Class action against kncminer.com

[jomay]

Have you ordered a KnCMiner Titan or Neptune?
Are you fed up with them and are interested in legal action and possibly a class action?

I'm trying to judge whether a class action suit would be a possible. Can you please state what you had ordered and why you would sue them?

Do you know a good lawyer or are a resident in Sweden? It would be helpful to have a contact there.

For example, I ordered a KnCMiner Titan. I am a consumer and would like to get a refund, because their products are unsafe (fire hazard, no CE marking), they have made false representations (Q2/Q3 delivery, 800Watt), and because they act in direct conflict with their customers (Batch 1 vs Batch 2).

My other thread collects information on replies from authorities and lawyers. Please contribute if you can!

[AhTuck]

Alright,
Let me have the 1st reply to this post,

1. I've order 2 Units of Titan.
2. Yes i've fed up with their word twisting.
3.
A. At 1st order the Titan which giving specs of 250MH/s with 800W power consume. But now is 300MH/s with 1160W power consume. This is a failure. Although it might seems that hash rate are high but using your own calculator you are able to count it how many watts it consume per MH.

B. False description on delivering date. Q2/Q3 2014. For a person direct thinking will be in between. Now until today 14-Sep-2014 as its been end of Q3 yet its just a news of "Titan Update - Brace For Impact: Titan Ships". But they not even can answer anything about Titan are about besides outlook of is like Neptune.
B1 : Why false description on delivering date ? Because their KNC speakers - Kurt told us "Ask any Chip manufacturer how long time it needs to produce, wafer and so on." Which KNC clearly know that Q2 is a false statement. No matter is so call Business or Marketing strategy. False is false. Don't Deny!
B2 : Business to business and Business to Customer. At 1st when we complain at KNC forum we been told by Kurt we are Business to Business. At this September, Keith comes and told us we are just Customer. So what are we ? A bunch of fool by KNC ?

C. At 1st before order the Titan the description is mention "As per Jupiter design". Jupiter design is a full 1 box contain everything without needed to DIY again yourself. Plug in the PSU and LAN cable then you are good to start. But now so call Cubes, Modular design. Which contain a failure design of what Neptune are. Check it out at any pages of WWW. I believe there are tons of picture showing how Neptune burn! Yet KNC accuse users using incorrect power supply. But according to those Neptune users, burning down PSU contains Corsair 1200W Platinum, Seasonic 1250W Gold, Superflower 1200W Platinum. Check it out! So does KNC delivering safe product ? I doubt. You don't design a product that only can be use at Arctic Area. Or you supply the PSU we gladly to pay it under your warranty.
C1 : KNC silently amend their Warranty statement from 12 months become 3 month. The reason is "We had manufacture ASIC a long time with our Quality products we are not needed to supply such long period of warranty" & "A lot of users overclocked the chip until they burn"

D. Totally screw up for batch 1 customer. Why? We fund their data center as well R&D yet we get lousy product and more expensive than Batch 2 customer. Batch 1 = $9995 ; 300MH/s. Batch 2 = $6995 ; 400MH/s.
D1 : They claim batch 2 customer will only ship later 1 month after finish shipping to all batch 1 customer. But does Batch 1 customer had the opportunity of the 1 month gap earning back $3000 ? Answer is NO. NOT EVEN ROI.

E. When i place my order i don't see anything at web shop stated "This items are non-refundable". I only see it shows out after "Super Jupiter Fiesta" happen.

4. I'm sorry that i don't know any lawyer at Sweden.

P/S : Forgive my bad english. *Peace*

[jomay]

Alright,
Let me have the 1st reply to this post,

1. I've order 2 Units of Titan.
2. Yes i've fed up with their word twisting.
3.
A. At 1st order the Titan which giving specs of 250MH/s with 800W power consume. But now is 300MH/s with 1160W power consume. This is a failure. Although it might seems that hash rate are high but using your own calculator you are able to count it how many watts it consume per MH.

B. False description on delivering date. Q2/Q3 2014. For a person direct thinking will be in between. Now until today 14-Sep-2014 as its been end of Q3 yet its just a news of "Titan Update - Brace For Impact: Titan Ships". But they not even can answer anything about Titan are about besides outlook of is like Neptune.
B1 : Why false description on delivering date ? Because their KNC speakers - Kurt told us "Ask any Chip manufacturer how long time it needs to produce, wafer and so on." Which KNC clearly know that Q2 is a false statement. No matter is so call Business or Marketing strategy. False is false. Don't Deny!
B2 : Business to business and Business to Customer. At 1st when we complain at KNC forum we been told by Kurt we are Business to Business. At this September, Keith comes and told us we are just Customer. So what are we ? A bunch of fool by KNC ?

C. At 1st before order the Titan the description is mention "As per Jupiter design". Jupiter design is a full 1 box contain everything without needed to DIY again yourself. Plug in the PSU and LAN cable then you are good to start. But now so call Cubes, Modular design. Which contain a failure design of what Neptune are. Check it out at any pages of WWW. I believe there are tons of picture showing how Neptune burn! Yet KNC accuse users using incorrect power supply. But according to those Neptune users, burning down PSU contains Corsair 1200W Platinum, Seasonic 1250W Gold, Superflower 1200W Platinum. Check it out! So does KNC delivering safe product ? I doubt. You don't design a product that only can be use at Arctic Area. Or you supply the PSU we gladly to pay it under your warranty.
C1 : KNC silently amend their Warranty statement from 12 months become 3 month. The reason is "We had manufacture ASIC a long time with our Quality products we are not needed to supply such long period of warranty" & "A lot of users overclocked the chip until they burn"

D. Totally screw up for batch 1 customer. Why? We fund their data center as well R&D yet we get lousy product and more expensive than Batch 2 customer. Batch 1 = $9995 ; 300MH/s. Batch 2 = $6995 ; 400MH/s.
D1 : They claim batch 2 customer will only ship later 1 month after finish shipping to all batch 1 customer. But does Batch 1 customer had the opportunity of the 1 month gap earning back $3000 ? Answer is NO. NOT EVEN ROI.

E. When i place my order i don't see anything at web shop stated "This items are non-refundable". I only see it shows out after "Super Jupiter Fiesta" happen.

4. I'm sorry that i don't know any lawyer at Sweden.

P/S : Forgive my bad english. *Peace*

Thanks for your reply. I'd wanted to get a quick idea if people are interested in a class action lawsuit and are ready to contribute something if we went down that line.

I think your reply would have fit into the other thread, and I hope my write-up there captured most points you have mentioned above:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=781435

Regarding B2, "customer" does not imply "consumer". You really want to be classified as a "consumer".

Regarding C1, yes they have changed the T&C. KnCMiner will be bound to the T&C presented at that time. I don't think you can challenge the T&C as they used to be different. The best shot for us is to be considered a consumer, as that voids many points in their T&C's.

D, D1: I don't think it is helpful at all to argue about "ROI" or whatever. The T&C do not mention ROI. A consumer does not primarily seek ROI. If at all you can argue about a conflict of interest between you and KnC, and unethical business practices.

I think your points A and E are covered in my write up.

[metagnosis]

absolutely interested.  Their whole business platform has been built on lies and disinformation. 
regarding the titan:

1.  they knew Q2 was never a reality, yet listed that as a possible date in a attempt to mislead customers.  While other companies like GAW offered their clients cloud hashing as they wait for their orders, KnC began selling hashing power to raise more money besides the interest free loans they already took from their customers
2.  power requirements are 50% higher than they indicated they would be, making it a fire hazard in many areas. 
3.  Charging Batch 1 customers $3k more and giving them 100 mh less is absurd and unacceptable.  Delivery time does not compensate for this difference.

This is just the starting point of their lies. 

[jomay]

If you need help with the Swedish law system, shoot me a PM.

//OldBones, jurist since 1999.

Definitely interested - sent a PM.

[jomay]

absolutely interested.  Their whole business platform has been built on lies and disinformation. 
regarding the titan:

1.  they knew Q2 was never a reality, yet listed that as a possible date in a attempt to mislead customers.  While other companies like GAW offered their clients cloud hashing as they wait for their orders, KnC began selling hashing power to raise more money besides the interest free loans they already took from their customers
2.  power requirements are 50% higher than they indicated they would be, making it a fire hazard in many areas. 
3.  Charging Batch 1 customers $3k more and giving them 100 mh less is absurd and unacceptable.  Delivery time does not compensate for this difference.

This is just the starting point of their lies. 

I agree to 1. and 2.
I don't think 3. is is a good reason. It feels unethical, but it may be ok.

[aspeer]

interested, im tired of KnC treating me like crap over the phone. let me know what you need

[r3animation]

Is a class action lawsuit even possible with regards to where the company is based?

[mishax1]

This:

Hello KNC,
I would like to cancel my order of 1 TITAN miner which I ordered on March 28th
Order Number 2118X
Thank you

Hi Michael,
Due to the relatively young nature of the scrypt mining market we are not offering refunds on our scrypt mining products.
Best regards
Med vänlig hälsning
Natalie Forslund
Kncminer

Hi Natalie,
There was no statement upon the order that the Titan batch 1 was
non-refundable therefore you are obligated to cancel the order.
Thank you.

Hi Michael,
Unfortunately we can not accept your refund request. We are not offering refunds on our scrypt mining products.
Here is a link to our terms and conditions: https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc
Best regards  
Med vänlig hälsning
Natalie Forslund

Natalie,
Please refer me to the relevant statement about order cancelation and
refund, because I can't find anything related to that in "TandC".
Thanks

Hi Michael,
We are a business to business company.
We do not have a refund policy and we are not obligated to cancel and refund your order.
Best regards  
Med vänlig hälsning
Natalie Forslund

[jomay]

Is a class action lawsuit even possible with regards to where the company is based?

Very much so. But I doubt a class action is five customers suing the company.
The EU is actually committed to offer class action type redress for consumers and if I remember correctly somewhere in the documents below it lists Sweden as a country that already has a class action system in place.
http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/solving_consumer_disputes/judicial_redress/index_en.htm

Let me know if you find anything interesting in there.

[mishax1]

Someone reports getting 1540W from the wall with the Titan - https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22290.msg0#new

[mauiflipper]

Yes, I do believe  a class action lawsuit is possible.  I have incurred a loss due to KNC's "Deceptive Acts and Practices".  More specifically these practices:

1.) Advertised Batch 1 Neptunes to be shipped "Q1/Q2" of 2014.
2.) Stated on ordering page of Neptunes, Batch 1 that a full refund could be obtained at any time before the product is shipped.

On the first item:
KNC specifically knew that there product would not ship in Quarter 1, but purposefully led people to believe that it would ship sometime near the end of  Q1 or beginning of Q2. They did this in hopes of tricking more people into placing Neptune orders. They then shipped in Q3.

On the second items:
I asked for a refund in Q3, before my order shipped and my cancellation was refused.  KNC stated to me that my Neptune orders could not be cancelled because the product already started shipping to **OTHER** customers.  This is not the wording that was used on the ordering page.  They then referred me to the fine print in the cancellation policy.  So, they stated one thing on their order page, where it was obvious, but then stated the opposite in their fine print. 

These are Deceptive Acts and Practices by a company who's primary method of generating funds is defrauding people on an international level. So, yes I do believe that a class action lawsuit is in order and I am interested in assisting with correcting the injustices inflicted by KNC.

[chopstick]

Almost every mining company succumbs to greed and deceit it seems.

[bgibso01]

Yes, I do believe  a class action lawsuit is possible.  I have incurred a loss due to KNC's "Deceptive Acts and Practices".  More specifically these practices:

1.) Advertised Batch 1 Neptunes to be shipped "Q1/Q2" of 2014.
2.) Stated on ordering page of Neptunes, Batch 1 that a full refund could be obtained at any time before the product is shipped.

On the first item:
KNC specifically knew that there product would not ship in Quarter 1, but purposefully led people to believe that it would ship sometime near the end of  Q1 or beginning of Q2. They did this in hopes of tricking more people into placing Neptune orders. They then shipped in Q3.

On the second items:
I asked for a refund in Q3, before my order shipped and my cancellation was refused.  KNC stated to me that my Neptune orders could not be cancelled because the product already started shipping to **OTHER** customers.  This is not the wording that was used on the ordering page.  They then referred me to the fine print in the cancellation policy.  So, they stated one thing on their order page, where it was obvious, but then stated the opposite in their fine print. 

These are Deceptive Acts and Practices by a company who's primary method of generating funds is defrauding people on an international level. So, yes I do believe that a class action lawsuit is in order and I am interested in assisting with correcting the injustices inflicted by KNC.

I think if you pull up web history, the 'fine print in the cancellation policy' wasn't there at least when the announcement was first made.  I was able to submit copies of it to ARN.se and get my refund on my Neptune.  I requested the refund on April 8th and it wasn't until it was time for a hearing with ARN and KnC's attorney that the wire transfer was issued (around August 18th).

[BitcoinPappi]

Yes, I do believe  a class action lawsuit is possible.  I have incurred a loss due to KNC's "Deceptive Acts and Practices".  More specifically these practices:

1.) Advertised Batch 1 Neptunes to be shipped "Q1/Q2" of 2014.
2.) Stated on ordering page of Neptunes, Batch 1 that a full refund could be obtained at any time before the product is shipped.

On the first item:
KNC specifically knew that there product would not ship in Quarter 1, but purposefully led people to believe that it would ship sometime near the end of  Q1 or beginning of Q2. They did this in hopes of tricking more people into placing Neptune orders. They then shipped in Q3.

On the second items:
I asked for a refund in Q3, before my order shipped and my cancellation was refused.  KNC stated to me that my Neptune orders could not be cancelled because the product already started shipping to **OTHER** customers.  This is not the wording that was used on the ordering page.  They then referred me to the fine print in the cancellation policy.  So, they stated one thing on their order page, where it was obvious, but then stated the opposite in their fine print. 

These are Deceptive Acts and Practices by a company who's primary method of generating funds is defrauding people on an international level. So, yes I do believe that a class action lawsuit is in order and I am interested in assisting with correcting the injustices inflicted by KNC.

I think if you pull up web history, the 'fine print in the cancellation policy' wasn't there at least when the announcement was first made.  I was able to submit copies of it to ARN.se and get my refund on my Neptune.  I requested the refund on April 8th and it wasn't until it was time for a hearing with ARN and KnC's attorney that the wire transfer was issued (around August 18th).

Did you have to hire a lawyer to help with the process ? Are you an EU resident ?

[mauiflipper]

I'm a US national.  I have not yet contacted a lawyer.

[sikke]

Is a class action lawsuit even possible with regards to where the company is based?

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupptalan

Group proceedings were introduced in Sweden on 1 January 2003 when the Act (2002: 599) class action took effect.

[bgibso01]

Did you have to hire a lawyer to help with the process ? Are you an EU resident ?

I'm a USA resident and did not hire an attorney.  I did discuss it with one in Sweden, but ARN seemed to be getting their attention.

[BitcoinPappi]

Did you have to hire a lawyer to help with the process ? Are you an EU resident ?

I'm a USA resident and did not hire an attorney.  I did discuss it with one in Sweden, but ARN seemed to be getting their attention.

Can you list the steps to upload the documents that you took with ARN. I visited the website but was not able to find exactly where to submit my information. It would be great if you could share a template letter, list of documents and so on that you used.

[kingscrown]

im in for this if you guys make it