Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder

[daddyfatsax]

Better?

One too many 'are's. Does that make it arse?

Dammit... It makes me an arse.

[Unacceptable]

All right,he is a decent guy & I wasn't trying to piss anyone off,just trying to get a point across 

How's this 

[dogie]

This company's rating has been updated in the Manufacturer Trustworthiness thread.

[This message won't be monitored, discuss your concerns in the thread.]

[graymatter]

Entertaining to say the least-

Fact's-

Only devices using 16nm technologies are cell phones, using TINY amounts of voltage and amps, thus, low heat.

Intel's 14nm processor is suffering from massive overheating issues, they are now triyng to work in 3 dimensional space, as the 14nm / 16nm resistors generate so much heat that it melts the wafers.

No 16nm chip produces has had the type of heat running through it like these ASIC's will produce (unlike 20nm, use in processors, and GPU's)


Speculation-

ITS VERY BAD, that no processors, or GPU chips (high heat) have been made with this technology.  This chip will fail considering intel, with 2 years, and 50million dollars invested haven't been able to produce an efficient 14nm processor chip, I doubt these under qualified engineers have a chance in hell at doing anything that will work.  

Do NOT PRE-ORDER, it may take several months to a year before 16nm chips are ready for ASIC production.

Sources - ACTUAL ENGINEER, consulting with engineer friends who work on the 14nm intel chip production plant in Chandler, AZ....

clueless newbie - saying that you spoke to an actual engineer isn't quoting a source.  to do that you need to say exactly who you spoke to.

anyhow... thats ridiculous to say 16nm isn't ideal for bitcoin chips and only useful for mobile chips.  what a ridiculous thing to say.   the reality is that anything thats good for mobile chips, which are low voltage and low power, is exceptionally good for bitcoin mining chips as well since they too need to be low voltage and low power.  in fact, i think you'll find that bitcoin chips run at even lower voltages, on the whole, than mobile phone chips do..!

one thing I'm pretty sure of, is that in 2015, a large amount of bitcoin mining will be done on 16nm chips, and by 2016, probably most of it will be 16nm.  its just so much better than 28nm (and yes, even 20nm) that there's no reason not to use it for everything.

btw, nvidia has already announced they're using 16nm for their next graphics chips.

cointerra may have the first 16nm to be ready for tapeout, but i guarantee within the space of 6 months, a lot more 16nm are coming.  its the obvious next step for the majority of the asic companies that want the lowest possible power and smallest possible silicon area (= more dies per wafer).   sure, some smart companies can eek out a bit more juice out of 28nm and survive for one more generation in 28nm, but ultimately in 2015 they will all be using 16nm,.. cointerra's just the first, thats all.  they might be a quarter or two ahead of the pack, but the whole pack is going there!

(btw, 16nm tsmc and 14nm Samsung/global foundries are pretty much similar in specs, so for our purposes are interchangeable)

Lol you obviously don't understand hardware at all do you?  My point was, only mobile processors / applications are using 16nm technology currently.  Also, you're argument for Nvidia going to 16nm is flawed at best.  First off, they are over a year out, second, they recently switched to Maxwell technology, that allows them to use about 50% less power than older models.

My point is, NO ONE has produced an efficient 14nm or 16nm process (like CPU / GPU processor yet 5volts to 9volt power).  The reason is, the transistors are so close together on the wafer, it causes extensive heat, they literally melt the silicon between the transistors.  This is why Intel's 14nm tech has been in development for so long.  They are trying now to solve it by printing in 3 dimensions (more space between transistors for cooling) buts its going to be another 6 months to a year, and Intel isn't going to share there process for 2 more years.

Obviously you have no understanding or clue what is involved.  You say the ASICS can benefit from low voltage, while that is true, they can't achieve the same type of processing potential running on 2volts the same way they can on 5volts.  Its simply physics and I'm sorry if I'm talking above your head.  Am I saying its impossible, absolutely not, but they technology they are working on is cutting edge.  If you think that butterfly labs had issues with 20nm process, just wait for CoinTerra trying to do this on the 16nm level.

Come revisit this threat in March of next year and will see how spot on the hardware issues are as they miss deadline after deadline.

[RoadStress]

Lol you obviously don't understand hardware at all do you?  My point was, only mobile processors / applications are using 16nm technology currently.  Also, you're argument for Nvidia going to 16nm is flawed at best.  First off, they are over a year out, second, they recently switched to Maxwell technology, that allows them to use about 50% less power than older models.

My point is, NO ONE has produced an efficient 14nm or 16nm process (like CPU / GPU processor yet 5volts to 9volt power).  The reason is, the transistors are so close together on the wafer, it causes extensive heat, they literally melt the silicon between the transistors.  This is why Intel's 14nm tech has been in development for so long.  They are trying now to solve it by printing in 3 dimensions (more space between transistors for cooling) buts its going to be another 6 months to a year, and Intel isn't going to share there process for 2 more years.

Obviously you have no understanding or clue what is involved.  You say the ASICS can benefit from low voltage, while that is true, they can't achieve the same type of processing potential running on 2volts the same way they can on 5volts.  Its simply physics and I'm sorry if I'm talking above your head.  Am I saying its impossible, absolutely not, but they technology they are working on is cutting edge.  If you think that butterfly labs had issues with 20nm process, just wait for CoinTerra trying to do this on the 16nm level.

Come revisit this threat in March of next year and will see how spot on the hardware issues are as they miss deadline after deadline.

In his defense I can say that he clearly understands hardware since he is an investor in Cointerra. From you post I can see that YOU don't understand hardware. Bitcoin mining can't be compared to CPU or GPU. It's just a simple thing that can be paralleled very easy on the chip and it doesn't operate at such volts that you mentioned. You are comparing apples to oranges. And this is coming just from me who learned all this stuff about chips from wikipedia and this forum. We will see 16nm and 14nm chips in 2015! Not later.

[Dexter770221]

.....
We will see 16nm and 14nm chips in 2015! Not later.

16nm propably. 14nm propably not. Only Intel and Samsung are ready with 14nm. But they wil not produce for small asic company (extremly high costs). TSMC is ready with 16nm but they are so busy with 20nm Apple CPUs that they will start mass production on 16nm in Q2'15.

[dlowings]

.....
We will see 16nm and 14nm chips in 2015! Not later.

16nm propably. 14nm propably not. Only Intel and Samsung are ready with 14nm. But they wil not produce for small asic company (extremly high costs). TSMC is ready with 16nm but they are so busy with 20nm Apple CPUs that they will start mass production on 16nm in Q2'15.

if that were the case, hobby miner might not see anything real until 2016 ?

[RoadStress]

.....
We will see 16nm and 14nm chips in 2015! Not later.

16nm propably. 14nm propably not. Only Intel and Samsung are ready with 14nm. But they wil not produce for small asic company (extremly high costs). TSMC is ready with 16nm but they are so busy with 20nm Apple CPUs that they will start mass production on 16nm in Q2'15.

Bitcoin miners don't qualify for mass production so having a couple of wafers available for this wouldn't surprise me. While right now the mining ecosystem is a bit boring I think we have some interesting times ahead.

[jimmothy]

.....
We will see 16nm and 14nm chips in 2015! Not later.

16nm propably. 14nm propably not. Only Intel and Samsung are ready with 14nm. But they wil not produce for small asic company (extremly high costs). TSMC is ready with 16nm but they are so busy with 20nm Apple CPUs that they will start mass production on 16nm in Q2'15.

Looks like you're right: http://www.kitguru.net/channel/generaltech/anton-shilov/tsmc-slightly-postpones-mass-production-of-16nm-chips-to-q2-2015/

Funny how Cointerra is still advertising Q1 shipment..

I hope their customers don't mind the 6+ month delay.

[johny08]

Yeah. this forum is not known for big thinker.

Anyway. I will try. Dont make a pre-order. There were maybe one or two cases of pre-orders for mining hardware, which was profitable. The mining forum is full of stories, with companies didnt or delivered not to promised date.

STAY AWAY OF FUNDING PRE SALE MINING OPERATIONS. JUST THINK, ANY INVESTOR WOULD GIVE THEM ENOUGH MONEY IF IT WOULD BE A GOOD DEAL, BUT SO THEY NEED YOU TO FINANCE THEIR OPERATION.

[TerraBatic]

Jez or aerobatic, the rumors in the industry are that CoinTerra didn't TapeOut their 16nm chip yet because they don't have the $. Why does CoinTerra still collect preorders on a product they don't intend to deliver? Do you feel it's ethical? How do you feel as an investor and board member?
Rumors are that CoinTerra is approaching anyone in the industry for funding. Do you have any comments on that? How close is CoinTerra for bankruptcy?

[aerobatic]

Jez or aerobatic, the rumors in the industry are that CoinTerra didn't TapeOut their 16nm chip yet because they don't have the $. Why does CoinTerra still collect preorders on a product they don't intend to deliver? Do you feel it's ethical? How do you feel as an investor and board member?
Rumors are that CoinTerra is approaching anyone in the industry for funding. Do you have any comments on that? How close is CoinTerra for bankruptcy?

TerraBatic... nice name, but you're posting from a newbie account.  by which more common name are you known?

btw.. am an investor not board member.

a 16nm chip is an expensive asic to produce - funds required for tapeout and production are significant and are much higher than for other previous types of asic (read: north of $10m) so to raise that amount they will be considering all the common financing techniques like pre-orders, partnerships and investors.  its also sensible that they talk to other mining companies to see who wants to join forces and share the burden.

imho, its pretty obvious there are way too many unique asics in the bitcoin mining business and these companies are wasting too much cash reinventing the same things - and in an ideal scenario there should be more effort amongst them to share technology and the huge costs of creating new silicon - both to reduce the wasted nre's, and also to bring better economies of scale.

[Bakal]

CONterra is much a better name.

[dropt]

a 16nm chip is an expensive asic to produce - funds required for tapeout and production are significant and are much higher than for other previous types of asic (read: north of $10m) so to raise that amount they will be considering all the common financing techniques like pre-orders, partnerships and investors. 

Have they not generated sufficient revenue from their private farm?

[Sine(X)]

a 16nm chip is an expensive asic to produce - funds required for tapeout and production are significant and are much higher than for other previous types of asic (read: north of $10m) so to raise that amount they will be considering all the common financing techniques like pre-orders, partnerships and investors. 

Have they not generated sufficient revenue from their private farm?

They didn't grow about 3 month (http://organofcorti.blogspot.ru/), so the answer is likely "No". Otherwise they would increase power, but if they have no money to do it, what is probability they will find 10m$ for 16nm chip? Asymptotically approaches zero..

[aerobatic]

a 16nm chip is an expensive asic to produce - funds required for tapeout and production are significant and are much higher than for other previous types of asic (read: north of $10m) so to raise that amount they will be considering all the common financing techniques like pre-orders, partnerships and investors. 

Have they not generated sufficient revenue from their private farm?

They didn't grow about 3 month (http://organofcorti.blogspot.ru/), so the answer is likely "No". Otherwise they would increase power, but if they have no money to do it, what is probability they will find 10m$ for 16nm chip? Asymptotically approaches zero..

mining operations provide bitcoin revenue, but the low price of btc means exposure to exchange rate fluctuations hurts miners more than most (hosting/electricity costs in dollars, revenue in bitcoins) and also, most other miners that operate private mines also raise cash from investors/partnerships (kncminer, bitfury, asicminer, 21e6 et al)

[Sine(X)]

a 16nm chip is an expensive asic to produce - funds required for tapeout and production are significant and are much higher than for other previous types of asic (read: north of $10m) so to raise that amount they will be considering all the common financing techniques like pre-orders, partnerships and investors. 

Have they not generated sufficient revenue from their private farm?

They didn't grow about 3 month (http://organofcorti.blogspot.ru/), so the answer is likely "No". Otherwise they would increase power, but if they have no money to do it, what is probability they will find 10m$ for 16nm chip? Asymptotically approaches zero..

mining operations provide bitcoin revenue, but the low price of btc means exposure to exchange rate fluctuations hurts miners more than most (hosting/electricity costs in dollars, revenue in bitcoins) and also, most other miners that operate private mines also raise cash from investors/partnerships (kncminer, bitfury, asicminer, 21e6 et al)

Yes, investors are very important, that's why reputation is a main factor for mining business today.. One look at Dogie's rating will enough for investor won't give even a dollar to Cointerra.
What about 21e6? They are in the Unknown group by Organofcorti statistics, aren't they?

[aerobatic]

Yes, investors are very important, that's why reputation is a main factor for mining business today.. One look at Dogie's rating will enough for investor won't give even a dollar to Cointerra.
What about 21e6? They are in the Unknown group by Organofcorti statistics, aren't they?

i dont think anyone in the real world takes dogie's (biassed and inaccurate) ratings too seriously.  there's few ratings there that can be substantiated given the facts and his ratings are very openly based on emotion and anecdote rather than actual data.  ive tried to work with him on improving the accuracy but reality doesnt seem too important and he's not able to take input nor criticism from anyone else (certainly not me).  im sure its also a coincidence that several of the companies that paid him (in cash or kind) to write a guide for them may have scored better in his ratings than they deserve.

as for 21e6, rumours are theyve raised a significant amount of cash from silicon valley investors...  and are now working on their third chip... (apparently the other two werent especially competitive).  im sure they're mining so they must be in the unknown category, as you say.

[testerx]

Given how our orders over the last year went with Cointerra and the fact that 2 out of 4 delivered Terraminers went kaput I will be sitting this one out.  They're not the worst company I've ordered from (ahem BFL) but when there are reliable companies that'll ship out hardware within a couple of days that seem to have much more reliable hardware I don't see why anybody would buy from Cointerra this time around.

[bitndx]

If it is known that Cointerra's supplier is not going to deliver 16nm to them until Q2 2015; then the CT website target delivery date needs to shift from Q1 as well. Especially when one signs refunds and recourse away in the sale terms fine print.

Otherwise that sales method sounds deceptive to me.