Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder

[RoadStress]

Cointerra is by now a bigger player in the ASIC mining industry, with around 20MW of own mining operations, and a good amount of sold product, so the chance of them defaulting over this product is smaller.

How low can the TerraMiner go with efficiency? I remember them being over 1W/GH so having 20MW of that efficiency is close to losing money at this point so I'm not impressed of anyone having so much speed deployed if they are close to no profit.

[aerobatic]

How low can the TerraMiner go with efficiency? I remember them being over 1W/GH so having 20MW of that efficiency is close to losing money at this point so I'm not impressed of anyone having so much speed deployed if they are close to no profit.

in the web management pages, users have the ability to tell it how much power to use (power stepping mode), and it will scale the performance accordingly.  this should allow people to choose the optimum power and performance for their situation, if they're paying a lot for their power.  of course, with many miners now having moved or are moving to cheaper places to host, like washington state, where the cost of power is less than half the cost of power in the rest of the US (and 1/10th of the cost of power in California)... there will still be a few more months of profitable mining for many miners.   but yes, the writing is on the wall.. and the current generation of miners is surely on their last legs and need to be replaced with more power efficient miners.   cointerra's 0.23w/gh miner is one such but I'm sure there will be others

luckily, difficulty has slowed right down and the next step will probably be the smallest difficulty jump in a very long time - which could allow bitcoin miners to hang in there awhile longer.   and who knows, difficulty might even go backwards now that the price of bitcoin is so low and the cost of mining is relatively speaking, so high.

[Collider]

How low can the TerraMiner go with efficiency? I remember them being over 1W/GH so having 20MW of that efficiency is close to losing money at this point so I'm not impressed of anyone having so much speed deployed if they are close to no profit.

You should be impressed because they have at least had 1MW added every month since April, which got them a good amount of profit already.
They also sold much of that power at a massive profit to their cloudhashing customers, so instant profit there.

I guestimate that it is not running much better than 1W/GH but their operational cost should be quite low in terms of $ /kWh due to economies of scale.
(Then again, only their newly built 20MW facility in Canada, which isn´t finished yet, should have the very lowest cost per kWh).


This recent option to pre-order their newest miner is only a way for them to recover/finance the MASSIVE NRE (which already is around $7-15M for 20nm development) faster.

Actual internal cost of these units could be around half of the current 28nm cost, which is slightly below 0.4$/GH on good 28nm designs.
(Assuming cheap labour costs and very high production volume, a little higher for water-cooled setups).

[RoadStress]

in the web management pages, users have the ability to tell it how much power to use (power stepping mode), and it will scale the performance accordingly.  this should allow people to choose the optimum power and performance for their situation, if they're paying a lot for their power.  of course, with many miners now having moved or are moving to cheaper places to host, like washington state, where the cost of power is less than half the cost of power in the rest of the US (and 1/10th of the cost of power in California)... there will still be a few more months of profitable mining for many miners.   but yes, the writing is on the wall.. and the current generation of miners is surely on their last legs and need to be replaced with more power efficient miners.   cointerra's 0.23w/gh miner is one such but I'm sure there will be others

luckily, difficulty has slowed right down and the next step will probably be the smallest difficulty jump in a very long time - which could allow bitcoin miners to hang in there awhile longer.   and who knows, difficulty might even go backwards now that the price of bitcoin is so low and the cost of mining is relatively speaking, so high.

Fancy and complicated answer for a simple question. How low can TerraMiners go with efficiency was my question. From your answer I understand that they can go as low as 0.23W/GH which I don't believe it. Maybe you were referring to the chip efficiency, not the whole system, but even so I still find it hard to believe it. I want to see it!

You should be impressed because they have at least had 1MW added every month since April, which got them a good amount of profit already.
They also sold much of that power at a massive profit to their cloudhashing customers, so instant profit there.

I guestimate that it is not running much better than 1W/GH but their operational cost should be quite low in terms of $ /kWh due to economies of scale.
(Then again, only their newly built 20MW facility in Canada, which isn´t finished yet, should have the very lowest cost per kWh).


This recent option to pre-order their newest miner is only a way for them to recover/finance the MASSIVE NRE (which already is around $7-15M for 20nm development) faster.

Actual internal cost of these units could be around half of the current 28nm cost, which is slightly below 0.4$/GH on good 28nm designs.
(Assuming cheap labour costs and very high production volume, a little higher for water-cooled setups).

That's a total of 7MW on top (or not?) of their 20MW facility in Canada. I am sorry, but I am not impressed. Bitfury can do 20MW every 2 months. That's impressive! Remember that they still need a couple of millions on top of NRE costs in order to build their new miners. Also we must not forget that HF defaulted with how many tens of millions in pre-orders? 30M$? 50M$?

[Collider]

They are building their 20MW facility (it is not finished / operational as far as I know).
They have added at least 1MW of capacity every month since April, and those first added PH were obviously the most profitable ones.
(Customers at 3$/GH have more than broken even twice, so you can see that Cointerra at internal cost of ~0.5$/GH has been shitting gold).

In August they had around 15MW of own / outsorced capacity, populated with miners.
Additionally, they sold cloudhashing contracts with a massive margin (and delivered around 5000 miners until June afaik).

I agree that Bitfury is more impressive, but Bitfury´s internal hardware cost on the 55nm chip is above or equal to 0.6$/GH, while cointerra should have been below 0.5$/GH from the start of their sales.

The claimed efficiency seems entirely within the realms of possibility, especially if you see that current spondoolies/bitmain chips manage around 0.55W/GH on 28nm, and possibly even better with additional optimisation.
That doesn´t mean that they will achieve the claimed efficiency, especially if their track-record is anything to go by.

However, they are currently the only ones that offer next-gen hardware for pre-order, and I am sure they will get some people / bigger investors to spend a lot.

[aerobatic]

 

Fancy and complicated answer for a simple question. How low can TerraMiners go with efficiency was my question. From your answer I understand that they can go as low as 0.23W/GH which I don't believe it. Maybe you were referring to the chip efficiency, not the whole system, but even so I still find it hard to believe it. I want to see it!

the 0.23 W/GH is the 16nm 'aire-miner' they're offering for pre-order now.  its not their old 28nm based 'terraminer' !! no one has a 28nm based product that can achieve 0.23w/gh... at this time. and sure, we both know people are working on it and hoping to get there.  and it may happen in 2015...  but 16nm has a lot further it can go.  the 0.23w/gh that cointerra are claiming isn't the lowest power mode it can support.  its the most cost effective one (capital and operating costs are balanced over a 12 month period).  when it needs to be lower power, it could be well draw lower than 0.2 w/gh when running in low power mode (at lower volts).  you can't test that til silicon comes back, as its not easy to simulate at low volts.

i actually have no idea how low a terraminer can go.  suspects its not a long way under 1w/GH but ya never know!  perhaps someone that has one would like to put it on a killawatt  on it and select the lowest power stepping mode and give it a try for us (mine are hosted and i don't have access to them).   there's two models of terraminer.. the 1.6 TH one that shipped for the first few months and the 2.0 TH (that shipped in the last few months).  the latter one is more power efficient, as the extra performance was achieved without more power and just by using more efficient dc/dc converters.

[RoadStress]

They are building their 20MW facility (it is not finished / operational as far as I know).
They have added at least 1MW of capacity every month since April, and those first added PH were obviously the most profitable ones.
(Customers at 3$/GH have more than broken even twice, so you can see that Cointerra at internal cost of ~0.5$/GH has been shitting gold).

In August they had around 15MW of own / outsorced capacity, populated with miners.
Additionally, they sold cloudhashing contracts with a massive margin (and delivered around 5000 miners until June afaik).

I agree that Bitfury is more impressive, but Bitfury´s internal hardware cost on the 55nm chip is above or equal to 0.6$/GH, while cointerra should have been below 0.5$/GH from the start of their sales.

The claimed efficiency seems entirely within the realms of possibility, especially if you see that current spondoolies chips manage around 0.55W/GH on 28nm, and possibly even better with additional optimisation.
That doesn´t mean that they will achieve the claimed efficiency, especially with their track-record though.

You didn't understand my reply. I was trying to say that big money doesn't mean that they are safe from default or from fail. I wasn't implying that the are not making money.

Also I wanted to know what's their best efficiency for their already deployed MW. I think aerobatic replied to me about their 16nm miner, but I'm not interested in that. I wanted to know their best efficiency on their deployed miners with the GoldStrike1 ASIC chip.

the 0.23 W/GH is the 16nm 'aire-miner' they're offering for pre-order now.  its not their old 28nm based 'terraminer' !! no one has a 28nm based product that can achieve 0.23w/gh... at this time.

I was asking about the Terraminer when you replied about 0.23W/GH. Everything is clear now.

[Collider]

You didn't understand my reply. I was trying to say that big money doesn't mean that they are safe from default or from fail. I wasn't implying that the are not making money.

Also I wanted to know what's their best efficiency for their already deployed MW. I think aerobatic replied to me about their 16nm miner, but I'm not interested in that. I wanted to know their best efficiency on their deployed miners with the GoldStrike1 ASIC chip.

Around 1W/GH, maybe 0.8. Any lower than that the voltage won´t allow the chip to work. (assuming the chip desing wasn´t changed)
It also means that you would only achieve around 10TH / rack on the standard customer design, but they either have access to cheap space or they have redesigned the enclosures for higher density.

[aerobatic]

I was asking about the Terraminer when you replied about 0.23W/GH. Everything is clear now.

here's some assumptions...

lets assume that they've produced circa 20+ PH of terraminers.  lets say its 50:50 of the older 1.6TH and newer 2.0 TH boxes. 

cointerra's own network is circa 12 PH, according to organofcorti stats... is probably some old and mostly newer terra miners, since their network only started after the last customer pre-orders were delivered.

this needs to be tested by someone that actually has boxes...  but i would guess its in the 0.7-0.85 w/gh range- certainly not going to get as low as the newer generation miners from others that are in the 0.5-0.6 range.   suspect the newer 2.0 TH terraminer has more control over its voltages and could potentially use less power than the earlier model at the lower en of the range as well.

of course, a major factor is where the miners are and how much power costs at that location.   for instance, a power inefficient miner in a cheap power location (e.g. washington, iceland etc) could be more profitable than a more efficient miner in an expensive place (california..?  israel?  china?  take your pick).

in the short term, minimising power cost by moving miners to where they can operate cheaper, and thus, for longer, is the right thing to do... and in the long-term, its to use more power efficient miners, that have the margin to become even more power efficient when the need is there, so that they can be utilised for at least a year without having to change the miner.

-- Jez

[Rabinovitch]

DO NOT BUY FROM COINTERRA! you have been warned!

Thanx, I will not. )

[Minor Miner]

If they have all this money, and are such a great company, why do they need PREORDER money?
I bought a tesla X and he did not need me to pay for it.   I will pay for it when (and if) he delivers it.

[jimmothy]

If they have all this money, and are such a great company, why do they need PREORDER money?
I bought a tesla X and he did not need me to pay for it.   I will pay for it when (and if) he delivers it.

It's really quite obvious if you've ever preordered hardware. They just want more money.

They know that hardware be selling from stock for ~$0.2/gh by time they are finally shipping so they would rather have people pay current rates instead.

[Collider]

I never said pre-ordering in general or from this company specifically is a good idea.

In fact most of the time you can buy cheaper hardware from in-hand vendors by the time your pre-order should arrive.
More than 4 months is obviously a very long time in Bitcoin land and nobody should lock in money for miners that long.

I was mainly commenting on the technical feasability aswell as giving some background information.

[Syke]

If they have all this money, and are such a great company, why do they need PREORDER money?
I bought a tesla X and he did not need me to pay for it.   I will pay for it when (and if) he delivers it.

They do preorders so that all risk is on the customer. There's no reason to risk your own money when there are thousands of idiots out there that will risk their money instead.

[Coin_Master]

Do not fund these people.

Pre-ordering is trusting someone else with your money.

Don't do it.

Totally agree with Josh here.  We have seen enough scams/failed promises to know that pre-ordering can no longer be considered an option.
Avoid pre-orders!

[Unacceptable]

Do not fund these people.

Pre-ordering is trusting someone else with your money.

Don't do it.

Totally agree with Josh here.  We have seen enough scams/failed promises to know that pre-ordering can no longer be considered an option.
Avoid pre-orders!

[Bicknellski]

If they have all this money, and are such a great company, why do they need PREORDER money?
I bought a tesla X and he did not need me to pay for it.   I will pay for it when (and if) he delivers it.

It's really quite obvious if you've ever preordered hardware. They just want more money.

They know that hardware be selling from stock for ~$0.2/gh by time they are finally shipping so they would rather have people pay current rates instead.

Further can you really trust Cointerra given the last miner they put out on the market and the amount of complaints, refund issues and so and so on. I suggest steer clear of them on that alone.

Looks like they completely removed the entire forum today also.

Oh no.. that is a clear red flag there.

[2112]

Could somebody please fix this meme? The text should be "Pre-order ASIC Prices Are Too Damn High!". Jimmy McMillan is too much of a gentleman to be dropping f-bombs.

[daddyfatsax]

Better?

Edited because I cannot proof-read like an adult.

[-ck]

Better?

One too many 'are's. Does that make it arse?