What happens to the wicked upon death?

[zolace]

As it is said, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.  But, as we have all done the crime, we need Someone to stand in the gap for us.

What folks don't realize is that God expects us not to be 'good' but to be perfect.  And none of us are.  So, the idea that by trying to be good we will get on his good side is really foolish.

We all fall short of the glory of God.

What do I have to fear?  Do I fear wicked witches in gingerbread houses preying upon naive children?  Is the bad bad wolf something I should fear? Are there evil giants living in the sky up the nearest beanstalk?
You have never been able to present anything that demonstrates your cockamamie beliefs are anything other than stories intended to frighten little children, but you have to tell lies about others who don't believe the way you do... and you live in a fucked-up fantasy world filled with "evil" monsters just waiting to send you to hell if you dare question the conmen and charlatans that brainwashed you.

In the past you have claimed you have evidence of the existence of your "creator", but have never presented it.
In the past you have claimed to have proof that your "creator" answers prayer, and/or intervenes on behalf of those who believe in it.

The obvious thing here is that you do fear.  And your posts can be irrational.

Both in the end, the choice is yours.  We all have a god in our lives - if it is not the Creator, then it is one of our own creations, be it a stone or tree or our own intellect.

[zolace]

So in review....
You have absolutely no evidence for the existence of this "creator" of yours....NONE! Zip; zero; nada; zilch.  So what other motivation could  you have for believing in it except for your childish beliefs that after you die you won't be sent to hell?

So, who are you protecting?  Because, lets face it, some folks who agree with your position have rebuked you.  I would suggest that, for you, the better approach is to say nothing, given the type of reaction you generate, and perhaps even sympathy for me.  Why would you want that?  You then go after that person, even though they agree with your position.

But I don't think you can keep quiet, because of some deeper issue here with you.  Perhaps you are afraid that you yourself might end up believing the very thing you argue against?  Or perhaps you are afraid that there may be some truth to it?

[Rigon]

So in review....
You have absolutely no evidence for the existence of this "creator" of yours....NONE! Zip; zero; nada; zilch.  So what other motivation could  you have for believing in it except for your childish beliefs that after you die you won't be sent to hell?

So, who are you protecting?  Because, lets face it, some folks who agree with your position have rebuked you.  I would suggest that, for you, the better approach is to say nothing, given the type of reaction you generate, and perhaps even sympathy for me.  Why would you want that?  You then go after that person, even though they agree with your position.

But I don't think you can keep quiet, because of some deeper issue here with you.  Perhaps you are afraid that you yourself might end up believing the very thing you argue against?  Or perhaps you are afraid that there may be some truth to it?

No. That is one more lie. No one has rebuked me. How could they? It's not like anyone but you is going to rebuke someone posting the truth.

[zolace]

So in review....
You have absolutely no evidence for the existence of this "creator" of yours....NONE! Zip; zero; nada; zilch.  So what other motivation could  you have for believing in it except for your childish beliefs that after you die you won't be sent to hell?

So, who are you protecting?  Because, lets face it, some folks who agree with your position have rebuked you.  I would suggest that, for you, the better approach is to say nothing, given the type of reaction you generate, and perhaps even sympathy for me.  Why would you want that?  You then go after that person, even though they agree with your position.

But I don't think you can keep quiet, because of some deeper issue here with you.  Perhaps you are afraid that you yourself might end up believing the very thing you argue against?  Or perhaps you are afraid that there may be some truth to it?

No. That is one more lie. No one has rebuked me. How could they? It's not like anyone but you is going to rebuke someone posting the truth.

I don't mind hearing from you, even as you disagree, as long as you are actually contributing to the debate, and not just descending into one of your rages.

[sana8410]

I think it would be the final judgment, not pleasant but not eternal, each judged on their works
from rev 20

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

saints are with Jesus, the unsaved remain dead or killed when Jesus comes 4-6

7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Satan and his armies war against the saints 7-10

11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

1000 years are done the rest of the dead are judged and also thrown into the lake of fire 11-15

[zolace]

Sana8410,I don't think this passage was brought up here.  What we have is Moses and Elijah alive.  Of course, Elijah is one of two men in the Old Testament that left this world without dying, but Moses died.

Mark Chapter 9
1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand [by], who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them;
3 and his garments became glistering, exceeding white, so as no fuller on earth can whiten them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elijah with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
5 And Peter answereth and saith to Jesus, Rabbi, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.
6 For he knew not what to answer; for they became sore afraid.
7 And there came a cloud overshadowing them: and there came a voice out of the cloud, This is my beloved Son: hear ye him.

[sana8410]

Enoch also, exceptions, there's also this from Matt 27;

50And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit. 51And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent; 52and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised; 53and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many. 54Now the centurion, and they that were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

were these the ones John saw in his vision in Revelation 20;4 or was he seeing a future event of all the "saints" that will be in Heaven, then we are told David is not among these in acts....

29Men and brothers, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us to this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which you now see and hear. 34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens,

It confusing to me because it goes to when the 1000 year rien begins, but makes sense that in what we understand being subject to time that some may have the first shot at heaven while others wait. Christ being timeless could still be the first friuts. So i think your point (if i guess your point right) that we go to heaven or hell at death is moot, and at the end we all get what we are descend for

[zolace]

Enoch also, exceptions, there's also this from Matt 27;

50And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit. 51And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent; 52and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised; 53and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many. 54Now the centurion, and they that were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

were these the ones John saw in his vision in Revelation 20;4 or was he seeing a future event of all the "saints" that will be in Heaven, then we are told David is not among these in acts....

29Men and brothers, let me freely speak to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us to this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which you now see and hear. 34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens,

It confusing to me because it goes to when the 1000 year rien begins, but makes sense that in what we understand being subject to time that some may have the first shot at heaven while others wait. Christ being timeless could still be the first friuts. So i think your point (if i guess your point right) that we go to heaven or hell at death is moot, and at the end we all get what we are descend for

I brought up Elijah as he was with Moses meeting with Jesus in the gospels, but Moses I had in mind.

But, yeah, Enoch also left this world without dying - him and Elijah are the only ones mentioned as having done so in the Old Testament.  Elijah being Jewish, Enoch existing before the flood (ancestor to all folks living today).

An aside, but, the coming rapture of Christians at Jesus' return ("the dead shall rise and then we who are alive then join them" - 1Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15) is not some new concept.  I think alot of folk do not realize that there were two occurrences prior.

[zolace]

But some do - I worked for a Jewish company years ago, and though most were not that religious, the lead programmer who taught me was.  This subject somehow came up, and he knew about Elijah, but Enoch he disagreed with at first.

But, then upon reading the passage, he could see why one would conclude he left without dying also; I don't think he had ever given it thought.  Not sure what came of that with him later.

[BADecker]

But some do - I worked for a Jewish company years ago, and though most were not that religious, the lead programmer who taught me was.  This subject somehow came up, and he knew about Elijah, but Enoch he disagreed with at first.

But, then upon reading the passage, he could see why one would conclude he left without dying also; I don't think he had ever given it thought.  Not sure what came of that with him later.

Of course, then there is Melchizedek. Hebrews 7:3, "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever."

[sana8410]

But some do - I worked for a Jewish company years ago, and though most were not that religious, the lead programmer who taught me was.  This subject somehow came up, and he knew about Elijah, but Enoch he disagreed with at first.

But, then upon reading the passage, he could see why one would conclude he left without dying also; I don't think he had ever given it thought.  Not sure what came of that with him later.

Of course, then there is Melchizedek. Hebrews 7:3, "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever."

In the book of Jude its said that satan disputed the body of moses with the arc angel Michael. I wonder why?

[zolace]

But some do - I worked for a Jewish company years ago, and though most were not that religious, the lead programmer who taught me was.  This subject somehow came up, and he knew about Elijah, but Enoch he disagreed with at first.

But, then upon reading the passage, he could see why one would conclude he left without dying also; I don't think he had ever given it thought.  Not sure what came of that with him later.

Of course, then there is Melchizedek. Hebrews 7:3, "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever."

In the book of Jude its said that satan disputed the body of moses with the arc angel Michael. I wonder why?

I have heard possible explanations, but I don't think it says anywhere in the scriptures as to the reason why.  At least, I am not aware of any.

[Rigon]

But some do - I worked for a Jewish company years ago, and though most were not that religious, the lead programmer who taught me was.  This subject somehow came up, and he knew about Elijah, but Enoch he disagreed with at first.

But, then upon reading the passage, he could see why one would conclude he left without dying also; I don't think he had ever given it thought.  Not sure what came of that with him later.

Of course, then there is Melchizedek. Hebrews 7:3, "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever."

In the book of Jude its said that satan disputed the body of moses with the arc angel Michael. I wonder why?

I have heard possible explanations, but I don't think it says anywhere in the scriptures as to the reason why.  At least, I am not aware of any.

God commanded Moses/Joshua to kill-murder.....

What happened to those The Israelites murdered, Zolace? Were they "wicked"?

How about the millions  who died during The Inquisition(s) ......  what happened to them?

How many times must I mention the times when your "creator" commanded his followers to murder of innocent people?

not like it's secret.

[peeveepee]

One man's hero is another man's villain.


As for what happen to the "wicked", probably nothing.

[Mr.Bitty]

It appears that the question the focus is on the word "wicked."  The following discussion all seems to depend on the definition of "wicked."
The Bible tells us that God allows people to reject Him.  He doesn't force Himself on to people.  He gives us free will.  He gives us enough evidence of His presence for people to choose to love Him or reject Him.  

He's not going to force those who reject Him to spend eternity with Him.  They wouldn't be happy.  

Consequently, those who reject God, choose to separate themselves from God.  That is exactly what they get.

[Rigon]

It appears that the question the focus is on the word "wicked."  The following discussion all seems to depend on the definition of "wicked."
The Bible tells us that God allows people to reject Him.  He doesn't force Himself on to people.  He gives us free will.  He gives us enough evidence of His presence for people to choose to love Him or reject Him.  

He's not going to force those who reject Him to spend eternity with Him.  They wouldn't be happy.  

Consequently, those who reject God, choose to separate themselves from God.  That is exactly what they get.

It's not that easy.

(within the context of the NT scripture)......

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
-Mark 16:15-16


Obviously the NT scripture indicates that your "god" will "condemn" anyone who doesn't worship it. Hardly an endorsement for freedom of religion, or freedom FROM religion, as the free-will choice might be. Nothing in the Bible indicates anyone has true free-will to either accept or reject your "god". In every case, if a person rejects your "god" the person is condemned to hell.... no exceptions.

I maintain that this is the basis of your personal religious convictions, compounded by 2000+ years of religious brainwashing and mindless beliefs in fairy tales.... 
You're afraid of pissing-off your fairy tale "god" and going to Hell.

Free-will at gun-point.

[sana8410]

It appears that the question the focus is on the word "wicked."  The following discussion all seems to depend on the definition of "wicked."
The Bible tells us that God allows people to reject Him.  He doesn't force Himself on to people.  He gives us free will.  He gives us enough evidence of His presence for people to choose to love Him or reject Him.  

He's not going to force those who reject Him to spend eternity with Him.  They wouldn't be happy.  

Consequently, those who reject God, choose to separate themselves from God.  That is exactly what they get.

How do you define separation?

[Mr.Bitty]

It appears that the question the focus is on the word "wicked."  The following discussion all seems to depend on the definition of "wicked."
The Bible tells us that God allows people to reject Him.  He doesn't force Himself on to people.  He gives us free will.  He gives us enough evidence of His presence for people to choose to love Him or reject Him.  

He's not going to force those who reject Him to spend eternity with Him.  They wouldn't be happy.  

Consequently, those who reject God, choose to separate themselves from God.  That is exactly what they get.

How do you define separation?

Separation would mean not being with God.....cut off from God. 

God doesn't separate Himself from anyone, but He allows people to separate themselves from Him.  Not everyone likes God.  If someone doesn't like God, they would not likely be happy in Heaven.  Heaven is pretty God centered.

[noviapriani]

I love you and I give you free will...but if you don’t worship me I will burn you for eternity.   And by the way, don’t expect any favors from worshiping me.  I will still kill your kids in a car accident and cause you to lose your job, and then your house will blow away in a hurricane.  But I love you and I am always here for you watching over you every moment.

Lewis Black has a term for this...."stone cold fucking nuts"

[zolace]

I love you and I give you free will...but if you don’t worship me I will burn you for eternity.   And by the way, don’t expect any favors from worshiping me.  I will still kill your kids in a car accident and cause you to lose your job, and then your house will blow away in a hurricane.  But I love you and I am always here for you watching over you every moment.

Lewis Black has a term for this...."stone cold fucking nuts"

I don't think most Christians take that fire thing literally.  God gives us free will.  He doesn't punish people for not worshiping Him.  He gives us free will to accept him or reject him.  

He doesn't suspend natural law for his worshipers.  It would be a little crazy if he did.