It's about time to turn off PoW mining

[fabiola!]

price decreasing and difficulty increasing

this is the world turned over

255 today...could it get any lower tomorrow?

[johnyj]

price decreasing and difficulty increasing

this is the world turned over

Some state-owned chinese companies are using bitcoin farms to convert their free electricity into fiat money 

[kokojie]

price decreasing and difficulty increasing

this is the world turned over

Some state-owned chinese companies are using bitcoin farms to convert their free electricity into fiat money  

That's exactly the problem with PoW, it's value extracted from current Bitcoin holders, just by expending electricity. Basically current Bitcoin holders is spending $500k dollar per day, just to buy electricity that is useless, wasted and unneeded.  Wasteful PoW mining can be easily replaced with a Proof of Stake system.

You don't let some miner from China control your personal finance, why let miners control your Bitcoin network? Bitcoin stakeholders should be the controller of Bitcoin network, not some random profit crazy mining farm from China.

[fonenumba]

price decreasing and difficulty increasing

this is the world turned over

Some state-owned chinese companies are using bitcoin farms to convert their free electricity into fiat money  

That's exactly the problem with PoW, it's value extracted from current Bitcoin holders, just by expending electricity. Basically current Bitcoin holders is spending $500k dollar per day, just to buy electricity that is useless, wasted and unneeded.  Wasteful PoW mining can be easily replaced with a Proof of Stake system.

You don't let some miner from China control your personal finance, why let miners control your Bitcoin network? Bitcoin stakeholders should be the controller of Bitcoin network, not some random profit crazy mining farm from China.

You are incorrect. The profit seeking mining farm (with free electricity) has an incentive to maintain the long term security of the network because if the network is not secure then the mining farm will lose out on their investment on their mining equipment. If someone were to try to attack a PoS coin then they would be able to sell their PoS coin before anyone would even notice it was atacked

[jonald_fyookball]

30 pages of the same arguments on both sides...

its all been said, time to let the thread die.

[Oscilson]

I use PoW mining to warm my house.

[kokojie]

I use PoW mining to warm my house.

Then you only mine in winter? good luck with ROI on your hardware.

[thriftshopping]

I use PoW mining to warm my house.

Then you only mine in winter? good luck with ROI on your hardware.

it would be possible to mine with generally obsolete hardware that is very cheap that double as both a space heater and a miner.

It would also be possible that he lives in a very cold part of the world where it is close year round so he would not need to turn off his miners in the "summer"

[phillipsjk]

I use PoW mining to warm my house.

Then you only mine in winter? good luck with ROI on your hardware.

it would be possible to mine with generally obsolete hardware that is very cheap that double as both a space heater and a miner.

It would also be possible that he lives in a very cold part of the world where it is close year round so he would not need to turn off his miners in the "summer"

I live 55° North. Electric heat is not used much due to the cost. Mostly natural gas is used (which has lower transmission losses).

I also figured out that even space-heaters should be within one generation or so. That way you get more hashing/watt.

Edit: That said, I did spin up an 80-100W "space heater" when it got cold. I earned like $1 worth of Freicoin while using only about $10 worth of electricity ("free" power, but don't want to abuse it).

[Baitty]

Which is more expensive overall compared to profit?

[Q7]

After seeing the price crash I'm ready to turn into a believer in this and what benefit it would bring. What I mean is about giving everybody a chance... rather than miners we could have something like a cpu driven concept, where we can actually let anybody to leave their computers on and contribute towards the hash rate.

So indirectly you are rewarding common people, main thing is to earn interest by holding on to the coin. I'm sure that could mean something.

[achimsmile]

rather than miners we could have something like a cpu driven concept, where we can actually let anybody to leave their computers on and contribute towards the hash rate.

That is how PoS works (except the hashrate part).

You have to leave your CPU running in order to generate a block. And it's 100% ASIC resistant   

[Flashman]

And it's 100% ASIC resistant   

What about an ASIC with 1000 dumbass ARM cores that only run a trimmed down linux plus wallet?

[achimsmile]

And it's 100% ASIC resistant  

What about an ASIC with 1000 dumbass ARM cores that only run a trimmed down linux plus wallet?

and every core with its own ip address?
Are you hinting at the "thousands of nodes with fake blockchain attack"?
if so: still resistant.

The beauty of PoS is: It does not matter how many nodes you have with fake blockchain, if my node sees at least one other peer with a blockchain with higher cumulative difficulty, it's all good.

[VectorChief]

After seeing the price crash I'm ready to turn into a believer in this and what benefit it would bring. What I mean is about giving everybody a chance... rather than miners we could have something like a cpu driven concept, where we can actually let anybody to leave their computers on and contribute towards the hash rate.

So indirectly you are rewarding common people, main thing is to earn interest by holding on to the coin. I'm sure that could mean something.

PoW mining is the only way to keep the money system running without a permanent overseeing authority, as miners get into their positions by being better than others, rather than by decree like in fiat or PoS.

But you are always given a choice.
Sometimes, you need to choose what is easy, to learn how to choose what is right.

[ArticMine]

POS has one fundamental flaw. Stake does not equal exposure as pirateat40 proved back in 2011 / 2012 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50822.0. Show me a POS system that can deal with pirate.

Edit: Without the help of the US Government.

[achimsmile]

POS has one fundamental flaw. Stake does not equal exposure as pirateat40 proved back in 2011 / 2012 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50822.0. Show me a POS system that can deal with pirate.

Edit: Without the help of the US Government.

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean.

[ArticMine]

POS has one fundamental flaw. Stake does not equal exposure as pirateat40 proved back in 2011 / 2012 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50822.0. Show me a POS system that can deal with pirate.

Edit: Without the help of the US Government.

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean.

Could you describe attack scenario in details? After reproducing it in simulation we would like to pay you pretty good bounty

P.S. Good description on practical impossibility of N@S by JordanLee http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=2976.msg27303#msg27303

I will elaborate on the idea against nxt.
But that link you sent regarding PPC is not about practical impossibility of N@S. It's only about practical impossiblity of the particular attack that the writer describes. This was proven by my attack on APEX. Also, it has some flaws:

"They must wait 90 days to get another optimal chance to attack after a failed attempt"

is wrong, if you mine your chain in private and publish it only when it has accumulated more work than the main chain then you can attempt this after every block.

"If you buy 1% of Peercoins and put them all in the same output (similar to an address), you might have about a 3% chance of finding the next block."

is also wrong: 1% gives you about 20% chance of a block. 5% guarantees success.

So it I understand this correctly an attacker could borrow rather than buy say 10% of the target POS coin. This could be done for example using a pirateat40 type scheme. Sell half of the borrowed POS coins short, and use the remaining 5% of the borrowed coins to launch the attack. This would cause the price of the coin to collapse creating massive profits for our short seller / attacker. There is some real Bitcoin history here that is a must for anyone either attacking or defending a POS coin. Here is a good place to start. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50822.0. pirateat40 failed with Bitcoin but Bitcoin is POW! I can just imagine what would have happened to Bitcoin if pirateat40 could have used the borrowed XBT to launch an attack on the Bitcoin blockchain. This would indeed have been the case if Bitcoin had been POS. 

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=897488.msg10178740#msg10178740

[achimsmile]

PoW mining is the only way to keep the money system running without a permanent overseeing authority, as miners get into their positions by being better than others, rather than by decree like in fiat or PoS.

Either you mean that PoS systems don't run (which I doubt),
or you mean that PoS systems are controlled by a permanent overseeing authority.
So, who is this authority?

[ArticMine]

I would say that POS requires a centralized authority to prevent collapse.