place. In the Old Testament it was a place of abominable pagan rites, including infant sacrifice. It was there that the apostate kings Ahaz and Manasseh made their children "pass through the fire" to the god Molech. The rites were specifically celebrated in Tophet, the "place of abhorrence," one of the chief groves in the valley

King Josiah of ancient Judah finally put an end to these abominations. He defiled the valley, rendering it ceremonially unclean (II Kings 23:10). Later the valley became the cesspool and city dump of Jerusalem - a repository for sewage, refuse and animal carcasses. The bodies of despised criminals were also burned there along with the rubbish. Fires burned continuously, feeding on a constant supply of garbage and refuse.

Aceldama, the "field of blood", purchased with the money Judas received for the betrayal of Christ (Matt. 27: was also in part of the valley of Hinnom.

 

Gehenna-and the Lake of Fire

What, then, does this valley called gehenna have to do with hell?

Notice. At the end of this age, at the crisis at the end of this world's civilization, the prophesied Beast of the book of Revelation - a Satan-inspired political dictator and a miracle-working religious figure, the False Prophet, working with him will resist the re-establishment of the government of God by fighting against Jesus Christ at His Second Coming. Their fate is revealed by the apostle John: "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet.... These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone" (Rev. 19:20).

Where will this temporary lake of fire - this "hell" - be?

The prophet Isaiah wrote of this lake of fire prepared for the Beast: "For Tophet [in the valley of Hinnom] is ordained of old, yea, for the king it is prepared, he hath made it deep and large, the pile thereof is fire and wood, the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it" (Isa. 30:33).

One thousand years later, Satan himself will be cast into this rekindled fiery lake where the Beast and False Prophet were cast! (See Revelation 20:10.)

But what of the wicked who have died over the many millennia? Does the Bible say that they are now suffering fiery punishment for their sins in a lake of fire?

Absolutely not!

In the sequence of Revelation 20 - read it for yourself - the incorrigibly wicked are resurrected to be thrown into the lake of fire after Satan is cast there! Read it, in Revelation 20:15.

What, then, will become of these wicked? Will they writhe in flames for eternity?

No!

The wicked will be burned up in the intense heat of the coming gehenna fire on earth. They will be consumed, annihilated, destroyed!

This punishment will be everlasting - permanent and final. The Bible calls it the "second death" (Rev. 20:14; 21: - from which there is no possibility of a further resurrection.

The Bible does teach eternal punishment, but not eternal punishing.

The prophet Malachi provides a graphic description. "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble, and the day that cometh shall burn them up…(4:1). To the righteous, God says that the wicked shall be "ashes under the soles of your feet . (Mal. 4:3).

http://home.sprynet.com/~pabco/tohell.htm

I actually read recently of five words for hell and as zimmah  mentioned .  One Hebrew, four Greek.  The above is just referring to the Greek, so the difference between the two is the word 'Abyss'.

Sheol (from the Hebrew)

Hades, Gehenna, Tartaroo and Abyss.

Abyss is found nine times, and is translated 'bottomless pit' in Revelation, according to Perry Stone's 'Secrets from Beyond the Grave'.

Got the book last summer when camping, but, lost the driver in reading it, so I have not gotten far with it.

[Rigon]

So let's assume that if a tree fell on a house and killed someone, and your "god" could have prevented it, does that make your "god" Evil? because he didn\t stop that tree?

[zolace]

So let's assume that if a tree fell on a house and killed someone, and your "god" could have prevented it, does that make your "god" Evil? because he didn\t stop that tree?

Ok, lets ask that in the context of what the Bible says happens.

If a tree fell on a house and killed someone who has a sinful nature prone to evil, someone though who has peace with his Creator, and as a result enter into the present of this Creator with great joy and no longer battles with this sinful nature (it now being gone), and is now in a place where there is no more pain or sorrow.....

if this Creator could have prevented this someone from entering into such joy, etc, but did not prevent it, does this make this Creator evil?


Nah.

[Rigon]

So let's assume that if a tree fell on a house and killed someone, and your "god" could have prevented it, does that make your "god" Evil? because he didn\t stop that tree?

Ok, lets ask that in the context of what the Bible says happens.

If a tree fell on a house and killed someone who has a sinful nature prone to evil, someone though who has peace with his Creator, and as a result enter into the present of this Creator with great joy and no longer battles with this sinful nature (it now being gone), and is now in a place where there is no more pain or sorrow.....

if this Creator could have prevented this someone from entering into such joy, etc, but did not prevent it, does this make this Creator evil?


Nah.

You are in no position to challenge anyone else's honesty, much less to pontificate about what is "wicked", or "evil". You can't tell which end is up without one of your religious brainwashers programming what you believe.

[zolace]

So let's assume that if a tree fell on a house and killed someone, and your "god" could have prevented it, does that make your "god" Evil? because he didn\t stop that tree?

Ok, lets ask that in the context of what the Bible says happens.

If a tree fell on a house and killed someone who has a sinful nature prone to evil, someone though who has peace with his Creator, and as a result enter into the present of this Creator with great joy and no longer battles with this sinful nature (it now being gone), and is now in a place where there is no more pain or sorrow.....

if this Creator could have prevented this someone from entering into such joy, etc, but did not prevent it, does this make this Creator evil?


Nah.

You are in no position to challenge anyone else's honesty, much less to pontificate about what is "wicked", or "evil". You can't tell which end is up without one of your religious brainwashers programming what you believe.

No, rather, you twisted the question by leaving out the details.

If I went about saying John just hit Joe in the stomach and asked if John should be brought up on charges, and left out the pertinent fact that they were boxers in a ring, I would be misrepresenting what happened as you did.

Now, I don't necessarily know that you did so purposely, but, your refusal to own up your mistake is pretty clear now.

[RodeoX]

It would be great if the wicked were punished and the good rewarded after death. Unfortunately there is no evidence of anything except oblivion for us all. That's why I'm for punishing and rewarding behavior in this life.

[zolace]

I believe that if one is "wicked".......he is dealt with in this life.  It's called karma.I do not believe that there's a judgemental "god" who sits on a throne and passes sentence on his "creations"......

So that either means you believe 'god' is ok with the wicked, or...

that 'god' does not exist.  If the latter, then, what makes someone wicked?   If there is no absolute standard, then are you saying that Hitler is wicked by one standard, not so by another, and who is anyone to judge which standard is wrong?

Shit happens - good people get hurt and bad people sometimes get a pass.  But mostly I believe that "evil" folks bring their own karma and it bites them - eventually.

Life is not fair.

Sometimes?

Do you really think people are respnsible for their choices?  Has science proven that?

Because, otherwise, there is no evil.  It is what it is.  No more evil than a tree falling on a house and hurting someone.

[Gimpeline]

You die. Your brain rot and you are no more.
End of story

[flyingcatt]

No matter if you are Hitler or the Pope, you are going to die and have ethernal nothingness, deal with it.

[ronaldo40]

that in my religion is Islam, they will receive the appropriate torment their crimes in the world during

[BADecker]

You die. Your brain rot and you are no more.
End of story

It's a shame that someone as intelligent as you doesn't value himself/herself any more than that. 

[dinda22]

they certainly are worth being tortured or more cruelly for heinous criminals

[BADecker]

In my post at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=770346.msg8688563#msg8688563, the EDIT needs clarification. The dead remaining on the earth are not all the dead, but only the dead wicked. The souls of the dead righteous are held in a paradise in Heaven, before God Himself.

At the final judgment, the souls of ALL people will be re-united with their bodies, so that they can receive what is due them for things done on the earth. Those who had acknowledged Jesus as having taken punishment for the things they had done wrong while on earth, will be taken into a life of joy and glory, forever with God - since Jesus took their punishment. The dead wicked, those who did not acknowledge Jesus, will be sent to the lake of fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels, "where their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched."

[Brewins]

Only way to be sure would be become a wicked person, then killing myself at the peak of my wickedness, and see what happens.

I'm not willing to test it.

Any volunter to be the test subject?

[Sheldor333]

My opinion is that it happens same as to the rest of the people, we die and that's it. Nothing more to it.

[BADecker]

I actually read recently of five words for hell and as zimmah  mentioned .  One Hebrew, four Greek.  The above is just referring to the Greek, so the difference between the two is the word 'Abyss'.

Sheol (from the Hebrew)

Hades, Gehenna, Tartaroo and Abyss.

Abyss is found nine times, and is translated 'bottomless pit' in Revelation, according to Perry Stone's 'Secrets from Beyond the Grave'.

Got the book last summer when camping, but, lost the driver in reading it, so I have not gotten far with it.

So, if we had a bottomless pit here on earth, where would it be? Well, first, you have to imagine what a bottomless pit would be like, especially on a planet. The only place that could match a bottomless pit on earth would be, right at the center of the earth.

In other words, if there were a pit on earth that didn't have a bottom, it would be at the center of the earth. The reason for this is that gravity is pulling equally in all directions at the center of the earth. The stuff at the center of the earth might have a lot of pressure on it, but it doesn't have any measurable gravitational force acting on it, because the earth's gravity is pulling equally in every direction. Because of this, if there were a pit that went down to the center of the earth, it really couldn't have a bottom even if it did.

The Revelation talks about the devil being cast into the bottomless pit, and it is locked and sealed over him. Because of this, we probably won't find the way down ourselves, because the pit has been sealed.

Now, what better place to stick the devil for "a thousand years" than a pit that is as hot as the center of the earth? The devil is being shown what is awaiting him throughout eternity when he is thrown into the lake of fire.

[BrianM]

"What happens to the wicked upon death?"

The wallet will not be able to sync!

[Daniel91]

They will be saved through God's grace in last days!

[BADecker]

They will be saved through God's grace in last days!

Usually the term "wicked" refers to people who do not believe in the salvation that God provided through Jesus. A wicked person who has come to faith in Jesus, MUST change his ways at least a little. If he won't change, he is placing himself in the dangerous position of maybe losing his salvation.

[Lethn]

Let me give you the answer that everyone should have given and must give if they are honest with themselves: We don't fucking know, we don't even know what happens after death in general, never mind people we would generally consider 'bad' anyone who claims otherwise is just making it up.

[BADecker]

Let me give you the answer that everyone should have given and must give if they are honest with themselves: We don't fucking know, we don't even know what happens after death in general, never mind people we would generally consider 'bad' anyone who claims otherwise is just making it up.

Yes, but, this is something that you believe, just like those who know about things of faith, KNOW IT.

[Lethn]

You just pretend to know BADecker and you're not convincing.

[BADecker]

You just pretend to know BADecker and you're not convincing.

Karl Lentz - Man is Limitless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Wcsb5CJZw

[CozyLife]

Personally I believe that when your body dies, whatever you think will happen, will happen. This explains why Christians see Jesus, Muslems see Amed (Haha!), and Jewish people see Moses. For me, I believe I'll incarnate on another planet as a being of another race. I also believe that people can stay in spirit as long as they need or wish to.

[cooldgamer]

Personally I believe that when your body dies, whatever you think will happen, will happen. This explains why Christians see Jesus, Muslems see Amed (Haha!), and Jewish people see Moses. For me, I believe I'll incarnate on another planet as a being of another race. I also believe that people can stay in spirit as long as they need or wish to.

This actually is a huge possibility.  When the body is about to die it releases a ton of DMT, which is why time seems to slow down and you 'see the light'.  When smoked as a recreational drug, DMT is known to blast the user into a spiritual dimension where a few minutes can seem like nearly eternity.  So during the few minutes when your brain is still active before you're completely dead, you're on a trip that feels like it's lasting sooo much longer.  Of course, if your brain is damaged by whatever death you have then you may not get that experience

If you want more info: http://www.academia.edu/1970764/Role_of_DMT_in_Near_Death_Experience

[cloverme]

The mine bitcoins in a room without air conditioning.

[naypalm]

Oh Lard.

[munsey]

I cant believe that you definitely compose this, but i do not really know what to say because nobody has never die and return and explain better what really happen there.

[Rigon]

Zolace,I have little doubt that in your infinite desire to seek the blissful state of Ignorance that you love so well, you'll just delete this thread as if it never happened.

[zolace]

Zolace,I have little doubt that in your infinite desire to seek the blissful state of Ignorance that you love so well, you'll just delete this thread as if it never happened.

I would if the only posts were yours, given their lack of value.  Which is sad - you have potential.

But others have posted here things of interest, so, fear not.  I will just go back to ignoring you (which apparently is the consensus of alot of folk here).  When you treat the earlier question with honesty, then we are back on track.

Basically, I gave you an answer using the Biblical context - makes sense, the question has to do with what the bible teaches.

[zolace]

But, if you want to use your own context, you will need to lay out what your context is.    Why is killing anyone, for example, evil?

So, till you wish to stop acting like some lawyer who is more interested in winning a case than in truth and integrity....

[PeanutCoins]

The wicked upon death are condemned by the cyber gods to an eternity of arguing on FS. 

[Rigon]

But, if you want to use your own context, you will need to lay out what your context is.    Why is killing anyone, for example, evil?

So, till you wish to stop acting like some lawyer who is more interested in winning a case than in truth and integrity....

I'm not the one who's living in fear.Everyone else is ignoring you.  Not like it should come as a surprise to you.No one has ever displayed any support for your beliefs.  Your's are not religious beliefs.

[sana8410]

Three hells!

The starting point for such an investigation can be none other than the very book from which Christians profess to derive their doctrine of hell - the Bible! By scrutinizing its pages, one can strip away the theological trappings of ancient and medieval myth and fabrication and discover the true teaching on the subject.

One's first surprise is that the Bible speaks of not one but of three different "hells"! In the widely used King James Version, three totally different Greek words - words with totally different meanings-are translated by the one English word hell. The three words are hades, tartaros and gehenna.

In biblical usage, the Greek word hades - used only II times in the New Testament - is roughly equivalent to the Old Testament Hebrew word sheol, meaning grave or pit (compare Acts 2:27 with Psalm 16:10). Hades may be likened to a hole in the ground. In the Bible it has nothing to do with fire.

Most modern biblical translators admit that the use of the English word hell to translate hades and sheol is an unfortunate and misleading practice.

Why?

Because in seeing the word hell, many readers impute to it the traditional connotation of an ever-burning inferno - when this was never remotely intended in the Greek language or in Old English!

In its true biblical usage, hades does indeed refer to the state or abode of the dead - but not in the sense of spirits walking around in some sort of "shadowy realm." Hades is simply the abode we call the grave. All the dead go to this hell.

 

The Second Hell

The second hell of the Bible, tartaros, is mentioned only once in scripture - in II Peter 2:4: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell[tartaroo], and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment.

Following their rebellion to unseat God from His throne (Isa. 14:12-14; Rev. 12:4), the archangel Lucifer (now Satan) and a third of the created angels (demons) were ejected from heaven (Luke 10:18). They were cast down to tartaros, a place or condition of restraint that God has imposed on the mutinous angels as they await ultimate judgment (Jude 6; I Cor. 6:3).

Tartaros, then, is a "hell" that applies only to evil, rebellious angels or demons. It is interesting that the ancient Greeks used this word to describe the place in which Zeus confined the rebellious Titans. Nowhere in the Bible is there any mention of men being put into this particular "hell."

 

The Third Hell

So far, we have seen that the first hell of the Bible - hades - is simply the grave. The second hell -tartaros - a place or condition of restraint for demons. What, then, is the third hell of the Bible?

Surely, it must be the old fashioned Bible "hell"- the literal ever-burning inferno, the place of eternal torment of the damned!

Or is it?

Did you ever notice that the Greek word used by the writers of the New Testament for this third hell is gehenna? It comes from the Hebrew Gai Hinnom, meaning"valley of Hinnom." Hinnom is a deep, narrow ravine located to the south and southwest of Jerusalem. It is to this hell that I recently traveled. But what does this valley have to do with the traditional Christian concept of "hell"? The answer may surprise you!

 

Lunch in Hell

Gehenna - the valley of Hinnom - is today a relatively pleasant place. In recent years, grass and even some flowers have taken over portions of the valley floor, and there are plenty of trees to provide shade from the scorching sun (see photos on these pages - {Editor's note: Sorry, pictures not included.}).

I descended into the valley by means of a rocky dirt path. A small dog - no three-headed Cerberus! - barked briefly, then returned to scavenging in a small cave near the path. Further on down the valley two boys were kicking a soccer ball between them.

I sought refuge from the heat of the noon sun under a large tree, and took out my lunch. A few birds came by for a handout. The surroundings were not unlike those of a typical city park.

After enjoying a leisurely lunch, I headed up out of the valley and proceeded unimpeded toward the Jaffa Gate. My memory of the valley is one of a pleasant and relaxing haven in the midst of a hot and tiring walking tour of Jerusalem.

Gehenna, in short, is a far cry from the hell of Dante or from what this valley was like in Jesus day!

The valley was not always such a pleasant place. In the Old Testament it was a place of abominable pagan rites, including infant sacrifice. It was there that the apostate kings Ahaz and Manasseh made their children "pass through the fire" to the god Molech. The rites were specifically celebrated in Tophet, the "place of abhorrence," one of the chief groves in the valley

King Josiah of ancient Judah finally put an end to these abominations. He defiled the valley, rendering it ceremonially unclean (II Kings 23:10). Later the valley became the cesspool and city dump of Jerusalem - a repository for sewage, refuse and animal carcasses. The bodies of despised criminals were also burned there along with the rubbish. Fires burned continuously, feeding on a constant supply of garbage and refuse.

Aceldama, the "field of blood", purchased with the money Judas received for the betrayal of Christ (Matt. 27: was also in part of the valley of Hinnom.

 

Gehenna-and the Lake of Fire

What, then, does this valley called gehenna have to do with hell?

Notice. At the end of this age, at the crisis at the end of this world's civilization, the prophesied Beast of the book of Revelation - a Satan-inspired political dictator and a miracle-working religious figure, the False Prophet, working with him will resist the re-establishment of the government of God by fighting against Jesus Christ at His Second Coming. Their fate is revealed by the apostle John: "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet.... These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone" (Rev. 19:20).

Where will this temporary lake of fire - this "hell" - be?

The prophet Isaiah wrote of this lake of fire prepared for the Beast: "For Tophet [in the valley of Hinnom] is ordained of old, yea, for the king it is prepared, he hath made it deep and large, the pile thereof is fire and wood, the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it" (Isa. 30:33).

One thousand years later, Satan himself will be cast into this rekindled fiery lake where the Beast and False Prophet were cast! (See Revelation 20:10.)

But what of the wicked who have died over the many millennia? Does the Bible say that they are now suffering fiery punishment for their sins in a lake of fire?

Absolutely not!

In the sequence of Revelation 20 - read it for yourself - the incorrigibly wicked are resurrected to be thrown into the lake of fire after Satan is cast there! Read it, in Revelation 20:15.

What, then, will become of these wicked? Will they writhe in flames for eternity?

No!

The wicked will be burned up in the intense heat of the coming gehenna fire on earth. They will be consumed, annihilated, destroyed!

This punishment will be everlasting - permanent and final. The Bible calls it the "second death" (Rev. 20:14; 21: - from which there is no possibility of a further resurrection.

The Bible does teach eternal punishment, but not eternal punishing.

The prophet Malachi provides a graphic description. "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble, and the day that cometh shall burn them up…(4:1). To the righteous, God says that the wicked shall be "ashes under the soles of your feet . (Mal. 4:3).

http://home.sprynet.com/~pabco/tohell.htm

I actually read recently of five words for hell and as zimmah  mentioned .  One Hebrew, four Greek.  The above is just referring to the Greek, so the difference between the two is the word 'Abyss'.

Sheol (from the Hebrew)

Hades, Gehenna, Tartaroo and Abyss.

Abyss is found nine times, and is translated 'bottomless pit' in Revelation, according to Perry Stone's 'Secrets from Beyond the Grave'.

Got the book last summer when camping, but, lost the driver in reading it, so I have not gotten far with it.

The bottomless pit, or pit is as far as i know only found in revelation, Abyss a couple times in other versions in the NT. I would say its the same as tartaros since it always refers to fallen angels. Good luck trying to figure out what is in revelation when referring to bottomless pit, its all symbolic. None of it suggests mankind ever spends any time there

[Mr.Bitty]

I believe that if one is "wicked".......he is dealt with in this life.  It's called karma.I do not believe that there's a judgemental "god" who sits on a throne and passes sentence on his "creations"......

So that either means you believe 'god' is ok with the wicked, or...

that 'god' does not exist.  If the latter, then, what makes someone wicked?   If there is no absolute standard, then are you saying that Hitler is wicked by one standard, not so by another, and who is anyone to judge which standard is wrong?

Shit happens - good people get hurt and bad people sometimes get a pass.  But mostly I believe that "evil" folks bring their own karma and it bites them - eventually.

Life is not fair.

Sometimes?

Do you really think people are respnsible for their choices?  Has science proven that?

Because, otherwise, there is no evil.  It is what it is.  No more evil than a tree falling on a house and hurting someone.

If you've not demonstrated anything else, it is the "wickedness" of how your "religious " beliefs have corrupted your mind.; you can't determine truth from lies; reality from fantasy.

If that's not "evil", I don't know what is.

[zolace]

Sana8410,Actually, being raised a Roman Catholic, I am familiar enough with purgatory.

Unfortunately, I was not taught about the grace of Jesus, God's Son.  About Jesus, but, that he died to set me free, that never clicked.  I was moved by his death on the cross, but, was quite sometime before I came to realize He did that on behalf of me, to see me free.

[Rigon]

Sana8410,Actually, being raised a Roman Catholic, I am familiar enough with purgatory.

Unfortunately, I was not taught about the grace of Jesus, God's Son.  About Jesus, but, that he died to set me free, that never clicked.  I was moved by his death on the cross, but, was quite sometime before I came to realize He did that on behalf of me, to see me free.

But later you became an insufferable evangelical Protestant who never learned to shut  up.including becoming an insufferable liar.

[zolace]

Part of that is the RC church where I went being lukewarm to the truth of the gospels; part of the blindness was due to my own sin.  

[zolace]

Sana8410,Actually, being raised a Roman Catholic, I am familiar enough with purgatory.

Unfortunately, I was not taught about the grace of Jesus, God's Son.  About Jesus, but, that he died to set me free, that never clicked.  I was moved by his death on the cross, but, was quite sometime before I came to realize He did that on behalf of me, to see me free.

But later you became an insufferable evangelical Protestant who never learned to shut  up.including becoming an insufferable liar.

Not a Protestant.  Not if one means by that one that attends a church that came out of the protestant reformation.There were churches outside the RC before that reformation.

[zolace]

But, often folks think of Protestant as one that is not RC.  That is common.  Of course, not technically true.  One can belong to the Orthodox churches, not Protestant or RC or Baptist, etc.

[Rigon]

But, often folks think of Protestant as one that is not RC.  That is common.  Of course, not technically true.  One can belong to the Orthodox churches, not Protestant or RC or Baptist, etc.

No Christian believes that Dinosaurs and Human beings lived together and ate grass  in the garden of Eden.No Church, RC; Calvanist; or otherwise believes your bullshit.

[gatra]

I do believe that you most definitely become compost.

+1
but careful, you may become wicked compost!
don't worry, I believe it's just the same as saint compost...

[zolace]

So,Sana8410,From what the book is sayign the word abyss (Greek abussos) is found nine times in the New Testament.

Translated seven times as "bottomless pit' in Revelation.


The other two are in Luke and Romans.

Luke 8:31 -  They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss

Romans 10:7 -   or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (That is, to bring Christ up from the dead.)

[sana8410]

So,Sana8410,From what the book is sayign the word abyss (Greek abussos) is found nine times in the New Testament.

Translated seven times as "bottomless pit' in Revelation.


The other two are in Luke and Romans.

Luke 8:31 -  They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss

Romans 10:7 -   or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (That is, to bring Christ up from the dead.)

Romans 10;7, the word 'deep' is in the KJV for Abyss and the context is talking about a desire to see Israel saved so i don't know what that would mean in that context

In luke 8;31 the demons don't want to go into the Abyss, which is the bottomless pit we can conclude. In Revelation an angel comes from Heaven with a key to the bottomless pit, he opens it and smoke comes out, and a beast comes out and makes war against the 2 witnesses. So the Abyss at some point becomes part of the prison for the demons, and at some point they are locked and sealed back in this pit, but revelation tends to span through a time period that we can't understand. An example of this is maybe in REV 17;8

[Rigon]

God created evil people to throw in hell. Kind a sadistic guy. I wonder if he also tortured puppies as a kid! Hmmm this God why would he created the evil?

[zolace]

So,Sana8410,From what the book is sayign the word abyss (Greek abussos) is found nine times in the New Testament.

Translated seven times as "bottomless pit' in Revelation.


The other two are in Luke and Romans.

Luke 8:31 -  They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss

Romans 10:7 -   or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (That is, to bring Christ up from the dead.)

Romans 10;7, the word 'deep' is in the KJV for Abyss and the context is talking about a desire to see Israel saved so i don't know what that would mean in that context

In luke 8;31 the demons don't want to go into the Abyss, which is the bottomless pit we can conclude. In Revelation an angel comes from Heaven with a key to the bottomless pit, he opens it and smoke comes out, and a beast comes out and makes war against the 2 witnesses. So the Abyss at some point becomes part of the prison for the demons, and at some point they are locked and sealed back in this pit, but revelation tends to span through a time period that we can't understand. An example of this is maybe in REV 17;8

Yeah, I did not add any conclusions intentionally about those verses - just wanted to note that they are out there.And, yes, apart from the Romans verse, they do appear to all apply to demons/fallen angels.

[sana8410]

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Notice, was, is not, and yet is which means we can't know when all this takes place really, just some time table only God knows. However the bottomless pit is still only in reference to wicked angels as some prison, but maybe a more restraining prison then tatoros. So even if this can be seen as a 4th hell (which i don't believe it is) it still is for demons not mankind

[umair127]

The same thing that happens to the devout, the wonderful, and the fundamentalist liar like yourself zolace.  You decompose and your matter changes form and off you go into whatever cycle your elements take you.  

[zolace]

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Notice, was, is not, and yet is which means we can't know when all this takes place really, just some time table only God knows. However the bottomless pit is still only in reference to wicked angels as some prison, but maybe a more restraining prison then tatoros. So even if this can be seen as a 4th hell (which i don't believe it is) it still is for demons not mankind

Now, is the author agreeing or not that the beast and false prophet have been there in lake the entire 1000 years?  They were  put there at the start, and they are still there after 1000 years.

[sana8410]

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Notice, was, is not, and yet is which means we can't know when all this takes place really, just some time table only God knows. However the bottomless pit is still only in reference to wicked angels as some prison, but maybe a more restraining prison then tatoros. So even if this can be seen as a 4th hell (which i don't believe it is) it still is for demons not mankind

Now, is the author agreeing or not that the beast and false prophet have been there in lake the entire 1000 years?  They were  put there at the start, and they are still there after 1000 years.

I can't speak to the 1000 years because i haven't decided what it means exactly, but i'm leaning toward a future time, because the beast and false prophet in my mind still exist here.

[sana8410]

The beast and false prophet are works of satan which could mean his works are destroyed before him, thus where the beast and false are


Is your question leading to proving eternal torment in some way?

[zolace]

The beast and false prophet are works of satan which could mean his works are destroyed before him, thus where the beast and false are


Is your question leading to proving eternal torment in some way?

Not so much leading to eternal, but, at least leading to a time period.It is clear that the two are in this lake for a period of time, and not instantly destroyed when cast into the lake.

[JimClone]

Ashes to Ashes dust to dust that's it.

[sana8410]

Right, a period of time which is not eternal. The term forever found in the bible translates 'aion' in the Greek meaning a period of time. It could be though some, depending on how great the sin, takes more time in the fire
Cor 3;13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap

[zolace]

Right, a period of time which is not eternal. The term forever found in the bible translates 'aion' in the Greek meaning a period of time. It could be though some, depending on how great the sin, takes more time in the fire
Cor 3;13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap

Ok, for someone reason I was under the impression that your position was that the punishment was instantaneous.

That they were instantly consumed when cast into the lake of fire.  How long they are there is dependent on their judgment?

[Rigon]

Right, a period of time which is not eternal. The term forever found in the bible translates 'aion' in the Greek meaning a period of time. It could be though some, depending on how great the sin, takes more time in the fire
Cor 3;13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap

Ok, for someone reason I was under the impression that your position was that the punishment was instantaneous.

That they were instantly consumed when cast into the lake of fire.  How long they are there is dependent on their judgment?

Perhaps your reading comprehension skill ( or lack, thereof) let you down, Zolace.Your childish excuse about other people's reading skill is wearing thin, Zolace.

[btcmaze]

Wicked guys gets sad after death.

Good guys stay happy  

Wicked guys lose

Good guys win

Anyone joining btcmazism?

And i am Saint Maze and thee shall be happy


Version 2:
Good guys will become humans

Bad guys will make up the rest

That will explain population explosion

Version 3: Opposite of version 2.

[zolace]

Right, a period of time which is not eternal. The term forever found in the bible translates 'aion' in the Greek meaning a period of time. It could be though some, depending on how great the sin, takes more time in the fire
Cor 3;13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap

Ok, for someone reason I was under the impression that your position was that the punishment was instantaneous.

That they were instantly consumed when cast into the lake of fire.  How long they are there is dependent on their judgment?

Perhaps your reading comprehension skill ( or lack, thereof) let you down, Zolace.Your childish excuse about other people's reading skill is wearing thin, Zolace.

So, pointing out that I have read incorrectly is the same as you constantly distorting someone's words, even after they have pointed out to you that you have read incorrectly and you refusing to admit it?

See, one sign of good reading comprehension is that, when someone does get it wrong (we all do), we don't put up excuses.   Someone with poor reading comprehension does not see it even after it has been pointed out.

Your buddy tried to score on this also.  Apparently this has touched a nerve.

[sana8410]

They will be instantly put to death by fire( 2 Thess 2;8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:)at the first resurrection, for those who believe in 2 resurrections, the second death is the judgment where each answers for their works. It would be consistent when seeing such things as "it will be more tolerable for some than others", BTW, some may be consumed instantly, but some won't

Revelation 20:12 ...'and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,according to their works.'

Revelation 21:6-8 ...'And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.'

[zolace]

They will be instantly put to death by fire( 2 Thess 2;8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:)at the first resurrection, for those who believe in 2 resurrections, the second death is the judgment where each answers for their works. It would be consistent when seeing such things as "it will be more tolerable for some than others", BTW, some may be consumed instantly, but some won't

Revelation 20:12 ...'and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,according to their works.'

Revelation 21:6-8 ...'And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.'

that verse from 2 Thess need not necessarily refer to being consumed instantly, with no time in the lake of fire later.

Either, as you say, they are not existant until judgement day, or they are in some conscious existance till then, either way, in Rev 20, even the wicked from today are then judged and cast in the lake of fire.

[zolace]

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, [even] the lake of fire.
15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

[umair127]

They will be instantly put to death by fire( 2 Thess 2;8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:)at the first resurrection, for those who believe in 2 resurrections, the second death is the judgment where each answers for their works. It would be consistent when seeing such things as "it will be more tolerable for some than others", BTW, some may be consumed instantly, but some won't

Revelation 20:12 ...'and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,according to their works.'

Revelation 21:6-8 ...'And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.'

that verse from 2 Thess need not necessarily refer to being consumed instantly, with no time in the lake of fire later.

Either, as you say, they are not existant until judgement day, or they are in some conscious existance till then, either way, in Rev 20, even the wicked from today are then judged and cast in the lake of fire.

This verse is in relation to things happening "in the twinkling of an eye" so would be those destroyed,("the dead live not again until the 1000 years are done", i think Rev 20) this isn't the final judgment, its the first resurrection of the saved, which starts the 1000 year rein, and satan bound. At the end he is loosed for a short season for the final battle then judgment

That's where your Rev20; 12, 13, 14, 15 comes in and i would say the testing of works are done and ultimately burned up....everything

I'll try and expand more within a fews days when i have time, you forced my hand bringing in the 1000 year rein which i'm a starting to see as how this pans out

[latinna]

When you die your molecules are recycled rather more thoroughly than while you are alive.

[BADecker]

God created evil people to throw in hell. Kind a sadistic guy. I wonder if he also tortured puppies as a kid! Hmmm this God why would he created the evil?

God didn't create evil. The devil created evil when he created destruction.

In an effort to create freedom, God created free will. In doing so, he gave us and the devil an aspect of Himself.

Right now, if you have a knife with you, you can take it and plunge it through your arm. Most sane people wouldn't do this kind of thing without a very good reason. However, some sick people might do it and think that they liked it.

God warned Adam and Eve to not eat the fruit. The devil convinced them that they should. They did it freely. Does this make God a producer of evil? Hardly.

Suppose God hadn't given us free will. We would be like robots, like the animals, destined to follow instinct rather than freedom of choice.

Don't blame God that you are doing almost the greatest evil possible, ignoring the existence of God. It won't hurt God. It won't hurt me. It will only hurt you. It will be worse than stabbing yourself with a knife. The thing that will make it really bad for you is that you have been warned, but choose to go on your willful way anyway. Yet, nobody is going to take your freedom away from you. Why not? Because you wouldn't be you without your freedom. And God had hoped you would use your freedom in better ways.

[Mr.Bitty]

What happens to the wicked upon death?
The same thing that happens to the saved...

they die, they cease to exist.

Unless there is a resurrection, then they will be dead for all of eternity.

Now for the saved, their resurrection takes place at the second coming.
Interesting study on what that is all about.


For the rest of the dead, it takes place 1000 years later, than they face the judgment.
And another interesting study on what this is all about.
But a thumbnail sketch...

Now for the saved...
it says very plainly, every man shall die and then comes the judgment.
For the saved, the baptism is a symbolism of death.
1st Peter 4:17 their judgment takes place after the baptism.
They are judged by Jesus.

The rest of the dead, as said above, their judgment takes place 1000 years after the second coming.
These are judged by God.
Now what is the judgment?
What is he judging?
How long does this judgment take?

Actually it's incredibly fascinating how this all works...

now what is the punishment?
For those who do not make it through the judgment, the punishment is death, they die.
And their punishment is eternal, it is the second death and there is no resurrection from the second death.

That does not mean they live for eternity in a hellfire.

It says they die and they die for all of eternity, they will cease to exist and they will be completely forgotten.
It will be as if they never existed.

A way to think about that is, there have been approximately 100,000,000,000 people that have lived on this planet.
How many of them do you remember?
Even in your own family tree?


a few thousand in the history books?
As time goes by, they will be forgotten.

After their death, their bodies will be thrown into the lake of fire...
what is this lake of fire?

From the strong concordance...

valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

In the time of Jesus, this was the city dump, always burning, it is where the criminals bodies were thrown etc. etc.

What is fun with a lot of this is people change the words, it says it is an everlasting punishment, it does not say it's an everlasting punishing, the punishment is eternal.
They're not continually punished, they are punished once and for all.

It also states their bodies are thrown into this lake of fire.
So they are dead already when their bodies are thrown into this lake of fire.
Eventually this fire will go out.

Now in contrast, it is stated that Jesus will throw the false prophet and the beast into this lake of fire alive.

They will not receive the mercy of being put to death first.

All of this takes place upon the earth...
Satan and his fallen angels, they are put to death, yes they die. They do not have eternal life, they have inherent life.
Meaning they live until they are put to death.
Humans do not have inherent life.
This is why the gift to those who come up in the first resurrection, at the second coming, they receive the gift of eternal life.
It is something we do not have.
And that gift will not be given to a person of corrupt thinking...
just because you are baptized and you believe you are saved does not mean you will make it.

Now a lot of people think when the judgment of God takes place, he will be reading off what they did in their human lives.
That's not what happens.
A person that is not saved, God considers them dead, there is no record kept.
Matthew 8:22 (starting point)
So when a person is resurrected into the judgment of God, their judgment is just beginning.
Acts 17:31
now when this takes place, belief and faith are no longer relevant, because everyone will be able to see God and Jesus, the Saints, the Angels etc. etc.
And there is no longer salvation...
in essence they live another lifetime, and they are judged in righteousness...
and what is righteousness?
Psa 119:172

[zolace]

They will be instantly put to death by fire( 2 Thess 2;8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:)at the first resurrection, for those who believe in 2 resurrections, the second death is the judgment where each answers for their works. It would be consistent when seeing such things as "it will be more tolerable for some than others", BTW, some may be consumed instantly, but some won't

Revelation 20:12 ...'and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,according to their works.'

Revelation 21:6-8 ...'And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.'

that verse from 2 Thess need not necessarily refer to being consumed instantly, with no time in the lake of fire later.

Either, as you say, they are not existant until judgement day, or they are in some conscious existance till then, either way, in Rev 20, even the wicked from today are then judged and cast in the lake of fire.

This verse is in relation to things happening "in the twinkling of an eye" so would be those destroyed,("the dead live not again until the 1000 years are done", i think Rev 20) this isn't the final judgment, its the first resurrection of the saved, which starts the 1000 year rein, and satan bound. At the end he is loosed for a short season for the final battle then judgment

That's where your Rev20; 12, 13, 14, 15 comes in and i would say the testing of works are done and ultimately burned up....everything

I'll try and expand more within a fews days when i have time, you forced my hand bringing in the 1000 year rein which i'm a starting to see as how this pans out

We seem then to be in agreement that there is suffering for sin after death - just a matter of when (which hell, etc) and for how long.

When you die your molecules are recycled rather more thoroughly than while you are alive.

That has to do with the materialistic part of us.  What houses us (though some believe we are our body).

[BADecker]

Wicked guys gets sad after death.

Good guys stay happy  

Wicked guys lose

Good guys win

Anyone joining btcmazism?

And i am Saint Maze and thee shall be happy


Version 2:
Good guys will become humans

Bad guys will make up the rest

That will explain population explosion

Version 3: Opposite of version 2.

Actually, when it says in the Revelation that there will no longer be any sea, the sea that it is talking about is the sea of people who have all kinds of religions and philosophies. At that time there will only be people who believe in God... no more sea.

[Mr.Bitty]

Now granted this is just a very small thumbnail sketch, to completely study this out, there's not much of the Bible you do not use...
hundreds of Scriptures on top of hundreds of Scriptures.
Understanding judgment, judging, judgments etc., understanding what death is. What righteousness is, what are the attributes of the saved. Who Satan is what is his outcome etc. etc.
he is put to death, we walk on his ashes... can't be ruling an eternal hellfire in that state... can he?

[umair127]

What happens to the wicked upon death?
The same thing that happens to the saved...

they die, they cease to exist.

Unless there is a resurrection, then they will be dead for all of eternity.

Now for the saved, their resurrection takes place at the second coming.
Interesting study on what that is all about.


For the rest of the dead, it takes place 1000 years later, than they face the judgment.
And another interesting study on what this is all about.
But a thumbnail sketch...

Now for the saved...
it says very plainly, every man shall die and then comes the judgment.
For the saved, the baptism is a symbolism of death.
1st Peter 4:17 their judgment takes place after the baptism.
They are judged by Jesus.

The rest of the dead, as said above, their judgment takes place 1000 years after the second coming.
These are judged by God.
Now what is the judgment?
What is he judging?
How long does this judgment take?

Actually it's incredibly fascinating how this all works...

now what is the punishment?
For those who do not make it through the judgment, the punishment is death, they die.
And their punishment is eternal, it is the second death and there is no resurrection from the second death.

That does not mean they live for eternity in a hellfire.

It says they die and they die for all of eternity, they will cease to exist and they will be completely forgotten.
It will be as if they never existed.

A way to think about that is, there have been approximately 100,000,000,000 people that have lived on this planet.
How many of them do you remember?
Even in your own family tree?


a few thousand in the history books?
As time goes by, they will be forgotten.

After their death, their bodies will be thrown into the lake of fire...
what is this lake of fire?

From the strong concordance...

valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

In the time of Jesus, this was the city dump, always burning, it is where the criminals bodies were thrown etc. etc.

What is fun with a lot of this is people change the words, it says it is an everlasting punishment, it does not say it's an everlasting punishing, the punishment is eternal.
They're not continually punished, they are punished once and for all.

It also states their bodies are thrown into this lake of fire.
So they are dead already when their bodies are thrown into this lake of fire.
Eventually this fire will go out.

Now in contrast, it is stated that Jesus will throw the false prophet and the beast into this lake of fire alive.

They will not receive the mercy of being put to death first.

All of this takes place upon the earth...
Satan and his fallen angels, they are put to death, yes they die. They do not have eternal life, they have inherent life.
Meaning they live until they are put to death.
Humans do not have inherent life.
This is why the gift to those who come up in the first resurrection, at the second coming, they receive the gift of eternal life.
It is something we do not have.
And that gift will not be given to a person of corrupt thinking...
just because you are baptized and you believe you are saved does not mean you will make it.

Now a lot of people think when the judgment of God takes place, he will be reading off what they did in their human lives.
That's not what happens.
A person that is not saved, God considers them dead, there is no record kept.
Matthew 8:22 (starting point)
So when a person is resurrected into the judgment of God, their judgment is just beginning.
Acts 17:31
now when this takes place, belief and faith are no longer relevant, because everyone will be able to see God and Jesus, the Saints, the Angels etc. etc.
And there is no longer salvation...
in essence they live another lifetime, and they are judged in righteousness...
and what is righteousness?
Psa 119:172

I've heard this before that true Christians are judged in this life, and found innocent through Christ...first judgment, first Resurrection (blessed and Holy who are part of the first resurrection) You reject eternal torment, or punishment same as me, the dead eventually annihilated

[Mr.Bitty]

Wicked guys gets sad after death.

Good guys stay happy  

Wicked guys lose

Good guys win

Anyone joining btcmazism?

And i am Saint Maze and thee shall be happy


Version 2:
Good guys will become humans

Bad guys will make up the rest

That will explain population explosion

Version 3: Opposite of version 2.

Actually, when it says in the Revelation that there will no longer be any sea, the sea that it is talking about is the sea of people who have all kinds of religions and philosophies. At that time there will only be people who believe in God... no more sea.

And one must go by what the Scripture says, not what a person thinks.
Because when you go by what you think, you end up in the middle of nowhere.
And we haven't even covered, how they are resurrected in their generations starting with the last.
How long this whole period of time takes.
What is the reward of those who make it through this judgment.

There is a lot more going on than meets the eye...

[BADecker]

What happens to the wicked upon death?
The same thing that happens to the saved...

they die, they cease to exist.

Unless there is a resurrection, then they will be dead for all of eternity.

Now for the saved, their resurrection takes place at the second coming.
Interesting study on what that is all about.


For the rest of the dead, it takes place 1000 years later, than they face the judgment.
And another interesting study on what this is all about.
But a thumbnail sketch...

Now for the saved...
it says very plainly, every man shall die and then comes the judgment.
For the saved, the baptism is a symbolism of death.
1st Peter 4:17 their judgment takes place after the baptism.
They are judged by Jesus.

The rest of the dead, as said above, their judgment takes place 1000 years after the second coming.
These are judged by God.
Now what is the judgment?
What is he judging?
How long does this judgment take?

Actually it's incredibly fascinating how this all works...

now what is the punishment?
For those who do not make it through the judgment, the punishment is death, they die.
And their punishment is eternal, it is the second death and there is no resurrection from the second death.

That does not mean they live for eternity in a hellfire.

It says they die and they die for all of eternity, they will cease to exist and they will be completely forgotten.
It will be as if they never existed.

A way to think about that is, there have been approximately 100,000,000,000 people that have lived on this planet.
How many of them do you remember?
Even in your own family tree?


a few thousand in the history books?
As time goes by, they will be forgotten.

After their death, their bodies will be thrown into the lake of fire...
what is this lake of fire?

From the strong concordance...

valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

In the time of Jesus, this was the city dump, always burning, it is where the criminals bodies were thrown etc. etc.

What is fun with a lot of this is people change the words, it says it is an everlasting punishment, it does not say it's an everlasting punishing, the punishment is eternal.
They're not continually punished, they are punished once and for all.

It also states their bodies are thrown into this lake of fire.
So they are dead already when their bodies are thrown into this lake of fire.
Eventually this fire will go out.

Now in contrast, it is stated that Jesus will throw the false prophet and the beast into this lake of fire alive.

They will not receive the mercy of being put to death first.

All of this takes place upon the earth...
Satan and his fallen angels, they are put to death, yes they die. They do not have eternal life, they have inherent life.
Meaning they live until they are put to death.
Humans do not have inherent life.
This is why the gift to those who come up in the first resurrection, at the second coming, they receive the gift of eternal life.
It is something we do not have.
And that gift will not be given to a person of corrupt thinking...
just because you are baptized and you believe you are saved does not mean you will make it.

Now a lot of people think when the judgment of God takes place, he will be reading off what they did in their human lives.
That's not what happens.
A person that is not saved, God considers them dead, there is no record kept.
Matthew 8:22 (starting point)
So when a person is resurrected into the judgment of God, their judgment is just beginning.
Acts 17:31
now when this takes place, belief and faith are no longer relevant, because everyone will be able to see God and Jesus, the Saints, the Angels etc. etc.
And there is no longer salvation...
in essence they live another lifetime, and they are judged in righteousness...
and what is righteousness?
Psa 119:172

Just remember, Jesus said wording to the effect of, "... where their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched."

[umair127]

Not sure about your idea on the judgment process. The dead live after the 1000 years and so is satan loosed at that time. The battle against Gods temple then takes place and God "devours them with fire" finally and for good. This is the final lake of fire where "each man has his part" this is where i see the final judgment come into play as our sins will be tested by this fire. For some the test hard for others easier

[Mr.Bitty]

As I said you can go by what you think or you can go by what the Scriptures say...
at the end of the thousand years, Satan is loosed.
The events that surround that bring in the judgment of God.
After Satan is put to death, then comes the resurrection of the dead.

During the judgment of the dead, there is no more Satan, no more deception.

[Mr.Bitty]

If you would take a huge wall and do a flow chart on the events, it actually becomes very clear.You can't have one event occurring before another, but once it gets sorted out, creates a pretty interesting little picture.

[realbtcdealers4real]

The same that everyone else: nothing.

[zolace]

As I said you can go by what you think or you can go by what the Scriptures say...
at the end of the thousand years, Satan is loosed.
The events that surround that bring in the judgment of God.
After Satan is put to death, then comes the resurrection of the dead.

During the judgment of the dead, there is no more Satan, no more deception.

We do have in Matthew 25 the wicked ending up in the same place as the devil and his angels, in agreement with Rev 20.  Sounds like Jesus is referring to the Lake of Fire here.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:

I mention that as, sana's post which discusses three places of hell points out that the second one is just in reference to fallen angels.

But Jesus then refers to this place above that both fallen angels and the unsaved end up in.  So, the fallen angels are perhaps in one till judgement time.  Below in 2nd Peter it refers to that.

4 For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 and spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly;
7 and delivered righteous Lot, sore distressed by the lascivious life of the wicked
8 (for that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] lawless deeds):
9 the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment unto the day of judgment;

[noviapriani]

Zolace,
Jude 1:7 ...'Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.'

2 Peter 2:6 ...'And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly.'

Yes eternal fire is mentioned in your Matt 25 and also in Jude talking about the same fate for the wicked, yes they ALL end up in the lake of fire, but as in Sodom and Gomorrha the fire is no longer burning. The eternal fire is speaking of God, an eternal, consuming fire. We have discussed the forever translation

[Mr.Bitty]

At the second coming of Christ, the kingdom of God to set up and it possesses only some nations. The people that survive the second coming, create other nations that are not part of the Kingdom of God.
These are the ones that Satan deceives when he is loosed.
The Kingdom of God is not a one world government.
Those in the Kingdom of God have eternal life, that's what it means when it says there will be those who will be cast out where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth... weeping and gnashing of teeth is a place where death still occurs. Those outside the kingdom will be just flat out human and mortal, they still die.
 
Once you take the fairytale magic off of religion you find a very simple story.

[zolace]

Zolace,
Jude 1:7 ...'Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.'

2 Peter 2:6 ...'And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly.'

Yes eternal fire is mentioned in your Matt 25 and also in Jude talking about the same fate for the wicked, yes they ALL end up in the lake of fire, but as in Sodom and Gomorrah the fire is no longer burning. The eternal fire is speaking of God, an eternal, consuming fire. We have discussed the forever translation

On the first section of my thread, I am asking what happens to the Lake of Fire itself (after all have been consumed).   Is that what you are responding to?  If so, I am missing it.

[peperapijames]

hell fire will burn them to ashes

[BADecker]

Of course, then there is the true meaning of the thousand years. The thousand years is a figurative term. It started about the time that Jesus died and arose. This is when Satan was thrown into the abyss and it was locked and sealed over him.

My guess is that we are near the end of the "thousand years." We are getting to the point "As in the days of Noah ... ." Babylon in the Revelation is the banking system and the governments that work with it - read the description. Satan will destroy Babylon and burn her with fire. The people of the world will help him.

Until you understand this, you will have a hard time recognizing how the whole thing unfolds.

The lake of fire includes everything in this universe being reduced to their basic substances so that the energies will be returned to God. This includes eternal souls. "... where their worm [what's left of the soul] does not die and their fire is not quenched." This can be done over a period of time that we know as eternity, because even eternity is a thing that is limited in the realms of God, even though it holds an unendingness for us.

[noviapriani]

Zolace,
Jude 1:7 ...'Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.'

2 Peter 2:6 ...'And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly.'

Yes eternal fire is mentioned in your Matt 25 and also in Jude talking about the same fate for the wicked, yes they ALL end up in the lake of fire, but as in Sodom and Gomorrah the fire is no longer burning. The eternal fire is speaking of God, an eternal, consuming fire. We have discussed the forever translation

On the first section of my thread, I am asking what happens to the Lake of Fire itself (after all have been consumed).   Is that what you are responding to?  If so, I am missing it.

Well what do you think happens to it? God destroys the old things and creates a new heavens and earth, and i never said no one spends any time in the lake of fire
I compared the lake of fire via the bible to Sodom and Gommorha which burned out long ago, which is also called an "eternal fire" refering to God as an Eternal fire not the fire itself.

[BADecker]

Of course, then there is the true meaning of the thousand years. The thousand years is a figurative term. It started about the time that Jesus died and arose. This is when Satan was thrown into the abyss and it was locked and sealed over him.

Jesus is the angel spoken about in the Revelation that does this. He did it by His death and resurrection.

My guess is that we are near the end of the "thousand years." We are getting to the point "As in the days of Noah ... ." Babylon in the Revelation is the banking system and the governments that work with it - read the description. Satan will destroy Babylon and burn her with fire. The people of the world will help him.

Satan can do the destruction of Babylon because he is back up from the abyss. The reason he is allowed back up is because the people are asking for him (indirectly through their denial of God). Also, he is back up to be taken to the lake of fire, similar to the way a condemned criminal is walked from his cell to the execution chamber.

[zolace]

Rigon,You have three people in this thread alone who agree that the Lake of Fire exists.  Who agree that there are folks who will find there way there.

Who are discussing what exactly happens then at that point when they get there.

You disagreeing with us is fine - we are not in agreement about what happens at that point.  This thread was open to any views on the subect, not just what the bible say.

There is the view that regardless of how wicked one is in this life, they do not always reap what they sow.  That when Hitler dies, the end result is no different than when Mother Teresa dies.

[Rigon]

Rigon,You have three people in this thread alone who agree that the Lake of Fire exists.  Who agree that there are folks who will find there way there.

Who are discussing what exactly happens then at that point when they get there.

You disagreeing with us is fine - we are not in agreement about what happens at that point.  This thread was open to any views on the subect, not just what the bible say.

There is the view that regardless of how wicked one is in this life, they do not always reap what they sow.  That when Hitler dies, the end result is no different than when Mother Teresa dies.

......all of which is as relevent as the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

How can you people have a disagreement over your irrational superstitious beliefs? It's not like any of you are going to best the other with anything material. Is one of you going to die, visit this imaginary lake of fire, and then return and tell us all about it?

[zolace]

Need to still review some of the material here, but, here are a couple of other passages to put on the table:

Matthew 8:12

10 And when Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; as thou hast believed, [so] be it done unto thee. And the servant was healed in that hour.

Clearly there is a time of torment for those who choose it over their Creator.  Does not give a length of time, which seems to be the only thing in question.

And, expanded from the OP, Matthew 25:41.  Final destination of the wicked is with the devil and his angels as discussed (and I believed agreed to) earlier.  Was reading 2 Peter, and got directed to these verses.  Regarding eternal fire and eternal punishment and eternal life in these passages - all eternal, as far as the English word used.  If same Greek word, one would expect them to mean the same thing in this passage.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.
46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

[sana8410]

When you see the word Eternal in the Bible it refers to God, or all things related to God. So we did go over this, the Eternal fire is a synonym for God, its not a fire that burns forever. If you review the thread you will see what death is, you will see the wicked are destroyed, devoured, not left root or branch. Eternal Punishment is death for eternity, no hope of life again

Psalm 68:2 ...'As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.'

Why do the wicked perish at the presence of God? because God is the eternal fire, all consuming

[zolace]

When you see the word Eternal in the Bible it refers to God, or all things related to God. So we did go over this, the Eternal fire is a synonym for God, its not a fire that burns forever. If you review the thread you will see what death is, you will see the wicked are destroyed, devoured, not left root or branch. Eternal Punishment is death for eternity, no hope of life again

Psalm 68:2 ...'As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.'

Why do the wicked perish at the presence of God? because God is the eternal fire, all consuming

But this reference to the eternal fire obviously does not refer to God.  God does not need to be prepared.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels

[sana8410]

When you see the word Eternal in the Bible it refers to God, or all things related to God. So we did go over this, the Eternal fire is a synonym for God, its not a fire that burns forever. If you review the thread you will see what death is, you will see the wicked are destroyed, devoured, not left root or branch. Eternal Punishment is death for eternity, no hope of life again

Psalm 68:2 ...'As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.'

Why do the wicked perish at the presence of God? because God is the eternal fire, all consuming

But this reference to the eternal fire obviously does not refer to God.  God does not need to be prepared.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels

I don't see the point . God prepares for them their destiny, just as he prepares many things for judgment and salvation

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

[Rigon]

Do you not see that you are each demonstrating the contradictions of the Bible? Actually neither if you are wrong in your individual assessments of the topic, but your disagreement is based upon interpretations of contradicting scriptures.

[zolace]

When you see the word Eternal in the Bible it refers to God, or all things related to God. So we did go over this, the Eternal fire is a synonym for God, its not a fire that burns forever. If you review the thread you will see what death is, you will see the wicked are destroyed, devoured, not left root or branch. Eternal Punishment is death for eternity, no hope of life again

Psalm 68:2 ...'As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.'

Why do the wicked perish at the presence of God? because God is the eternal fire, all consuming

But this reference to the eternal fire obviously does not refer to God.  God does not need to be prepared.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels

I don't see the point . God prepares for them their destiny, just as he prepares many things for judgment and salvation

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

So, when Jesus goes to prepare a place, is he preparing God himself?  No.  God is not a place.In the same way, the eternal fire being prepared is no more God himself.

[Rigon]

...and most of your disagreement is between Old and New Testament; teachings of Jesus versus the teaching of Paul.Those are always going to conflict.

[zolace]

Do you not see that you are each demonstrating the contradictions of the Bible? Actually neither if you are wrong in your individual assessments of the topic, but your disagreement is based upon interpretations of contradicting scriptures.

they could indeed be actual conflicts, or, context, etc is not being considered.

There have been other supposed conflicts with various (even technical documents at work here) that are later shown not to be.  But, sometimes there are conflicts.

[BADecker]

Do you not see that you are each demonstrating the contradictions of the Bible? Actually neither if you are wrong in your individual assessments of the topic, but your disagreement is based upon interpretations of contradicting scriptures.

It only shows the contradictions in people. People simply don't have the ability to hold in their minds, all the points of the Bible. When people are able to do this, holding ALL the points in ALL their proper context, then will we finally come to understand the clear truth of God. St. Paul says that now we see in a mirror - mirrors back then were polished metal that didn't reflect very well - but then we will see God face to Face.

[Rigon]

Do you not see that you are each demonstrating the contradictions of the Bible? Actually neither if you are wrong in your individual assessments of the topic, but your disagreement is based upon interpretations of contradicting scriptures.

they could indeed be actual conflicts, or, context, etc is not being considered.

There have been other supposed conflicts with various (even technical documents at work here) that are later shown not to be.  But, sometimes there are conflicts.

I was honest when I said you both are debating superstitious bullshit, which is what you both are doing.I was simply pointing out your disagreements among the scriptures.

[zolace]

...and most of your disagreement is between Old and New Testament; teachings of Jesus versus the teaching of Paul.Those are always going to conflict.

So, it is yet to be determined if that is the case here.  If you are honest, you will admit for rooting for them to be actual true conflicts.

[Rigon]

...and most of your disagreement is between Old and New Testament; teachings of Jesus versus the teaching of Paul.Those are always going to conflict.

So, it is yet to be determined if that is the case here.  If you are honest, you will admit for rooting for them to be actual true conflicts.

Don't even think about debating honesty, zolace.  You have already proved yourself to be a lying , who will tell any lie to further your particular agenda... whatever that might be.

[zolace]

Sana8410,We are getting off track, so some examples that come mind may help or maybe not. Mount Sinai where Moses was instructed to not allow the people to come to close lest they die, and Moses face glows from the heat. Aaron's 2 sons consumed by fire for the wrong offering to God. The burning bush being not consumed because it was on Holy ground (an idea how this fire will not harm the saved in the final day).

[BADecker]

...and most of your disagreement is between Old and New Testament; teachings of Jesus versus the teaching of Paul.Those are always going to conflict.

So, it is yet to be determined if that is the case here.  If you are honest, you will admit for rooting for them to be actual true conflicts.

Don't even think about debating honesty, zolace.  You have already proved yourself to be a lying , who will tell any lie to further your particular agenda... whatever that might be.

Now, now. Be gentle with Rigon. After all, St. Paul says that we are not supposed to argue. Consider Rigon like I consider him and many others in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=778346.0.

[Rigon]

You never wish to "discuss" anything, you want to PONTIFICATE; to preach your brand of "christianity" that you've created in your  mind.
Even during the odd response from a Christian, you have never agreed with them, and even resorted to challenging their faith; judging them according to your warped beliefs and procaliming they are not "christian" according to YOU.

[zolace]

In the narrative, an angel of Yahweh is described as appearing in the bush,[6] and God is subsequently described as calling out from it to Moses, who had been grazing Jethro's flocks there.[1]When Moses starts to approach, God tells Moses to first take off his sandals, due to the place being holy ground,[7] and Moses hides his face.

I'm not suggesting this and only this describes God, or maybe i'm speculating to much ahead of myself, but its all related to God. I have showed many examples that Eternal torment is not biblical not only in thread but the other one. You have only pointed to symbolic examples that i have addressed. Have you an open mind to any of it, or will you remain hardcore certain in the dogma you grew up with?

[zolace]

...and most of your disagreement is between Old and New Testament; teachings of Jesus versus the teaching of Paul.Those are always going to conflict.

So, it is yet to be determined if that is the case here.  If you are honest, you will admit for rooting for them to be actual true conflicts.

Don't even think about debating honesty, zolace.  You have already proved yourself to be a lying , who will tell any lie to further your particular agenda... whatever that might be.

Now, now. Be gentle with Rigon. After all, St. Paul says that we are not supposed to argue. Consider Rigon like I consider him and many others in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=778346.0.

I'll be gentle,i'll be gentle sounds like a song,don't worry i won't bite Rigon,by the way, Rigon the idea is to try and work through the idea that contradictions are in the Bible

[BADecker]

Sana8410,We are getting off track, so some examples that come mind may help or maybe not. Mount Sinai where Moses was instructed to not allow the people to come to close lest they die, and Moses face glows from the heat. Aaron's 2 sons consumed by fire for the wrong offering to God. The burning bush being not consumed because it was on Holy ground (an idea how this fire will not harm the saved in the final day).

Who was the spirit that came up when King Saul used the witch of Endor to call up the Prophet Samuel just prior to the war with the Philistines where Saul lost his life?

[Rigon]

...and most of your disagreement is between Old and New Testament; teachings of Jesus versus the teaching of Paul.Those are always going to conflict.

So, it is yet to be determined if that is the case here.  If you are honest, you will admit for rooting for them to be actual true conflicts.

Don't even think about debating honesty, zolace.  You have already proved yourself to be a lying , who will tell any lie to further your particular agenda... whatever that might be.

Now, now. Be gentle with Rigon. After all, St. Paul says that we are not supposed to argue. Consider Rigon like I consider him and many others in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=778346.0.

I'll be gentle,i'll be gentle sounds like a song,don't worry i won't bite Rigon,by the way, Rigon the idea is to try and work through the idea that contradictions are in the Bible

hahahah....Sorry, zolace, but when the contradictions require random interpretation by people who can't tell reality from fantasy and live in fear of superstitions, I'll pass.

[zolace]

Sana8410,We are getting off track, so some examples that come mind may help or maybe not. Mount Sinai where Moses was instructed to not allow the people to come to close lest they die, and Moses face glows from the heat. Aaron's 2 sons consumed by fire for the wrong offering to God. The burning bush being not consumed because it was on Holy ground (an idea how this fire will not harm the saved in the final day).

Who was the spirit that came up when King Saul used the witch of Endor to call up the Prophet Samuel just prior to the war with the Philistines where Saul lost his life?

Was Samuel's spirit
“Then the woman said, ‘Whom shall I bring up for you?’ And he said, ‘Bring Samuel up for me.’ When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, ‘Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!’ And the king said to her, ‘Do not be afraid. What did you see?’ And the woman said to Saul, ‘I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.’ So he said to her, ‘What is his form?’ And said, ‘An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.’ And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.’ ”

[sana8410]

...and most of your disagreement is between Old and New Testament; teachings of Jesus versus the teaching of Paul.Those are always going to conflict.

So, it is yet to be determined if that is the case here.  If you are honest, you will admit for rooting for them to be actual true conflicts.

Don't even think about debating honesty, zolace.  You have already proved yourself to be a lying , who will tell any lie to further your particular agenda... whatever that might be.

Now, now. Be gentle with Rigon. After all, St. Paul says that we are not supposed to argue. Consider Rigon like I consider him and many others in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=778346.0.

I'll be gentle,i'll be gentle sounds like a song,don't worry i won't bite Rigon,by the way, Rigon the idea is to try and work through the idea that contradictions are in the Bible

hahahah....Sorry, zolace, but when the contradictions require random interpretation by people who can't tell reality from fantasy and live in fear of superstitions, I'll pass.

I believe what zolace is saying (and if so, I agree) is that it is not an issue of there being REAL contradictions, as apparent contradictions - when trying to see how pieces go together.

[sana8410]

One starts with a large puzzle, and many time the emotional reaction can be that there are pieces missing, something is wrong, etc, with the frustration that can come trying to put the puzzle together.

Yet, in time, it finally does fall into place.  But, the puzzle is not wrong prior to that moment.

That is the position I take with Scripture (and experience has born it out).

[BADecker]

Sana8410,We are getting off track, so some examples that come mind may help or maybe not. Mount Sinai where Moses was instructed to not allow the people to come to close lest they die, and Moses face glows from the heat. Aaron's 2 sons consumed by fire for the wrong offering to God. The burning bush being not consumed because it was on Holy ground (an idea how this fire will not harm the saved in the final day).

Who was the spirit that came up when King Saul used the witch of Endor to call up the Prophet Samuel just prior to the war with the Philistines where Saul lost his life?

Was Samuel's spirit
“Then the woman said, ‘Whom shall I bring up for you?’ And he said, ‘Bring Samuel up for me.’ When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, ‘Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!’ And the king said to her, ‘Do not be afraid. What did you see?’ And the woman said to Saul, ‘I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.’ So he said to her, ‘What is his form?’ And said, ‘An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.’ And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.’ ”

Yet, the things that the Gospels, the Revelation, Jesus, and St. Paul say indicate that the faithful believers will be with God at and after death. So, was Samuel not a believer? Or does God dwell with His Paradise and passed believers in the Ground? Or might it have been a lying spirit and not Samuel at all?

Perhaps the spirits of the dead separate. After all, even believers are not entirely faithful. Perhaps the unfaithful spiritual part of believers remains in the ground, while the faithful part goes on to live with God in glory forever.

[BADecker]

One starts with a large puzzle, and many time the emotional reaction can be that there are pieces missing, something is wrong, etc, with the frustration that can come trying to put the puzzle together.

Yet, in time, it finally does fall into place.  But, the puzzle is not wrong prior to that moment.

That is the position I take with Scripture (and experience has born it out).

Oh, you are so good in this point. 

[zolace]

...and most of your disagreement is between Old and New Testament; teachings of Jesus versus the teaching of Paul.Those are always going to conflict.

So, it is yet to be determined if that is the case here.  If you are honest, you will admit for rooting for them to be actual true conflicts.

Don't even think about debating honesty, zolace.  You have already proved yourself to be a lying , who will tell any lie to further your particular agenda... whatever that might be.

Now, now. Be gentle with Rigon. After all, St. Paul says that we are not supposed to argue. Consider Rigon like I consider him and many others in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=778346.0.

I'll be gentle,i'll be gentle sounds like a song,don't worry i won't bite Rigon,by the way, Rigon the idea is to try and work through the idea that contradictions are in the Bible

hahahah....Sorry, zolace, but when the contradictions require random interpretation by people who can't tell reality from fantasy and live in fear of superstitions, I'll pass.

You complain that no other Christians are discussing subjects with me in the religious forum.  Now, one is, and he is presenting some interesting points, and you still complain, still unhappy.

Why sabatoge a thread you obviously have no interest in?  Vent your spleen in the many political threads that are out there.  Or create a thread on the supposed contradictions.  Problem is - you get angry when folk disagree with you.  And you hate not getting the attention.

[BADecker]

...  Vent your spleen ...

LOL

 

[zolace]

Sana8410,We are getting off track, so some examples that come mind may help or maybe not. Mount Sinai where Moses was instructed to not allow the people to come to close lest they die, and Moses face glows from the heat. Aaron's 2 sons consumed by fire for the wrong offering to God. The burning bush being not consumed because it was on Holy ground (an idea how this fire will not harm the saved in the final day).

Who was the spirit that came up when King Saul used the witch of Endor to call up the Prophet Samuel just prior to the war with the Philistines where Saul lost his life?

Was Samuel's spirit
“Then the woman said, ‘Whom shall I bring up for you?’ And he said, ‘Bring Samuel up for me.’ When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, ‘Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!’ And the king said to her, ‘Do not be afraid. What did you see?’ And the woman said to Saul, ‘I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.’ So he said to her, ‘What is his form?’ And said, ‘An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.’ And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.’ ”

Yet, the things that the Gospels, the Revelation, Jesus, and St. Paul say indicate that the faithful believers will be with God at and after death. So, was Samuel not a believer? Or does God dwell with His Paradise and passed believers in the Ground? Or might it have been a lying spirit and not Samuel at all?

Perhaps the spirits of the dead separate. After all, even believers are not entirely faithful. Perhaps the unfaithful spiritual part of believers remains in the ground, while the faithful part goes on to live with God in glory forever.

If you notice in the bible(i will search it and show it to you)as a punishment to Adam and Eva,them and all the people till the death and rise of Jesus, went in the hell.So after Jesus rises Adam and Eva and all the other good souls went next to god in heaven.

[BADecker]

Was Samuel's spirit
“Then the woman said, ‘Whom shall I bring up for you?’ And he said, ‘Bring Samuel up for me.’ When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, ‘Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!’ And the king said to her, ‘Do not be afraid. What did you see?’ And the woman said to Saul, ‘I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.’ So he said to her, ‘What is his form?’ And said, ‘An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.’ And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.’ ”

Yet, the things that the Gospels, the Revelation, Jesus, and St. Paul say indicate that the faithful believers will be with God at and after death. So, was Samuel not a believer? Or does God dwell with His Paradise and passed believers in the Ground? Or might it have been a lying spirit and not Samuel at all?

Perhaps the spirits of the dead separate. After all, even believers are not entirely faithful. Perhaps the unfaithful spiritual part of believers remains in the ground, while the faithful part goes on to live with God in glory forever.

If you notice in the bible(i will search it and show it to you)as a punishment to Adam and Eva,them and all the people till the death and rise of Jesus, went in the hell.So after Jesus rises Adam and Eva and all the other good souls went next to god in heaven.

Good. Show it to me. I could have missed it. 

[Rigon]

...and most of your disagreement is between Old and New Testament; teachings of Jesus versus the teaching of Paul.Those are always going to conflict.

So, it is yet to be determined if that is the case here.  If you are honest, you will admit for rooting for them to be actual true conflicts.

Don't even think about debating honesty, zolace.  You have already proved yourself to be a lying , who will tell any lie to further your particular agenda... whatever that might be.

Now, now. Be gentle with Rigon. After all, St. Paul says that we are not supposed to argue. Consider Rigon like I consider him and many others in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=778346.0.

I'll be gentle,i'll be gentle sounds like a song,don't worry i won't bite Rigon,by the way, Rigon the idea is to try and work through the idea that contradictions are in the Bible

hahahah....Sorry, zolace, but when the contradictions require random interpretation by people who can't tell reality from fantasy and live in fear of superstitions, I'll pass.

You complain that no other Christians are discussing subjects with me in the religious forum.  Now, one is, and he is presenting some interesting points, and you still complain, still unhappy.

Why sabatoge a thread you obviously have no interest in?  Vent your spleen in the many political threads that are out there.  Or create a thread on the supposed contradictions.  Problem is - you get angry when folk disagree with you.  And you hate not getting the attention.

I never said any such thing. That's why you have no credibility; you lie.


I said no other Christians support your beliefs; that you are a mentally and emotionally troubled person who is hiding your mental illness behind religion.

I stand by that assessment.

Given the fact that the only Chrsitian your are arguing with doesn't agree with you just proves me correct.

[BADecker]

I said no other Christians support your beliefs; that you are a mentally and emotionally troubled person who is hiding your mental illness behind religion.

I stand by that assessment.

Actually, no person supports the belief of any other person exactly. So, what does this mean? 

[zolace]

Was Samuel's spirit
“Then the woman said, ‘Whom shall I bring up for you?’ And he said, ‘Bring Samuel up for me.’ When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, ‘Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!’ And the king said to her, ‘Do not be afraid. What did you see?’ And the woman said to Saul, ‘I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.’ So he said to her, ‘What is his form?’ And said, ‘An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.’ And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.’ ”

Yet, the things that the Gospels, the Revelation, Jesus, and St. Paul say indicate that the faithful believers will be with God at and after death. So, was Samuel not a believer? Or does God dwell with His Paradise and passed believers in the Ground? Or might it have been a lying spirit and not Samuel at all?

Perhaps the spirits of the dead separate. After all, even believers are not entirely faithful. Perhaps the unfaithful spiritual part of believers remains in the ground, while the faithful part goes on to live with God in glory forever.

If you notice in the bible(i will search it and show it to you)as a punishment to Adam and Eva,them and all the people till the death and rise of Jesus, went in the hell.So after Jesus rises Adam and Eva and all the other good souls went next to god in heaven.

Good. Show it to me. I could have missed it. 

Luke 16:24

So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

So from the above, both could see each other. I believe when Christ died, he went to this paradise and brought these people with him.

[zolace]

Hey, Sana8410, still interested, need to go back over the thread.  What I need to do is take note before me what has been stated so far, rather than keep scrolling back and forth on a page, or between pages.

[Rigon]

Hey, Sana8410, still interested, need to go back over the thread.  What I need to do is take note before me what has been stated so far, rather than keep scrolling back and forth on a page, or between pages.

As opposed to ignoring the 600 pound gorilla sitting in your lap.Do you seriously believe that other people do not see through your bald-faced lies?

[sana8410]

Hey, Sana8410, still interested, need to go back over the thread.  What I need to do is take note before me what has been stated so far, rather than keep scrolling back and forth on a page, or between pages.

As opposed to ignoring the 600 pound gorilla sitting in your lap.Do you seriously believe that other people do not see through your bald-faced lies?

That's fine, the threads not going anywhere and i don't like to rush this either


Rigon, i probably would agree with Zolace on many things biblical, its just not as interesting to go over things agreed on. I don't mind you posting even if its off topic, just would ask you try and say everything in one post when you do or the other context gets pushed aside, but i'm more inclined to comment on the topic, your position is known to me already.

[Mr.Bitty]

What happens to the wicked upon death?

Same thing that happens to everyone else.  They die. Matter is transformed and eventually recycled..and so on and so forth.

[Mr.Bitty]

...and most of your disagreement is between Old and New Testament; teachings of Jesus versus the teaching of Paul.Those are always going to conflict.

So, it is yet to be determined if that is the case here.  If you are honest, you will admit for rooting for them to be actual true conflicts.

Don't even think about debating honesty, zolace.  You have already proved yourself to be a lying , who will tell any lie to further your particular agenda... whatever that might be.

Now, now. Be gentle with Rigon. After all, St. Paul says that we are not supposed to argue. Consider Rigon like I consider him and many others in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=778346.0.

I'll be gentle,i'll be gentle sounds like a song,don't worry i won't bite Rigon,by the way, Rigon the idea is to try and work through the idea that contradictions are in the Bible

hahahah....Sorry, zolace, but when the contradictions require random interpretation by people who can't tell reality from fantasy and live in fear of superstitions, I'll pass.

You complain that no other Christians are discussing subjects with me in the religious forum.  Now, one is, and he is presenting some interesting points, and you still complain, still unhappy.

Why sabatoge a thread you obviously have no interest in?  Vent your spleen in the many political threads that are out there.  Or create a thread on the supposed contradictions.  Problem is - you get angry when folk disagree with you.  And you hate not getting the attention.

You are wrong no this,I've never seen him say this....He has said no other christians defend your creationist bullshit....which is completely true.

[BADecker]

Was Samuel's spirit
“Then the woman said, ‘Whom shall I bring up for you?’ And he said, ‘Bring Samuel up for me.’ When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, ‘Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!’ And the king said to her, ‘Do not be afraid. What did you see?’ And the woman said to Saul, ‘I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.’ So he said to her, ‘What is his form?’ And said, ‘An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.’ And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.’ ”

Yet, the things that the Gospels, the Revelation, Jesus, and St. Paul say indicate that the faithful believers will be with God at and after death. So, was Samuel not a believer? Or does God dwell with His Paradise and passed believers in the Ground? Or might it have been a lying spirit and not Samuel at all?

Perhaps the spirits of the dead separate. After all, even believers are not entirely faithful. Perhaps the unfaithful spiritual part of believers remains in the ground, while the faithful part goes on to live with God in glory forever.

If you notice in the bible(i will search it and show it to you)as a punishment to Adam and Eva,them and all the people till the death and rise of Jesus, went in the hell.So after Jesus rises Adam and Eva and all the other good souls went next to god in heaven.

Good. Show it to me. I could have missed it. 

Luke 16:24

So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

So from the above, both could see each other. I believe when Christ died, he went to this paradise and brought these people with him.

To me, this passage/parable is very vague for showing that the early believers didn't go to the paradise until the time of or after Christ's incarnation.

I agree, however, that "things" were very different before the suffering/death/resurrection than after.

There is a large following that hold to the idea that the thousand years in the Revelation is figurative, that it is figurative of the whole time from Jesus' death and resurrection on earth until final judgment, that it depicts Satan's death, and that Satan was raised from the dead at the time he was let out of the abyss (which may have already happened). The world changes when there is no Satan around to do the actual tempting. Without Satan, people are only tempted by their own lusts, etc., and by the lusts of other people.

[dicemant]

Everyone dies wicked or not ends up being plant food

[Rigon]

Mr.Bitty,is correct in his observation about no other Christian agreeing with you about your particular creationist beliefs, Zolace.
I don't give a shit about your petty squabbles over religious dogma. Not like I give a shit about your "holy day" being Sunday or Saturday, or whether or not you consider eating pigs or grasshoopers to be a "sin".

But when it come to the issue of who is "wicked" and who isn't, I recall that liars rate at the top of your Christian "wicked" list, and you are a liar.

What will happen to YOU after you die and face your "creator"?

[Rigon]

Sana8410-

"...but i'm more inclined to comment on the topic, your position is known to me already


Is it? Just so we're clear.....

I'm no Lucifer. I never rebelled against God.  I'm not "wicked".
If there is a better question, it is....

What Happens to the "wicked" in Life?

No one in this life gives a shit about a "wicked" person after they die.
You have to consider why this question is being asked, and wonder why the person is asking it is the sense that all thing will be judged posthumously....

Not like Zolace, who is a proven liar In This Life , and will resort to lies In This Life, and be judged by his peers In This Life....

[sana8410]

Sana8410-

"...but i'm more inclined to comment on the topic, your position is known to me already


Is it? Just so we're clear.....

I'm no Lucifer. I never rebelled against God.  I'm not "wicked".
If there is a better question, it is....

What Happens to the "wicked" in Life?

No one in this life gives a shit about a "wicked" person after they die.
You have to consider why this question is being asked, and wonder why the person is asking it is the sense that all thing will be judged posthumously....

Not like Zolace, who is a proven liar In This Life , and will resort to lies In This Life, and be judged by his peers In This Life....

Who said that? 
That you believe in God, but think he has no interaction with mankind, but mainly that any discussion on the Bible would be irrelevant to you because you think its fairytale....is that close enough?

[Rigon]

Actually that's very....close.. to what I believe.
Zolace certainly cannot accuse you of poor reading comprehension!

What's your excuse?  Do you have any sane reason to think I'm wrong?

The main question stands for all Christians, and that is the foundation of your beliefs, and that is does your "god" exist?
Without a firm foundation, anything else is moot.

[BADecker]

Mr.Bitty,is correct in his observation about no other Christian agreeing with you about your particular creationist beliefs, Zolace.
I don't give a shit about your petty squabbles over religious dogma. Not like I give a shit about your "holy day" being Sunday or Saturday, or whether or not you consider eating pigs or grasshoopers to be a "sin".

But when it come to the issue of who is "wicked" and who isn't, I recall that liars rate at the top of your Christian "wicked" list, and you are a liar.

What will happen to YOU after you die and face your "creator"?

Actually, the creation story in the Bible is very vague, at least the part before the creation of people. When you sit down and read this before-part slowly, you will see that:

1. Time and the universe and the electromagnetic spectrum were very different than what they are today;
2. There is or could be an expanse of something that resembles time before the beginning, but isn't time in the way we understand it. The beginning might only be the beginning of the universe as we know it now, and even 6,000 years ago, after it was fully created, (when it was set as it is now) it was different;
3. The separation of the waters is similar to making different groups of materials in space, all of them being separated from the basic mass that was called earth;
4. That "before" the first day was created, following when God created light, that the electromagnetic spectrum and sub-atomic particles were different in nature, so much as to not be able to call "time" before the first day "time;"
5. The sun, moon and stars were made out of the materials that had been previously separate when the waters were separated.

Anyway, you all get the point. Go back and read slowly, and see what is happening.

[Nabilo]

they take good manners lessons      

[zolace]

Was Samuel's spirit
“Then the woman said, ‘Whom shall I bring up for you?’ And he said, ‘Bring Samuel up for me.’ When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, ‘Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!’ And the king said to her, ‘Do not be afraid. What did you see?’ And the woman said to Saul, ‘I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.’ So he said to her, ‘What is his form?’ And said, ‘An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.’ And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.’ ”

Yet, the things that the Gospels, the Revelation, Jesus, and St. Paul say indicate that the faithful believers will be with God at and after death. So, was Samuel not a believer? Or does God dwell with His Paradise and passed believers in the Ground? Or might it have been a lying spirit and not Samuel at all?

Perhaps the spirits of the dead separate. After all, even believers are not entirely faithful. Perhaps the unfaithful spiritual part of believers remains in the ground, while the faithful part goes on to live with God in glory forever.

If you notice in the bible(i will search it and show it to you)as a punishment to Adam and Eva,them and all the people till the death and rise of Jesus, went in the hell.So after Jesus rises Adam and Eva and all the other good souls went next to god in heaven.

Good. Show it to me. I could have missed it. 

Luke 16:24

So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

So from the above, both could see each other. I believe when Christ died, he went to this paradise and brought these people with him.

To me, this passage/parable is very vague for showing that the early believers didn't go to the paradise until the time of or after Christ's incarnation.

I agree, however, that "things" were very different before the suffering/death/resurrection than after.

There is a large following that hold to the idea that the thousand years in the Revelation is figurative, that it is figurative of the whole time from Jesus' death and resurrection on earth until final judgment, that it depicts Satan's death, and that Satan was raised from the dead at the time he was let out of the abyss (which may have already happened). The world changes when there is no Satan around to do the actual tempting. Without Satan, people are only tempted by their own lusts, etc., and by the lusts of other people.

In John 14:6 (NIV), Jesus says "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." This proves inescapably that through Jesus is the only way to get to heaven. Romans 10:9 (NIV) says "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Saved from what? "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus" Romans 6:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23 That is why Jesus came to die in the first place - to take our punishment for us so that we could be right with God. "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all" Isaiah 53:6 John 3:16 is also related.

[Rigon]

This is where you are, Sana8410......

Your Bible god doesn't exist, and all beliefs and religiosity surrounding the belief in your Bible god is moot. In this particular "horse race", your horse doesn't even exit the starting gate.
There is nothing other than wishful thinking on your behalf.  If there were any sound reason to believe your Bible god exists, many more people other than Tomas would have proved me wrong long ago, and they haven't.
 
I understand that many Christains do not feel any obligation to prove their beliefs to a battle-scarred religious skeptic like me, but at the end of the day I'm not the face in the mirror.

[sana8410]

This is where you are, Sana8410......

Your Bible god doesn't exist, and all beliefs and religiosity surrounding the belief in your Bible god is moot. In this particular "horse race", your horse doesn't even exit the starting gate.
There is nothing other than wishful thinking on your behalf.  If there were any sound reason to believe your Bible god exists, many more people other than Tomas would have proved me wrong long ago, and they haven't.
 
I understand that many Christains do not feel any obligation to prove their beliefs to a battle-scarred religious skeptic like me, but at the end of the day I'm not the face in the mirror.

Your God and mine could be the same, the only difference would be is you don't think He inspired the scripture, or the Bible we have today. The problem is no one can prove to someone else how it inspired them to believe it. So i won't debate on your grounds of proof, only you can read it, or study it, and see where it leads you  .

[Rigon]

This is where you are, Sana8410......

Your Bible god doesn't exist, and all beliefs and religiosity surrounding the belief in your Bible god is moot. In this particular "horse race", your horse doesn't even exit the starting gate.
There is nothing other than wishful thinking on your behalf.  If there were any sound reason to believe your Bible god exists, many more people other than Tomas would have proved me wrong long ago, and they haven't.
 
I understand that many Christains do not feel any obligation to prove their beliefs to a battle-scarred religious skeptic like me, but at the end of the day I'm not the face in the mirror.

Your God and mine could be the same, the only difference would be is you don't think He inspired the scripture, or the Bible we have today. The problem is no one can prove to someone else how it inspired them to believe it. So i won't debate on your grounds of proof, only you can read it, or study it, and see where it leads you  .

Don't change the subject, or get all holier-than-thou on me. That shit don't fly with me, nor should it be an acceptable argument for your beliefs. If you look in your back yard for unicorns, and you don't find one, do you thinks that it's logical to believe that unicorns are really there just but you can't prove it one way or the other?

That is how ridiculous your beliefs in your Bible god are.

The FACT is, your religious beliefs are bullshit. Now, you can either ignore the fact, or prove me wrong.
No other aspect of life would you ever just mindlessly believe something without proof.  So why do you abandon common sense and reason in this case? Why would you ever abandon common sense at all?

[sana8410]

This is where you are, Sana8410......

Your Bible god doesn't exist, and all beliefs and religiosity surrounding the belief in your Bible god is moot. In this particular "horse race", your horse doesn't even exit the starting gate.
There is nothing other than wishful thinking on your behalf.  If there were any sound reason to believe your Bible god exists, many more people other than Tomas would have proved me wrong long ago, and they haven't.
 
I understand that many Christains do not feel any obligation to prove their beliefs to a battle-scarred religious skeptic like me, but at the end of the day I'm not the face in the mirror.

Your God and mine could be the same, the only difference would be is you don't think He inspired the scripture, or the Bible we have today. The problem is no one can prove to someone else how it inspired them to believe it. So i won't debate on your grounds of proof, only you can read it, or study it, and see where it leads you  .

Don't change the subject, or get all holier-than-thou on me. That shit don't fly with me, nor should it be an acceptable argument for your beliefs. If you look in your back yard for unicorns, and you don't find one, do you thinks that it's logical to believe that unicorns are really there just but you can't prove it one way or the other?

That is how ridiculous your beliefs in your Bible god are.

The FACT is, your religious beliefs are bullshit. Now, you can either ignore the fact, or prove me wrong.
No other aspect of life would you ever just mindlessly believe something without proof.  So why do you abandon common sense and reason in this case? Why would you ever abandon common sense at all?

Your the one changing the subject of this thread. You would be more believable if you just said your an atheist but you believe in God too. So prove your God exists because i can't see him either

[Rigon]

"Born Again"....
"Suffer the little children come unto me..."
"Child-like faith".....

Did you ever stop and think about why Christianity always requires believers to become "like children".....?

Because children are innocent, and gullible, and are much more easily victimized.

Grown-ups would never fall for that crap.

[Rigon]

This is where you are, Sana8410......

Your Bible god doesn't exist, and all beliefs and religiosity surrounding the belief in your Bible god is moot. In this particular "horse race", your horse doesn't even exit the starting gate.
There is nothing other than wishful thinking on your behalf.  If there were any sound reason to believe your Bible god exists, many more people other than Tomas would have proved me wrong long ago, and they haven't.
 
I understand that many Christains do not feel any obligation to prove their beliefs to a battle-scarred religious skeptic like me, but at the end of the day I'm not the face in the mirror.

Your God and mine could be the same, the only difference would be is you don't think He inspired the scripture, or the Bible we have today. The problem is no one can prove to someone else how it inspired them to believe it. So i won't debate on your grounds of proof, only you can read it, or study it, and see where it leads you  .

Don't change the subject, or get all holier-than-thou on me. That shit don't fly with me, nor should it be an acceptable argument for your beliefs. If you look in your back yard for unicorns, and you don't find one, do you thinks that it's logical to believe that unicorns are really there just but you can't prove it one way or the other?

That is how ridiculous your beliefs in your Bible god are.

The FACT is, your religious beliefs are bullshit. Now, you can either ignore the fact, or prove me wrong.
No other aspect of life would you ever just mindlessly believe something without proof.  So why do you abandon common sense and reason in this case? Why would you ever abandon common sense at all?

Your the one changing the subject of this thread. You would be more believable if you just said your an atheist but you believe in God too. So prove your God exists because i can't see him either

Perhaps, but actually just putting it all into perspective.

"What happens to the wicked upon death?"

What you mean is, what does your Bible god do to the wicked.....?, and since you can't make a reasonable case for the existence of your Bible god at all, what's the point? It's all superstitious nonsense.
Someone once invented a fairy tale to scare children and superstitious people, and you people are still falling for the same old superstitious beliefs in the 21st century. 

If you and Zolace want to continue your childish debate over the bogeyman, that's up to you. But just about it the way grown-ups would thinks.

[Rigon]

Why would you believe anything I say when I can't prove it?  You don't just mindlessly believe anything I say, why should I mindlessly accept what you say?
You don't have any special traits that I don't have. In such matter we are equal.

There is nothing special about your beliefs. There is nothing esoteric about them. You don't belong to a special club with magic decoder rings or secret hidden powers..... Nothing supernatural or magical.

The only difference between you and me is you place your faith in things you cannot prove in any tangible way. I suppose there's nothing wrong with that, unless you become like Zolace and eventually can't tell what is real and what isn't.

[sana8410]

Sorry Rigon but unless you can prove your God you can't ask others to prove theirs .

[Rigon]

Sorry Rigon but unless you can prove your God you can't ask others to prove theirs .

Who made that stupid rule?
I'm not asking anyone to believe in my version of "god". I have nothing to prove.
You, and other Christians like you, are commissioned to convert people to your belief system. That's rather difficult when you can't present any evidence of your "god", isn't it.

I'm not a brainwashed religious fool. I know when things do or do not exist.

Too bad you can't say the same.

[BADecker]

Was Samuel's spirit
“Then the woman said, ‘Whom shall I bring up for you?’ And he said, ‘Bring Samuel up for me.’ When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, ‘Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!’ And the king said to her, ‘Do not be afraid. What did you see?’ And the woman said to Saul, ‘I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.’ So he said to her, ‘What is his form?’ And said, ‘An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.’ And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.’ ”

Yet, the things that the Gospels, the Revelation, Jesus, and St. Paul say indicate that the faithful believers will be with God at and after death. So, was Samuel not a believer? Or does God dwell with His Paradise and passed believers in the Ground? Or might it have been a lying spirit and not Samuel at all?

Perhaps the spirits of the dead separate. After all, even believers are not entirely faithful. Perhaps the unfaithful spiritual part of believers remains in the ground, while the faithful part goes on to live with God in glory forever.

If you notice in the bible(i will search it and show it to you)as a punishment to Adam and Eva,them and all the people till the death and rise of Jesus, went in the hell.So after Jesus rises Adam and Eva and all the other good souls went next to god in heaven.

Good. Show it to me. I could have missed it. 

Luke 16:24

So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

So from the above, both could see each other. I believe when Christ died, he went to this paradise and brought these people with him.

To me, this passage/parable is very vague for showing that the early believers didn't go to the paradise until the time of or after Christ's incarnation.

I agree, however, that "things" were very different before the suffering/death/resurrection than after.

There is a large following that hold to the idea that the thousand years in the Revelation is figurative, that it is figurative of the whole time from Jesus' death and resurrection on earth until final judgment, that it depicts Satan's death, and that Satan was raised from the dead at the time he was let out of the abyss (which may have already happened). The world changes when there is no Satan around to do the actual tempting. Without Satan, people are only tempted by their own lusts, etc., and by the lusts of other people.

In John 14:6 (NIV), Jesus says "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." This proves inescapably that through Jesus is the only way to get to heaven. Romans 10:9 (NIV) says "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Saved from what? "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus" Romans 6:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23 That is why Jesus came to die in the first place - to take our punishment for us so that we could be right with God. "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all" Isaiah 53:6 John 3:16 is also related.

Check out Who the Angel of the Lord is in the O.T.  Many Bible scholars believe that He is Jesus before He was born of Mary. If there is no angel name (like Gabriel), and the text says the rather than an Angel of the Lord, the angel described has the attributes of God, Himself.

The book of Zechariah in the O.T. seems to have the best description of the Angel of the Lord. In it, the Angel is more than the other angels and creatures of God, yet the Angel is less than God Himself. This is similar to what Jesus is outside of the time that He spends as a man walking the earth.

This agrees with 1 Corinthians 15:27,28 where it says, "27 For he 'has put everything under his feet.' Now when it says that 'everything' has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

Hebrews explains that the angels are winds and flames of fire, not beings with the attributes of God.

[sana8410]

Sorry Rigon but unless you can prove your God you can't ask others to prove theirs .

Who made that stupid rule?
I'm not asking anyone to believe in my version of "god". I have nothing to prove.
You, and other Christians like you, are commissioned to convert people to your belief system. That's rather difficult when you can't present any evidence of your "god", isn't it.

I'm not a brainwashed religious fool. I know when things do or do not exist.

Too bad you can't say the same.

I'm not asking anything of you either, and no one can convert anyone, and no one is commissioned to offer the kind of proof you seek

John 20;29 Jesus said to him, Zolace, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

John 6;44 No man can come to me, except the Father who has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So all the preaching in the world by any human can't convert anyone, its only a vehicle

[Rigon]

Sorry Rigon but unless you can prove your God you can't ask others to prove theirs .

Who made that stupid rule?
I'm not asking anyone to believe in my version of "god". I have nothing to prove.
You, and other Christians like you, are commissioned to convert people to your belief system. That's rather difficult when you can't present any evidence of your "god", isn't it.

I'm not a brainwashed religious fool. I know when things do or do not exist.

Too bad you can't say the same.

I'm not asking anything of you either, and no one can convert anyone, and no one is commissioned to offer the kind of proof you seek

John 20;29 Jesus said to him, Zolace, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

John 6;44 No man can come to me, except the Father who has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So all the preaching in the world by any human can't convert anyone, its only a vehicle

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Mark 16:15-18

Not only did Jesus commission his followers, he offered "signs".
What's the matter, Sana8410, were sick that day they taught that in Sunday School?

But, since those signs donot follow you ( or anyone ) it's no wonder you choose to forget that part.

[sana8410]

Rigon,i said no one is commissioned to offer the proof you are looking for. Its true in those days the Apostles had such power, but no one is doing that today, if they were even you would believe. I also do not have a religious background or remember anything taught in sunday school

[Rigon]

Rigon,i said no one is commissioned to offer the proof you are looking for. Its true in those days the Apostles had such power, but no one is doing that today, if they were even you would believe. I also do not have a religious background or remember anything taught in sunday school

No soap. Notice there are no caveats, conditions, disclaimers, or expiration dates on the above scripture.  Taking the typical Christian cop-out and claiming the Bible says one thing, but means something else, is just insulting the intelligence of anyone who can read it for what it says.

[zolace]

That is true either way - so, just as Sana8410 cannot definitely say from the passage alone that it was just for that, so you cannot definitely say from the passage alone that it was meant for all time.  There is no expiration date in the passage, but there is no mention of it being for all time either.

Jesus does not say in the passage that these signs will follow till the year 95 for example.
But, also, Jesus does not say that these signs will always follow for ever and ever.

[Rigon]

Then what background do you have that has caused you to abandon common sense and reason?  Outside of a mother's love for her children, there is nothing else in life that requires you to have blind faith without proof.

[zolace]

However, given the greater context of the rest of Scripture, Sana8410 is correct.  There are other examples in the Bible like that, and in general usage also.

I get hired for a job, and told simply that I will be working from 8 to 5, that does not mean the hours can never change - or that they will change.

[sana8410]

Then what background do you have that has caused you to abandon common sense and reason?  Outside of a mother's love for her children, there is nothing else in life that requires you to have blind faith without proof.

I'm not trying to be like anyone but me, i hope. Jesus was addressing the apostles, but i can see a contradiction if its meant to mean we should be seeing the same things today happening, but i can address some of the language.

[Bit_Happy]

...
Then there is Matthew 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:

BBQ pork and large juicy steaks cooked at the Lake of Fire?
Perhaps you die and are completely gone?

[sana8410]

18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all;

In earlier versions the word serpents are used here, and its parabolic language as described here

Psalm 140:1-4

1Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man;

2Which imagine mischiefs in their heart; continually are they gathered together for war.

3They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips.

4Keep me, O LORD, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from the violent man; who have purposed to overthrow my goings.

So here serpents and poison (and other verses) are not actual serpents and poison but are what describe the wicked. So your verse can be seen in that light. There's another verse where Jesus calls a people a generation of vipers

they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

The sick is also looked at 2 ways

Luke5 30;32 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?

31And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance

Here being sick is being a sinner, which Jesus came to heal, which is Sin. It could give a clue also to how He heals even today, but you do point out a contradiction i can't fully address, just as i don't have every answer

[BADecker]

...
Then there is Matthew 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:

BBQ pork and large juicy steaks cooked at the Lake of Fire?
Perhaps you die and are completely gone?

The lake of fire is metaphorically like a cauldron for melting iron in a steel mill. It's designed to "melt" the eternal soul into its component parts, thereby taking the impurities out, and returning the pure "energy" that God put into the universe, back to Him. Because the soul is eternal, it will take an eternity of "melting and purifying" to get God His basic "energy" back. God can do this because He works outside of eternity as well as within it, all of it in ways we probably will never understand.

Look at the Gospels in the Bible and see how many times Jesus talks about the fire that burns up the evil people. If you want to see what the lake of fire really is, combine everything you know from scripture about Jesus, and focus it all in the words in Luke 12:49,50. It might take a little thinking, but all of you should be able to figure it out - what the lake of fire really is.

[Rigon]

Why do you insist on making yourself blind, Sana8410?
The scripture is clear, and is not taken out of context. And why aren't you dicing these words......

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved....... 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: ....?

Just like a religiously brainwashed fool.... First, Seeing things that aren't there, and then not seeing things as clear as the nose on your face when it's convenient for you.

You're not fooling anyone but yourself.

[sana8410]

Why do you insist on making yourself blind, Sana8410?
The scripture is clear, and is not taken out of context. And why aren't you dicing these words......

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved....... 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: ....?

Just like a religiously brainwashed fool.... First, Seeing things that aren't there, and then not seeing things as clear as the nose on your face when it's convenient for you.

You're not fooling anyone but yourself.

I'm blind because someone points out what they think is a contradiction and i'm suppose to throw my hands up and dismiss everything? Jesus was talking directly to the 11 Apostles when He said that, so it was so with those they came in contact with, and believed, that's not possible? Beyond that i would have to see all Scripture in one context, so there may be a better answer i haven't come across yet, that doesn't mean i take your view as the whole thing being fairytale

[Rigon]

...
Then there is Matthew 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:

BBQ pork and large juicy steaks cooked at the Lake of Fire?
Perhaps you die and are completely gone?

Save me a spot too,i'll come with the french fries and some beers.

[Rigon]

Why do you insist on making yourself blind, Sana8410?
The scripture is clear, and is not taken out of context. And why aren't you dicing these words......

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved....... 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: ....?

Just like a religiously brainwashed fool.... First, Seeing things that aren't there, and then not seeing things as clear as the nose on your face when it's convenient for you.

You're not fooling anyone but yourself.

I'm blind because someone points out what they think is a contradiction and i'm suppose to throw my hands up and dismiss everything? Jesus was talking directly to the 11 Apostles when He said that, so it was so with those they came in contact with, and believed, that's not possible? Beyond that i would have to see all Scripture in one context, so there may be a better answer i haven't come across yet, that doesn't mean i take your view as the whole thing being fairytale

You don't need to take my word for it. There are many reliable historical accounts of the period, and none of them even mention Jesus, much less anything else mentioned in the Gospel accounts.
There are reliable historical accounts of paganism, and everything mentioned in the gospels is also attributed to pagan god/men.... Virgin birth; followers/disciples; miracles/healing; death on a cross; resurrection/ascension into heaven.... every single thing you believe Jesus did was done by pagan god/men that preceded Jesus.

Convince yourself that you are not worshipping the "new& improved" pagan myth if you need to.

[sana8410]

It has been recorded that Herod did things we would consider unbelievable: The non-Christian writer is Macrobius (A.D. 395-423). Here is his comment,

When he [emperor Augustus] heard that among the boys in Syria under two years old whom Herod, king of the Jews, had ordered to kill, his own son was also killed, he said: it is better to be Herod's pig, than his son."

but i'm sure your right that some things in the Bible wouldn't show up in secular writings. If you wish to make that absolute truth that it never happened that's your option

[Rigon]

Born of a virgin in a stable/cave on the winter solstice (visited by Noblemen bearing gifts) ;  died/crucified on a cross on the Spring Equinox; baptized in water; 12 disciples; healed the sick/made blind men see; ascended into Heaven and promised to return someday.....

Straight out of pagan mythology.

Take another look....

Mary and Joseph took Jesus and fled Herod's' "Massacre of the Innocents" ( murdering all male children under 2 years old).

That event never happened. Something like that certainly would not have escaped the historians' attention.

Was your Jesus a "fairy tale"?

You'd be hard-pressed to prove he wasn't.

[Rigon]

It has been recorded that Herod did things we would consider unbelievable: The non-Christian writer is Macrobius (A.D. 395-423). Here is his comment,

When he [emperor Augustus] heard that among the boys in Syria under two years old whom Herod, king of the Jews, had ordered to kill, his own son was also killed, he said: it is better to be Herod's pig, than his son."

but i'm sure your right that some things in the Bible wouldn't show up in secular writings. If you wish to make that absolute truth that it never happened that's your option

Why do you post about something someone wrote who was born about 400 years after ? Would that be Herod Agrippa, or Herod Antipas.... or would YOU even know the difference?
Regardless... No Herod in RECORDED HISTORY ever ordered murdering children ( other than His own!)

[Rigon]

What happened?You not quite sure of your convictions?  Having trouble reconciling truth and fiction?It happens to the best of us.It's not their fault. They didn't know they were lying to you.The important part is knowing and understanding the truth.  You can forgive later.

[sana8410]

What happened?You not quite sure of your convictions?  Having trouble reconciling truth and fiction?It happens to the best of us.It's not their fault. They didn't know they were lying to you.The important part is knowing and understanding the truth.  You can forgive later.

Did he have some source when he wrote it, or did he just decide to write down a lie? 400 years isn't that far ahead for a historian 


if you have links, or a link where you get your line of thinking and i have time i'll check it out, but the Bible which was written down by serious men. Even if it didn't have secular writings back everything up, its still something i'll always consider far above a story of santa.

[zolace]

I think the real problem is that there is no evidence that you are really interested in evidence on the subject.Or on any subject you disagree with - like global warming.

[Rigon]

What happened?You not quite sure of your convictions?  Having trouble reconciling truth and fiction?It happens to the best of us.It's not their fault. They didn't know they were lying to you.The important part is knowing and understanding the truth.  You can forgive later.

Did he have some source when he wrote it, or did he just decide to write down a lie? 400 years isn't that far ahead for a historian 


if you have links, or a link where you get your line of thinking and i have time i'll check it out, but the Bible which was written down by serious men. Even if it didn't have secular writings back everything up, its still something i'll always consider far above a story of santa.

It's not like I didn't notice the person was born in 395AD. No hard feelings......and too bad...There is more historical substance for Santa Claus. To bad your religious bullshit gets in your way.

[Rigon]

I think the real problem is that there is no evidence that you are really interested in evidence on the subject.Or on any subject you disagree with - like global warming.

This is not a disagreement. I'm just pointing out the facts. My position on the issue of the existence of your "god" is not a matter of opinion.
Only in your delusional mind do things exist just because you want them to.

If your fairy tale god really did exist, then my opinion wouldn't matter, would it?

[zolace]

I think the real problem is that there is no evidence that you are really interested in evidence on the subject.Or on any subject you disagree with - like global warming.

This is not a disagreement. I'm just pointing out the facts. My position on the issue of the existence of your "god" is not a matter of opinion.
Only in your delusional mind do things exist just because you want them to.

If your fairy tale god really did exist, then my opinion wouldn't matter, would it?

Sorry Rigon, you have not provided any evidence that you are sincere.  Ball is in your court there.Me,Sana ,BADecker give you all the answers you need ,quoted as well...but you still consider me a lair.

[BADecker]

Born of a virgin in a stable/cave on the winter solstice (visited by Noblemen bearing gifts) ;  died/crucified on a cross on the Spring Equinox; baptized in water; 12 disciples; healed the sick/made blind men see; ascended into Heaven and promised to return someday.....

Straight out of pagan mythology.

Take another look....

Mary and Joseph took Jesus and fled Herod's' "Massacre of the Innocents" ( murdering all male children under 2 years old).

That event never happened. Something like that certainly would not have escaped the historians' attention.

Was your Jesus a "fairy tale"?

You'd be hard-pressed to prove he wasn't.

Read Ezekiel 28. Read about the king of Tyre. You will see that God is, in part, speaking through Ezekiel about Satan, the Devil, who, among other things, ... "walked among the fiery stones." In other words, at one time Satan walked within the great areas of God, Himself. Satan was given some of the great power by God. And, although God is taking that power away from Satan, Satan still has enough of it to recognize the future somewhat, and to place among the false gods and religions of the world, the information about Jesus, to make the Jesus story look like just another story.

How great is/was Satan? He was given the ability to rise from the dead. This is what Revelation 20:1-3 is talking about: "1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time."

You are missing a lot.

[Rigon]

I think the real problem is that there is no evidence that you are really interested in evidence on the subject.Or on any subject you disagree with - like global warming.

This is not a disagreement. I'm just pointing out the facts. My position on the issue of the existence of your "god" is not a matter of opinion.
Only in your delusional mind do things exist just because you want them to.

If your fairy tale god really did exist, then my opinion wouldn't matter, would it?

Sorry Rigon, you have not provided any evidence that you are sincere.  Ball is in your court there.Me,Sana ,BADecker give you all the answers you need ,quoted as well...but you still consider me a lair.

Your religious beliefs are nothing but lies, and you are a liar, and there is not enough bullshit on the planet to bury it.

I'm not sure what you think you are accomplishing by continuing your childish crusade, but what you are proving is that you're simply too stupid to figure it out.

Move on.....?  Good idea. Why don't you just shut  up and move on?  You've been at this for how many years now.....?

[zolace]

I think the real problem is that there is no evidence that you are really interested in evidence on the subject.Or on any subject you disagree with - like global warming.

This is not a disagreement. I'm just pointing out the facts. My position on the issue of the existence of your "god" is not a matter of opinion.
Only in your delusional mind do things exist just because you want them to.

If your fairy tale god really did exist, then my opinion wouldn't matter, would it?

Sorry Rigon, you have not provided any evidence that you are sincere.  Ball is in your court there.Me,Sana ,BADecker give you all the answers you need ,quoted as well...but you still consider me a lair.

Your religious beliefs are nothing but lies, and you are a liar, and there is not enough bullshit on the planet to bury it.

I'm not sure what you think you are accomplishing by continuing your childish crusade, but what you are proving is that you're simply too stupid to figure it out.

Move on.....?  Good idea. Why don't you just shut  up and move on?  You've been at this for how many years now.....?

Sana,BADecker and I were having a discussion.  You like to stalk, so here you are.  But, while you hand out rules to folk, you refuse to live by the same rules.  You are on a crusade - otherwise, you would not be in this thread.  Nor posting in some of the other threads as you have.

[zolace]

You lie when you say that you want to see evidence.  You don't.  There is no evidence that you do.  Just a crusade against what you apparently still fear may be true.  Very sad.

[BADecker]

I think the real problem is that there is no evidence that you are really interested in evidence on the subject.Or on any subject you disagree with - like global warming.

This is not a disagreement. I'm just pointing out the facts. My position on the issue of the existence of your "god" is not a matter of opinion.
Only in your delusional mind do things exist just because you want them to.

If your fairy tale god really did exist, then my opinion wouldn't matter, would it?

Sorry Rigon, you have not provided any evidence that you are sincere.  Ball is in your court there.Me,Sana ,BADecker give you all the answers you need ,quoted as well...but you still consider me a lair.

Your religious beliefs are nothing but lies, and you are a liar, and there is not enough bullshit on the planet to bury it.

I'm not sure what you think you are accomplishing by continuing your childish crusade, but what you are proving is that you're simply too stupid to figure it out.

Move on.....?  Good idea. Why don't you just shut  up and move on?  You've been at this for how many years now.....?

Everybody becomes irritated, at least a little, when someone contradicts them and says that they don't know what they are talking about. But, come now. No need to get so irritated that you are on the verge of becoming angry. And, please be patient with Zolace when he sounds angry or irritated. We can't get any discussion in when we are all bordering on anger.

[zolace]

I think the real problem is that there is no evidence that you are really interested in evidence on the subject.Or on any subject you disagree with - like global warming.

This is not a disagreement. I'm just pointing out the facts. My position on the issue of the existence of your "god" is not a matter of opinion.
Only in your delusional mind do things exist just because you want them to.

If your fairy tale god really did exist, then my opinion wouldn't matter, would it?

Sorry Rigon, you have not provided any evidence that you are sincere.  Ball is in your court there.Me,Sana ,BADecker give you all the answers you need ,quoted as well...but you still consider me a lair.

Your religious beliefs are nothing but lies, and you are a liar, and there is not enough bullshit on the planet to bury it.

I'm not sure what you think you are accomplishing by continuing your childish crusade, but what you are proving is that you're simply too stupid to figure it out.

Move on.....?  Good idea. Why don't you just shut  up and move on?  You've been at this for how many years now.....?

Everybody becomes irritated, at least a little, when someone contradicts them and says that they don't know what they are talking about. But, come now. No need to get so irritated that you are on the verge of becoming angry. And, please be patient with Zolace when he sounds angry or irritated. We can't get any discussion in when we are all bordering on anger.

I am a  calm guy,and i don't want to irritate no one.As you said we can say and support our point of view without cursing the others or telling them to shut up.

[Rigon]

You lie when you say that you want to see evidence.  You don't.  There is no evidence that you do.  Just a crusade against what you apparently still fear may be true.  Very sad.

I'm not discussing anything here, Zolace, I'm just making a point that I made long ago.
Your lies have been exposed; the man behind the curtain is naked. But you're just too stupid to admit it.
Continue your childish rants if it somehow makes your forget how stupid you are, but there is really no point.
You are  lying, and everyone but you knows it. Yours are not Christian beliefs, but the ravings of a lunatic.

Why don't you do REAL Christians a huge favor and shut up and crawl back under a rock. You give REAL Christians a bad name.

[zolace]

You lie when you say that you want to see evidence.  You don't.  There is no evidence that you do.  Just a crusade against what you apparently still fear may be true.  Very sad.

I'm not discussing anything here, Zolace, I'm just making a point that I made long ago.
Your lies have been exposed; the man behind the curtain is naked. But you're just too stupid to admit it.
Continue your childish rants if it somehow makes your forget how stupid you are, but there is really no point.
You are  lying, and everyone but you knows it. Yours are not Christian beliefs, but the ravings of a lunatic.

Why don't you do REAL Christians a huge favor and shut up and crawl back under a rock. You give REAL Christians a bad name.

Well other people are actually interested in discussing this thread topic, rigon.  If you are not, why dont you crawl somewhere else?If all you want is to rant, start a thread on that.

[BADecker]

You lie when you say that you want to see evidence.  You don't.  There is no evidence that you do.  Just a crusade against what you apparently still fear may be true.  Very sad.

I'm not discussing anything here, Zolace, I'm just making a point that I made long ago.
Your lies have been exposed; the man behind the curtain is naked. But you're just too stupid to admit it.
Continue your childish rants if it somehow makes your forget how stupid you are, but there is really no point.
You are  lying, and everyone but you knows it. Yours are not Christian beliefs, but the ravings of a lunatic.

Why don't you do REAL Christians a huge favor and shut up and crawl back under a rock. You give REAL Christians a bad name.

Well other people are actually interested in discussing this thread topic, rigon.  If you are not, why dont you crawl somewhere else?If all you want is to rant, start a thread on that.

Did you ever notice how the atheists get all vulgar and angry when they don't have a logical answer? Yet the Christians are peaceful, and simply pass it off as a child's rant.

[Rigon]

You lie when you say that you want to see evidence.  You don't.  There is no evidence that you do.  Just a crusade against what you apparently still fear may be true.  Very sad.

I'm not discussing anything here, Zolace, I'm just making a point that I made long ago.
Your lies have been exposed; the man behind the curtain is naked. But you're just too stupid to admit it.
Continue your childish rants if it somehow makes your forget how stupid you are, but there is really no point.
You are  lying, and everyone but you knows it. Yours are not Christian beliefs, but the ravings of a lunatic.

Why don't you do REAL Christians a huge favor and shut up and crawl back under a rock. You give REAL Christians a bad name.

Well other people are actually interested in discussing this thread topic, rigon.  If you are not, why dont you crawl somewhere else?If all you want is to rant, start a thread on that.

Make that WAS..  as in PAST TENSE....

Face it, Dorothy.....

Once you've seen the man behind the curtain, it's rather pointless to discuss the smoke & mirrors and the wicked witch.

Forget the ruby slippers and grow up!

[sana8410]

I didn't lose interest. I just don't take the subject in to large doses, i've seen to much religion to fast mess with minds. The sensible approach is small doses like not abusing a drug, even scripture refers to milk as opposed to meat. Zolace you can continue to try and disprove my ideas on a never ending hell not being real, but i can only say i may not be in the state of mind of a quick response, but eventually i will respond, sooner or later .

[zolace]

I have to go back and review what we have so far myself.   Posting in general, I have not had the time or even sometimes the inclination, mainly with other things going on.  I am fine with the pace we have.  I started picking up even on another board I had not been to for awhile.  But it is has been more short bursts, like during a break from work.

[Rigon]

I didn't lose interest. I just don't take the subject in to large doses, i've seen to much religion to fast mess with minds. The sensible approach is small doses like not abusing a drug, even scripture refers to milk as opposed to meat. Zolace you can continue to try and disprove my ideas on a never ending hell not being real, but i can only say i may not be in the state of mind of a quick response, but eventually i will respond, sooner or later .

That is all well & good,Sana8410, and I never went off-topic, but merely pointed to the foundation of your belief(s). Without a firm foundation, anything built upon it is moot.
Even a house of cards can stand, but only on a firm foundation. But, beware of the Biblical parable about building your house upon sand.

[zolace]

But, the off topic stuff makes it  more work to go back and review, admittedly.  Nor do I think driver really approaches the topic honestly.  He changes the rules of debate as it soots him.   Only question in my mind is does he do it consciously or not.

[zolace]

As an addendum, Rigon, Sana8410,BADecker and others who post on my topic I no doubt disagree about many political topics, and even on this one.  But, the central point of scripture is the risen Jesus.

[sana8410]

As an addendum, Rigon, Sana8410,BADecker and others who post on my topic I no doubt disagree about many political topics, and even on this one.  But, the central point of scripture is the risen Jesus.

I don't think with Rigon its a point of discussion but personal, maybe stemming from far back. Even if i agreed on the idea that the Bible offers no foundation of belief it doesn't mean the doctrines can't be debated on to see if a foundation on any one doctrine holds up. So to say we are wasting our time to discuss any of it and to state the same thing over and over on every thread is rude.

[zolace]

For those who have faith in the risen Jesus, we have all eternity to discuss such things.  Although, no doubt Jesus himself will generally be our focal point.  Its going to be awesome, hard, at least for me, to even begin to picture.

[Rigon]

As an addendum, Rigon, Sana8410,BADecker and others who post on my topic I no doubt disagree about many political topics, and even on this one.  But, the central point of scripture is the risen Jesus.

I have no personal stake in the discussion of your superstitious beliefs. But on the other hand, if you people can prove your beliefs valid, then I would be very interested. It certainly would become personal if your beliefs are true.
My point is for you people at prove to yourselves that your beliefs are NOT superstitious. If you don't care, neither do I.

[sana8410]

For those who have faith in the risen Jesus, we have all eternity to discuss such things.  Although, no doubt Jesus himself will generally be our focal point.  Its going to be awesome, hard, at least for me, to even begin to picture.

Looking over this thread i noticed my own points get some what confusing, but i think the main point is clear. I think the Bible builds a much better foundation on ultimately annihilating the wicked and the points for eternal torment couched in parabolic language and misinterpreted. Its the 1000 year rein that had me confused, the first resurrection which involves fire also, and the resurrection of the saved isn't the end finally. After the 1000 is the real end and fire involved again which devours satan and everything and everybody. I was confusing the 2, if there is a 1000 year rein which seems likely.
Revelation 20:5 'the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished'.

[Rigon]

For those who have faith in the risen Jesus, we have all eternity to discuss such things.  Although, no doubt Jesus himself will generally be our focal point.  Its going to be awesome, hard, at least for me, to even begin to picture.

Looking over this thread i noticed my own points get some what confusing, but i think the main point is clear. I think the Bible builds a much better foundation on ultimately annihilating the wicked and the points for eternal torment couched in parabolic language and misinterpreted. Its the 1000 year rein that had me confused, the first resurrection which involves fire also, and the resurrection of the saved isn't the end finally. After the 1000 is the real end and fire involved again which devours satan and everything and everybody. I was confusing the 2, if there is a 1000 year rein which seems likely.
Revelation 20:5 'the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished'.

Every religious belief system has it's own method(s) of dealing with who/what the followers consider to be "good", or,  "evil", and each are just as valid as yours, or in other words, just another in a very long list of superstitious beliefs.
Zolace wants to yammer away and fool himself into believing that because you each may believe Jesus existed makes your debate viable, when the fact is neither of you can make the case for Jesus ever existing at all. It doesn't seem to bother superstitious people like you two to overlook these little details, but for people who actually THINK, it's an issue.
It's no skin off my ass if you two debate what happens to me or Hitler after we die, or whether or not good people get to ride unicorns,  and bad people get no ice cream after their dinner of worms in hell....

[Rigon]

At the end of the day, what have you accomplished other than wasting a lot of time and proving nothing? Not like you're debating science with Zolace, who will ignore facts and makeup lies to suit his warped agenda. When discussing "wicked" people and "hell", at least you don't have any of those nasty facts getting in your way......

...except for the FACT that you have no foundation and your "god" doesn't exist, but you'll just ignore that little factoid.

[zolace]

As an addendum, Rigon, Sana8410,BADecker and others who post on my topic I no doubt disagree about many political topics, and even on this one.  But, the central point of scripture is the risen Jesus.

I have no personal stake in the discussion of your superstitious beliefs. But on the other hand, if you people can prove your beliefs valid, then I would be very interested. It certainly would become personal if your beliefs are true.
My point is for you people at prove to yourselves that your beliefs are NOT superstitious. If you don't care, neither do I.

This is a lie.  That is the point.  Till you become honest about this, as it was pointed out, all you do is say the same thing over and over - changing the rules as you see fit.

[Rigon]

As an addendum, Rigon, Sana8410,BADecker and others who post on my topic I no doubt disagree about many political topics, and even on this one.  But, the central point of scripture is the risen Jesus.

I have no personal stake in the discussion of your superstitious beliefs. But on the other hand, if you people can prove your beliefs valid, then I would be very interested. It certainly would become personal if your beliefs are true.
My point is for you people at prove to yourselves that your beliefs are NOT superstitious. If you don't care, neither do I.

This is a lie.  That is the point.  Till you become honest about this, as it was pointed out, all you do is say the same thing over and over - changing the rules as you see fit.

You are like a stubborn child who constantly tells lies and thinks the grown-up don't know it. When you discuss your creationist beliefs, you lie. You claim to have evidence that your creator exists, but you lie.
You are in no position to challenge anyone else's honesty or integrity. You have none and have never had.
That is why I contend that you are not a Christian. Real Christians do not resort to bald-faced lies when defending their faith. You have no honesty or integrity because you constanly make claims that you can't back-up, and when challenged, you lie.
It would be better for you that you never made childish, assinine claims that EVERYONE knows are untrue.

[Rigon]

You wish to prove ME a liar?  Prove your bullshit beliefs and stop lying.
But we've been down that path more times than can be counted, and we all know that it leads to you posting more lies.  If your beliefs were valid, you wouldn't have to lie to avoid proving them.

[zolace]

You wish to prove ME a liar?  Prove your bullshit beliefs and stop lying.
But we've been down that path more times than can be counted, and we all know that it leads to you posting more lies.  If your beliefs were valid, you wouldn't have to lie to avoid proving them.

Been done by others.  Can you demonstrate that you are not?  Again, the below statement by you is false - you have basically admitted such elsewhere.

[zolace]

Kind of hard to take the below statement of yours serious, Rigon, when  you are willing to embrace in magic dinosaur blood to hold onto your beliefs.  Or lose a debate on Santa (one I gladly stayed out of).

if you people can prove your beliefs valid, then I would be very interested

[Rigon]

Kind of hard to take the below statement of yours serious, Rigon, when  you are willing to embrace in magic dinosaur blood to hold onto your beliefs.  Or lose a debate on Santa (one I gladly stayed out of).

if you people can prove your beliefs valid, then I would be very interested

The "debate" that you mention was ....My position is and has always been that  Santa Claus isn't real.How can you believe that I lost the "debate" on that?

[zolace]

Kind of hard to take the below statement of yours serious, Rigon, when  you are willing to embrace in magic dinosaur blood to hold onto your beliefs.  Or lose a debate on Santa (one I gladly stayed out of).

if you people can prove your beliefs valid, then I would be very interested

The "debate" that you mention was ....My position is and has always been that  Santa Claus isn't real.How can you believe that I lost the "debate" on that?

And that is what is so sad - you lost on that!


Anyway, as someone else commented on your perception of reality recently, your confusion will keep you from seeing that you are indeed embracing the magic dinosaur blood (which is what it is if you were honest) because you are truly not interested in any evidence for a Creator.

[zolace]

Any evidence for the Creator you will simply distort (and have) - and really, until you have a change in character that embraces honesty as more than just a commodity, there is no hope for you.

[Rigon]

Any evidence for the Creator you will simply distort (and have) - and really, until you have a change in character that embraces honesty as more than just a commodity, there is no hope for you.

Let me get this straight......

-Zolace believes DInosaurs and humans existed on this planet at the same time....
-Zolace believes Santa Claus is a real person.......

What is next for you, Zolace... the Earth is Flat?

....and when I point-out the errors of Zolace' beliefs..... I am the liar.

[zolace]

Any evidence for the Creator you will simply distort (and have) - and really, until you have a change in character that embraces honesty as more than just a commodity, there is no hope for you.

Let me get this straight......

-Zolace believes DInosaurs and humans existed on this planet at the same time....
-Zolace believes Santa Claus is a real person.......

What is next for you, Zolace... the Earth is Flat?

....and when I point-out the errors of Zolace' beliefs..... I am the liar.

I am not the one who had the debate with you in Santa.  You are embarrassed to own up on that little discussion you had (and lost) some time ago.  I stayed out of it.  Who were you debating?  Be honest.

[zolace]

But I suspect you will continue to be evasive.  Or, maybe post 6, 10 or more in a row.  If so, you can have the last word here for now, till either Sana8410 or I have the time to get back to the thread topic that no doubt is what is really bothering you.

[Rigon]

But I suspect you will continue to be evasive.  Or, maybe post 6, 10 or more in a row.  If so, you can have the last word here for now, till either Sana8410 or I have the time to get back to the thread topic that no doubt is what is really bothering you.

I have never been evasive about anything relevant to the discussion. True that I have ignored your childish distractions and your stupid straw man questions.

Speaking of being a liar and being evasive....

Where is that evidence you claim to have about ANYTHING you believe?

You waste more time attemtping  ( and failing!) to shout-down anyone who proves you to be a lying sack of shit, Zolace.
I can't believe that Sana8410, or anyone, would want to discuss anything with a known liar.

This is the topic of the thread, Zolace, and the only way you can deal with it is to lie like a whore.

[zolace]

It has been recorded that Herod did things we would consider unbelievable: The non-Christian writer is Macrobius (A.D. 395-423). Here is his comment,

When he [emperor Augustus] heard that among the boys in Syria under two years old whom Herod, king of the Jews, had ordered to kill, his own son was also killed, he said: it is better to be Herod's pig, than his son."

but i'm sure your right that some things in the Bible wouldn't show up in secular writings. If you wish to make that absolute truth that it never happened that's your option

Sana8410, was reading Matthew 5, and the below verses reminded me of our discusison (lost a bit amidst other things).

I looked at a few versions, but, it did not help clarify - what would you say 'hell' refers to here below?

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

[sana8410]

It has been recorded that Herod did things we would consider unbelievable: The non-Christian writer is Macrobius (A.D. 395-423). Here is his comment,

When he [emperor Augustus] heard that among the boys in Syria under two years old whom Herod, king of the Jews, had ordered to kill, his own son was also killed, he said: it is better to be Herod's pig, than his son."

but i'm sure your right that some things in the Bible wouldn't show up in secular writings. If you wish to make that absolute truth that it never happened that's your option

Sana8410, was reading Matthew 5, and the below verses reminded me of our discusison (lost a bit amidst other things).

I looked at a few versions, but, it did not help clarify - what would you say 'hell' refers to here below?

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

If you go back to page 1 i think post 8 (to lazy to look now) the thing about 3 different hells all translated as just the one word Hell. So i would say Gehenna describes Matt 5, which would mean the lake of fire and second death where the wicked are casted .

[Rigon]

It has been recorded that Herod did things we would consider unbelievable: The non-Christian writer is Macrobius (A.D. 395-423). Here is his comment,

When he [emperor Augustus] heard that among the boys in Syria under two years old whom Herod, king of the Jews, had ordered to kill, his own son was also killed, he said: it is better to be Herod's pig, than his son."

but i'm sure your right that some things in the Bible wouldn't show up in secular writings. If you wish to make that absolute truth that it never happened that's your option

Sana8410, was reading Matthew 5, and the below verses reminded me of our discusison (lost a bit amidst other things).

I looked at a few versions, but, it did not help clarify - what would you say 'hell' refers to here below?

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

If you go back to page 1 i think post 8 (to lazy to look now) the thing about 3 different hells all translated as just the one word Hell. So i would say Gehenna describes Matt 5, which would mean the lake of fire and second death where the wicked are casted .

If you really want to research it... "hell" is just as place that scares ignorant people who refuse to grow up.

Gehenna was a place where bodies were burned because there was no place to bury them.  Primative cities with large poulations couldn't alway take care of the dead.  .....   and the list goes on.


I would respectfully suggest you grow up.

[sana8410]

It has been recorded that Herod did things we would consider unbelievable: The non-Christian writer is Macrobius (A.D. 395-423). Here is his comment,

When he [emperor Augustus] heard that among the boys in Syria under two years old whom Herod, king of the Jews, had ordered to kill, his own son was also killed, he said: it is better to be Herod's pig, than his son."

but i'm sure your right that some things in the Bible wouldn't show up in secular writings. If you wish to make that absolute truth that it never happened that's your option

Sana8410, was reading Matthew 5, and the below verses reminded me of our discusison (lost a bit amidst other things).

I looked at a few versions, but, it did not help clarify - what would you say 'hell' refers to here below?

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

If you go back to page 1 i think post 8 (to lazy to look now) the thing about 3 different hells all translated as just the one word Hell. So i would say Gehenna describes Matt 5, which would mean the lake of fire and second death where the wicked are casted .

If you really want to research it... "hell" is just as place that scares ignorant people who refuse to grow up.

Gehenna was a place where bodies were burned because there was no place to bury them.  Primative cities with large poulations couldn't alway take care of the dead.  .....   and the list goes on.


I would respectfully suggest you grow up.

The scary part of hell is endless torture which isn't my claim if you forgot what tomas and myself are discussing, and yes i know what Gehenna was .

[Rigon]

It has been recorded that Herod did things we would consider unbelievable: The non-Christian writer is Macrobius (A.D. 395-423). Here is his comment,

When he [emperor Augustus] heard that among the boys in Syria under two years old whom Herod, king of the Jews, had ordered to kill, his own son was also killed, he said: it is better to be Herod's pig, than his son."

but i'm sure your right that some things in the Bible wouldn't show up in secular writings. If you wish to make that absolute truth that it never happened that's your option

Sana8410, was reading Matthew 5, and the below verses reminded me of our discusison (lost a bit amidst other things).

I looked at a few versions, but, it did not help clarify - what would you say 'hell' refers to here below?

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

If you go back to page 1 i think post 8 (to lazy to look now) the thing about 3 different hells all translated as just the one word Hell. So i would say Gehenna describes Matt 5, which would mean the lake of fire and second death where the wicked are casted .

If you really want to research it... "hell" is just as place that scares ignorant people who refuse to grow up.

Gehenna was a place where bodies were burned because there was no place to bury them.  Primative cities with large poulations couldn't alway take care of the dead.  .....   and the list goes on.


I would respectfully suggest you grow up.

The scary part of hell is endless torture which isn't my claim if you forgot what tomas and myself are discussing, and yes i know what Gehenna was .

It is you who is forgetting what Zolace is discussing, because he is scared to death ( no pun intended!)  of hell.
He lives in constant fear of hell because he believes he is constantly pissing-off his "creator", even by way of independent thought.
It has become so bad with Tomas that he can't tell right from wrong; reality from fantasy....
Just one example:  Zolace insists the Bible says the Earth orbits the Sun...  And when I asked him to present JUST ONE verse along that line....   you can see how that goes.

[Rigon]

I know enough about the Bible, and Christianity,  to know that there is no confusion between right and wrong; reality and fantasy.
Zolace has been brainwashed to the point he doesn't know which way is up. ... but that doesn't stop him from preaching what he learned in Sunday School.
I have invited Zolace on many occasions to simply research the things he preaches, but he refuses to do it. He would rather preach the bullshit he learns from charlatans.
He is not a Christian, nor is he taking his faith from the Bible, but from the religious conmen he has placed his faith, who depend upon people like him to spread their lies.

Enough said.

[zolace]

I know enough about the Bible, and Christianity,  to know that there is no confusion between right and wrong; reality and fantasy.
Zolace has been brainwashed to the point he doesn't know which way is up. ... but that doesn't stop him from preaching what he learned in Sunday School.
I have invited Zolace on many occasions to simply research the things he preaches, but he refuses to do it. He would rather preach the bullshit he learns from charlatans.
He is not a Christian, nor is he taking his faith from the Bible, but from the religious conmen he has placed his faith, who depend upon people like him to spread their lies.

Enough said.

God has promised me eternal life.  I will never experience the Lake of Fire.  All my sins, my crimes, against God (past, present and future) are covered by the blood of Jesus, who died on the cross to set free any who want freedom from sin and its consequences.  I was once an enemy, now his adopted child, He my Father.  I have now (not will have) eternal life.  Jesus says that those who come to Him he will in no way cast away.

[zolace]

Bottom line, I as do all of us deserve God's wrath for our crimes.  But, I will never see that wrath because of Jesus.So, then, how does that fit into this tale you are spinning, rigon?  Who really is afraid here?

[Rigon]

Bottom line, I as do all of us deserve God's wrath for our crimes.  But, I will never see that wrath because of Jesus.So, then, how does that fit into this tale you are spinning, rigon?  Who really is afraid here?

I didn't "spin" anything.
"God has promised me eternal life."    So you say, but you also believe dinosaurs, Adam and Eve ate grass together in The Garden of Eden 8000 years ago. 

[Rigon]

Last time I checked you told me the Bible DIDN'T say the Sun orbited the Earth...... in fact,  you were quite adamant that I was wrong.....

...but You couldn't prove me wrong, could you,zolace?

It's not like the Bible has changed in the past few days.....

Would you care to look again and show us where I was wrong?

[sana8410]

Last time I checked you told me the Bible DIDN'T say the Sun orbited the Earth...... in fact,  you were quite adamant that I was wrong.....

...but You couldn't prove me wrong, could you,zolace?

It's not like the Bible has changed in the past few days.....

Would you care to look again and show us where I was wrong?

Keeping an open mind is important since no one can understand everything, but i doubt salvation is dependent on getting a doctrine right or being unsure up until the day of death. The problem is closing ones mind and then being in a position to hammer dogmatic beliefs onto others.

[sana8410]

I would point out that the Bible suggests in some places that salvation is not an action we initiate first but a drawing from God. Also even if someone believes they are secure in their own salvation what about people they love? How do they live with the idea of never ending torture for them?. This doctrine just on a common sense level falls short. If one believes choosing to accept God or not is a personal choice how does that square with one option meaning something no one would choose or even conceive? However if death as defined a ceasing of life forever, which all people are aware of anyway, then being free to choose (if that's what one believes) makes sense .

[Rigon]

I would point out that the Bible suggests in some places that salvation is not an action we initiate first but a drawing from God. Also even if someone believes they are secure in their own salvation what about people they love? How do they live with the idea of never ending torture for them?. This doctrine just on a common sense level falls short. If one believes choosing to accept God or not is a personal choice how does that square with one option meaning something no one would choose or even conceive? However if death as defined a ceasing of life forever, which all people are aware of anyway, then being free to choose (if that's what one believes) makes sense .

Keeping an open mind is all well & good, but first you must figure out what you are opening your mind to, right? For instance, this notion of "salvation". Now, don't get me wrong. I'll all for being saved, but I first would like to know what it is I'm being saved from.
If "salvation" is about some crack-pot religious belief that a fairy tale character ate an apple and condemned all mankind to hell simply for being born human.... I'll pass.  There are more imaginative fairy tales to put my "faith" into.

[zolace]

Bottom line, I as do all of us deserve God's wrath for our crimes.  But, I will never see that wrath because of Jesus.So, then, how does that fit into this tale you are spinning, rigon?  Who really is afraid here?

I didn't "spin" anything.
"God has promised me eternal life."    So you say, but you also believe dinosaurs, Adam and Eve ate grass together in The Garden of Eden 8000 years ago. 

Nothing contributes to emotional and mental stability like knowing one is secure in God's love, and that He will never leave you or forsake you.

[BADecker]

I know enough about the Bible, and Christianity,  to know that there is no confusion between right and wrong; reality and fantasy.
Zolace has been brainwashed to the point he doesn't know which way is up. ... but that doesn't stop him from preaching what he learned in Sunday School.
I have invited Zolace on many occasions to simply research the things he preaches, but he refuses to do it. He would rather preach the bullshit he learns from charlatans.
He is not a Christian, nor is he taking his faith from the Bible, but from the religious conmen he has placed his faith, who depend upon people like him to spread their lies.

Enough said.

But at the same time, those who get deep into the Bible face a danger. Not all the Jews and Hebrew people who got deep into the Bible were saved. In fact, these days most of the Jews in Israel will admit that they accept the Messiah of the Old Testament, but reject the Messiah of the New Testament. Why? Partially because of legalism, and the results of legalistic Jewish leaders, of the old days and now, who teach them that Jesus wasn't legalistic enough to be the Messiah.

Moses said in Deuteronomy 4:8, "And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?" Yet, many of the Hebrew people were tricked by the laws into believing that they had obeyed and could obey the laws perfectly enough that they could stand with the Messiah on their own strength. This is not so. We need the strength OF the Messiah to stand.

Acts 15:19-21 says, "19It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." Jews, of course, aren't Gentiles. Yet, it would be better for the Jews to be like Gentiles and be saved than it is for them to be deep into the Bible, legalistic, and damned.

The point? Zolace may preach. Zolace may have only partial knowledge of the Law - the O.T.. But Zolace is not legalistic like many of the unsaved Jews. Rather, he stands in faith in Jesus and is saved.

[sana8410]

I would point out that the Bible suggests in some places that salvation is not an action we initiate first but a drawing from God. Also even if someone believes they are secure in their own salvation what about people they love? How do they live with the idea of never ending torture for them?. This doctrine just on a common sense level falls short. If one believes choosing to accept God or not is a personal choice how does that square with one option meaning something no one would choose or even conceive? However if death as defined a ceasing of life forever, which all people are aware of anyway, then being free to choose (if that's what one believes) makes sense .

Keeping an open mind is all well & good, but first you must figure out what you are opening your mind to, right? For instance, this notion of "salvation". Now, don't get me wrong. I'll all for being saved, but I first would like to know what it is I'm being saved from.
If "salvation" is about some crack-pot religious belief that a fairy tale character ate an apple and condemned all mankind to hell simply for being born human.... I'll pass.  There are more imaginative fairy tales to put my "faith" into.

I saw something on the history channel about the stories in the Bible and one of them was about Noah's arc. The way they put it was that alien DNA was responsible for all the creatures loaded on this arc. The main point was it was the only way possible to bring 2 of every creature on, through DNA samples. The logic many Christians would use is anything is possible with God, but its also possible the stories were pictures we could understand while not taking anything away from what really happened. So i guess this explanation could help the skeptic who God i'm sure would know wouldn't believe such stories.

[Rigon]

Bottom line, I as do all of us deserve God's wrath for our crimes.  But, I will never see that wrath because of Jesus.So, then, how does that fit into this tale you are spinning, rigon?  Who really is afraid here?

I didn't "spin" anything.
"God has promised me eternal life."    So you say, but you also believe dinosaurs, Adam and Eve ate grass together in The Garden of Eden 8000 years ago. 

Nothing contributes to emotional and mental stability like knowing one is secure in God's love, and that He will never leave you or forsake you.

Then what is your problem,?  You live in constant fear that you will think an "evil" though and piss off your "god" and he'll send you to hell. 
I sleep very well, secure in the fact that there is no bogeyman.  Too bad you can't claim the same.

[zolace]

Bottom line, I as do all of us deserve God's wrath for our crimes.  But, I will never see that wrath because of Jesus.So, then, how does that fit into this tale you are spinning, rigon?  Who really is afraid here?

I didn't "spin" anything.
"God has promised me eternal life."    So you say, but you also believe dinosaurs, Adam and Eve ate grass together in The Garden of Eden 8000 years ago. 

Nothing contributes to emotional and mental stability like knowing one is secure in God's love, and that He will never leave you or forsake you.

Then what is your problem,?  You live in constant fear that you will think an "evil" though and piss off your "god" and he'll send you to hell. 
I sleep very well, secure in the fact that there is no bogeyman.  Too bad you can't claim the same.

Actually, rigon,, based on your posts, I doubt you are as exempt from fear as you say.  If you had no fear you would not need to misrepresent what others post.

[BADecker]

I saw something on the history channel about the stories in the Bible and one of them was about Noah's arc. The way they put it was that alien DNA was responsible for all the creatures loaded on this arc. The main point was it was the only way possible to bring 2 of every creature on, through DNA samples. The logic many Christians would use is anything is possible with God, but its also possible the stories were pictures we could understand while not taking anything away from what really happened. So i guess this explanation could help the skeptic who God i'm sure would know wouldn't believe such stories.

Just a technical note. If you read Genesis carefully, you will see that it was 7 pair, a male and his mate, of clean animals, and 2 pair of unclean animals. 

[BADecker]

Then what is your problem,?  You live in constant fear that you will think an "evil" though and piss off your "god" and he'll send you to hell. 
I sleep very well, secure in the fact that there is no bogeyman.  Too bad you can't claim the same.

It's good to not live in fear. But it is good also to live aware of what's going on around you.

Just look in the news to see how many people "... sleep very well, secure in the fact that there is no bogeyman," and then S.W.A.T. disrupts their dreams.

[zolace]

Then what is your problem,?  You live in constant fear that you will think an "evil" though and piss off your "god" and he'll send you to hell. 
I sleep very well, secure in the fact that there is no bogeyman.  Too bad you can't claim the same.

It's good to not live in fear. But it is good also to live aware of what's going on around you.

Just look in the news to see how many people "... sleep very well, secure in the fact that there is no bogeyman," and then S.W.A.T. disrupts their dreams.

I have no such fear.  Once I did, before having peace with God, but not now.  As Jesus said, all that come to Him for salvation he will in no way cast out.  I think you are projecting.

[zolace]

As it is said, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.  But, as we have all done the crime, we need Someone to stand in the gap for us.

What folks don't realize is that God expects us not to be 'good' but to be perfect.  And none of us are.  So, the idea that by trying to be good we will get on his good side is really foolish.

We all fall short of the glory of God.

[Rigon]

As it is said, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.  But, as we have all done the crime, we need Someone to stand in the gap for us.

What folks don't realize is that God expects us not to be 'good' but to be perfect.  And none of us are.  So, the idea that by trying to be good we will get on his good side is really foolish.

We all fall short of the glory of God.

What do I have to fear?  Do I fear wicked witches in gingerbread houses preying upon naive children?  Is the bad bad wolf something I should fear? Are there evil giants living in the sky up the nearest beanstalk?
You have never been able to present anything that demonstrates your cockamamie beliefs are anything other than stories intended to frighten little children, but you have to tell lies about others who don't believe the way you do... and you live in a fucked-up fantasy world filled with "evil" monsters just waiting to send you to hell if you dare question the conmen and charlatans that brainwashed you.

In the past you have claimed you have evidence of the existence of your "creator", but have never presented it.
In the past you have claimed to have proof that your "creator" answers prayer, and/or intervenes on behalf of those who believe in it.

[Rigon]

So in review....
You have absolutely no evidence for the existence of this "creator" of yours....NONE! Zip; zero; nada; zilch.  So what other motivation could  you have for believing in it except for your childish beliefs that after you die you won't be sent to hell?

[zolace]

As it is said, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.  But, as we have all done the crime, we need Someone to stand in the gap for us.

What folks don't realize is that God expects us not to be 'good' but to be perfect.  And none of us are.  So, the idea that by trying to be good we will get on his good side is really foolish.

We all fall short of the glory of God.

What do I have to fear?  Do I fear wicked witches in gingerbread houses preying upon naive children?  Is the bad bad wolf something I should fear? Are there evil giants living in the sky up the nearest beanstalk?
You have never been able to present anything that demonstrates your cockamamie beliefs are anything other than stories intended to frighten little children, but you have to tell lies about others who don't believe the way you do... and you live in a fucked-up fantasy world filled with "evil" monsters just waiting to send you to hell if you dare question the conmen and charlatans that brainwashed you.

In the past you have claimed you have evidence of the existence of your "creator", but have never presented it.
In the past you have claimed to have proof that your "creator" answers prayer, and/or intervenes on behalf of those who believe in it.

The obvious thing here is that you do fear.  And your posts can be irrational.

Both in the end, the choice is yours.  We all have a god in our lives - if it is not the Creator, then it is one of our own creations, be it a stone or tree or our own intellect.

[zolace]

So in review....
You have absolutely no evidence for the existence of this "creator" of yours....NONE! Zip; zero; nada; zilch.  So what other motivation could  you have for believing in it except for your childish beliefs that after you die you won't be sent to hell?

So, who are you protecting?  Because, lets face it, some folks who agree with your position have rebuked you.  I would suggest that, for you, the better approach is to say nothing, given the type of reaction you generate, and perhaps even sympathy for me.  Why would you want that?  You then go after that person, even though they agree with your position.

But I don't think you can keep quiet, because of some deeper issue here with you.  Perhaps you are afraid that you yourself might end up believing the very thing you argue against?  Or perhaps you are afraid that there may be some truth to it?

[Rigon]

So in review....
You have absolutely no evidence for the existence of this "creator" of yours....NONE! Zip; zero; nada; zilch.  So what other motivation could  you have for believing in it except for your childish beliefs that after you die you won't be sent to hell?

So, who are you protecting?  Because, lets face it, some folks who agree with your position have rebuked you.  I would suggest that, for you, the better approach is to say nothing, given the type of reaction you generate, and perhaps even sympathy for me.  Why would you want that?  You then go after that person, even though they agree with your position.

But I don't think you can keep quiet, because of some deeper issue here with you.  Perhaps you are afraid that you yourself might end up believing the very thing you argue against?  Or perhaps you are afraid that there may be some truth to it?

No. That is one more lie. No one has rebuked me. How could they? It's not like anyone but you is going to rebuke someone posting the truth.

[zolace]

So in review....
You have absolutely no evidence for the existence of this "creator" of yours....NONE! Zip; zero; nada; zilch.  So what other motivation could  you have for believing in it except for your childish beliefs that after you die you won't be sent to hell?

So, who are you protecting?  Because, lets face it, some folks who agree with your position have rebuked you.  I would suggest that, for you, the better approach is to say nothing, given the type of reaction you generate, and perhaps even sympathy for me.  Why would you want that?  You then go after that person, even though they agree with your position.

But I don't think you can keep quiet, because of some deeper issue here with you.  Perhaps you are afraid that you yourself might end up believing the very thing you argue against?  Or perhaps you are afraid that there may be some truth to it?

No. That is one more lie. No one has rebuked me. How could they? It's not like anyone but you is going to rebuke someone posting the truth.

I don't mind hearing from you, even as you disagree, as long as you are actually contributing to the debate, and not just descending into one of your rages.

[sana8410]

I think it would be the final judgment, not pleasant but not eternal, each judged on their works
from rev 20

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

saints are with Jesus, the unsaved remain dead or killed when Jesus comes 4-6

7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Satan and his armies war against the saints 7-10

11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

1000 years are done the rest of the dead are judged and also thrown into the lake of fire 11-15

[zolace]

Sana8410,I don't think this passage was brought up here.  What we have is Moses and Elijah alive.  Of course, Elijah is one of two men in the Old Testament that left this world without dying, but Moses died.

Mark Chapter 9
1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand [by], who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them;
3 and his garments became glistering, exceeding white, so as no fuller on earth can whiten them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elijah with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
5 And Peter answereth and saith to Jesus, Rabbi, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.
6 For he knew not what to answer; for they became sore afraid.
7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them: and there came a voice out of the cloud, This is my beloved Son: hear ye him.

[sana8410]

Enoch also, exceptions, there's also this from Matt 27;

50And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit. 51And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent; 52and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised; 53and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many. 54Now the centurion, and they that were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

were these the ones John saw in his vision in Revelation 20;4 or was he seeing a future event of all the "saints" that will be in Heaven, then we are told David is not among these in acts....

29Men and brothers, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us to this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which you now see and hear. 34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens,

It confusing to me because it goes to when the 1000 year rien begins, but makes sense that in what we understand being subject to time that some may have the first shot at heaven while others wait. Christ being timeless could still be the first friuts. So i think your point (if i guess your point right) that we go to heaven or hell at death is moot, and at the end we all get what we are descend for

[zolace]

Enoch also, exceptions, there's also this from Matt 27;

50And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit. 51And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent; 52and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised; 53and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many. 54Now the centurion, and they that were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

were these the ones John saw in his vision in Revelation 20;4 or was he seeing a future event of all the "saints" that will be in Heaven, then we are told David is not among these in acts....

29Men and brothers, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us to this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which you now see and hear. 34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens,

It confusing to me because it goes to when the 1000 year rien begins, but makes sense that in what we understand being subject to time that some may have the first shot at heaven while others wait. Christ being timeless could still be the first friuts. So i think your point (if i guess your point right) that we go to heaven or hell at death is moot, and at the end we all get what we are descend for

I brought up Elijah as he was with Moses meeting with Jesus in the gospels, but Moses I had in mind.

But, yeah, Enoch also left this world without dying - him and Elijah are the only ones mentioned as having done so in the Old Testament.  Elijah being Jewish, Enoch existing before the flood (ancestor to all folks living today).

An aside, but, the coming rapture of Christians at Jesus' return ("the dead shall rise and then we who are alive then join them" - 1Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15) is not some new concept.  I think alot of folk do not realize that there were two occurrences prior.

[zolace]

But some do - I worked for a Jewish company years ago, and though most were not that religious, the lead programmer who taught me was.  This subject somehow came up, and he knew about Elijah, but Enoch he disagreed with at first.

But, then upon reading the passage, he could see why one would conclude he left without dying also; I don't think he had ever given it thought.  Not sure what came of that with him later.

[BADecker]

But some do - I worked for a Jewish company years ago, and though most were not that religious, the lead programmer who taught me was.  This subject somehow came up, and he knew about Elijah, but Enoch he disagreed with at first.

But, then upon reading the passage, he could see why one would conclude he left without dying also; I don't think he had ever given it thought.  Not sure what came of that with him later.

Of course, then there is Melchizedek. Hebrews 7:3, "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever."

[sana8410]

But some do - I worked for a Jewish company years ago, and though most were not that religious, the lead programmer who taught me was.  This subject somehow came up, and he knew about Elijah, but Enoch he disagreed with at first.

But, then upon reading the passage, he could see why one would conclude he left without dying also; I don't think he had ever given it thought.  Not sure what came of that with him later.

Of course, then there is Melchizedek. Hebrews 7:3, "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever."

In the book of Jude its said that satan disputed the body of moses with the arc angel Michael. I wonder why?

[zolace]

But some do - I worked for a Jewish company years ago, and though most were not that religious, the lead programmer who taught me was.  This subject somehow came up, and he knew about Elijah, but Enoch he disagreed with at first.

But, then upon reading the passage, he could see why one would conclude he left without dying also; I don't think he had ever given it thought.  Not sure what came of that with him later.

Of course, then there is Melchizedek. Hebrews 7:3, "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever."

In the book of Jude its said that satan disputed the body of moses with the arc angel Michael. I wonder why?

I have heard possible explanations, but I don't think it says anywhere in the scriptures as to the reason why.  At least, I am not aware of any.

[Rigon]

But some do - I worked for a Jewish company years ago, and though most were not that religious, the lead programmer who taught me was.  This subject somehow came up, and he knew about Elijah, but Enoch he disagreed with at first.

But, then upon reading the passage, he could see why one would conclude he left without dying also; I don't think he had ever given it thought.  Not sure what came of that with him later.

Of course, then there is Melchizedek. Hebrews 7:3, "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever."

In the book of Jude its said that satan disputed the body of moses with the arc angel Michael. I wonder why?

I have heard possible explanations, but I don't think it says anywhere in the scriptures as to the reason why.  At least, I am not aware of any.

God commanded Moses/Joshua to kill-murder.....

What happened to those The Israelites murdered, Zolace? Were they "wicked"?

How about the millions  who died during The Inquisition(s) ......  what happened to them?

How many times must I mention the times when your "creator" commanded his followers to murder of innocent people?

not like it's secret.

[peeveepee]

One man's hero is another man's villain.


As for what happen to the "wicked", probably nothing.

[Mr.Bitty]

It appears that the question the focus is on the word "wicked."  The following discussion all seems to depend on the definition of "wicked."
The Bible tells us that God allows people to reject Him.  He doesn't force Himself on to people.  He gives us free will.  He gives us enough evidence of His presence for people to choose to love Him or reject Him.  

He's not going to force those who reject Him to spend eternity with Him.  They wouldn't be happy.  

Consequently, those who reject God, choose to separate themselves from God.  That is exactly what they get.

[Rigon]

It appears that the question the focus is on the word "wicked."  The following discussion all seems to depend on the definition of "wicked."
The Bible tells us that God allows people to reject Him.  He doesn't force Himself on to people.  He gives us free will.  He gives us enough evidence of His presence for people to choose to love Him or reject Him.  

He's not going to force those who reject Him to spend eternity with Him.  They wouldn't be happy.  

Consequently, those who reject God, choose to separate themselves from God.  That is exactly what they get.

It's not that easy.

(within the context of the NT scripture)......

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
-Mark 16:15-16


Obviously the NT scripture indicates that your "god" will "condemn" anyone who doesn't worship it. Hardly an endorsement for freedom of religion, or freedom FROM religion, as the free-will choice might be. Nothing in the Bible indicates anyone has true free-will to either accept or reject your "god". In every case, if a person rejects your "god" the person is condemned to hell.... no exceptions.

I maintain that this is the basis of your personal religious convictions, compounded by 2000+ years of religious brainwashing and mindless beliefs in fairy tales.... 
You're afraid of pissing-off your fairy tale "god" and going to Hell.

Free-will at gun-point.

[sana8410]

It appears that the question the focus is on the word "wicked."  The following discussion all seems to depend on the definition of "wicked."
The Bible tells us that God allows people to reject Him.  He doesn't force Himself on to people.  He gives us free will.  He gives us enough evidence of His presence for people to choose to love Him or reject Him.  

He's not going to force those who reject Him to spend eternity with Him.  They wouldn't be happy.  

Consequently, those who reject God, choose to separate themselves from God.  That is exactly what they get.

How do you define separation?

[Mr.Bitty]

It appears that the question the focus is on the word "wicked."  The following discussion all seems to depend on the definition of "wicked."
The Bible tells us that God allows people to reject Him.  He doesn't force Himself on to people.  He gives us free will.  He gives us enough evidence of His presence for people to choose to love Him or reject Him.  

He's not going to force those who reject Him to spend eternity with Him.  They wouldn't be happy.  

Consequently, those who reject God, choose to separate themselves from God.  That is exactly what they get.

How do you define separation?

Separation would mean not being with God.....cut off from God. 

God doesn't separate Himself from anyone, but He allows people to separate themselves from Him.  Not everyone likes God.  If someone doesn't like God, they would not likely be happy in Heaven.  Heaven is pretty God centered.

[noviapriani]

I love you and I give you free will...but if you don’t worship me I will burn you for eternity.   And by the way, don’t expect any favors from worshiping me.  I will still kill your kids in a car accident and cause you to lose your job, and then your house will blow away in a hurricane.  But I love you and I am always here for you watching over you every moment.

Lewis Black has a term for this...."stone cold fucking nuts"

[zolace]

I love you and I give you free will...but if you don’t worship me I will burn you for eternity.   And by the way, don’t expect any favors from worshiping me.  I will still kill your kids in a car accident and cause you to lose your job, and then your house will blow away in a hurricane.  But I love you and I am always here for you watching over you every moment.

Lewis Black has a term for this...."stone cold fucking nuts"

I don't think most Christians take that fire thing literally.  God gives us free will.  He doesn't punish people for not worshiping Him.  He gives us free will to accept him or reject him.  

He doesn't suspend natural law for his worshipers.  It would be a little crazy if he did.  

[Mr.Bitty]

I love you and I give you free will...but if you don’t worship me I will burn you for eternity.   And by the way, don’t expect any favors from worshiping me.  I will still kill your kids in a car accident and cause you to lose your job, and then your house will blow away in a hurricane.  But I love you and I am always here for you watching over you every moment.

Lewis Black has a term for this...."stone cold fucking nuts"

I don't think most Christians take that fire thing literally.  God gives us free will.  He doesn't punish people for not worshiping Him.  He gives us free will to accept him or reject him.  

He doesn't suspend natural law for his worshipers.  It would be a little crazy if he did.  

Then what exactly happens to people in eternity if they dont worship God if he doesnt really care if you do or dont?  I love the millions of different interpretations christians have.  Its like...hey...whatever you want to believe about god you can pretty much rationalize somewhere in the bible.

[Mr.Bitty]

Please tell us which bits of the bible we may appropriately take literally and which we cant....let me guess...dont take any of the bad stuff literally, but the good stuff is straight from God's mouth?

[sana8410]

It appears that the question the focus is on the word "wicked."  The following discussion all seems to depend on the definition of "wicked."
The Bible tells us that God allows people to reject Him.  He doesn't force Himself on to people.  He gives us free will.  He gives us enough evidence of His presence for people to choose to love Him or reject Him.  

He's not going to force those who reject Him to spend eternity with Him.  They wouldn't be happy.  

Consequently, those who reject God, choose to separate themselves from God.  That is exactly what they get.

How do you define separation?

Separation would mean not being with God.....cut off from God. 

God doesn't separate Himself from anyone, but He allows people to separate themselves from Him.  Not everyone likes God.  If someone doesn't like God, they would not likely be happy in Heaven.  Heaven is pretty God centered.

Well you just repeated your last response. The thread asks what happens to the wicked at death. And to take issue that some would not like Heaven seems odd when we see how heaven is described in the Bible, no tears, suffering or death, having a glorified body free of corruption, flowing waters, streets of gold etc

[jersey19957]

Absolutely, theres no judgement, thats deluded.

[Mr.Bitty]

It appears that the question the focus is on the word "wicked."  The following discussion all seems to depend on the definition of "wicked."
The Bible tells us that God allows people to reject Him.  He doesn't force Himself on to people.  He gives us free will.  He gives us enough evidence of His presence for people to choose to love Him or reject Him.  

He's not going to force those who reject Him to spend eternity with Him.  They wouldn't be happy.  

Consequently, those who reject God, choose to separate themselves from God.  That is exactly what they get.

How do you define separation?

Separation would mean not being with God.....cut off from God. 

God doesn't separate Himself from anyone, but He allows people to separate themselves from Him.  Not everyone likes God.  If someone doesn't like God, they would not likely be happy in Heaven.  Heaven is pretty God centered.

Well you just repeated your last response. The thread asks what happens to the wicked at death. And to take issue that some would not like Heaven seems odd when we see how heaven is described in the Bible, no tears, suffering or death, having a glorified body free of corruption, flowing waters, streets of gold etc

Ive asked this a number of times.  On one hand God wants you to have free will.  We need not accept him.  He is perfectly OK with it. On the other....he is most certainly not OK with it an holds a grudge for all eternity.

OK...so what happens to us upon death?  Does god hold a fucking grudge or not?  The bible is very clear on this issue.  He holds a grudge for all eternity.  EVER!!!!!!

Zolace has said she thinks most christians dont take that literally....so here we go with this again...please tell us which parts of the bible are literal and which arent...and those that arent literal, what do they mean exactly?  If the eternal fire is not literal, then what does it allude to?

The most amazing thing about indoctrination is the circles people will go in to maintain it.

[sana8410]

What you ask is the main reason i decided to explore this. Some say (and there is some evidence of this) that its all predestined which makes all this even more unbelievable, which means we don't have choice yet still suffer for eternity. The lighter side is we do have choice but if we choose wrong we suffer for all eternity, which is not a choice. The fact as i see it and what makes more sense is we return to the state before birth which is non-existence, or no conscience existence. Zolace isn't being clear but if he believes in an eternal hell he would have to conclude its not so bad and people would choice to be there instead .

[Mr.Bitty]

What you ask is the main reason i decided to explore this. Some say (and there is some evidence of this) that its all predestined which makes all this even more unbelievable, which means we don't have choice yet still suffer for eternity. The lighter side is we do have choice but if we choose wrong we suffer for all eternity, which is not a choice. The fact as i see it and what makes more sense is we return to the state before birth which is non-existence, or no conscience existence. Zolace isn't being clear but if he believes in an eternal hell he would have to conclude its not so bad and people would choice to be there instead .

In that case I prefer to be with everyone I know and call friends in hell .

[zolace]

What you ask is the main reason i decided to explore this. Some say (and there is some evidence of this) that its all predestined which makes all this even more unbelievable, which means we don't have choice yet still suffer for eternity. The lighter side is we do have choice but if we choose wrong we suffer for all eternity, which is not a choice. The fact as i see it and what makes more sense is we return to the state before birth which is non-existence, or no conscience existence. Zolace isn't being clear but if he believes in an eternal hell he would have to conclude its not so bad and people would choice to be there instead .

That is the theology of predestination.  Shortly after the Reformation, John Calvin came up with a theology in which he claimed that God predestined everything including who would go to Heaven and who wouldn't.  Those he created for Heaven wouldn't have a choice because the desire for God would be so great.  Those not created for Heaven wouldn't be able to accept Christ.

Then was another theologian about the same time named Jacobus Arminius, who argued against predestination and for the concept of Free Will.  Calvin's theory makes absolutely no sense to me .  One cannot call Catholicism either Calvinist or Arminian because it came before either of those theologians, but Catholics believe in free will, so in that respect you might say it's Arminian.

[zolace]

What you ask is the main reason i decided to explore this. Some say (and there is some evidence of this) that its all predestined which makes all this even more unbelievable, which means we don't have choice yet still suffer for eternity. The lighter side is we do have choice but if we choose wrong we suffer for all eternity, which is not a choice. The fact as i see it and what makes more sense is we return to the state before birth which is non-existence, or no conscience existence. Zolace isn't being clear but if he believes in an eternal hell he would have to conclude its not so bad and people would choice to be there instead .

In that case I prefer to be with everyone I know and call friends in hell .

As for the part where you said Hell is not so bad and people would choose to be there instead, I certainly wouldn't choose it.  It boils down to whether you love God and what to choose to be with God for eternity or if you don't like God and would prefer to be without Him.  Eternity begins now.  We make those decisions along the way and we either develop a relationship with God or become more distant from his as time goes on.  In the end, God doesn't send us anywhere.  We make those decisions to go in Hell or in Heaven ..is called free will.

[zolace]

As with all decisions, there are sometimes unforeseen consequences.  Those who choose to be without God find themselves in the company of others who are cut off from God.  It's the same way now.  We choose the type of life we want to lead. Eternity begins now. 

There's a wide variety of people who reject God.  Some are dangerous and others have a sense of ethics.  Most want their own will rather than yield to the will of a force in the universe. 

[zolace]

Let me put it another way.  There was a movie years ago called something like, Escape from New York.  I didn't see the movie but just remember the trailers, so I may have some of the details wrong.  It seems that the people in the country built a huge wall around New York.  They just put criminals in New York and let them fend for themselves.  There were no prison guards or police.  Everyone was free to try to make a living and live their lives.  Some of the criminals had committed minor crimes and some had committed horrendous crimes.  You can probably figure out the rest.  That is my concept of Hell.  I don't want to be there.  Those who don't like God might prefer it or they might not consider what it would be like without God.

[Mr.Bitty]

We have no choice where we are going according to the bible in many places.  Predestiny chosen by God is pretty clear.  So its not my fault I am what I am,......god chose my every action......and now he will send me to hell, which was also predestined.  

The thing that gets me is that every single person on earth can have different opinions about what all the bits of the bible....and they all think they are right....correction...KNOW they are right.

I have asked counteless people how they tell which bits are figurative, allegory, or literal fact and truth.


Regarding predestiny...of course I already know the answer.....we have free will, but god always knew what our free will would be because he gave it to us.    Still...the only conclusion here is that god gave me my free will and knew I would choose hell.......so he knew he was giving me hell.  I think there is a biblical quote where god rationalizes this and says something like  "does not a potter not make a vessel for both honorable and for dishonorable occassions?"

The fully indoctrinated brainwashed masses can rationalize anything.

Quotes on predestiny

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-does-the-bible-teach-about-free-will-and-predestination/


Jeremiah states that God knew us even before we were born in chapter one, verse 4-5: “The word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart, I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Isaiah 43:7 also presents evidence that God knew us before hand and had plans for us, “everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”

Job 23:14 declares, “He carries out his decree against me, and many such plans he still has in store.”

I Corinthians 2:7 says “…we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.”

Paul understood that he was called by God as evidenced in Galatians 1:15, “But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased.”

There is no book in the Bible that contains more references of predestination than in the book of Ephesians and no chapter more so than chapter one:

Verses 4-11; “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

In Ephesians 1:5, where it says, “he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…” the Greek word for adoption to sonship is a legal term referring to the full legal standing of an adopted male heir in Roman culture.
God’s Predestining Your Life

How can freewill fit into the framework of God’s sovereignty and God’s predetermination to save us? Just look what God planned for you before the earth even existed:

        God had planned you even before you were born or before you were in our mother‘s womb (Jer. 1:4).
        He planned things for you in the future before the earth or time existed (I Cor. 2:7).
        He had made plans for your life to give you His grace before you were born (Gal 1:15).
        He chose you and called you to redemption to be saved and be made holy (Eph 1:4).
        He chose you before your birth to bless you and save you through Christ (Eph. 1:3-4).
        He planned your adoption prior to your birth (Eph. 1:5).
        And according to His good pleasure, revealed the secrets things of God to you (Eph.1:9).



Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-does-the-bible-teach-about-free-will-and-predestination/#ixzz1xJC8YXkK

[Mr.Bitty]

Let me put it another way.  There was a movie years ago called something like, Escape from New York.  I didn't see the movie but just remember the trailers, so I may have some of the details wrong.  It seems that the people in the country built a huge wall around New York.  They just put criminals in New York and let them fend for themselves.  There were no prison guards or police.  Everyone was free to try to make a living and live their lives.  Some of the criminals had committed minor crimes and some had committed horrendous crimes.  You can probably figure out the rest.  That is my concept of Hell.  I don't want to be there.  Those who don't like God might prefer it or they might not consider what it would be like without God.

If everything you say is correct ...your god is still a prick.

"Love me with all your heart or Im sending you to a really shitty place".   Is that how any human being should feel toward another?  Why would we let our friends, bosses, lovers, or even Gods treat us that way?

Its hogwash.

It is amazing how religious people can criticize something known like evolution all the while rationalizing a fairy tale.  You cant see evolution, you werent there, you cant know...blah blah blah. When we have literally mountains of empirical evidence of the fact of evolution and have indeed observed it in action in the wild.  They do not understand that a scientific theory is the mechanism of how something that is known works.  Evolution is known...the mechanisms and the history and the body of knowledge which includes facts and hypotheses, is the Theory of Evolution.

[Mr.Bitty]

In any event, they question the validity of something fully KNOWN with great earnest....but dont question anything about their fairy tales for which they have not one iota of evidence.

Is that rational?.....Only to an indoctrinated brainwashed person. When early travellers sailed to foreign lands and met strange peoples and heard their stories of gods and worship, they laughed and thought...these people are clearly effing savages and  nuts.  This is exatly what any alien race would think if they landed and listened to you people....these earth people are effin stone cold nuts.  They seem civilized and able to function, but they are otherwise completely out of their minds.

[zolace]

Let me put it another way.  There was a movie years ago called something like, Escape from New York.  I didn't see the movie but just remember the trailers, so I may have some of the details wrong.  It seems that the people in the country built a huge wall around New York.  They just put criminals in New York and let them fend for themselves.  There were no prison guards or police.  Everyone was free to try to make a living and live their lives.  Some of the criminals had committed minor crimes and some had committed horrendous crimes.  You can probably figure out the rest.  That is my concept of Hell.  I don't want to be there.  Those who don't like God might prefer it or they might not consider what it would be like without God.

If everything you say is correct ...your god is still a prick.

"Love me with all your heart or Im sending you to a really shitty place".   Is that how any human being should feel toward another?  Why would we let our friends, bosses, lovers, or even Gods treat us that way?

Its hogwash.

It is amazing how religious people can criticize something known like evolution all the while rationalizing a fairy tale.  You cant see evolution, you werent there, you cant know...blah blah blah. When we have literally mountains of empirical evidence of the fact of evolution and have indeed observed it in action in the wild.  They do not understand that a scientific theory is the mechanism of how something that is known works.  Evolution is known...the mechanisms and the history and the body of knowledge which includes facts and hypotheses, is the Theory of Evolution.

I did notice that you said God "sends" people to a terrible place.  He doesn't send people anywhere.  People choose what they want.  It's natural consequences.  

Those who believe in Karma often are not far away from Christians who believe in free will.  One big difference is that those who talk about Karma have no one they can blame except themselves.  You set an energy into motion and it eventually comes back to you.  You reap what you sow.  You are not in harmony with the Universe but fight against it and you suffer the consequences.  

[zolace]

In any event, they question the validity of something fully KNOWN with great earnest....but dont question anything about their fairy tales for which they have not one iota of evidence.

Is that rational?.....Only to an indoctrinated brainwashed person. When early travellers sailed to foreign lands and met strange peoples and heard their stories of gods and worship, they laughed and thought...these people are clearly effing savages and  nuts.  This is exatly what any alien race would think if they landed and listened to you people....these earth people are effin stone cold nuts.  They seem civilized and able to function, but they are otherwise completely out of their minds.

God has more than one way of speaking to us.  The Bible is only one way.  It is an important way, but not the only way.  We can see how the universe works and we can recognize the force in the universe and love or not like it.  We can be in harmony with it or we can fight against it.  Those who love God, trust the universe.

[Mr.Bitty]

In any event, they question the validity of something fully KNOWN with great earnest....but dont question anything about their fairy tales for which they have not one iota of evidence.

Is that rational?.....Only to an indoctrinated brainwashed person. When early travellers sailed to foreign lands and met strange peoples and heard their stories of gods and worship, they laughed and thought...these people are clearly effing savages and  nuts.  This is exatly what any alien race would think if they landed and listened to you people....these earth people are effin stone cold nuts.  They seem civilized and able to function, but they are otherwise completely out of their minds.

God has more than one way of speaking to us.  The Bible is only one way.  It is an important way, but not the only way.  We can see how the universe works and we can recognize the force in the universe and love or not like it.  We can be in harmony with it or we can fight against it.  Those who love God, trust the universe.

The fact of the matter is quite simply that your god will not allow me to be in a good place for eternity if I dont worship him properly.  That's my definition of a prick (ALMOST PROFANITY ALERT).  He clearly doesnt love us. He lets millions of young girls be raped, mutilated and abused every day, many who abide by his alleged bullshit (PROFANITY ALERT) in the bible. You call this love, I call him either malevolent, inept, or evil.

My god aint like that. My higher power is gravity and the universe...it made everything happen and has always been here.  It wasnt created a by bearded invisible man in the sky, it exists.  My god cant help girls from being raped, your god can but doesnt.

[zolace]

The book, The Good and Beautiful God talks about how God shows Himself in nature and in the universe.  Some people love that force and others go through life shaking their fist at it.  You make your choices and you live with those choices.  

[zolace]

In any event, they question the validity of something fully KNOWN with great earnest....but dont question anything about their fairy tales for which they have not one iota of evidence.

Is that rational?.....Only to an indoctrinated brainwashed person. When early travellers sailed to foreign lands and met strange peoples and heard their stories of gods and worship, they laughed and thought...these people are clearly effing savages and  nuts.  This is exatly what any alien race would think if they landed and listened to you people....these earth people are effin stone cold nuts.  They seem civilized and able to function, but they are otherwise completely out of their minds.

God has more than one way of speaking to us.  The Bible is only one way.  It is an important way, but not the only way.  We can see how the universe works and we can recognize the force in the universe and love or not like it.  We can be in harmony with it or we can fight against it.  Those who love God, trust the universe.

The fact of the matter is quite simply that your god will not allow me to be in a good place for eternity if I dont worship him properly.  That's my definition of a prick (ALMOST PROFANITY ALERT).  He clearly doesnt love us. He lets millions of young girls be raped, mutilated and abused every day, many who abide by his alleged bullshit (PROFANITY ALERT) in the bible. You call this love, I call him either malevolent, inept, or evil.

My god aint like that. My higher power is gravity and the universe...it made everything happen and has always been here.  It wasnt created a by bearded invisible man in the sky, it exists.  My god cant help girls from being raped, your god can but doesnt.

That's about the size of it.  There's not much more to discuss with you.  If you don't like God, you would not be happy in Heaven.  You say that he will not allow you to be in a good place.  If you don't love God, would you really consider that to be a good place.  I don't think so.  You make your choices.
The only way that God could keep girls from getting raped is to take away free will or remove rapists from the world.  That is pretty much what He does with eternity.  Only those who love God and seek to do His will can enter Heaven.  There will be no rapists there unless they have repented and then they will no longer be rapists.

God is also the God of gravity and the God of natural law.  You seem to get angry at him for not suspending natural law. 

[zolace]

Mr.Bitty,you can argue against Karma or against the idea there's a force in the universe, but in the end, when you set an energy into motion, it eventually comes back to you and the choices you make determine what your life is like.  Eternity doesn't start after we die.   

[sana8410]

In any event, they question the validity of something fully KNOWN with great earnest....but dont question anything about their fairy tales for which they have not one iota of evidence.

Is that rational?.....Only to an indoctrinated brainwashed person. When early travellers sailed to foreign lands and met strange peoples and heard their stories of gods and worship, they laughed and thought...these people are clearly effing savages and  nuts.  This is exatly what any alien race would think if they landed and listened to you people....these earth people are effin stone cold nuts.  They seem civilized and able to function, but they are otherwise completely out of their minds.

God has more than one way of speaking to us.  The Bible is only one way.  It is an important way, but not the only way.  We can see how the universe works and we can recognize the force in the universe and love or not like it.  We can be in harmony with it or we can fight against it.  Those who love God, trust the universe.

The fact of the matter is quite simply that your god will not allow me to be in a good place for eternity if I dont worship him properly.  That's my definition of a prick (ALMOST PROFANITY ALERT).  He clearly doesnt love us. He lets millions of young girls be raped, mutilated and abused every day, many who abide by his alleged bullshit (PROFANITY ALERT) in the bible. You call this love, I call him either malevolent, inept, or evil.

My god aint like that. My higher power is gravity and the universe...it made everything happen and has always been here.  It wasnt created a by bearded invisible man in the sky, it exists.  My god cant help girls from being raped, your god can but doesnt.

You put me in mind of what Epicurus mused two millennia or so ago: Is [god] unwilling to prevent evil, but not able?, then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?

[Mr.Bitty]

In any event, they question the validity of something fully KNOWN with great earnest....but dont question anything about their fairy tales for which they have not one iota of evidence.

Is that rational?.....Only to an indoctrinated brainwashed person. When early travellers sailed to foreign lands and met strange peoples and heard their stories of gods and worship, they laughed and thought...these people are clearly effing savages and  nuts.  This is exatly what any alien race would think if they landed and listened to you people....these earth people are effin stone cold nuts.  They seem civilized and able to function, but they are otherwise completely out of their minds.

God has more than one way of speaking to us.  The Bible is only one way.  It is an important way, but not the only way.  We can see how the universe works and we can recognize the force in the universe and love or not like it.  We can be in harmony with it or we can fight against it.  Those who love God, trust the universe.

The fact of the matter is quite simply that your god will not allow me to be in a good place for eternity if I dont worship him properly.  That's my definition of a prick (ALMOST PROFANITY ALERT).  He clearly doesnt love us. He lets millions of young girls be raped, mutilated and abused every day, many who abide by his alleged bullshit (PROFANITY ALERT) in the bible. You call this love, I call him either malevolent, inept, or evil.

My god aint like that. My higher power is gravity and the universe...it made everything happen and has always been here.  It wasnt created a by bearded invisible man in the sky, it exists.  My god cant help girls from being raped, your god can but doesnt.

That's about the size of it.  There's not much more to discuss with you.  If you don't like God, you would not be happy in Heaven.  You say that he will not allow you to be in a good place.  If you don't love God, would you really consider that to be a good place.  I don't think so.  You make your choices.
The only way that God could keep girls from getting raped is to take away free will or remove rapists from the world.  That is pretty much what He does with eternity.  Only those who love God and seek to do His will can enter Heaven.  There will be no rapists there unless they have repented and then they will no longer be rapists.

God is also the God of gravity and the God of natural law.  You seem to get angry at him for not suspending natural law. 

So now I am evil because I don’t believe in him???    The mental gymnastics of the religious apologetic to rationalize just about anything under the sun. 

[zolace]

Sometimes people have a false image of God and it's helpful to use the force in nature or the universe concept as in Ch 4 of the Big Book or the concept of Karma.  http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf

In my humble little opinion, those who reject the idea of a force in the universe or higher power have pretty much made a decision.  You have free will and you have exercised it.


<<<<< Is [god] unwilling to prevent evil, but not able?, then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?>>>>>


That takes free will right out of the equation.  If God prevents evil, he cannot allow free will.  If he allows free will, then he cannot prevent evil.  

[Mr.Bitty]

Mr.Bitty,you can argue against Karma or against the idea there's a force in the universe, but in the end, when you set an energy into motion, it eventually comes back to you and the choices you make determine what your life is like.  Eternity doesn't start after we die.   

LOL...You clearly have no idea what I was talking about...but dont let that stop you from judging me like every other "good christian".  What I said had nothing to do with "suspending" or "anger".  How can I be angry with something that does not exist? How can I be angry with a man-made god of fables?  Why on earth would I want the laws of nature suspended?  You are not making any sense.

[Rigon]

Zolace
In the past I've put this question  to all Christians...

You speak to your "god", but does it ever speak back to you?

Of course I already know the answer, and the answer is no.  It does not talk to you.  And I respectfully submit that, if you actually HEAR/SEE  something from your "god", then you need to seek help from real-life mental health professionals.

You know that as well as I do.

If you don't mind if I ask....

What motivates you in your religious beliefs?   It's not like you have something that I don't. It's not like you have any "secret knowledge" that I don't.
There are thousands of reasons to consider your religious beliefs to be nothing but 100% pure bullshit; and absolutely 0 reasons to consider your beliefs to be otherwise.
So, why do you bother?

[BADecker]

Zolace
In the past I've put this question  to all Christians...

You speak to your "god", but does it ever speak back to you?

Of course I already know the answer, and the answer is no.  It does not talk to you.  And I respectfully submit that, if you actually HEAR/SEE  something from your "god", then you need to seek help from real-life mental health professionals.

You know that as well as I do.

If you don't mind if I ask....

What motivates you in your religious beliefs?   It's not like you have something that I don't. It's not like you have any "secret knowledge" that I don't.
There are thousands of reasons to consider your religious beliefs to be nothing but 100% pure bullshit; and absolutely 0 reasons to consider your beliefs to be otherwise.
So, why do you bother?

God speaks to people through the Bible, and directly to their hearts. God is a Spirit.

However, its a little like the thread. After awhile God gets tired of speaking to a bunch of people that won't listen to Him anyway, just like people get tired of listening to their opponents in this forum saying the same things over and over again. So He has it written down in the Bible so that, if any of them decide they want to listen a little some of the time, all they need do is pick up the Bible and read.

[Mr.Bitty]

Let me try to be clear.  My position is that I am not angry at all with something that clearly does not exist as you or anyone else envisions.  The evidence of this is that every last one of you I have ever spoken to has a different view about God and religion, all of them in conflict, and only one or none with any possibility of being correct because you cant all be correct...hence, no one knows what it is all about and everyone thinks they do (e.g., your explanation of purgatory).  Therefore, I am not angry at the constantly changing moving target (various conflicting interpretations) of a fairy tale.  Nor am I angry that gravity exists.  Gravity is the weakest force known to man, yet it controls the formation of planets and stars and creates heat and light and energy that allowed life to evolve.  You believe this to be evidence of your God.  It may be evidence of some unknown higher power, but not the made up god of man with more conflicting stories than then the Iraqi Minister of Information.  

That is my position.  Do try to get it correct once.

[WEB slicer]

If he allows free will, then he cannot prevent evil.  

if he is all knowing and all powerful why he would he create such flawed beings with horrible characteristics instead of creating perfection?

god should be able to allow free will and create us in a way where peace and love is inherent in all of us and we have no desire to harm each other.

[obocaman]

Theres no free will no god and no afterlife.

[hyperdimension]

They get eaten by worms or not if they get incinerated.

[counter]

They will be judged on the actions by the almighty..  Or nothing at all.  They will just disintegrate to dust for all eternity and be forgotten because they aren't worth remembering.

[sana8410]

Zolace,this is long but i found something you might want to mull over since it addresses your questions whether you believe it or not

Elijah, Enoch, and Moses

The Bible says that "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11), "Enoch was translated that he should not see death" (Hebrews 11:5), and "God took him" (Genesis 5:24), and Moses appeared in the transfiguration with Jesus (Matthew 17:3). Do these scriptures prove that the three were in heaven (the throne of God) before Jesus was sent to Earth in the flesh?
John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

These words were spoken by Jesus himself at a time when only Christ had seen God (John 1:18). And how did He know that no man had ascended up to heaven...the throne of God? Because he came from there! Therefore, what heaven did Elijah go to? What about Enoch and Moses?


Elijah

Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind "into heaven" (2 Kings 2:1) by "a chariot of fire, and horses of fire" (verse 11). Yet, over nine hundred years after this event, Jesus Himself said "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13). Is this a bible contradiction? Did Elijah really ascend to heaven where God's throne is, even though Jesus said he didn't? If Elijah did not go to heaven, then where did he go?

[sana8410]

Three Heavens

The Scripture mentions three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2), not just one!
The first heaven is earth's atmosphere where birds fly (Genesis 1:20, Jeremiah 4:25; 34:20, Lamentations 4:19, Zephaniah 1:3). One of the Hebrew words for 'heaven' is shamayim. This same word is translated as 'sky' in the Scripture, as can be seen by comparing Genesis 7:3, "fowls also of the air," with Genesis 7:23, "fowl of the heaven." The word 'sky' and 'heaven' are used interchangeably from the same Hebrew word (Psalm 8:. So the first heaven is synonymous with 'heights' or 'elevations.'

Here are other examples to illustrate the first heaven. Exodus 19:20 says the Lord was on top of Mount Sinai when he called Moses up there, and God describes Mount Sinai as 'heaven' (Exodus 20:22, Deuteronomy 4:36). Here, everything above the ground is called 'heaven'.
Another example of the first heaven is in Amos 9:1-3, where God states that at the time of this judgment, nobody will be able to flee away (verse 1), even "though they climb up to heaven" (verse 2). This "heaven" is defined in the next verse, verse 3, as climbing to the top of Mount Carmel.

Another example is where the Scripture speaks of the "dew of heaven" (Genesis 27:28,39, Deuteronomy 33:28, Daniel 4:15-33; 5:21). The first heaven, from which dew comes, means the atmosphere, where the clouds and the wind roam. Therefore, everything above the ground is called 'heaven."

Another Hebrew word for the first heaven is 'shachaq.' This same word for heaven (Psalm 89:6,37) is also translated as 'sky' or 'skies' (Deuteronomy 33:26; Job 37:18; Psalm 18:11), and as 'clouds' (Job 35:5; 36:28; Psalm 36:5; 68:34, Pro. 3:20; 8:28).

The second heaven is outer space where the planets and stars exist (Genesis 1:14-17; 15:5; 22:17; 26:4, Deuteronomy 1:10; 17:3; Psalm 8:3, Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29). Usually the term "host of heaven" or "firmament of the heaven" is used to describe this second heaven.

The third heaven is literally called "the third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12:2. This third heaven is what Christ calls his "Father's house" (John 14:2), and both Christ and the Apostle Paul calls it "paradise" (Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Revelation 2:7). This is where God and the heavenly sanctuary exist (1 Peter 3:22). This third heaven is also known as the "heaven of heavens" (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27, 2 Chronicles 2:6; 6:18, Nehemiah 9:6, Psalms 148:4), "The heavenly Jerusalem" (Galatians 4: 26; Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 3:12), the "kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 25:1, James 2:5), the "eternal kingdom" (2 Peter 1:11), the "eternal inheritance" (1 Peter. 1:4, Hebrews 9:15), and the "better country" (Hebrews 11:14,16). The fact that there are more than one 'heaven' can be shown by Psalm 115:16, "The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S." There are obviously two different 'heavens' being addressed in this one verse.

Since Elijah could not have gone to the heaven of God's throne, then to which heaven did he go? He was not taken to God's heavenly throne (as some imagine). He was actually taken into this earth's atmosphere, the first heaven. There could be no whirlwind in any other place but in the atmosphere surrounding this earth.

[sana8410]

Why Taken Up?

What was the reason for this unusual act of God? Why did he take Elijah up into the atmosphere? Was it to make him immortal? No! The Scripture says no word about that! In Hebrews 11:13,39, we read about the prophets who lived by faith and died without receiving the promises. So Elijah was not to be made Immortal, for that would give him pre-eminence above Jesus. But what does the Scripture reveal as the reason for this removal? 2 Kings 2:3 and 5 has the answer.

Notice what the sons of the prophets said to Elisha: "Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day?" (Kings 2:3). Elijah was the leader of the sons of the prophets in that day. God had sent Elijah as His prophet to wicked king Ahab and to his son Ahaziah. Now God wanted Elisha to direct His work, as Ahaziah the king had died and a new king was ruling. So what did God do?

He could not allow Elijah to be among the people with Elisha directing the work now. That would have been the same as disqualifying him. God never takes an office from a man when that man has been performing his duty well. The only thing God could do would have been to remove Elijah so that another would fulfill the office. This God did do. When he was taken up, Elijah's mantle dropped from him and Elisha picked it up (2 Kings 2:12-15). And what did the mantle mean? In Clarke's Commentary we note that it was "worn by prophets and priests as the simple insignia of their office" (Vol.2, p.484).

The purpose of God in removing Elijah was to replace him with another man who would occupy Elijah's office in Israel for another fifty years. This work had to start under a new king, for Ahaziah had just died, and Elijah was already aging. So, as not to disqualify Elijah in the sight of the people, God took him away allowing the mantle which signified the office of Elijah to drop into the hands of Elisha. Thus, God preserves the name and office of His prophet.

[sana8410]

Where did Elijah go?

This has been the perplexing problem to so many. He did not ascend to the throne of God, because Jesus said so! Also, notice in 2 Kings 3 and 5 that the sons of the prophets knew Elijah would be taken away by God in advance. They believed that Elijah was going to be taken to another location, which is why they were fearful that the Spirit of God might have dropped him "upon some mountain, or into some valley" (2 Kings 2:16). Elisha knew that God would preserve Elijah from falling, but at their insistence he permitted men to go in search for him, to no avail. And God did not say that Elijah was to die at that time. If he were, Elisha could have assumed his new office without the removal of Elijah, for we know that Elisha died in office after fulfilling his duty (2 Kings 13:14).

The new king of Israel was another son of Ahab, Jehoram, or Joram as he is sometimes called. The beginning of his reign marked the year of his removal of Elijah (2 Kings 1:18 and 3:1). During this king's reign, Elisha was the recognized prophet of God (2 Kings 3:11). In the fifth year of Joram king of Israel, the son of the king of Judah began to reign along with his father in Judah (2 Kings 8:16). His name also was Jehoram. The first thing he did to establish his kingdom rule was to put his relatives to the sword lest they should claim the throne from him (2 Chronicles 21:4). For nearly six years he followed the ways of the nations about him and did evil in the sight of God.

Almost ten years had now expired since Elijah was taken from the people. After this wicked rule by the Jewish king, God chose Elijah to write a letter and have it sent to the king! The contents of the letter are found in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. From the wording of this letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these events had occurred, for he speaks of them as past events, and of the diseases as future, Two years after the king became diseased the king died, having reigned only eight short years (2 Chronicles 21:18-20).

This proves that the letter was written about ten years after Elijah had been taken to another location by the whirlwind. God used Elijah to convey the message because he was the prophet of God in the days of the present king's father, and the son was not going in the ways of his obedient father, Jehosophat. This letter proves that he was alive someplace else. The Bible does not reveal how much longer Elijah lived after writing the letter, but it does say that it is appointed for all men to die once (Romans 5:12,14, 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, Hebrews 9:27).

A similar incident to Elijah's took place in Acts 8:39,40. Phillip was caught up into the first heaven, as Elijah was, and was transported to another location approximately 30 miles away. Another similar incident happened to Ezekiel, in which the spirit took him away (Ezekiel 3:12). The spirit lifted him up "between the earth and the heaven" and brought him "to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate" (Ezekiel 8:3). Afterwards, the spirit took him up to Chaldea (Ezekiel 11:24).

Elijah may not have been found because he was transported further away than the fifty men searched (2 Kings 2:17). And, as far as being taken into heaven where God's throne is, we can know that neither Elijah nor Enoch nor Moses were taken into God's heavenly abode, because Jesus said, while he was on this earth, that "no man hath ascendeth to heaven" (John 3:13), and "No man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18).

[sana8410]

Enoch

Some people believe that Enoch did not die but was taken directly to heaven where God is. But, Enoch eventually died, as all humans die. How can we know? The apostle Paul mentioned the circumstances associated with Enoch in Hebrews 11:5, along with other men of faith, and then stated: "These all died in faith, not having received the promises" (Hebrews 11:13). Yes, Enoch died, and he did not receive the promise of heaven (verse 16) at the time the book of Hebrews was written.

Based on Hebrews 11:5,13 and Jesus’ statement in John.3:13, "no man hath ascended up to heaven", how are we to understand the account of Enoch? Genesis 5:21-24 says that Enoch's days, alive on Earth, ended at 365 years old. The question is, did he die, was he taken to heaven alive, or was he transported to another location on Earth?

Let us examine the bold phrase in Genesis 5:24, where it says, "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" and compare the same Hebrew phrase in:
Psalms 37:36, "Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found."

Psalms 39:13, "O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more."
The Hebrew for the phrases in bold are the same Hebrew as Genesis 5:24. As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person "passed away" or would eventually die. Let’s look at the same phrase in the book of Genesis:

Genesis 42:13, "And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not." This was spoken by his brothers of Joseph. What’d they mean by "is not"?

Genesis 44:20, "And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him." Here, the brothers recount their previous discussion about Joseph with Pharaoh. When they first said, "and one is not," they meant Joseph "is dead."

Matthew 2:18, "In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not." Where were Rachel's children? Dead.

Hebrews 11:5, "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:" Does the phrase that says Enoch "should not see death" mean Enoch never died? Hebrews 11:13, "These all died [including Enoch] in faith." But not only that, verse 13 goes on to say that they did not receive the promises. One of the promises was a heavenly country (verse 16). If Enoch were in heaven, wouldn't he have received that promise?
Psalms 89:48, "What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah." Why would this Psalmist ask such a question concerning physical death if he believed Enoch did not see a physical death? The fact is, the Psalmist believed Enoch was in the grave and therefore asked this question.

So what does the phrase "should not see death" mean? Notice it is not in the present tense, that he "did not see" death, but that he "should not see death." John 8:51, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" [see also John 11:26]. This phrase must mean "the second death," since all the Apostles kept Jesus’ sayings and yet died the first death.

Based on Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" and Hebrews 11:13, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises," we must conclude that Enoch died the first death. To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example, Romans 5:12, "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" and Romans 5:14, "...death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned." Are we to believe that Enoch did not sin? Are we to believe that a man who was not yet cleansed of sin by the blood of Jesus could enter heaven and dwell in God's presence?


Enoch’s translation

But what about his translation in Hebrews 11:5? Does that mean he didn’t die? That’s what most people carelessly assume without proof. The Bible does not say that Enoch went to heaven when he was translated. Instead, it says he "was not found." According to Strong's, Thayer's and Bullinger's Greek Lexicons, "translate" means "to put or place in another place, to transport, to transfer." Nowhere in the Scripture does ‘translate’ mean to make immortal!

The same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16 where Jacob's body was ‘translated’ or ‘transported’ to Sychem, where he was buried! The Scriptures say Jacob was translated to the place of burial! God took Enoch and buried him somewhere so as not to be found, just as he did with the body of Moses in Deuteronomy 34:6. No man knows where Moses' or Enoch’s grave is. God hid them for reasons known only to Him.

Notice another proof that ‘translate’ does not mean to make immortal. Paul wrote that the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Colossians 1:13). The apostle Paul says that he was already translated, even though he was still physically alive! Although he was once part of the darkness of this world, he was translated, removed from darkness, into the light of the kingdom of God while he was physically alive!

At the age of 65, Enoch had a son named Methuselah. But how long did Enoch walk with God?
Genesis 5:22, "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters."

So, Enoch followed God’s ways for three hundred years. Notice that the Scripture does not record that Enoch is still walking with God. It says that Enoch WALKED with God for three hundred years, and not one year more. Why? Because "all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years" (Genesis 5:23). Paul says, in Colossians 1:10, "That ye might walk worthy of the Lord." Enoch walked with God and pleased God. This is what Genesis 5:22,24 means when it says "Enoch walked with God."

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 says that all die and all shall be resurrected, but Messiah must be first in the order. Enoch could not possibly have preceded him, especially if he were still flesh and blood as it says in verses 49-52.


The Transfiguration

The only remaining texts that puzzle people are those relative to the appearances of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus (Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-10, Luke 9:28-36). After the Transfiguration, Jesus said, while leaving the mountain, "Tell the vision to no man" (Matthew 17:9). Jesus calls the transfiguration a vision! A vision is not a material reality, but a supernatural picture observed by the eyes. The same Greek word for "vision" was used of Peter's vision of the unclean beasts being made clean (Acts 10:3,17,19; 11:5). They were not real but a supernatural picture. In the case of the transfiguration it was a prophetic vision which would take place in the future. Peter, James and John saw the Son of Man glorified in the Kingdom through a prophetic vision. Here are other examples:

Acts 16:9, "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us." This also is something that was to happen in the future.

Acts 18:9-10, "Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." Jesus is telling Paul that, in the near future, no man shall hurt him.
Visions should not be interpreted as literal. For example, look at Genesis 37:5-10. When Joseph dreamed that his "sheaf arose, and stood upright," and his brother’s sheaves bowed down to Joseph’s sheaf (verse 7), Or when Joseph dreamed that "the sun and the moon and the eleven stars" bowed down to Joseph (verse 9), is this literal? No. This was a prophetic vision of something that was to occur in the future; when Joseph’s mother, father, and brothers would bow down to him as King.

Both Moses and Elijah were still in their graves, but in vision both they and Jesus were seen in glory of the resurrection, and event to which Moses and Elijah have not yet attained at that time (Hebrews 11:39). The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming Kingdom.


Moses

There cannot be any doubt that Moses died and was buried (Deuteronomy 34:5-6). Therefore, for him to have been in heaven while Jesus was still in the flesh, Moses had to be resurrected from the dead, receive eternal life, and "put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:53). But the Bible is clear that Jesus had to be the first one to be resurrected to eternal life. 1 Corinthians 15:20, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

The Apostle Paul said Jesus had to be "the firstborn from the dead" and "have the preeminence" (Colossians 1:18). If anyone preceded Jesus, then he wasn't the firstborn from the dead. Since some people believe Enoch and Elijah did not die, but that Moses did die, then that would mean Moses had the preeminence over Jesus. Therefore, since Jesus had to be the first to be resurrected unto eternal life and the first to ascend into heaven and stand before God, Moses could not possibly have been in heaven while Jesus was on earth.

Hebrews 11:23-28 talks about Moses living by faith. Now read verses 39-40, which say that Moses did not receive the promise of a resurrection unto eternal life and perfection. This should settle any disputes to the contrary. What about Michael and Satan disputing about Moses' body? Jude 9 does not say Michael won the dispute and then took Moses to heaven. Since there is no mention of heaven here, nor in the entire book of Jude, we should not assume he was taken there.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R2p09J9zEX2z6Rl6TTxNCyqs7VM0FCfNFosiKhIlvoU/edit?pli=1

[sana8410]

The one thing it doesn't address are the ones caught up at the 2nd coming where the bible says not all will sleep. It seems the first death is both refered to as death and sleep, the second death being the real death. In other words when the bible defines death first or second its the same state we are in, however assuming people awake from the first state it can be viewed as sleep, even though its the same unconscience condition as the second death which is final. So some will never taste death, not sleep, but death, is consistent
it is a lot to take in especially if one is taught doctrines that would contradict all of this. I'm just scratching at the surface myself.