Monero Economy Workgroup - The MEW Thread

[aminorex]

I think we should get our own IRC channel and maybe a Ventrilo/voice server.

https://jitsi.org/

[Monero Economy Workgroup]

I think we should get our own IRC channel and maybe a Ventrilo/voice server.

https://jitsi.org/

IRC: #monero-mew

[keystroke]

I think we should get our own IRC channel and maybe a Ventrilo/voice server.

https://jitsi.org/

For some reason this post just reminded me I have access to aminorex.com! I will add a link to your most recent posts there. (Let me know if you want the text changed or don't want the link for some reason... just doing this for fun )

[lordfoo]

Sent 10

Payment ID e41b63d872ae70b616f011119c2b8661429794fcce5f9b5c8ea41e9bde8f8fe0

[NewLiberty]

Shouldnt the devs decide the priorities? I mean they are the once who must donate their time to implement features.
The core team retains complete control with how to develop the coin, Monero (XMR). The role of MEW is to give them valuable information on the community's wishes, but we cannot force even our own members to do anything, much less the devs who - as a collective - are not even members. In a similar way we may issue suggestions to whomever, but they are not bound to follow the suggestions, and we will employ great care to not meddle in others' affairs, and also expect nobody to tell us how we should make use of our XMR privacy coin.

The MEW in its role as the business-facing aspect of Monero may provide advice and input to development as to what our analysis shows us would be helpful for the advancement of our common interests.

Let us take some ideas from our body here as to what features and functions would help take us forward so that we can be most useful to our developers.  Please feel welcome to add your own development priority ideas for consideration and discussion.  When we have the 10% voting quorum seeking a vote, according to our charter, we can then bring them to a vote on ranking, and them make a suggestion known to the development team.

I propose that these suggestions follow the format here of [preferred rank] [feature] [benefit]
By way of example, here are four: WIF, OTK, AUTH, GRACE in order of the rank I prefer:

1. WIF (wallet import format) for private keys and seed defined and implemented (import/export RPC and CLI methods)
2. OTK Address and transaction signing (one time key). - This feature allows proof of ownership of an address, or a transaction.  This should include format definition and the methods implemented.
3. AUTH Develop and implement HTTP/HTTPS/RPC simple authentication between components. - This allows merchants to run the daemon on a separate server and communicate securely.  (not every waiter in the restaurant has to have a full block chain on their bill pay device)
4. GRACE Upgrade error handling in the daemon to either use a "graceful shutdown" - Better stability of bitmonerod by determining if it is necessary to shut down (absolute worst case), or retry indefinitely. the daemon should only die under the most dire of circumstances, and provide alarmable output for manual intervention and remediation.

My ranking is based on my personal assessment of what would be beneficial to more widespread adoption, and to the development of an economic ecosystem.  These are incremental, small improvements and not giant milestones (like GUI wallet or DB).  You may have other ideas?  Or comments on these?

[infofront]

Sent 10
ID: EA1260887B98447A7B60D010DCD328909CBFFBE6D86EEC4FFF09168A9FCAA19A

[McHaggis]

Sadly my knowledge of the benefits of the code in question is lacking, I would need to see the time each piece would take to implement and the overall benefit to the coin, I suspect you have already taken that into consideration when you ranked them. Could I suggest a bounty system for the winner of the vote with the dev able to complete the code in question eligible for some XMR, or would offering individual prizes lead to duplication of work?

I'm interested in the projects that the less technical skilled members of MEW could take on, should people be encouraged to post ideas in this thread for a group vote?

[NewLiberty]

Sadly my knowledge of the benefits of the code in question is lacking, I would need to see the time each piece would take to implement and the overall benefit to the coin, I suspect you have already taken that into consideration when you ranked them. Could I suggest a bounty system for the winner of the vote with the dev able to complete the code in question eligible for some XMR, or would offering individual prizes lead to duplication of work?

I'm interested in the projects that the less technical skilled members of MEW could take on, should people be encouraged to post ideas in this thread for a group vote?

Thanks for this.
There is really far more to do than there are people doing it, so your suggestion is on point.  There are a ton of business activities as well as the every-day grass-roots effort of getting people to even understand what this is and what it can do and how it can change the world in amazing ways...  For every technical activity, there are 10 or 20 non-technical, and plenty of room for each of us to pitch in and make it happen.  I don't want to go into payment mechanisms to development and incentive structures (mostly because its not a big concern for me), but that may be another thing for you to lobby to get the 10% quorum in order to bring up to a vote.  I'd heard using bounties was not well received in this project, but really its not my bailiwick.

These 4 are things that I think will 1) bring us closer to the GUI wallet full functionality, but also 2) open up business opportunity in the near term even before the wallet is ready.  If you think "no vote before effort assessment" and we can't get 10% that want to vote on this proposal, then we can probably get a 10% quorum to vote on asking to get effort assessments, and pass that with a simple majority.

Here is a bit more to think about on this proposal so far:

#1 is what is needed to get paper wallets, coin-wallets, all that sort of thing.  There are lead times for making items that can be quite long in some cases.  Having this will start the clock rolling on that.  So I put it first.
#2 is something business and accounting will require.  To me, the killer app for Monero is not the "i fear my government" folks.  No, it is the 100% legal high finance and multinational business enterprises internal settlement accounts.
Here's why: If you are the C-level exec doing business internationally, and you are looking to expand in a foreign region, you are going to run up against entrenched interests.  In many/most areas, these will include the local banking systems.  If you want to keep your business advantage of first mover and avoid industrial espionage risks letting the in-country folks collude against you, you want a way to move your money within your company in private OUTSIDE THE BANKING SYSTEMS.  Sure you could use Bitcoin for this, but with its public ledger, if the opposition has half a clue, they can track it.  Sure you could take steps to obfuscate the transactions, but then you can't delegate it to your low level functionaries.
MONERO solves these problems in ways we do not expect Bitcoin to address anytime in the near future.

And here's the kicker, that market is 100x what Bitcoin is today.  Even if the only one doing it was Apple Computer, it would overwhelm the total market cap of Bitcoin today, and there are 10,000 companies in this situation.
It's #2 because there are a lot more pieces needed to do this, but this one is crucial.  It will have to be perfectly internally auditable, and perfectly obfuscated externally.

#3 is the Small and Medium Enterprise function.  Merchants will need this.

#4 is for basic reliability.  We have to have usage, but when they have it, it needs to not break.  I think if we asked our developers to do them in this order, we would be well suited to engage marketing solutions more swiftly.

These are designed around business needs, geared to promote success of the technology, and to take us to the next level. 

If we get to 50%, we can send it as a request for development priority to dev team.  Short of that, we can talk about this or other proposals, but I am also looking for some quick actionable things that we as a functioning body can put forward to get things moving.

[smooth]

(Speaking as an MEW member.)

Agree with NewLiberty's post. I'm not sure about this whole multinational use case (not saying it isn't valid, just that it all seems a bit speculative) but his analysis on the other items is spot on.

Note that #1 in particular is more about defining an "industry standard" and much less about coding. The MEW or a working group appointed by MEW can handle this item completely as long as the developers have some input on the final proposal to be adopted to ensure no feasibility problems. Also somewhat true of #3.

[NewLiberty]

(Speaking as an MEW member.)

Agree with NewLiberty's post. I'm not sure about this whole multinational use case (not saying it isn't valid, just that it all seems a bit speculative) but his analysis on the other items is spot on.

Note that #1 in particular is more about defining an "industry standard" and much less about coding. The MEW or a working group appointed by MEW can handle this item completely as long as the developers have some input on the final proposal to be adopted to ensure no feasibility problems. Also somewhat true of #3.

It is less speculative than you might think.  I was asked by a service provider for multinationals to investigate the potential for solving that use case.  Monero is the current front runner.  It is a significant factor as to why I am involved in Monero at all.  The need is real.  The current workaround is buying an in-country bank, which is expensive and comes with its own set of problems.

[smooth]

(Speaking as an MEW member.)

Agree with NewLiberty's post. I'm not sure about this whole multinational use case (not saying it isn't valid, just that it all seems a bit speculative) but his analysis on the other items is spot on.

Note that #1 in particular is more about defining an "industry standard" and much less about coding. The MEW or a working group appointed by MEW can handle this item completely as long as the developers have some input on the final proposal to be adopted to ensure no feasibility problems. Also somewhat true of #3.

It is less speculative than you might think.  I was asked by a service provider for multinationals to investigate the potential for solving that use case.  Monero is the current front runner.  It is a significant factor as to why I am involved in Monero at all.  The need is real.  The current workaround is buying an in-country bank, which is expensive and comes with its own set of problems.

Intrest may not be speculative at all. Whether it catches on and remains the front runner is highly speculative IMO. That shouldn't be meant as discouragement or even skepticism, it isn't meant that way. Personally I hope we do find even one credible and scalable use beyond speculation better than Bitcoin has.

[NewLiberty]

(Speaking as an MEW member.)

Agree with NewLiberty's post. I'm not sure about this whole multinational use case (not saying it isn't valid, just that it all seems a bit speculative) but his analysis on the other items is spot on.

Note that #1 in particular is more about defining an "industry standard" and much less about coding. The MEW or a working group appointed by MEW can handle this item completely as long as the developers have some input on the final proposal to be adopted to ensure no feasibility problems. Also somewhat true of #3.

It is less speculative than you might think.  I was asked by a service provider for multinationals to investigate the potential for solving that use case.  Monero is the current front runner.  It is a significant factor as to why I am involved in Monero at all.  The need is real.  The current workaround is buying an in-country bank, which is expensive and comes with its own set of problems.

Intrest may not be speculative at all. Whether it catches on and remains the front runner is highly speculative IMO. That shouldn't be meant as discouragement or even skepticism, it isn't meant that way. Personally I hope we do find even one credible and scalable use beyond speculation better than Bitcoin has.

This would do it.  But XMR is way to immature yet.  It has to prove itself with smaller fishes first.  Bitcoin can't do it, XMR could, if it survives, and grows up.  There are a lot of steps between here and there.

Anyhow, I don't have enough input yet on my proposal to bring it to a vote, much less the 10% votepower needed for that anyway, so I'm hoping to keep that discussion going further.

What does the current total votepower stand at now?

[rpietila]

These 4 are things that I think will 1) bring us closer to the GUI wallet full functionality, but also 2) open up business opportunity in the near term even before the wallet is ready.  If you think "no vote before effort assessment" and we can't get 10% that want to vote on this proposal, then we can probably get a 10% quorum to vote on asking to get effort assessments, and pass that with a simple majority.

Here is a bit more to think about on this proposal so far:

#1 is what is needed to get paper wallets, coin-wallets, all that sort of thing.  There are lead times for making items that can be quite long in some cases.  Having this will start the clock rolling on that.  So I put it first.
#2 is something business and accounting will require.  To me, the killer app for Monero is not the "i fear my government" folks.  No, it is the 100% legal high finance and multinational business enterprises internal settlement accounts.
Here's why: If you are the C-level exec doing business internationally, and you are looking to expand in a foreign region, you are going to run up against entrenched interests.  In many/most areas, these will include the local banking systems.  If you want to keep your business advantage of first mover and avoid industrial espionage risks letting the in-country folks collude against you, you want a way to move your money within your company in private OUTSIDE THE BANKING SYSTEMS.  Sure you could use Bitcoin for this, but with its public ledger, if the opposition has half a clue, they can track it.  Sure you could take steps to obfuscate the transactions, but then you can't delegate it to your low level functionaries.
MONERO solves these problems in ways we do not expect Bitcoin to address anytime in the near future.

And here's the kicker, that market is 100x what Bitcoin is today.  Even if the only one doing it was Apple Computer, it would overwhelm the total market cap of Bitcoin today, and there are 10,000 companies in this situation.
It's #2 because there are a lot more pieces needed to do this, but this one is crucial.  It will have to be perfectly internally auditable, and perfectly obfuscated externally.

#3 is the Small and Medium Enterprise function.  Merchants will need this.

#4 is for basic reliability.  We have to have usage, but when they have it, it needs to not break.  I think if we asked our developers to do them in this order, we would be well suited to engage marketing solutions more swiftly.

These are designed around business needs, geared to promote success of the technology, and to take us to the next level. 

If we get to 50%, we can send it as a request for development priority to dev team.  Short of that, we can talk about this or other proposals, but I am also looking for some quick actionable things that we as a functioning body can put forward to get things moving.

I am in favor of sending a message concerning priorities. What we need to efficiently do it, however, is to open the own discussion channel first. (I heard there is a freenode, but am not a member yet.) Then we can do what the voting protocol requires, which is draft the initial proposal for discussion, and then the final proposal to be voted when the discussion ends. The voting is allowed to take 168 hours, but it can be ended when the absolute majority (50%+1 vote of all votes) is reached.

Then we should gather the financial information from the devteam, for making these things happen. This should accompany our initial donation of about 3,000 XMR.

Please others - we don't want to be guiding the devteam too often, if you have something important for them, it might be possible to write a one-page communiqué distilling pretty much all that the community members want of the devs. After having this information, the rest we'll have to do ourselves! And that's going to be fun!

[Quicken]

Sent 100 XMR from Polo.
Payment ID: 3e2b5d1c486dbfd8232f615b804f1ed77c4f5d6500d1eabf8754292c403308e1
Q

[infofront]

I am in favor of sending a message concerning priorities. What we need to efficiently do it, however, is to open the own discussion channel first. (I heard there is a freenode, but am not a member yet.) Then we can do what the voting protocol requires, which is draft the initial proposal for discussion, and then the final proposal to be voted when the discussion ends. The voting is allowed to take 168 hours, but it can be ended when the absolute majority (50%+1 vote of all votes) is reached.

#Mew is taken, but i see there's a #Monero-Mew channel that's invite only. Do we know who runs that channel?

Edit: A private forum would be an option as well. This would assist with voting and keep a semi-permanent record of discussion.

[papa_lazzarou]

I am in favor of sending a message concerning priorities. What we need to efficiently do it, however, is to open the own discussion channel first. (I heard there is a freenode, but am not a member yet.) Then we can do what the voting protocol requires, which is draft the initial proposal for discussion, and then the final proposal to be voted when the discussion ends. The voting is allowed to take 168 hours, but it can be ended when the absolute majority (50%+1 vote of all votes) is reached.

#Mew is taken, but i see there's a #Monero-Mew channel that's invite only. Do we know who runs that channel?

Edit: A private forum would be an option as well. This would assist with voting and keep a semi-permanent record of discussion.

That is the MEW channel if i'm not mistaken.

[dEBRUYNE]

I am in favor of sending a message concerning priorities. What we need to efficiently do it, however, is to open the own discussion channel first. (I heard there is a freenode, but am not a member yet.) Then we can do what the voting protocol requires, which is draft the initial proposal for discussion, and then the final proposal to be voted when the discussion ends. The voting is allowed to take 168 hours, but it can be ended when the absolute majority (50%+1 vote of all votes) is reached.

#Mew is taken, but i see there's a #Monero-Mew channel that's invite only. Do we know who runs that channel?

Edit: A private forum would be an option as well. This would assist with voting and keep a semi-permanent record of discussion.

You have to contact davidlatapie for that. Also you have to register otherwise the invite will only work once, doesn't matter if you have a bouncer but if you don't have one you can't get into the channel if you reconnect. I think IRC is better for discussion than a private channel.

[Monero Economy Workgroup]

#monero-mew is only for mew members who already paid. There are some delays in opening access, for mere logistic reasons. Instructions for getting access to this channel will be published soon. The account to contact is this one (Monero Economy Workgroup), not David Latapie (even though presently the same person handles the two accounts).

The core team will open a MEW section on its incoming forum.

[smoothie]

I did not realize the donation address was here. I asked for it through David in PM but never got a response. My bad.

[David Latapie]

I did not realize the donation address was here. I asked for it through David in PM but never got a response. My bad.

Sorry, that was not intentional, just too much PM on my main account, I suppose. Don't forget the payment ID and the amount. Also, send your IRC handle and make sure to register if first.