What happens to the wicked upon death?

[Mr.Bitty]

I love you and I give you free will...but if you don’t worship me I will burn you for eternity.   And by the way, don’t expect any favors from worshiping me.  I will still kill your kids in a car accident and cause you to lose your job, and then your house will blow away in a hurricane.  But I love you and I am always here for you watching over you every moment.

Lewis Black has a term for this...."stone cold fucking nuts"

I don't think most Christians take that fire thing literally.  God gives us free will.  He doesn't punish people for not worshiping Him.  He gives us free will to accept him or reject him.  

He doesn't suspend natural law for his worshipers.  It would be a little crazy if he did.  

Then what exactly happens to people in eternity if they dont worship God if he doesnt really care if you do or dont?  I love the millions of different interpretations christians have.  Its like...hey...whatever you want to believe about god you can pretty much rationalize somewhere in the bible.

[Mr.Bitty]

Please tell us which bits of the bible we may appropriately take literally and which we cant....let me guess...dont take any of the bad stuff literally, but the good stuff is straight from God's mouth?

[sana8410]

It appears that the question the focus is on the word "wicked."  The following discussion all seems to depend on the definition of "wicked."
The Bible tells us that God allows people to reject Him.  He doesn't force Himself on to people.  He gives us free will.  He gives us enough evidence of His presence for people to choose to love Him or reject Him.  

He's not going to force those who reject Him to spend eternity with Him.  They wouldn't be happy.  

Consequently, those who reject God, choose to separate themselves from God.  That is exactly what they get.

How do you define separation?

Separation would mean not being with God.....cut off from God. 

God doesn't separate Himself from anyone, but He allows people to separate themselves from Him.  Not everyone likes God.  If someone doesn't like God, they would not likely be happy in Heaven.  Heaven is pretty God centered.

Well you just repeated your last response. The thread asks what happens to the wicked at death. And to take issue that some would not like Heaven seems odd when we see how heaven is described in the Bible, no tears, suffering or death, having a glorified body free of corruption, flowing waters, streets of gold etc

[jersey19957]

Absolutely, theres no judgement, thats deluded.

[Mr.Bitty]

It appears that the question the focus is on the word "wicked."  The following discussion all seems to depend on the definition of "wicked."
The Bible tells us that God allows people to reject Him.  He doesn't force Himself on to people.  He gives us free will.  He gives us enough evidence of His presence for people to choose to love Him or reject Him.  

He's not going to force those who reject Him to spend eternity with Him.  They wouldn't be happy.  

Consequently, those who reject God, choose to separate themselves from God.  That is exactly what they get.

How do you define separation?

Separation would mean not being with God.....cut off from God. 

God doesn't separate Himself from anyone, but He allows people to separate themselves from Him.  Not everyone likes God.  If someone doesn't like God, they would not likely be happy in Heaven.  Heaven is pretty God centered.

Well you just repeated your last response. The thread asks what happens to the wicked at death. And to take issue that some would not like Heaven seems odd when we see how heaven is described in the Bible, no tears, suffering or death, having a glorified body free of corruption, flowing waters, streets of gold etc

Ive asked this a number of times.  On one hand God wants you to have free will.  We need not accept him.  He is perfectly OK with it. On the other....he is most certainly not OK with it an holds a grudge for all eternity.

OK...so what happens to us upon death?  Does god hold a fucking grudge or not?  The bible is very clear on this issue.  He holds a grudge for all eternity.  EVER!!!!!!

Zolace has said she thinks most christians dont take that literally....so here we go with this again...please tell us which parts of the bible are literal and which arent...and those that arent literal, what do they mean exactly?  If the eternal fire is not literal, then what does it allude to?

The most amazing thing about indoctrination is the circles people will go in to maintain it.

[sana8410]

What you ask is the main reason i decided to explore this. Some say (and there is some evidence of this) that its all predestined which makes all this even more unbelievable, which means we don't have choice yet still suffer for eternity. The lighter side is we do have choice but if we choose wrong we suffer for all eternity, which is not a choice. The fact as i see it and what makes more sense is we return to the state before birth which is non-existence, or no conscience existence. Zolace isn't being clear but if he believes in an eternal hell he would have to conclude its not so bad and people would choice to be there instead .

[Mr.Bitty]

What you ask is the main reason i decided to explore this. Some say (and there is some evidence of this) that its all predestined which makes all this even more unbelievable, which means we don't have choice yet still suffer for eternity. The lighter side is we do have choice but if we choose wrong we suffer for all eternity, which is not a choice. The fact as i see it and what makes more sense is we return to the state before birth which is non-existence, or no conscience existence. Zolace isn't being clear but if he believes in an eternal hell he would have to conclude its not so bad and people would choice to be there instead .

In that case I prefer to be with everyone I know and call friends in hell .

[zolace]

What you ask is the main reason i decided to explore this. Some say (and there is some evidence of this) that its all predestined which makes all this even more unbelievable, which means we don't have choice yet still suffer for eternity. The lighter side is we do have choice but if we choose wrong we suffer for all eternity, which is not a choice. The fact as i see it and what makes more sense is we return to the state before birth which is non-existence, or no conscience existence. Zolace isn't being clear but if he believes in an eternal hell he would have to conclude its not so bad and people would choice to be there instead .

That is the theology of predestination.  Shortly after the Reformation, John Calvin came up with a theology in which he claimed that God predestined everything including who would go to Heaven and who wouldn't.  Those he created for Heaven wouldn't have a choice because the desire for God would be so great.  Those not created for Heaven wouldn't be able to accept Christ.

Then was another theologian about the same time named Jacobus Arminius, who argued against predestination and for the concept of Free Will.  Calvin's theory makes absolutely no sense to me .  One cannot call Catholicism either Calvinist or Arminian because it came before either of those theologians, but Catholics believe in free will, so in that respect you might say it's Arminian.

[zolace]

What you ask is the main reason i decided to explore this. Some say (and there is some evidence of this) that its all predestined which makes all this even more unbelievable, which means we don't have choice yet still suffer for eternity. The lighter side is we do have choice but if we choose wrong we suffer for all eternity, which is not a choice. The fact as i see it and what makes more sense is we return to the state before birth which is non-existence, or no conscience existence. Zolace isn't being clear but if he believes in an eternal hell he would have to conclude its not so bad and people would choice to be there instead .

In that case I prefer to be with everyone I know and call friends in hell .

As for the part where you said Hell is not so bad and people would choose to be there instead, I certainly wouldn't choose it.  It boils down to whether you love God and what to choose to be with God for eternity or if you don't like God and would prefer to be without Him.  Eternity begins now.  We make those decisions along the way and we either develop a relationship with God or become more distant from his as time goes on.  In the end, God doesn't send us anywhere.  We make those decisions to go in Hell or in Heaven ..is called free will.

[zolace]

As with all decisions, there are sometimes unforeseen consequences.  Those who choose to be without God find themselves in the company of others who are cut off from God.  It's the same way now.  We choose the type of life we want to lead. Eternity begins now. 

There's a wide variety of people who reject God.  Some are dangerous and others have a sense of ethics.  Most want their own will rather than yield to the will of a force in the universe. 

[zolace]

Let me put it another way.  There was a movie years ago called something like, Escape from New York.  I didn't see the movie but just remember the trailers, so I may have some of the details wrong.  It seems that the people in the country built a huge wall around New York.  They just put criminals in New York and let them fend for themselves.  There were no prison guards or police.  Everyone was free to try to make a living and live their lives.  Some of the criminals had committed minor crimes and some had committed horrendous crimes.  You can probably figure out the rest.  That is my concept of Hell.  I don't want to be there.  Those who don't like God might prefer it or they might not consider what it would be like without God.

[Mr.Bitty]

We have no choice where we are going according to the bible in many places.  Predestiny chosen by God is pretty clear.  So its not my fault I am what I am,......god chose my every action......and now he will send me to hell, which was also predestined.  

The thing that gets me is that every single person on earth can have different opinions about what all the bits of the bible....and they all think they are right....correction...KNOW they are right.

I have asked counteless people how they tell which bits are figurative, allegory, or literal fact and truth.


Regarding predestiny...of course I already know the answer.....we have free will, but god always knew what our free will would be because he gave it to us.    Still...the only conclusion here is that god gave me my free will and knew I would choose hell.......so he knew he was giving me hell.  I think there is a biblical quote where god rationalizes this and says something like  "does not a potter not make a vessel for both honorable and for dishonorable occassions?"

The fully indoctrinated brainwashed masses can rationalize anything.

Quotes on predestiny

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-does-the-bible-teach-about-free-will-and-predestination/


Jeremiah states that God knew us even before we were born in chapter one, verse 4-5: “The word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart, I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Isaiah 43:7 also presents evidence that God knew us before hand and had plans for us, “everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”

Job 23:14 declares, “He carries out his decree against me, and many such plans he still has in store.”

I Corinthians 2:7 says “…we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.”

Paul understood that he was called by God as evidenced in Galatians 1:15, “But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased.”

There is no book in the Bible that contains more references of predestination than in the book of Ephesians and no chapter more so than chapter one:

Verses 4-11; “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

In Ephesians 1:5, where it says, “he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…” the Greek word for adoption to sonship is a legal term referring to the full legal standing of an adopted male heir in Roman culture.
God’s Predestining Your Life

How can freewill fit into the framework of God’s sovereignty and God’s predetermination to save us? Just look what God planned for you before the earth even existed:

        God had planned you even before you were born or before you were in our mother‘s womb (Jer. 1:4).
        He planned things for you in the future before the earth or time existed (I Cor. 2:7).
        He had made plans for your life to give you His grace before you were born (Gal 1:15).
        He chose you and called you to redemption to be saved and be made holy (Eph 1:4).
        He chose you before your birth to bless you and save you through Christ (Eph. 1:3-4).
        He planned your adoption prior to your birth (Eph. 1:5).
        And according to His good pleasure, revealed the secrets things of God to you (Eph.1:9).



Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-does-the-bible-teach-about-free-will-and-predestination/#ixzz1xJC8YXkK

[Mr.Bitty]

Let me put it another way.  There was a movie years ago called something like, Escape from New York.  I didn't see the movie but just remember the trailers, so I may have some of the details wrong.  It seems that the people in the country built a huge wall around New York.  They just put criminals in New York and let them fend for themselves.  There were no prison guards or police.  Everyone was free to try to make a living and live their lives.  Some of the criminals had committed minor crimes and some had committed horrendous crimes.  You can probably figure out the rest.  That is my concept of Hell.  I don't want to be there.  Those who don't like God might prefer it or they might not consider what it would be like without God.

If everything you say is correct ...your god is still a prick.

"Love me with all your heart or Im sending you to a really shitty place".   Is that how any human being should feel toward another?  Why would we let our friends, bosses, lovers, or even Gods treat us that way?

Its hogwash.

It is amazing how religious people can criticize something known like evolution all the while rationalizing a fairy tale.  You cant see evolution, you werent there, you cant know...blah blah blah. When we have literally mountains of empirical evidence of the fact of evolution and have indeed observed it in action in the wild.  They do not understand that a scientific theory is the mechanism of how something that is known works.  Evolution is known...the mechanisms and the history and the body of knowledge which includes facts and hypotheses, is the Theory of Evolution.

[Mr.Bitty]

In any event, they question the validity of something fully KNOWN with great earnest....but dont question anything about their fairy tales for which they have not one iota of evidence.

Is that rational?.....Only to an indoctrinated brainwashed person. When early travellers sailed to foreign lands and met strange peoples and heard their stories of gods and worship, they laughed and thought...these people are clearly effing savages and  nuts.  This is exatly what any alien race would think if they landed and listened to you people....these earth people are effin stone cold nuts.  They seem civilized and able to function, but they are otherwise completely out of their minds.

[zolace]

Let me put it another way.  There was a movie years ago called something like, Escape from New York.  I didn't see the movie but just remember the trailers, so I may have some of the details wrong.  It seems that the people in the country built a huge wall around New York.  They just put criminals in New York and let them fend for themselves.  There were no prison guards or police.  Everyone was free to try to make a living and live their lives.  Some of the criminals had committed minor crimes and some had committed horrendous crimes.  You can probably figure out the rest.  That is my concept of Hell.  I don't want to be there.  Those who don't like God might prefer it or they might not consider what it would be like without God.

If everything you say is correct ...your god is still a prick.

"Love me with all your heart or Im sending you to a really shitty place".   Is that how any human being should feel toward another?  Why would we let our friends, bosses, lovers, or even Gods treat us that way?

Its hogwash.

It is amazing how religious people can criticize something known like evolution all the while rationalizing a fairy tale.  You cant see evolution, you werent there, you cant know...blah blah blah. When we have literally mountains of empirical evidence of the fact of evolution and have indeed observed it in action in the wild.  They do not understand that a scientific theory is the mechanism of how something that is known works.  Evolution is known...the mechanisms and the history and the body of knowledge which includes facts and hypotheses, is the Theory of Evolution.

I did notice that you said God "sends" people to a terrible place.  He doesn't send people anywhere.  People choose what they want.  It's natural consequences.  

Those who believe in Karma often are not far away from Christians who believe in free will.  One big difference is that those who talk about Karma have no one they can blame except themselves.  You set an energy into motion and it eventually comes back to you.  You reap what you sow.  You are not in harmony with the Universe but fight against it and you suffer the consequences.  

[zolace]

In any event, they question the validity of something fully KNOWN with great earnest....but dont question anything about their fairy tales for which they have not one iota of evidence.

Is that rational?.....Only to an indoctrinated brainwashed person. When early travellers sailed to foreign lands and met strange peoples and heard their stories of gods and worship, they laughed and thought...these people are clearly effing savages and  nuts.  This is exatly what any alien race would think if they landed and listened to you people....these earth people are effin stone cold nuts.  They seem civilized and able to function, but they are otherwise completely out of their minds.

God has more than one way of speaking to us.  The Bible is only one way.  It is an important way, but not the only way.  We can see how the universe works and we can recognize the force in the universe and love or not like it.  We can be in harmony with it or we can fight against it.  Those who love God, trust the universe.

[Mr.Bitty]

In any event, they question the validity of something fully KNOWN with great earnest....but dont question anything about their fairy tales for which they have not one iota of evidence.

Is that rational?.....Only to an indoctrinated brainwashed person. When early travellers sailed to foreign lands and met strange peoples and heard their stories of gods and worship, they laughed and thought...these people are clearly effing savages and  nuts.  This is exatly what any alien race would think if they landed and listened to you people....these earth people are effin stone cold nuts.  They seem civilized and able to function, but they are otherwise completely out of their minds.

God has more than one way of speaking to us.  The Bible is only one way.  It is an important way, but not the only way.  We can see how the universe works and we can recognize the force in the universe and love or not like it.  We can be in harmony with it or we can fight against it.  Those who love God, trust the universe.

The fact of the matter is quite simply that your god will not allow me to be in a good place for eternity if I dont worship him properly.  That's my definition of a prick (ALMOST PROFANITY ALERT).  He clearly doesnt love us. He lets millions of young girls be raped, mutilated and abused every day, many who abide by his alleged bullshit (PROFANITY ALERT) in the bible. You call this love, I call him either malevolent, inept, or evil.

My god aint like that. My higher power is gravity and the universe...it made everything happen and has always been here.  It wasnt created a by bearded invisible man in the sky, it exists.  My god cant help girls from being raped, your god can but doesnt.

[zolace]

The book, The Good and Beautiful God talks about how God shows Himself in nature and in the universe.  Some people love that force and others go through life shaking their fist at it.  You make your choices and you live with those choices.  

[zolace]

In any event, they question the validity of something fully KNOWN with great earnest....but dont question anything about their fairy tales for which they have not one iota of evidence.

Is that rational?.....Only to an indoctrinated brainwashed person. When early travellers sailed to foreign lands and met strange peoples and heard their stories of gods and worship, they laughed and thought...these people are clearly effing savages and  nuts.  This is exatly what any alien race would think if they landed and listened to you people....these earth people are effin stone cold nuts.  They seem civilized and able to function, but they are otherwise completely out of their minds.

God has more than one way of speaking to us.  The Bible is only one way.  It is an important way, but not the only way.  We can see how the universe works and we can recognize the force in the universe and love or not like it.  We can be in harmony with it or we can fight against it.  Those who love God, trust the universe.

The fact of the matter is quite simply that your god will not allow me to be in a good place for eternity if I dont worship him properly.  That's my definition of a prick (ALMOST PROFANITY ALERT).  He clearly doesnt love us. He lets millions of young girls be raped, mutilated and abused every day, many who abide by his alleged bullshit (PROFANITY ALERT) in the bible. You call this love, I call him either malevolent, inept, or evil.

My god aint like that. My higher power is gravity and the universe...it made everything happen and has always been here.  It wasnt created a by bearded invisible man in the sky, it exists.  My god cant help girls from being raped, your god can but doesnt.

That's about the size of it.  There's not much more to discuss with you.  If you don't like God, you would not be happy in Heaven.  You say that he will not allow you to be in a good place.  If you don't love God, would you really consider that to be a good place.  I don't think so.  You make your choices.
The only way that God could keep girls from getting raped is to take away free will or remove rapists from the world.  That is pretty much what He does with eternity.  Only those who love God and seek to do His will can enter Heaven.  There will be no rapists there unless they have repented and then they will no longer be rapists.

God is also the God of gravity and the God of natural law.  You seem to get angry at him for not suspending natural law. 

[zolace]

Mr.Bitty,you can argue against Karma or against the idea there's a force in the universe, but in the end, when you set an energy into motion, it eventually comes back to you and the choices you make determine what your life is like.  Eternity doesn't start after we die.