bitcoincard.org the killer app we have been waiting for?

[adamstgBit]

wow this thing looks so cool, and it works with bitcoins? JOY! 

http://www.bitcoincard.org

what do you guys think, is this the killer app that will bring about the bitcoin revolution?

[1714950669]

1714950669

[1714950669]

1714950669

[N12]

If this shit works as advertised and they manage to get critical mass ANYWHERE, yes, it is a killer app.

I want to see a prototype in action.

[Piper67]

If this shit works as advertised and they manage to get critical mass ANYWHERE, yes, it is a killer app.

I want to see a prototype in action.

This is key. If their business model allows them to offer the actual cards for very little money (or perhaps even for free), in exchange for rapid acceptance and attainment of critical mass, it could be a game changer.

Otherwise, it will be a case of "can you hear me now?" 

[Nachtwind]

If that thing is remotely possible it could be interestering for bitcoin... or implementing its successor...

Questions:
If using BTC - how would it store the blockchain etc?
Can that type of tech fit into the dimensions? 1.3mm isnt really much.. and i think a lot of space is "wasted" with PV and battery.. not to speak of the screen+buttons..
Estimated price?

[notme]

If that thing is remotely possible it could be interestering for bitcoin... or implementing its successor...

Questions:
If using BTC - how would it store the blockchain etc?
Can that type of tech fit into the dimensions? 1.3mm isnt really much.. and i think a lot of space is "wasted" with PV and battery.. not to speak of the screen+buttons..
Estimated price?

It doesn't need to store the blockchain... it just needs to store the private keys  to sign transactions and have a couple trusted sources to check balances with.

The thickness is impressive, but there are very very thin displays and PVs available these days.

Price will be key since these things are worthless unless a shitload of people have them.

[FreeMoney]

Video hasn't worked for me for a while. Others still get it going?

[N12]

Video hasn't worked for me for a while. Others still get it going?

Just watch it directly: http://vimeo.com/40711689

[grue]

I'm wondering how this system can prevent spam. What's preventing someone from DDoSing the network with messages?

[notme]

I'm wondering how this system can prevent spam. What's preventing someone from DDoSing the network with messages?

Maybe you have to pay a satoshi with each message for it to be passed .

[adamstgBit]

I'm wondering how this system can prevent spam. What's preventing someone from DDoSing the network with messages?

the possibility of an ass kicking? 

He's jamming the com. GET HIM!

lmao

[FreeMoney]

Video hasn't worked for me for a while. Others still get it going?

Just watch it directly: http://vimeo.com/40711689

Thanks but I still get nothing. Maybe I need to restart browser. Nope, didn't work in another browser.

[teflone]

Oh my fucking god... :O


Ummmmm where do I buy ?

This is amazing on soooo many levels

[gamer4156]

So they find it feasible to pack a solar panel, processor/screen/touchscreen/transmitters/battery all into something not much bigger than a credit card? Right... If this were possible it would be fucking awesome, look for this item in 2025!

[Grinder]

I was a bit surprised that it wasn't powered by cold fusion.

[waspoza]

[teflone]

Just to show you the tech behind this is already available..

This is not future tech, its here and now..

http://www.walletex.com/?module=products&item_id=3&sub_id=734

[gamer4156]

Just to show you the tech behind this is already available..

This is not future tech, its here and now..

http://www.walletex.com/?module=products&item_id=3&sub_id=734

This lacks the touchscreen,the battery that would be necessary and the solar panels(IE all the big things)

[MoonShadow]

I saw this the other day.  It looks to me like someone has been reading my other threads...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=75729

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8540.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53567.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1256.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1256.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2386.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2039.0

And managed to find some hardware to do it with.  I've been trying to find the manufacturer of the card device in order to get more details on the thing, but so far it seems to be vaporgear.

[teflone]

Just to show you the tech behind this is already available..

This is not future tech, its here and now..

http://www.walletex.com/?module=products&item_id=3&sub_id=734

This lacks the touchscreen,the battery that would be necessary and the solar panels(IE all the big things)

Note to self, gamer has no imagination...

Do you still think of batteries as a round cylinder ?   

I think you dont know enough about the actual tech you think is so sci-fi 

The solar panel, can be thinner than a piece of paper..

The screen same thing..

The touch membrane on a screen..  thinner than paper..

The "battery" would be a capacitor, these come in ALL shapes, thickness's and sizes..

[nedbert9]

Duuuuude.  Where's my card?

[Grinder]

Note to self, gamer has no imagination...

It's the building part that's hard, not the imagining.

[teflone]

Note to self, gamer has no imagination...

It's the building part that's hard, not the imagining.

No..

Building anything only takes money..  (And time.. for the laypersons)

[MoonShadow]

http://ht.ly/6yUTG

Here's the site of a manufacturer of a similar device, but not the same device.

[teflone]

In Bitcoin Discussion

Yankee said its real, and he has held it in his hands...

I take Yankee on his word...

[Grinder]

No..

Building anything only takes money..

If you had included "and time" it might have been closer to the truth, but still completely meaningless.

[teflone]

No..

Building anything only takes money..

If you had included "and time" it might have been closer to the truth, but still completely meaningless.

Yes, I will hold you hand for you, its ok, I will spell out all the obvious things I missed, just so you can understand..

And time..  because, you know, nothing takes time right ? 

[MoonShadow]

The solar panel, can be thinner than a piece of paper..

The screen same thing..

The touch membrane on a screen..  thinner than paper..

The "battery" would be a capacitor, these come in ALL shapes, thickness's and sizes..

Actually, there is a new type of capacitive touch screen that is actually a solar panel itself, so that you can let your phone charge by simply placing it on the table face up and letting the screen time out.

[notme]

The solar panel, can be thinner than a piece of paper..

The screen same thing..

The touch membrane on a screen..  thinner than paper..

The "battery" would be a capacitor, these come in ALL shapes, thickness's and sizes..

Actually, there is a new type of capacitive touch screen that is actually a solar panel itself, so that you can let your phone charge by simply placing it on the table face up and letting the screen time out.

Awesome.

[teflone]

The solar panel, can be thinner than a piece of paper..

The screen same thing..

The touch membrane on a screen..  thinner than paper..

The "battery" would be a capacitor, these come in ALL shapes, thickness's and sizes..

Actually, there is a new type of capacitive touch screen that is actually a solar panel itself, so that you can let your phone charge by simply placing it on the table face up and letting the screen time out.

Yes!  finally someone on top of the PV and screen tech!

[Grinder]

And time..  because, you know, nothing takes time right ? 

So, where's my flying car?

[MoonShadow]

And time..  because, you know, nothing takes time right ? 

So, where's my flying car?

It's more of a motorbike than a car....

http://www.hover-bike.com/

[teflone]

And time..  because, you know, nothing takes time right ?  

So, where's my flying car?

Moller skycar, or heli bike..

http://www.carbonfibergear.com/flying-cars-the-future-is-now/

Next question ?

[Grinder]

Moller skycar..

Next question ?

If that's a flying car then what you'll get when you ask for that card is a mobile phone.

[teflone]

Moller skycar..

Next question ?

If that's a flying car then what you'll get when you ask for that card is a mobile phone.

Gotcha!  your a non believer..  give it up bud..  

You argument is stupid.

And my time is too valuable to waste on your pathetic mission to prove your right.

I guess all your cars you own look like this still, right ?

[Grinder]

Gotcha!  your a non believer..  give it up bud..  

So I have to be a true believer for your "arguments" to work? That explains a whole lot.

[gamer4156]

In Bitcoin Discussion

Yankee said its real, and he has held it in his hands...

I take Yankee on his word...

Why dont they put up a real picture to dispel the non believers like me?

[teflone]

Gotcha!  your a non believer..  give it up bud..  

So I have to be a true believer for your "arguments" to work? That explains a whole lot.

No, you just have to have an open mind.. and a slight knowledge of current tech.

Im sorry you dont..  

btw, did you hear they landed on the moon ?

[Grinder]

No, you just have to have an open mind.. and a slight knowledge of current tech.
Im sorry you dont..  

I have both, I'm sorry you only have the first.

[adamstgBit]

In Bitcoin Discussion

Yankee said its real, and he has held it in his hands...

I take Yankee on his word...

Why dont they put up a real picture to dispel the non believers like me?

Gamer has a point, although Yankee is highly trust worthy, I have no idea why he would ruin his reputation by lying to us.

we should have a lot more info soon, Yankee is meting with them at the end of the month.

I'm only worried about the price, cuz  for their idea to work a lot of people need to use it

[teflone]

No, you just have to have an open mind.. and a slight knowledge of current tech.
Im sorry you dont..  

I have both, I'm sorry you only have the first.

lmao...    

Ahhhhh the dull thud of a Grinder comment, if you only knew what my job is. 

[Spekulatius]

wow this thing looks so cool, and it works with bitcoins? JOY! 

http://www.bitcoincard.org

what do you guys think, is this the killer app that will bring about the bitcoin revolution?

Yeah,.. I dont really like it. I dont like to data mining possible which is mentioned in the video, I dont understand how it can be superior to all the functionalities a smart phone offers, only a couple of mms thicker and I think its no use if you are outside of city boundaries, it doesnt even work between towns or suburbs, only in the city center.

If it would cost only 50$ or less, it could be an alternative to a smart phone, although I doubt it. It doesnt come with voice transmission and longlevity of batteries is doubtful, especially during cloudy days.

I short, nice try but I dont think so.

[Matthew N. Wright]

Guys, you're asking all the wrong questions.

Who cares if Charlie said it's real. Who cares if it is real.

The questions you should be asking are:

• If it's real, why isn't anyone talking about the functionality?
• Why isn't Charlie beaming about the bitcoin sending functionality?
• Why isn't anyone bothering to talk about how ridiculous the ISM band is?
• Why does anyone believe that it will have enough energy to not need a charge?
• Why does anyone believe that it would have enough energy to use that radioband constantly and not need a charge?
• At what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?
• Does anyone actually believe that just because it doesn't allow software and uses an ad-hoc network, that requiring an additional custom node to connect it to the internet makes any sense at all?
• At what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?
• At what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?
• And most importantly, at what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?

3 people with this and no one with the internet != Bitcoin.


As the inventor of a similar yet less overly-hyped device, I say it doesn't have a chance in a real world but it's an AWESOME technology just the same and I applaud the show, but I don't see it becoming anything more than that honestly.

[MoonShadow]

Guys, you're asking all the wrong questions.

Who cares if Charlie said it's real. Who cares if it is real.

The questions you should be asking are:

• If it's real, why isn't anyone talking about the functionality?
• Why isn't Charlie beaming about the bitcoin sending functionality?
• Why isn't anyone bothering to talk about how ridiculous the ISM band is?
• Why does anyone believe that it will have enough energy to not need a charge?
• Why does anyone believe that it would have enough energy to use that radioband constantly and not need a charge?
• At what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?
• Does anyone actually believe that just because it doesn't allow software and uses an ad-hoc network, that requiring an additional custom node to connect it to the internet makes any sense at all?
• At what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?
• At what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?
• And most importantly, at what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?

3 people with this and no one with the internet != Bitcoin.


As the inventor of a similar yet less overly-hyped device, I say it doesn't have a chance in a real world but it's an AWESOME technology just the same.

It doesn't hold a blockchain, so it doesn't actually have to update in that manner.  Yes, it would require some kind of supporting infrastructure, such as a specialized internet router that acts as a Stratum server.

[teflone]

Guys, you're asking all the wrong questions.

Who cares if Charlie said it's real. Who cares if it is real.

The questions you should be asking are:

• If it's real, why isn't anyone talking about the functionality?
• Why isn't Charlie beaming about the bitcoin sending functionality?
• Why isn't anyone bothering to talk about how ridiculous the ISM band is?
• Why does anyone believe that it will have enough energy to not need a charge?
• Why does anyone believe that it would have enough energy to use that radioband constantly and not need a charge?
• At what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?
• Does anyone actually believe that just because it doesn't allow software and uses an ad-hoc network, that requiring an additional custom node to connect it to the internet makes any sense at all?
• At what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?
• At what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?
• And most importantly, at what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?

3 people with this and no one with the internet != Bitcoin.


As the inventor of a similar yet less overly-hyped device, I say it doesn't have a chance in a real world but it's an AWESOME technology just the same and I applaud the show, but I don't see it becoming anything more than that honestly.

Which ISM band has a lot to do with how much juice it needs..  I would assume 2.4, but the lower the better..

[MoonShadow]

Guys, you're asking all the wrong questions.

Who cares if Charlie said it's real. Who cares if it is real.

The questions you should be asking are:

• If it's real, why isn't anyone talking about the functionality?
• Why isn't Charlie beaming about the bitcoin sending functionality?
• Why isn't anyone bothering to talk about how ridiculous the ISM band is?
• Why does anyone believe that it will have enough energy to not need a charge?
• Why does anyone believe that it would have enough energy to use that radioband constantly and not need a charge?
• At what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?
• Does anyone actually believe that just because it doesn't allow software and uses an ad-hoc network, that requiring an additional custom node to connect it to the internet makes any sense at all?
• At what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?
• At what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?
• And most importantly, at what point does it connect to the blockchain and actually update?

3 people with this and no one with the internet != Bitcoin.


As the inventor of a similar yet less overly-hyped device, I say it doesn't have a chance in a real world but it's an AWESOME technology just the same and I applaud the show, but I don't see it becoming anything more than that honestly.

Which ISM band has a lot to do with how much juice it needs..  I would assume 2.4, but the lower the better..

If it's a dash7 device, it uses 433 mhz.

[teflone]

Guys, you're asking all the wrong questions.

Who cares if Charlie said it's real. Who cares if it is real.

The questions you should be asking are:

3 people with this and no one with the internet != Bitcoin.


As the inventor of a similar yet less overly-hyped device, I say it doesn't have a chance in a real world but it's an AWESOME technology just the same and I applaud the show, but I don't see it becoming anything more than that honestly.

Which ISM band has a lot to do with how much juice it needs..  I would assume 2.4, but the lower the better..

If it's a dash7 device, it uses 433 mhz.

Oh, thanks.. was curious, that could easily be feasible then, 433 travels well..  lower than I expected, but hoped for..

[darkice]

wow this thing looks so cool, and it works with bitcoins? JOY! 

http://www.bitcoincard.org

what do you guys think, is this the killer app that will bring about the bitcoin revolution?

Yeah,.. I dont really like it. I dont like to data mining possible which is mentioned in the video, I dont understand how it can be superior to all the functionalities a smart phone offers, only a couple of mms thicker and I think its no use if you are outside of city boundaries, it doesnt even work between towns or suburbs, only in the city center.

If it would cost only 50$ or less, it could be an alternative to a smart phone, although I doubt it. It doesnt come with voice transmission and longlevity of batteries is doubtful, especially during cloudy days.

I short, nice try but I dont think so.

data mining can be prevented by putting the device in an enclosure made of thinfoil or not carrying it with you while shopping may help

[Spekulatius]

wow this thing looks so cool, and it works with bitcoins? JOY! 

http://www.bitcoincard.org

what do you guys think, is this the killer app that will bring about the bitcoin revolution?

Yeah,.. I dont really like it. I dont like to data mining possible which is mentioned in the video, I dont understand how it can be superior to all the functionalities a smart phone offers, only a couple of mms thicker and I think its no use if you are outside of city boundaries, it doesnt even work between towns or suburbs, only in the city center.

If it would cost only 50$ or less, it could be an alternative to a smart phone, although I doubt it. It doesnt come with voice transmission and longlevity of batteries is doubtful, especially during cloudy days.

I short, nice try but I dont think so.

data mining can be prevented by putting the device in an enclosure made of thinfoil or not carrying it with you while shopping may help

Ah yeah, thats why I pay for stuff in Bitcoin with it. . . !? NO.

[cuz0882]

I don't see the point, there could never be enough to link them together. Even if everyone on earth had one. It would need to connect to something besides peers, like smart phones do. We already have those.. If they were all in range of each other, how could they communicate with the block chain? Even if it worked as promised. I would be impressed if one person in every 500 miles bought one. Let alone 300 meters.

[John (John K.)]

I'm interested. Where do I hand my coins over?

[adamstgBit]

I don't see the point, there could never be enough to link them together. Even if everyone on earth had one. It would need to connect to something besides peers, like smart phones do. We already have those.. If they were all in range of each other, how could they communicate with the block chain? Even if it worked as promised. I would be impressed if one person in every 500 miles bought one. Let alone 300 meters.

"trusted" gateway nodes allow it to connect to the blockchain

granted the idea is whimsical, but its has a COOL factor.

[MoonShadow]

I don't see the point, there could never be enough to link them together. Even if everyone on earth had one. It would need to connect to something besides peers, like smart phones do. We already have those.. If they were all in range of each other, how could they communicate with the block chain? Even if it worked as promised. I would be impressed if one person in every 500 miles bought one. Let alone 300 meters.

I'd buy one today.

And yes, they could work well, in theory.  And yes, they would need routers in addition to peers, but those would be provided by retailers.  The mesh mechanism is to extend the functional range of such a device, but is inmaterial for a bitcoin device.  A disconnected bitcoin wallet isn't disconnected when you're home, only while you're out using it.  So it can update it's blockchain (assuming it needs it, but it shouldn't) while you are at home or otherwise within wifi range of an open hotspot.  The devices need to be able to broadcast transactions, & hear other transactions, to protect the owner from a possible form of theft by deception.  Namely, if the device didn't broadcast transactions until it could connect to a wifi hotspot, a criminal could pretend to buy the car you were selling on Craigslist, pay you with bitcoin using both your wallet devices, and after you drive away the thug you paid to mug him would destroy his wallet device.  Thus giving the fraudster the chance to overwrite the transaction that he paid with on his own device and keep the funds.  If all bitcoin devices broadcast all transactions immediately, the fraudster in this scenario can't know if the transaction was heard by another wallet device, another person's cell phone, a router connected to the internet or nothing at all.  This lack of certainty removes the potential gain from such a criminal strategy.  It's not really speed of transaction propagation that is critical, but the potential of same.  If bitcoin is ever as popular as Paypal, we can expect that retailers that start accepting bitcoin are going to also invest in a receiver for broadcasted bitcoin transactions, since it's in their own interests to make certain that transactions make it to the Internet as quickly as possible to prevent double spends attacks against themselves.  Although it would be possible to exclude transactions that don't concern the retailer, the additional overhead involved in making such a discriminating router would most often exceed the marginal additional cost of simply forwarding every bitcoin transaction that it hears.  A store the size of WalMart could get away with only one such receiver per store.  A mall might need two or three for all the stores, depending upon it's size and layout.  A bunch of small stores down main street could get together to sponsor one for the whole block, although the costs of such a receiver if you already have Internet access at the store (who doesn't in America anymore?).

Theories aside, there wouldn't need to be a critical mass for such a device to be useful, and in places with retail density, the mesh traffic might actually be counterproductive.  It's when you're far from a retail outlet doing business that such distribution of the transactions are necessary.

[MoonShadow]

I don't see the point, there could never be enough to link them together. Even if everyone on earth had one. It would need to connect to something besides peers, like smart phones do. We already have those.. If they were all in range of each other, how could they communicate with the block chain? Even if it worked as promised. I would be impressed if one person in every 500 miles bought one. Let alone 300 meters.

"trusted" gateway nodes allow it to connect to the blockchain

granted the idea is whimsical, but its has a COOL factor.

They don't need to be trusted.  I can do exactly the same thing right now using my openwrt wifi router, simply by blocking non-bitcoin port numbers and letting bitcoin port numbers pass unhindered; or by capture and redirection of all client-side traffic to my local bitcoind.  The whole point of bitcoin's structure is that there don't need to be trusted gateways.  There is little to no malicious activities that any particular gateway node could do to any user.  Can't steal their coins.  Can't expect to double-spend against such a device, since it's as likely as not to be somewhere else when coins are sent to it anyway.  (it's a consumer wallet, not a point-of-sale device.)  Can't see how a sybil attack is likely against such a device, for similar reasons.  Having a full blockchain makes such things impossible, but even just having the block headers, merkle trees & copies of input transactions relevant to the addresses that the wallet has private keys for makes pretty much anything unlikely, or at least "costly" enough of a crime to not make the funds that could be found in a random wallet device worthwhile.

The only malicious activity that I can think of that might be possible, is to feed the wallet device false input transaction data, but even if the client accepts them as true, no one else would so the device simply wouldn't be able to spend those coins that it never really had; which might irritate the owner, but he still couldn't lose anything as a result.

[alatus]

Infrastructure looks to be the critical point. (Cost, security...)

Anyhow, interesting tech. Let's see!

[P4man]

I suspect the business model behind these is not to sell them to end users, but rather use them as loyalty cards, access cards etc with added functionality. Consumers would have to get them for free, or this is a non starter.

TBH, I think its a non starter anyway. As others pointed out, there are smartphones who can do all that + so much more so much better.  Though maybe for developing countries? Not sure how much demand there would be for the datamining in those countries tho, which is what I suppose will pay for the card.

[matthewh3]

If it can provide free "im" and definitely if it can provide free "sms" plus a btc wallet I can see lots of bitcoiners paying for one.

[P4man]

Even if every bitcoin user in the world bought one, chances of being able to connect to the adhoc network would still be.. ~zero.

[matthewh3]

Yeah but it would create a user base to fuel wider adoption of both the device plus btc too.

[MoonShadow]

Even if every bitcoin user in the world bought one, chances of being able to connect to the adhoc network would still be.. ~zero.

Thank you for your unsupported layman's opinion.  As for those of us who actually know a thing or two about radio telemetry & propagation, we've been providing actual facts on this kind of device for longer than most of you in this thread have even known what a bitcoin was.

EDIT: I've literally bounced a 2 watt signal off the F level of the ionosphere and was heard over 200 miles away from my position; and actual line-of-sight distance of at least 350 miles up and down.  Granted, that was with some high quality gear that wouldn't fit in my wallet to save my life; but for someone who's only experiences with low-power digital telemetry involves the wifi scanner app on his smartphone to tell me it-just can't-be-done is offensive.

[matthewh3]

I can also see the company being bought out by PayPal or Google dropping the btc wallet and using theirs.  With the new company providing them free or subsidised.

[P4man]

Yeah but it would create a user base to fuel wider adoption of both the device plus btc too.

Not really, because you wouldnt be able to use it 99% of the time. Which also means, almost no one would buy one. Classical chicken and egg problem.

The only approach that I see that makes some sense, is Wallmart and the like giving you one for free, and use it as datamining tool. I dont think its coincidence in the video they stress the cards ability to detect how long you stand before a shelve, customized promotions etc. Thats not a feature that will make bitcoin users gladly pay for it, I for one, would find it a reason not to use it even if it was free. It is something Wallmart might want to buy it for tho.

[MoonShadow]

Yeah but it would create a user base to fuel wider adoption of both the device plus btc too.

Not really, because you wouldnt be able to use it 99% of the time.

Alright, how do you come to this conclusion?  Support your position.

[matthewh3]

Maybe other company's will buy-in to the device to offer them subsidised but if the parent company makes sure all the cards can communicate with each other then bingo.  Then the data-mining capability's can be turned on/off for btc/loyalty points.  

[matthewh3]

Also I won't buy the device unless it can be turned off as I don't want big-brother tracking me every where I go.

[matthewh3]

How many people carry a store or supermarket loyalty card?  This is going to be big.

[P4man]

Even if every bitcoin user in the world bought one, chances of being able to connect to the adhoc network would still be.. ~zero.

Thank you for your unsupported layman's opinion.  As for those of us who actually know a thing or two about radio telemetry & propagation, we've been providing actual facts on this kind of device for longer than most of you in this thread have even known what a bitcoin was.

EDIT: I've literally bounced a 2 watt signal off the F level of the ionosphere and was heard over 200 miles away from my position; and actual line-of-sight distance of at least 350 miles up and down.  Granted, that was with some high quality gear that wouldn't fit in my wallet to save my life; but for someone who's only experiences with low-power digital telemetry involves the wifi scanner app on his smartphone to tell me it-just can't-be-done is offensive.

Have you watched the video? They claim 100 to 300m range. Meters, not miles.

For some perspective, I live in one of the worlds most densely populated countries. We have ~10.000 GSM masts for 10 million people, which still isnt enough to provide complete coverage. GSM has ~20x the range of those cards, which probably means you would need ~400x as many users to get comparable coverage (someone bored enough to do the actual math, be my guest).  

How many active bitcoin users were there again worldwide? Something like 30.000?  Even if ALL of them bought one, and ALL of them gathered in my tiny country, it wouldnt work 99% of the time.

[P4man]

Another way of looking at it. Assume the maximum stated range of 300m. Assume perfect spreading.
30000 bitcoin users would be able to cover 51x51 Km. Out of a total of 510 million square Km of land mass. Funny that.

Edit. Not sure where I got the 30K from. It seems to be closer to 5K:
http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/serversStart.png

SO all bitcoin users combined could theoretically cover 21x21Km. More realistically, only a fraction of that, barely enough to cover the small town I live in.

[matthewh3]

Another way of looking at it. Assume the maximum stated range of 300m. Assume perfect spreading.
30000 bitcoin users would be able to cover 51x51 Km. Out of a total of 510 million square Km of land mass. Funny that.

Edit. Not sure where I got the 30K from. It seems to be closer to 5K:
http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/serversStart.png

SO all bitcoin users combined could theoretically cover 21x21Km. More realistically, only a fraction of that, barely enough to cover the small town I live in.

Yes but there will also be lots of stationary nodes and it won't just be BTC users using this device.

[P4man]

Yes but there will also be lots of stationary nodes and it won't just be BTC users using this device.

The key point of the device was that it needed no support infrastructure. But hey, go ahead and add an "access point" for each and every bitcoin user in the world, and still assume theoretical perfect geographic spreading,   and the above numbers.. well,  guess what, they only double.

Dont get me wrong, Im not entirely dismissing the concept. It has some merit assuming they can produce them dirt cheap, and ship them by the hundreds of thousands or at least get them in to the hands of people in targeted geographic locations so you get a meaningful chance of being able to connect. And that essentially means giving them away. I can see business models for that, but bitcoin users buying them isnt one of them.

[evoorhees]

I've spoken with the creator via phone this morning. I do not believe the device is vaporware. Pricing is in the range of "extremely low."

They've been working on this thing for about 5 years, long before Bitcoin. When Bitcoin came around, it made some of the card's former features obsolete so they've retooled it to be heavily Bitcoin-focused. They said they found Bitcoin to be "far superior" to any of the community currencies the device was intended to be used with.

I'll be talking with the creators more and I can say perhaps in a month or so there may be some more solid information/news/review of this thing. In the mean time, just stay tuned and remain appropriately skeptical

[teflone]

Even if every bitcoin user in the world bought one, chances of being able to connect to the adhoc network would still be.. ~zero.

Thank you for your unsupported layman's opinion.  As for those of us who actually know a thing or two about radio telemetry & propagation, we've been providing actual facts on this kind of device for longer than most of you in this thread have even known what a bitcoin was.

EDIT: I've literally bounced a 2 watt signal off the F level of the ionosphere and was heard over 200 miles away from my position; and actual line-of-sight distance of at least 350 miles up and down.  Granted, that was with some high quality gear that wouldn't fit in my wallet to save my life; but for someone who's only experiences with low-power digital telemetry involves the wifi scanner app on his smartphone to tell me it-just can't-be-done is offensive.

QRP For the win!

You work skip a lot ?

Are you working in the 11 metre band ?  

The sun is near maximum, a lot happening on skywave proprogation

If your using 2 watts though, Im guessing your lower mhz than the 11 metre band ?

[SpontaneousDisorder]

Another way of looking at it. Assume the maximum stated range of 300m. Assume perfect spreading.
30000 bitcoin users would be able to cover 51x51 Km. Out of a total of 510 million square Km of land mass. Funny that.

Edit. Not sure where I got the 30K from. It seems to be closer to 5K:
http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/serversStart.png

SO all bitcoin users combined could theoretically cover 21x21Km. More realistically, only a fraction of that, barely enough to cover the small town I live in.

Surely this would be the relevant chart? http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/hostsStart.png

Yours is listening hosts, ie those with open ports I think.

Anyway, surely we have more users than last September (60,000), most probably can't be bothered to keep th chain up to date anymore.

[notme]

Another way of looking at it. Assume the maximum stated range of 300m. Assume perfect spreading.
30000 bitcoin users would be able to cover 51x51 Km. Out of a total of 510 million square Km of land mass. Funny that.

Edit. Not sure where I got the 30K from. It seems to be closer to 5K:
http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/serversStart.png

SO all bitcoin users combined could theoretically cover 21x21Km. More realistically, only a fraction of that, barely enough to cover the small town I live in.

Surely this would be the relevant chart? http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/hostsStart.png

Yours is listening hosts, ie those with open ports I think.

Anyway, surely we have more users than last September (60,000), most probably can't be bothered to keep th chain up to date anymore.

That graph is better, but is still only a lower bound on bitcoin users.  It only shows those who run a full client 24-7.  I know I don't fit that requirement, but yet I spend 3+ hours a day doing bitcoin related activity.

[MoonShadow]

Even if every bitcoin user in the world bought one, chances of being able to connect to the adhoc network would still be.. ~zero.

Thank you for your unsupported layman's opinion.  As for those of us who actually know a thing or two about radio telemetry & propagation, we've been providing actual facts on this kind of device for longer than most of you in this thread have even known what a bitcoin was.

EDIT: I've literally bounced a 2 watt signal off the F level of the ionosphere and was heard over 200 miles away from my position; and actual line-of-sight distance of at least 350 miles up and down.  Granted, that was with some high quality gear that wouldn't fit in my wallet to save my life; but for someone who's only experiences with low-power digital telemetry involves the wifi scanner app on his smartphone to tell me it-just can't-be-done is offensive.

Have you watched the video? They claim 100 to 300m range. Meters, not miles.

For some perspective, I live in one of the worlds most densely populated countries. We have ~10.000 GSM masts for 10 million people, which still isnt enough to provide complete coverage. GSM has ~20x the range of those cards, which probably means you would need ~400x as many users to get comparable coverage (someone bored enough to do the actual math, be my guest).  

How many active bitcoin users were there again worldwide? Something like 30.000?  Even if ALL of them bought one, and ALL of them gathered in my tiny country, it wouldnt work 99% of the time.

You're displaying your ignorance on the topic.  GSM is a wideband commercial product not intended to mesh.  GSM cell phones have a practical range of about two kilometers, but that is to a very senitive celltower tranceiver.  If you tried to mesh two handsets, your range is unlikely to be any better that wifi.  Basicly, if you can see the whoites of their eyes or be heard yelling, then it would work.  There are many variables that effect range; including effective radiated power, receiver senitivity & bandwidth, mode of transmission, error correction algos, etc.  Comparing a mesh tech to that of GSM isn't even comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to pencils.  And the goal of such a mesh isn't to connect two cell phones together with a high enough quality to support a voice codec, it's to transmit a data file of half a kilobyte within a few seconds so that device cound forward it again until the transaction finds an internet router.

[MoonShadow]

Even if every bitcoin user in the world bought one, chances of being able to connect to the adhoc network would still be.. ~zero.

Thank you for your unsupported layman's opinion.  As for those of us who actually know a thing or two about radio telemetry & propagation, we've been providing actual facts on this kind of device for longer than most of you in this thread have even known what a bitcoin was.

EDIT: I've literally bounced a 2 watt signal off the F level of the ionosphere and was heard over 200 miles away from my position; and actual line-of-sight distance of at least 350 miles up and down.  Granted, that was with some high quality gear that wouldn't fit in my wallet to save my life; but for someone who's only experiences with low-power digital telemetry involves the wifi scanner app on his smartphone to tell me it-just can't-be-done is offensive.

QRT For the win!

You work skip a lot ?

Are you working in the 11 metre band ?  

The sun is near maximum, a lot happening on skywave proprogation

If your using 2 watts though, Im guessing your lower mhz than the 11 metre band ?

40 meters, just after dark.  No I don't do it often, and intentionally skipping in the CB band is illegal.  I have a ham radio license.

[MoonShadow]

Another way of looking at it. Assume the maximum stated range of 300m. Assume perfect spreading.
30000 bitcoin users would be able to cover 51x51 Km. Out of a total of 510 million square Km of land mass. Funny that.

Edit. Not sure where I got the 30K from. It seems to be closer to 5K:
http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/serversStart.png

SO all bitcoin users combined could theoretically cover 21x21Km. More realistically, only a fraction of that, barely enough to cover the small town I live in.

Surely this would be the relevant chart? http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/hostsStart.png

Yours is listening hosts, ie those with open ports I think.

Anyway, surely we have more users than last September (60,000), most probably can't be bothered to keep th chain up to date anymore.

We could have a lot more running clients than that, since some of us have 'quite' clients, myself included, that won't show up in those scans.  Those are usually based upon the ip addresses that show up in the bitcoin IRC bootstrapping channels, and there are many clients now that don't use those channels anymore.

[matthewh3]

Another way of looking at it. Assume the maximum stated range of 300m. Assume perfect spreading.
30000 bitcoin users would be able to cover 51x51 Km. Out of a total of 510 million square Km of land mass. Funny that.

Edit. Not sure where I got the 30K from. It seems to be closer to 5K:
http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/serversStart.png

SO all bitcoin users combined could theoretically cover 21x21Km. More realistically, only a fraction of that, barely enough to cover the small town I live in.

Surely this would be the relevant chart? http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/hostsStart.png

Yours is listening hosts, ie those with open ports I think.

Anyway, surely we have more users than last September (60,000), most probably can't be bothered to keep th chain up to date anymore.

We could have a lot more running clients than that, since some of us have 'quite' clients, myself included, that won't show up in those scans.  Those are usually based upon the ip addresses that show up in the bitcoin IRC bootstrapping channels, and there are many clients now that don't use those channels anymore.

Nowadays the only reason real reason I can see in running the full client is to use P2Pool.  Also 11m Freebanding rocks  I've Tx'd to Italy a few times from northern England but have now sold my widebanded HF rig. 

[teflone]

Even if every bitcoin user in the world bought one, chances of being able to connect to the adhoc network would still be.. ~zero.

Thank you for your unsupported layman's opinion.  As for those of us who actually know a thing or two about radio telemetry & propagation, we've been providing actual facts on this kind of device for longer than most of you in this thread have even known what a bitcoin was.

EDIT: I've literally bounced a 2 watt signal off the F level of the ionosphere and was heard over 200 miles away from my position; and actual line-of-sight distance of at least 350 miles up and down.  Granted, that was with some high quality gear that wouldn't fit in my wallet to save my life; but for someone who's only experiences with low-power digital telemetry involves the wifi scanner app on his smartphone to tell me it-just can't-be-done is offensive.

QRP For the win!

You work skip a lot ?

Are you working in the 11 metre band ?  

The sun is near maximum, a lot happening on skywave proprogation

If your using 2 watts though, Im guessing your lower mhz than the 11 metre band ?

40 meters, just after dark.  No I don't do it often, and intentionally skipping in the CB band is illegal.  I have a ham radio license.

Of course its illegal, but everyone does it, Hell, its hard not to accidently and its never enforced up here in Canada..  I use to fool around with the 2 metre band, and the local repeaters when I was much younger..





Whats your call sign ?

[minimalB]

This card looks insanely great in theory... hope to see it work in practice...

[benjamindees]

They said they found Bitcoin to be "far superior" to any of the community currencies the device was intended to be used with.

That is interesting if the device was specifically designed to work with community currencies.  The P2P comm does seem like a good model for a farmers market.

[MoonShadow]

Whats your call sign ?

That would permanently break my forum autonomy, so I'm going to decline.

[P4man]

You're displaying your ignorance on the topic.  GSM is a wideband commercial product not intended to mesh.  GSM cell phones have a practical range of about two kilometers, but that is to a very senitive celltower tranceiver. 

I live 6 KM from the nearest mast, but Im sure you are the expert.
That said,  you asked me to back up my claim of 1% chance to find another bitcoin user within 300m range, it turns out to be an average of 0,00051%  assuming ideal circumstances. I might be ignorant about radio technology, I do have a basic grasp of arithmetic. Do you?

[matthewh3]

You're displaying your ignorance on the topic.  GSM is a wideband commercial product not intended to mesh.  GSM cell phones have a practical range of about two kilometers, but that is to a very senitive celltower tranceiver.

I live 6 KM from the nearest mast, but Im sure you are the expert.
That said,  you asked me to back up my claim of 1% chance to find another bitcoin user within 300m range, it turns out to be an average of 0,00051%  assuming ideal circumstances. I might be ignorant about radio technology, I do have a basic grasp of arithmetic. Do you?

The 2m band the cards operate on have much better propagation effects than the bands mobile phones operate on.  Also you are missing the point this is not just about BTC users and there will also be LOTS of stationary nodes too once the likes of Wall-Mart, Tesco and most other chains start issuing them as store/loyalty cards.  

[P4man]

The 2m band the cards operate on have much better propagation effects than the bands mobile phones operate on.

Thats not my point. Im going by their claimed performance. They say 100-300m, and Ive generously been using 300m. Are you saying in reality its 3Km?

 Also you are missing the point this is not just about BTC users and there will be LOTS of stationary nodes too once the likes of Wall-Mart, Tesco and most other chains start issuing them as store/loyalty cards.  

That is my point. Its not going to be bitcoin users paying for these cards and creating a mesh. If this ever takes off, it will be those kinds of companies creating the infrastructure and giving out those cards for free.

[Matthew N. Wright]

Bottom line folks, advertising this as a stand-alone device but in reality requiring the operation of another physical node is downright retarded.

[MoonShadow]

Bottom line folks, advertising this as a stand-alone device but in reality requiring the operation of another physical node is downright retarded.

It's neither 'retarded' nor deceptive.  The video advertises 'no supporting infrastructure' with a collapsing cell tower in the background.  Although it's not technically true, since a usb dongle attached to the back of a POS terminal or internet router is 'supporting infrastructure', the reality is that it doesn't depend upon commercial communications infrastructure.  It can mesh to extend it's practical communications ranges, although that's much more likely to involve privately owned dongles and the internet than not.  Still, your cell phone can't mesh at all, unless you have a rooted android phone with a running Serval client, and even then can't mesh more than 70 meters with no obstacles.  (I should know, I have actually done this)  If your city has a power outage, your cell towers' batteries die in three or less hours.  So not only can't you make a regular phone call, even though your cell phone is fine, you can't spend bitcoin with the guy standing next to you.  With a device that's capable of directly communicating with other devices sans infrastructure support would at least open up the possibility of bitcoin business transactions in meatspace where internet access is not a given.  Someone is going to do this, and if done well, the radio standard is going to stick, and more capable devices are going to come into existance that can act like a bitcoincard, a bitcoincard server, etc. 

[MoonShadow]

The 2m band the cards operate on have much better propagation effects than the bands mobile phones operate on.

Thats not my point. Im going by their claimed performance. They say 100-300m, and Ive generously been using 300m. Are you saying in reality its 3Km?

I think that you got that from me.  I said, if this card is based upon Dash7, a line of sight range of 2km is possible.  At least it's possible with a true line of sight and the owner holding the card above his head like shown in the video.

 Also you are missing the point this is not just about BTC users and there will be LOTS of stationary nodes too once the likes of Wall-Mart, Tesco and most other chains start issuing them as store/loyalty cards.  

That is my point. Its not going to be bitcoin users paying for these cards and creating a mesh. If this ever takes off, it will be those kinds of companies creating the infrastructure and giving out those cards for free.

So?

[cuz0882]

I was thinking along with this device they should have a usb stick. One that acts like a node in the network also. This could give access to the block chain while increasing the size of the service area. It would be a rather large project but a server could link them all together that way as well.