What happens to the wicked upon death?

[Rigon]

It has been recorded that Herod did things we would consider unbelievable: The non-Christian writer is Macrobius (A.D. 395-423). Here is his comment,

When he [emperor Augustus] heard that among the boys in Syria under two years old whom Herod, king of the Jews, had ordered to kill, his own son was also killed, he said: it is better to be Herod's pig, than his son."

but i'm sure your right that some things in the Bible wouldn't show up in secular writings. If you wish to make that absolute truth that it never happened that's your option

Sana8410, was reading Matthew 5, and the below verses reminded me of our discusison (lost a bit amidst other things).

I looked at a few versions, but, it did not help clarify - what would you say 'hell' refers to here below?

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

If you go back to page 1 i think post 8 (to lazy to look now) the thing about 3 different hells all translated as just the one word Hell. So i would say Gehenna describes Matt 5, which would mean the lake of fire and second death where the wicked are casted .

If you really want to research it... "hell" is just as place that scares ignorant people who refuse to grow up.

Gehenna was a place where bodies were burned because there was no place to bury them.  Primative cities with large poulations couldn't alway take care of the dead.  .....   and the list goes on.


I would respectfully suggest you grow up.

The scary part of hell is endless torture which isn't my claim if you forgot what tomas and myself are discussing, and yes i know what Gehenna was .

It is you who is forgetting what Zolace is discussing, because he is scared to death ( no pun intended!)  of hell.
He lives in constant fear of hell because he believes he is constantly pissing-off his "creator", even by way of independent thought.
It has become so bad with Tomas that he can't tell right from wrong; reality from fantasy....
Just one example:  Zolace insists the Bible says the Earth orbits the Sun...  And when I asked him to present JUST ONE verse along that line....   you can see how that goes.

[Rigon]

I know enough about the Bible, and Christianity,  to know that there is no confusion between right and wrong; reality and fantasy.
Zolace has been brainwashed to the point he doesn't know which way is up. ... but that doesn't stop him from preaching what he learned in Sunday School.
I have invited Zolace on many occasions to simply research the things he preaches, but he refuses to do it. He would rather preach the bullshit he learns from charlatans.
He is not a Christian, nor is he taking his faith from the Bible, but from the religious conmen he has placed his faith, who depend upon people like him to spread their lies.

Enough said.

[zolace]

I know enough about the Bible, and Christianity,  to know that there is no confusion between right and wrong; reality and fantasy.
Zolace has been brainwashed to the point he doesn't know which way is up. ... but that doesn't stop him from preaching what he learned in Sunday School.
I have invited Zolace on many occasions to simply research the things he preaches, but he refuses to do it. He would rather preach the bullshit he learns from charlatans.
He is not a Christian, nor is he taking his faith from the Bible, but from the religious conmen he has placed his faith, who depend upon people like him to spread their lies.

Enough said.

God has promised me eternal life.  I will never experience the Lake of Fire.  All my sins, my crimes, against God (past, present and future) are covered by the blood of Jesus, who died on the cross to set free any who want freedom from sin and its consequences.  I was once an enemy, now his adopted child, He my Father.  I have now (not will have) eternal life.  Jesus says that those who come to Him he will in no way cast away.

[zolace]

Bottom line, I as do all of us deserve God's wrath for our crimes.  But, I will never see that wrath because of Jesus.So, then, how does that fit into this tale you are spinning, rigon?  Who really is afraid here?

[Rigon]

Bottom line, I as do all of us deserve God's wrath for our crimes.  But, I will never see that wrath because of Jesus.So, then, how does that fit into this tale you are spinning, rigon?  Who really is afraid here?

I didn't "spin" anything.
"God has promised me eternal life."    So you say, but you also believe dinosaurs, Adam and Eve ate grass together in The Garden of Eden 8000 years ago. 

[Rigon]

Last time I checked you told me the Bible DIDN'T say the Sun orbited the Earth...... in fact,  you were quite adamant that I was wrong.....

...but You couldn't prove me wrong, could you,zolace?

It's not like the Bible has changed in the past few days.....

Would you care to look again and show us where I was wrong?

[sana8410]

Last time I checked you told me the Bible DIDN'T say the Sun orbited the Earth...... in fact,  you were quite adamant that I was wrong.....

...but You couldn't prove me wrong, could you,zolace?

It's not like the Bible has changed in the past few days.....

Would you care to look again and show us where I was wrong?

Keeping an open mind is important since no one can understand everything, but i doubt salvation is dependent on getting a doctrine right or being unsure up until the day of death. The problem is closing ones mind and then being in a position to hammer dogmatic beliefs onto others.

[sana8410]

I would point out that the Bible suggests in some places that salvation is not an action we initiate first but a drawing from God. Also even if someone believes they are secure in their own salvation what about people they love? How do they live with the idea of never ending torture for them?. This doctrine just on a common sense level falls short. If one believes choosing to accept God or not is a personal choice how does that square with one option meaning something no one would choose or even conceive? However if death as defined a ceasing of life forever, which all people are aware of anyway, then being free to choose (if that's what one believes) makes sense .

[Rigon]

I would point out that the Bible suggests in some places that salvation is not an action we initiate first but a drawing from God. Also even if someone believes they are secure in their own salvation what about people they love? How do they live with the idea of never ending torture for them?. This doctrine just on a common sense level falls short. If one believes choosing to accept God or not is a personal choice how does that square with one option meaning something no one would choose or even conceive? However if death as defined a ceasing of life forever, which all people are aware of anyway, then being free to choose (if that's what one believes) makes sense .

Keeping an open mind is all well & good, but first you must figure out what you are opening your mind to, right? For instance, this notion of "salvation". Now, don't get me wrong. I'll all for being saved, but I first would like to know what it is I'm being saved from.
If "salvation" is about some crack-pot religious belief that a fairy tale character ate an apple and condemned all mankind to hell simply for being born human.... I'll pass.  There are more imaginative fairy tales to put my "faith" into.

[zolace]

Bottom line, I as do all of us deserve God's wrath for our crimes.  But, I will never see that wrath because of Jesus.So, then, how does that fit into this tale you are spinning, rigon?  Who really is afraid here?

I didn't "spin" anything.
"God has promised me eternal life."    So you say, but you also believe dinosaurs, Adam and Eve ate grass together in The Garden of Eden 8000 years ago. 

Nothing contributes to emotional and mental stability like knowing one is secure in God's love, and that He will never leave you or forsake you.

[BADecker]

I know enough about the Bible, and Christianity,  to know that there is no confusion between right and wrong; reality and fantasy.
Zolace has been brainwashed to the point he doesn't know which way is up. ... but that doesn't stop him from preaching what he learned in Sunday School.
I have invited Zolace on many occasions to simply research the things he preaches, but he refuses to do it. He would rather preach the bullshit he learns from charlatans.
He is not a Christian, nor is he taking his faith from the Bible, but from the religious conmen he has placed his faith, who depend upon people like him to spread their lies.

Enough said.

But at the same time, those who get deep into the Bible face a danger. Not all the Jews and Hebrew people who got deep into the Bible were saved. In fact, these days most of the Jews in Israel will admit that they accept the Messiah of the Old Testament, but reject the Messiah of the New Testament. Why? Partially because of legalism, and the results of legalistic Jewish leaders, of the old days and now, who teach them that Jesus wasn't legalistic enough to be the Messiah.

Moses said in Deuteronomy 4:8, "And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?" Yet, many of the Hebrew people were tricked by the laws into believing that they had obeyed and could obey the laws perfectly enough that they could stand with the Messiah on their own strength. This is not so. We need the strength OF the Messiah to stand.

Acts 15:19-21 says, "19It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." Jews, of course, aren't Gentiles. Yet, it would be better for the Jews to be like Gentiles and be saved than it is for them to be deep into the Bible, legalistic, and damned.

The point? Zolace may preach. Zolace may have only partial knowledge of the Law - the O.T.. But Zolace is not legalistic like many of the unsaved Jews. Rather, he stands in faith in Jesus and is saved.

[sana8410]

I would point out that the Bible suggests in some places that salvation is not an action we initiate first but a drawing from God. Also even if someone believes they are secure in their own salvation what about people they love? How do they live with the idea of never ending torture for them?. This doctrine just on a common sense level falls short. If one believes choosing to accept God or not is a personal choice how does that square with one option meaning something no one would choose or even conceive? However if death as defined a ceasing of life forever, which all people are aware of anyway, then being free to choose (if that's what one believes) makes sense .

Keeping an open mind is all well & good, but first you must figure out what you are opening your mind to, right? For instance, this notion of "salvation". Now, don't get me wrong. I'll all for being saved, but I first would like to know what it is I'm being saved from.
If "salvation" is about some crack-pot religious belief that a fairy tale character ate an apple and condemned all mankind to hell simply for being born human.... I'll pass.  There are more imaginative fairy tales to put my "faith" into.

I saw something on the history channel about the stories in the Bible and one of them was about Noah's arc. The way they put it was that alien DNA was responsible for all the creatures loaded on this arc. The main point was it was the only way possible to bring 2 of every creature on, through DNA samples. The logic many Christians would use is anything is possible with God, but its also possible the stories were pictures we could understand while not taking anything away from what really happened. So i guess this explanation could help the skeptic who God i'm sure would know wouldn't believe such stories.

[Rigon]

Bottom line, I as do all of us deserve God's wrath for our crimes.  But, I will never see that wrath because of Jesus.So, then, how does that fit into this tale you are spinning, rigon?  Who really is afraid here?

I didn't "spin" anything.
"God has promised me eternal life."    So you say, but you also believe dinosaurs, Adam and Eve ate grass together in The Garden of Eden 8000 years ago. 

Nothing contributes to emotional and mental stability like knowing one is secure in God's love, and that He will never leave you or forsake you.

Then what is your problem,?  You live in constant fear that you will think an "evil" though and piss off your "god" and he'll send you to hell. 
I sleep very well, secure in the fact that there is no bogeyman.  Too bad you can't claim the same.

[zolace]

Bottom line, I as do all of us deserve God's wrath for our crimes.  But, I will never see that wrath because of Jesus.So, then, how does that fit into this tale you are spinning, rigon?  Who really is afraid here?

I didn't "spin" anything.
"God has promised me eternal life."    So you say, but you also believe dinosaurs, Adam and Eve ate grass together in The Garden of Eden 8000 years ago. 

Nothing contributes to emotional and mental stability like knowing one is secure in God's love, and that He will never leave you or forsake you.

Then what is your problem,?  You live in constant fear that you will think an "evil" though and piss off your "god" and he'll send you to hell. 
I sleep very well, secure in the fact that there is no bogeyman.  Too bad you can't claim the same.

Actually, rigon,, based on your posts, I doubt you are as exempt from fear as you say.  If you had no fear you would not need to misrepresent what others post.

[BADecker]

I saw something on the history channel about the stories in the Bible and one of them was about Noah's arc. The way they put it was that alien DNA was responsible for all the creatures loaded on this arc. The main point was it was the only way possible to bring 2 of every creature on, through DNA samples. The logic many Christians would use is anything is possible with God, but its also possible the stories were pictures we could understand while not taking anything away from what really happened. So i guess this explanation could help the skeptic who God i'm sure would know wouldn't believe such stories.

Just a technical note. If you read Genesis carefully, you will see that it was 7 pair, a male and his mate, of clean animals, and 2 pair of unclean animals. 

[BADecker]

Then what is your problem,?  You live in constant fear that you will think an "evil" though and piss off your "god" and he'll send you to hell. 
I sleep very well, secure in the fact that there is no bogeyman.  Too bad you can't claim the same.

It's good to not live in fear. But it is good also to live aware of what's going on around you.

Just look in the news to see how many people "... sleep very well, secure in the fact that there is no bogeyman," and then S.W.A.T. disrupts their dreams.

[zolace]

Then what is your problem,?  You live in constant fear that you will think an "evil" though and piss off your "god" and he'll send you to hell. 
I sleep very well, secure in the fact that there is no bogeyman.  Too bad you can't claim the same.

It's good to not live in fear. But it is good also to live aware of what's going on around you.

Just look in the news to see how many people "... sleep very well, secure in the fact that there is no bogeyman," and then S.W.A.T. disrupts their dreams.

I have no such fear.  Once I did, before having peace with God, but not now.  As Jesus said, all that come to Him for salvation he will in no way cast out.  I think you are projecting.

[zolace]

As it is said, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.  But, as we have all done the crime, we need Someone to stand in the gap for us.

What folks don't realize is that God expects us not to be 'good' but to be perfect.  And none of us are.  So, the idea that by trying to be good we will get on his good side is really foolish.

We all fall short of the glory of God.

[Rigon]

As it is said, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.  But, as we have all done the crime, we need Someone to stand in the gap for us.

What folks don't realize is that God expects us not to be 'good' but to be perfect.  And none of us are.  So, the idea that by trying to be good we will get on his good side is really foolish.

We all fall short of the glory of God.

What do I have to fear?  Do I fear wicked witches in gingerbread houses preying upon naive children?  Is the bad bad wolf something I should fear? Are there evil giants living in the sky up the nearest beanstalk?
You have never been able to present anything that demonstrates your cockamamie beliefs are anything other than stories intended to frighten little children, but you have to tell lies about others who don't believe the way you do... and you live in a fucked-up fantasy world filled with "evil" monsters just waiting to send you to hell if you dare question the conmen and charlatans that brainwashed you.

In the past you have claimed you have evidence of the existence of your "creator", but have never presented it.
In the past you have claimed to have proof that your "creator" answers prayer, and/or intervenes on behalf of those who believe in it.

[Rigon]

So in review....
You have absolutely no evidence for the existence of this "creator" of yours....NONE! Zip; zero; nada; zilch.  So what other motivation could  you have for believing in it except for your childish beliefs that after you die you won't be sent to hell?