Ive Never Met a Poor or Non-White Libertarian

[Lethn]

Like I said, you're just pushing your own beliefs onto somebody who was simply born into that situation, they don't owe you anything just for living.

Do they ever went to the hospital? Did they went to school? did they ever used a road? How about electricity? Water?

We are social animals and we have live in a society, there are many resources and infrastructure that are shared, directly or indirectly, by everyone and they do need to be paid for.

Like I said, there's no free lunch.

Fucking newborn babies not able to instantly teleport themselves out of tax slavery as soon as they leave the womb!

Correct.

lol nice, obey or die logic, too bad I never subscribe to that.

[pedrog]

Like I said, you're just pushing your own beliefs onto somebody who was simply born into that situation, they don't owe you anything just for living.

Do they ever went to the hospital? Did they went to school? did they ever used a road? How about electricity? Water?

We are social animals and we have live in a society, there are many resources and infrastructure that are shared, directly or indirectly, by everyone and they do need to be paid for.

Like I said, there's no free lunch.

Fucking newborn babies not able to instantly teleport themselves out of tax slavery as soon as they leave the womb!

Correct.

lol nice, obey or die logic, too bad I never subscribe to that.

Well, it's not "obey or die", but one has a responsibility or duty to provide the next generations with the same or better opportunities that were given to us.

Even the Bitcoin protocol, the liberal/libertarian/anarchist wet dream isn't tax free, one has to pay fees in order to keep the system running...

[TheButterZone]

Like I said, you're just pushing your own beliefs onto somebody who was simply born into that situation, they don't owe you anything just for living.

Do they ever went to the hospital? Did they went to school? did they ever used a road? How about electricity? Water?

We are social animals and we have live in a society, there are many resources and infrastructure that are shared, directly or indirectly, by everyone and they do need to be paid for.

Like I said, there's no free lunch.

Fucking newborn babies not able to instantly teleport themselves out of tax slavery as soon as they leave the womb!

Correct.

lol nice, obey or die logic, too bad I never subscribe to that.

Well, it's not "obey or die", but one has a responsibility or duty to provide the next generations with the same or better opportunities that were given to us.

Even the Bitcoin protocol, the liberal/libertarian/anarchist wet dream isn't tax free, one has to pay fees in order to keep the system running...

Wrong. One has a responsibility or duty to provide the next generations a lack of a police state aka 24/7/365 civil rights violations funded by taxes.

Wrong. Almost every transaction I send requires no fee, and confirms in the next block or 2.

[pedrog]

Like I said, you're just pushing your own beliefs onto somebody who was simply born into that situation, they don't owe you anything just for living.

Do they ever went to the hospital? Did they went to school? did they ever used a road? How about electricity? Water?

We are social animals and we have live in a society, there are many resources and infrastructure that are shared, directly or indirectly, by everyone and they do need to be paid for.

Like I said, there's no free lunch.

Fucking newborn babies not able to instantly teleport themselves out of tax slavery as soon as they leave the womb!

Correct.

lol nice, obey or die logic, too bad I never subscribe to that.

Well, it's not "obey or die", but one has a responsibility or duty to provide the next generations with the same or better opportunities that were given to us.

Even the Bitcoin protocol, the liberal/libertarian/anarchist wet dream isn't tax free, one has to pay fees in order to keep the system running...

Wrong. Almost every transaction I send requires no fee, and confirms in the next block or 2.

That's because there's a subsidy/inflation in place, you need to think long term, way beyond the subsidy.

[Biomech]

And this has caused me to rethink my views. Im such a believer in personal freedom, but I dont really see how the endgame for freetrade can be anything other than disaster.

There is a selfishness to Libertarianism which is unappealing to me. It isnt explicit, and it isnt necessary by default, but human nature is by default selfish.

When you extrapolate this selfishness out a thousandfold into the future, the disparity between the haves and have nots becomes cataclysmic to civil society.

The only way I can see a libertarian capitalist utopia actually working is when people at the very very top, the .001%, act in a manner which benefits society at large.

But the problem is, for every Warren Buffet and Bill Gates, there are 10 Dick Cheneys and Mitt Romneys.

Sadly, the 1% are not a benevolent group: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/27/the-rich-are-as-selfish-as-you-think.html

I'm a libertarian anarchist, and flat broke.

I'm also of mixed ancestry, white and Native American.

Widen your scope of investigation, you'll find a lot of us.

[Lethn]

I'm also half-irish, but it's not like that matters to someone who's a blatant moron and can't see past their own brainwashed perceptions of certain groups of people I'm tired of people on this board who are part of mainstream politics trying to fit me in somewhere they're comfortable with and it's funny when I don't fit into anything they've been taught about.

[pedrog]

I'm also half-irish, but it's not like that matters to someone who's a blatant moron and can't see past their own brainwashed perceptions of certain groups of people I'm tired of people on this board who are part of mainstream politics trying to fit me in somewhere they're comfortable with and it's funny when I don't fit into anything they've been taught about.

What, are you referring to me?

[cdog]

Gee thanks, nice to know someone out there in the world views someone's ideology purely based on whether they're white, I truly enjoy it when someone talks about themselves so benignly and then proceeds to spew an incredibly racist and hypocritical rant just because they think it's okay to say that kind of shit to white people, you know, because they deserve it. I also find it even more amusing when these people rant about how selfish people like Libertarians and Anarchists are and completely ignore the fact that they aren't the ones going around and forcing people to pay taxes through either threat of imprisonment or gunpoint, because that's oh so much better for a society to be oppressed through fear rather than letting them be generous to society through choice.

As it stands, Anarcho-Communists, Anarcho-Syndicalists and even Marxists have more fucking empathy from me than people like the OP, when government loyalists acknowledge the fact that you go to jail if you don't pay your taxes then we'll talk.

A) Im white

B) I never said that there are no poor or non-white libertarians, I just said Ive never met one

C) I never said libertarians are selfish, I said human beings are selfish


It seems I touched a nerve here. I never asked for your empathy, I just wanted to have conversation about my evolving political beliefs.

I am a libertarian, but I have a high degree of compassion for mankind and the plight of the average person. Furthermore, when civil society breaks down as a result of the endgame of free markets, nobody wins - even with the people who have all the money and property. They will essentially be living in a prison. How could anyone argue for this result?

My issue is, how do we retain total economic freedom without an endgame which results in our society breaking down, the start of which we are currently seeing.

This is a sincere question, its been bothering me for weeks.

[Biomech]

A) Im white

B) I never said that there are no poor or non-white libertarians, I just said Ive never met one

C) I never said libertarians are selfish, I said human beings are selfish


It seems I touched a nerve here. I never asked for your empathy, I just wanted to have conversation about my evolving political beliefs.

I am a libertarian, but I have a high degree of compassion for mankind and the plight of the average person. Furthermore, when civil society breaks down as a result of the endgame of free markets, nobody wins - even with the people who have all the money and property. They will essentially be living in a prison. How could anyone argue for this result?

My issue is, how do we retain total economic freedom without an endgame which results in our society breaking down, the start of which we are currently seeing.

This is a sincere question, its been bothering me for weeks.

Now that, sir, is a very cogent question. One I've given years of thought too. I can't give a short answer, and in fact have to say there is no single answer.

But I have a lot of ideas. My first response was a bit terse. In rereading it, I came off pretty pissed off, which I wasn't. Just had my hands full of 9 month old baby

But to the point you raise, I am of the opinion that government needs to change, and the current forms will have to be abolished for that to happen. I'm more an anarchist than a libertarian, though it was Rothbard that led me to anarchism. I do not have a great deal of time right now, so I'll just leave you some thinking points, because as I said, I don't have proven answers, just some strong suspicions (some backed by history, others by observation).

1. As you noted humans are selfish. This has to be factored into any system, coercive or not, or it will not work.

2. In a seeming contradiction, people can be quite generous, and often for reasons that appear to contradict #1. (in fact, it does not, but that's for later, as I'd like to see your responses first)

3. All current forms of government are predicated on ownership of people, whether admitted or not. ( a dictatorship is generally more honest than a democracy in that)

4. Libertarian and anarchist philosophy rail against three, but largely skate by 1 and magnify 2.

So, as I see it, there can be no ONE solution, but massive decentralization, with small communities who interact with each other on a case by case basis, and a general acceptance of the non aggression principle is a BEGINNING of a solution. That deals well with our social nature, but not AS well with our selfishness. Given that general acceptance is NOT universal acceptance, it is also necessary that a free society be well armed at the individual level. I've long said that philosophy aside, the first requisite of a free society is general armament. It prevents those who do bad things from doing them, and that includes would-be rulers.

At this point in history, talking about what can be is the best we have, but I think it quite probable that libertarians and anarchists could establish communities that become recognized as nations. It won't happen in the west for a long time, but it could happen in Africa, on uninhabited islands, a number of places even in Eastern Europe.

This is of course far from even a complete introduction to the things I've been thinking and talking about for the last 13 years, but to my mind you have raised the big question. As far as how to achieve such societies, I think the agorist attitude is proper.

Looking forward to your reply!

[BombaUcigasa]

Ive Never Met a Poor or Non-White Libertarian

So what you're saying is ... if you embrace libertarianism you become a filthy rich white, but if you don't you become a poor minority?!

I'm sold! Where do I sign up?!

[wenben]

I live below the poverty line and I am a libertarian. And I am Non-White.

[Spendulus]

....

C) I never said libertarians are selfish, I said human beings are selfish

....

Two things, there's nothing wrong with describing a basic existent human trait, and acknowledging it.  Humans are selfish. 

This is separate from imposing value judgements.  Selfish can be bad, if say in an isolated group of starving people one hoards the food.

Selfish can be good, too.  Usually this is the case.

Unselfish or "altruistic" has been hijacked by politicians and other manipulators who want to see you doing things for free for them. 

My suspicion of attempts to insult selfishness stems from the selfishness of those doing the insulting.

[Wilikon]

Like I said, you're just pushing your own beliefs onto somebody who was simply born into that situation, they don't owe you anything just for living.

Do they ever went to the hospital? Did they went to school? did they ever used a road? How about electricity? Water?

We are social animals and we have live in a society, there are many resources and infrastructure that are shared, directly or indirectly, by everyone and they do need to be paid for.

Like I said, there's no free lunch.

Fucking newborn babies not able to instantly teleport themselves out of tax slavery as soon as they leave the womb!

Correct.

lol nice, obey or die logic, too bad I never subscribe to that.

Well, it's not "obey or die", but one has a responsibility or duty to provide the next generations with the same or better opportunities that were given to us.

Even the Bitcoin protocol, the liberal/libertarian/anarchist wet dream isn't tax free, one has to pay fees in order to keep the system running...

So you mean one day the bitcoin tax people will shut down the speech they do not like on the network, just like the IRS?

[pedrog]

So you mean one day the bitcoin tax people will shut down the speech they do not like on the network, just like the IRS?

Don't know what you're talking about.

I just don't think freeloaders should be allowed to take advantage of public infrastructure and services, simply because they don't "believe in taxes."

[TheButterZone]

I don't think people should be forced to use public infrastructure and services, simply because tax whores won't allow competition.

[pedrog]

I don't think people should be forced to use public infrastructure and services, simply because tax whores won't allow competition.

How is that possible?

[Lethn]

I don't think people should be forced to use public infrastructure and services, simply because tax whores won't allow competition.

How is that possible?

Easy, by not being an asshole, oh wait I forgot! That's too difficult for some people!

[pedrog]

I don't think people should be forced to use public infrastructure and services, simply because tax whores won't allow competition.

How is that possible?

Easy, by not being an asshole, oh wait I forgot! That's too difficult for some people!

I mean, how is it possible for someone not to use any public services or infrastructure?

[Elwar]

People should go through their lives with the thought that if they can't take care of themselves someone else will be there to take care of them.

That should lead to some sound decision making.

To think that everyone else is selfish and that you need to take care of yourself will just lead to some sort of crazy self reliance that would be terrible for poor people.

Stay in school? Nah, there are unselfish people out there that will help me...school is too hard anyway.
Choose a major in English (which almost everyone speaks) instead of Engineering? If I don't find a job some unselfish person will get me through life...Engineering requires that hard math anyway.
Go get drunk with my friends instead of studying for that exam? My friends aren't selfish, they'll take care of me the rest of my life..the exam isn't important.
Get off my ass and look for a job? Nah, it's much easier to stay at home playing video games, some unselfish person out there will pay for my rent.

[Elwar]

I don't think people should be forced to use public infrastructure and services, simply because tax whores won't allow competition.

How is that possible?

Easy, by not being an asshole, oh wait I forgot! That's too difficult for some people!

I mean, how is it possible for someone not to use any public services or infrastructure?

They would be able to if there was competition. It is not their fault that the government monopolizes public services and infrastructure.