Stop using the term "weak hands"

[h4xx0r]

ok. how about structurally deficient hands instead? is this term scientific enough for ya?

[the joint]

they are losing money if they are holding btc.  

You only lose when you sell for less than you paid.

Nobody has ever lost money by holding.

Please stop with this already. It's an unrealized loss, which doesn't make it any less real.

unrealized... how do you know that it won't go up again? magic ass ball? that thing is true, but maybe the sentence is not completed, i repeat it here

until there is a chance to go up again, you won't lose anything if you just hold and don't sell for less than you paid

they are losing money if they are holding btc.  

You only lose when you sell for less than you paid.

Nobody has ever lost money by holding.

Are you literally stupid?

I mean literally, like IQ under 90?

Because you do realise what unrealised losses are?

Or not?

How dumb are you?

read above and tell me how much is your QI now, i think is lower than 90, probably the same number without the zero

A few things about this post:

1)  If you've been holding in a down market, then two bad things have happened to you.  First, you've lost purchasing power.  Second, you haven't even realized your loss so that you can write it off on your taxes this year.  It's a really bad habit to get into to try to pull all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to convince yourself that you're a good investor and you're making money when your position is continually losing ground.

2)  Saying "how do you know it won't go up again?" is a question that holds as much weight as "how do you know it won't keep going down?"  It means nothing.   There is no information to pull from it that can help you to make a rational decision.  Furthermore, there are no magic rules of investing that dictate an investment must appreciate after significant periods of depreciation.  

3)  This is more of a personal observation, but I really think that a lot of people's investment decisions are heavily influenced by discussions on this forum, and not in a good way.  I see a lot of permabulls and permabears, but it's shockingly uncommon to read posts that aren't emotionally loaded and don't veer to one extreme or the other.  For a lot of people, there is no middle ground.

4) "Until there is a chance to go up again..."?  What the hell?   I don't even know where to begin with this. *Every* moment is a chance for BTC to up again.  Where have you been the past 10-11 months?  Bitcoin isn't dropping in price due to chance, just as Bitcoin didn't shoot past $1000 USD by chance.  Focus on *real* things.  Instead of thinking about the "chance" that BTC might go up again, maybe you should first ask yourself why you aren't buying all the BTC you can right now.   It might be a good starting place as it may provide insight as to why everyone else isn't out buying up all the BTC.

5)  Here's a thought experiment for you:  How about you sell all of your belongings for BTC and hold them indefinitely?  According to your logic, this will preserve your wealth for infinite time (as long as you don't sell).  Ingenious, right?  

i'm in fact all in with btc(well not totally, i still have my house lol), i still think that in a market like this until you don't sell you can't lose, because the chance to see a pump again are high enough

you don't need a wall of text to explain this, it's so simple, and for your last sentence, i can just reply with "don't invest more than you can afford and bla bla", this doesn't make my point less valid at all

that quote is just misleading, it should be "until the coin isn't dead if you don't sell you don't lose anything", no one said that in that quote is implied that the coin can't die

If you can afford to do so and don't mind losing your investment, then that's fine.   But your reply, "Don't invest more than you can afford and bla bla," is irrelevant to the issue of gain or loss.  The question is whether holding in a down market yields a loss, not whether you're okay with it.

I think you're incorrect in that my last point doesn't make yours less valid.  It does, because it's the exact same action you took to reach your current position, only to an extreme degree.  

But seriously, dude, come on.   Even though unrealized gains/losses function the same way in stock trading, bitcoins are currency!  How are you going to sit there and tell me you haven't lost anything when you're holding money that's depreciating in value before your own eyes?!

well if you prefer i can tell you that i have less now because bitcoin declined , but it doesn't mean that i need to panic sell because of that, until i believe in it and i'm willing to hold my "lose" has a chance to come back

you know... "It's not dead until it's really dead"

All of that's fine, and I agree, it's just not what the issue originally was.  Just don't make the mistake of thinking that holding somehow makes you immune to changes in the price-per-unit of your investment.

actually it's exactly the issue because...

it make me kinda immune if the coin survive and go up, which is what i believe; we continuously base our life on some assumptions, this is why life is a gamble itself

it's not absolutely immue, i could agree, but it is certainly relative

Here's the thing: I think you're smart enough that you do understand unrealized gains and losses, but to me it seems that you are (likely without realizing it) sugar coating the issue by whatever means possible, and it does your analysis a disservice.

First, let me say that I truly do not care whether you buy or sell, and in fact I do hope you make good, profitable trading decisions for yourself.  All I'm suggesting is that you look at the way you're approaching the issue.

In your last post, you said, "It makes me kinda immune" and also "it's not absolutely immune" and also "certainly relative."  And then, you bring up assumptions as if to say that you are forced between two assumptions, that either the price will continue to fall, or it will go up.  And, since either is an unknown and it is an assumption, you feel comfortable in your position because for all you know it's just as good as the other one.

But what you're ignoring are the things that are knowable right now and that aren't assumptions.  It's not a matter of perspective what unrealized gains and losses mean for your total and liquid assets.  There is no ambiguity, only raw numbers.

I think you also know this too, but it just seems to me you're sacrificing what you know for what you don't.

[braum]

they are losing money if they are holding btc. 

You only lose when you sell for less than you paid.

Nobody has ever lost money by holding.

This post is so wrong it's not even funny.

All you need to do is look at Affymax inc. It's a company that started trading at $30.00 eight years ago. Now its shares are worth $0.14! It's basically worthless and will probably go bankrupt soon. Despite all that, you're telling me that the people who held that company's stocks didn't lose money because they didn't sell?

Read a finance book, man. You need it.

 

Its always a buy and sell, and sell once the word gets out.

[maker88]

Most people here have deluded themselves into thinking btc is going to skyrocket sue to "imminent mass adoption!"  Clearly this is not the case, and lots of former bulls are now facing the facts and turning bearish.  One of the ways people tell themselves they are right is saying anyone who sells is a "weak hand."  Funny because you should be calling them "smart hands."

I'll admit I had high hopes for btc, but the last bubble has no reason to repeat itself: There's no new money coming in from anywhere in the world, adoption by merchants just essentially creates lots of sell pressure, and the media is doing its job scaring people away from btc by associating it with illegal activity.

Good luck to holders though.

So is your suggestion to sell all the  bitcoin now ? I think this is not the real solution .   The price will  raise  (  I think)  in the next block reward halving ( 2016 ) .

I'm not trying to give anyone trading advice, but people here seem to think calling others "weak hands" somehow makes it ok that they are losing money if they are holding btc.  Obviously it has potential to rise, but there is no logical reason it would be soon.

so you think people who have unrealized losses, and solidify them based on fear that we will not ever recover from this obviously manipulation driven crash, are smart? i suppose if they sold in order to get more coins, yeah. but thats not what you're suggesting. you're implying bitcoin is dead and over with and everyone should get out. forgive us if we don't have the shortsightedness to guide our decisions that you utilize.

also, where do you get everyone thinks it will skyrocket "soon". "theres no reason for it to go up soon". why does it have to be soon? what makes you think people holding don't have a target date of 3-5 years? or more?

[Odalv]

Weak hands: TA traders, gamblers -> they have no problem to sell all bitcoins, they do not need understand Bitcoin, they trade on leverage, they are happy trading(b/c they know TA, EV) to make profit. Some of them are successful like Sxxxx <sarcasm>he makes 2x more than B&H</sarcasm> and some less successful  like MatTheCat.

Bitcoin strong hands: hodlers, fanatics believer -> they are rather sinking with the ship than do not have bitcoin or accept that bitcoin will die. They love bitcoin and believe they will be rich and/or get freedom.

[smoothie]

Most people here have deluded themselves into thinking btc is going to skyrocket sue to "imminent mass adoption!"  Clearly this is not the case, and lots of former bulls are now facing the facts and turning bearish.  One of the ways people tell themselves they are right is saying anyone who sells is a "weak hand."  Funny because you should be calling them "smart hands."

I'll admit I had high hopes for btc, but the last bubble has no reason to repeat itself: There's no new money coming in from anywhere in the world, adoption by merchants just essentially creates lots of sell pressure, and the media is doing its job scaring people away from btc by associating it with illegal activity.

Also, what happens if another exchange (maybe btc-e??) goes down.  BTC couldnt handle that.

Good luck to holders though.

Stop telling people what to do. Lol it is pointless.

[randrace]

Hmm thanks for being my sentiment gauge
Still not in full blown depression yet but getting closer
Mmm perhaps around 280

Haha, I'm with you freedom. Some real grumps in here.

[johnyj]

OP is weak hand, period

3 signs of weak hands:

1. Use fiat money to measure value
2. Do not understand fundamentals
3. Emotional, buy high and sell low

And No.3 is almost a sure sign of weak hands

[flailing Junk]

Only weak hands don't weak hands.

[Amph]

they are losing money if they are holding btc.  

You only lose when you sell for less than you paid.

Nobody has ever lost money by holding.

Please stop with this already. It's an unrealized loss, which doesn't make it any less real.

unrealized... how do you know that it won't go up again? magic ass ball? that thing is true, but maybe the sentence is not completed, i repeat it here

until there is a chance to go up again, you won't lose anything if you just hold and don't sell for less than you paid

they are losing money if they are holding btc.  

You only lose when you sell for less than you paid.

Nobody has ever lost money by holding.

Are you literally stupid?

I mean literally, like IQ under 90?

Because you do realise what unrealised losses are?

Or not?

How dumb are you?

read above and tell me how much is your QI now, i think is lower than 90, probably the same number without the zero

A few things about this post:

1)  If you've been holding in a down market, then two bad things have happened to you.  First, you've lost purchasing power.  Second, you haven't even realized your loss so that you can write it off on your taxes this year.  It's a really bad habit to get into to try to pull all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to convince yourself that you're a good investor and you're making money when your position is continually losing ground.

2)  Saying "how do you know it won't go up again?" is a question that holds as much weight as "how do you know it won't keep going down?"  It means nothing.   There is no information to pull from it that can help you to make a rational decision.  Furthermore, there are no magic rules of investing that dictate an investment must appreciate after significant periods of depreciation.  

3)  This is more of a personal observation, but I really think that a lot of people's investment decisions are heavily influenced by discussions on this forum, and not in a good way.  I see a lot of permabulls and permabears, but it's shockingly uncommon to read posts that aren't emotionally loaded and don't veer to one extreme or the other.  For a lot of people, there is no middle ground.

4) "Until there is a chance to go up again..."?  What the hell?   I don't even know where to begin with this. *Every* moment is a chance for BTC to up again.  Where have you been the past 10-11 months?  Bitcoin isn't dropping in price due to chance, just as Bitcoin didn't shoot past $1000 USD by chance.  Focus on *real* things.  Instead of thinking about the "chance" that BTC might go up again, maybe you should first ask yourself why you aren't buying all the BTC you can right now.   It might be a good starting place as it may provide insight as to why everyone else isn't out buying up all the BTC.

5)  Here's a thought experiment for you:  How about you sell all of your belongings for BTC and hold them indefinitely?  According to your logic, this will preserve your wealth for infinite time (as long as you don't sell).  Ingenious, right?  

i'm in fact all in with btc(well not totally, i still have my house lol), i still think that in a market like this until you don't sell you can't lose, because the chance to see a pump again are high enough

you don't need a wall of text to explain this, it's so simple, and for your last sentence, i can just reply with "don't invest more than you can afford and bla bla", this doesn't make my point less valid at all

that quote is just misleading, it should be "until the coin isn't dead if you don't sell you don't lose anything", no one said that in that quote is implied that the coin can't die

If you can afford to do so and don't mind losing your investment, then that's fine.   But your reply, "Don't invest more than you can afford and bla bla," is irrelevant to the issue of gain or loss.  The question is whether holding in a down market yields a loss, not whether you're okay with it.

I think you're incorrect in that my last point doesn't make yours less valid.  It does, because it's the exact same action you took to reach your current position, only to an extreme degree.  

But seriously, dude, come on.   Even though unrealized gains/losses function the same way in stock trading, bitcoins are currency!  How are you going to sit there and tell me you haven't lost anything when you're holding money that's depreciating in value before your own eyes?!

well if you prefer i can tell you that i have less now because bitcoin declined , but it doesn't mean that i need to panic sell because of that, until i believe in it and i'm willing to hold my "lose" has a chance to come back

you know... "It's not dead until it's really dead"

All of that's fine, and I agree, it's just not what the issue originally was.  Just don't make the mistake of thinking that holding somehow makes you immune to changes in the price-per-unit of your investment.

actually it's exactly the issue because...

it make me kinda immune if the coin survive and go up, which is what i believe; we continuously base our life on some assumptions, this is why life is a gamble itself

it's not absolutely immue, i could agree, but it is certainly relative

Here's the thing: I think you're smart enough that you do understand unrealized gains and losses, but to me it seems that you are (likely without realizing it) sugar coating the issue by whatever means possible, and it does your analysis a disservice.

First, let me say that I truly do not care whether you buy or sell, and in fact I do hope you make good, profitable trading decisions for yourself.  All I'm suggesting is that you look at the way you're approaching the issue.

In your last post, you said, "It makes me kinda immune" and also "it's not absolutely immune" and also "certainly relative."  And then, you bring up assumptions as if to say that you are forced between two assumptions, that either the price will continue to fall, or it will go up.  And, since either is an unknown and it is an assumption, you feel comfortable in your position because for all you know it's just as good as the other one.

But what you're ignoring are the things that are knowable right now and that aren't assumptions.  It's not a matter of perspective what unrealized gains and losses mean for your total and liquid assets.  There is no ambiguity, only raw numbers.

I think you also know this too, but it just seems to me you're sacrificing what you know for what you don't.

i think you are not following me correctly

i'm not saying that there isn't a possibility that bitcoin won't die, i'm just saying that for now this possibility is zero, therefore holding is the best strategy, this imply that unti you don't sell at loss, you are not losing everything

there aren't things like "100% holding is bad or 100% selling is bad", you should just follow what you believe in a market like this

[Bobsurplus]

Most people here have deluded themselves into thinking btc is going to skyrocket sue to "imminent mass adoption!"  Clearly this is not the case, and lots of former bulls are now facing the facts and turning bearish.  One of the ways people tell themselves they are right is saying anyone who sells is a "weak hand."  Funny because you should be calling them "smart hands."

I'll admit I had high hopes for btc, but the last bubble has no reason to repeat itself: There's no new money coming in from anywhere in the world, adoption by merchants just essentially creates lots of sell pressure, and the media is doing its job scaring people away from btc by associating it with illegal activity.

Also, what happens if another exchange (maybe btc-e??) goes down.  BTC couldnt handle that.

Good luck to holders though.

You're a MASSIVE fail. How the fuck did you even figure out how to get on the internet?? Weak hands they are! No other words to call them. Smart hands are buying and holding. Most people in the world think about long term. "Where am I going to be in" 5 years, 10 years, 20 years. The smart hands are those people who think big and long. You're a weak hand looking for a quick buck. And like so many before you and many to come the bitcoin game slaughtered you.

So sad... Maybe you should give Forex a go at it.

#ToTheMoon

[jcoin200]

Most people here have deluded themselves into thinking btc is going to skyrocket sue to "imminent mass adoption!"  Clearly this is not the case, and lots of former bulls are now facing the facts and turning bearish.  One of the ways people tell themselves they are right is saying anyone who sells is a "weak hand."  Funny because you should be calling them "smart hands."

I'll admit I had high hopes for btc, but the last bubble has no reason to repeat itself: There's no new money coming in from anywhere in the world, adoption by merchants just essentially creates lots of sell pressure, and the media is doing its job scaring people away from btc by associating it with illegal activity.

Also, what happens if another exchange (maybe btc-e??) goes down.  BTC couldnt handle that.

Good luck to holders though.

You're a MASSIVE fail. How the fuck did you even figure out how to get on the internet?? Weak hands they are! No other words to call them. Smart hands are buying and holding. Most people in the world think about long term. "Where am I going to be in" 5 years, 10 years, 20 years. The smart hands are those people who think big and long. You're a weak hand looking for a quick buck. And like so many before you and many to come the bitcoin game slaughtered you.

So sad... Maybe you should give Forex a go at it.

#ToTheMoon

Well, not even close, but good try!  Smart hands made money on the up swings, like I did, and got out at the signs of trouble, like I did.

Never did I say btc was going away, but short term there is no indications at all of price increase.

And yeah I guess I wasn't thinking long term when I got a college degree, invested in real estate...jeez I should just beg you for advice...oh wait your just another idiot whos upset they are losing more money, and you try to make yourself feel better by saying your a strong hand. 

[ravenjt]

How does holding an asset during a decline in its real purchasing power terms by 70% represent having a 'strong' hand?
All it represents is losing money.
A 'clever' hand would have sold up at the beginning of the year, and would now be buying up BTC.
A 'clever' hand would have three times more BTC than a 'strong' hand.
Three times!
Do you mean 'strong' as in 'dense'?

[jcoin200]

How does holding an asset during a decline in its real purchasing power terms by 70% represent having a 'strong' hand?
All it represents is losing money.
A 'clever' hand would have sold up at the beginning of the year, and would now be buying up BTC.
A 'clever' hand would have three times more BTC than a 'strong' hand.
Three times!
Do you mean 'strong' as in 'dense'?

Clearly people seem to think they are superior to others on here if they hold, instead of getting out and waiting for the real rock bottom to hit, which is what the real smart money would be doing.  Also waiting for any signs of life, and waiting for fraudulent trading activities to be uncovered.  There is too much still going on to not think btc can crash further down to $100 or less.  Then smart money will come in when the dust has settled.

[madken7777]

How does holding an asset during a decline in its real purchasing power terms by 70% represent having a 'strong' hand?
All it represents is losing money.
A 'clever' hand would have sold up at the beginning of the year, and would now be buying up BTC.
A 'clever' hand would have three times more BTC than a 'strong' hand.
Three times!
Do you mean 'strong' as in 'dense'?

If you notice, most users on speculators section are fairly  new accounts and probably do not know what they are doing.

[piramida]

How does holding an asset during a decline in its real purchasing power terms by 70% represent having a 'strong' hand?
All it represents is losing money.
A 'clever' hand would have sold up at the beginning of the year, and would now be buying up BTC.
A 'clever' hand would have three times more BTC than a 'strong' hand.
Three times!
Do you mean 'strong' as in 'dense'?

Strong as in have money to live on to be able to afford not to gamble. Strong as in does not care much about immediate prices, has many years long outlook, considers everything smaller as noise.

PS Granted, I'm not strong enough myself since I sell a little at peaks and buy at bottoms, but the ultimate goal is to reduce that gambling percentage of holdings to zero. I now gamble with about 20%. More may be acceptable if you don't have much. Selling all then buying all seems plain crazy to me. It can maximize profit, sure; it can also lead to losing all, as in: exchange goes away, exchange ratio goes against you several times, moving large amounts of coins you attract unwanted attention and get hacked, etc.

I hope you now do understand a little better, what is, actually, clever. Gambling is fun, but far from clever.

As for weak hands, these are hands which sell or buy on emotion, while being scared or greedy. They always lose.

[maker88]

How does holding an asset during a decline in its real purchasing power terms by 70% represent having a 'strong' hand?
All it represents is losing money.
A 'clever' hand would have sold up at the beginning of the year, and would now be buying up BTC.
A 'clever' hand would have three times more BTC than a 'strong' hand.
Three times!
Do you mean 'strong' as in 'dense'?

Clearly people seem to think they are superior to others on here if they hold, instead of getting out and waiting for the real rock bottom to hit, which is what the real smart money would be doing.  Also waiting for any signs of life, and waiting for fraudulent trading activities to be uncovered.  There is too much still going on to not think btc can crash further down to $100 or less.  Then smart money will come in when the dust has settled.

Now you're advocating attempting to catch a knife? Brilliant...

[mmortal03]

How does holding an asset during a decline in its real purchasing power terms by 70% represent having a 'strong' hand?
All it represents is losing money.
A 'clever' hand would have sold up at the beginning of the year, and would now be buying up BTC.
A 'clever' hand would have three times more BTC than a 'strong' hand.
Three times!
Do you mean 'strong' as in 'dense'?

If you want to be clever and try to time the market, more power to you. One of the arguments for dollar cost averaging and long term holding is that you can spend your time on other things instead of having to pay so much attention to the short term price.

[traderCJ]

Most people here have deluded themselves into thinking btc is going to skyrocket sue to "imminent mass adoption!"  Clearly this is not the case, and lots of former bulls are now facing the facts and turning bearish.  One of the ways people tell themselves they are right is saying anyone who sells is a "weak hand."  Funny because you should be calling them "smart hands."

I'll admit I had high hopes for btc, but the last bubble has no reason to repeat itself: There's no new money coming in from anywhere in the world, adoption by merchants just essentially creates lots of sell pressure, and the media is doing its job scaring people away from btc by associating it with illegal activity.

Also, what happens if another exchange (maybe btc-e??) goes down.  BTC couldnt handle that.

Good luck to holders though.

It's cult behavior, unfortunately.  You're either in or out, and if you're out, you're a scumbag.  But the reality is that those "weak hands" made a killing selling when the selling was good.  So, I'd like to take a moment and thank all the "strong hands" out there.  

Also, who would have thought that as we near the conclusion of 2014, BTC would be hovering around $300 USD?

[the joint]

How does holding an asset during a decline in its real purchasing power terms by 70% represent having a 'strong' hand?
All it represents is losing money.
A 'clever' hand would have sold up at the beginning of the year, and would now be buying up BTC.
A 'clever' hand would have three times more BTC than a 'strong' hand.
Three times!
Do you mean 'strong' as in 'dense'?

Clearly people seem to think they are superior to others on here if they hold, instead of getting out and waiting for the real rock bottom to hit, which is what the real smart money would be doing.  Also waiting for any signs of life, and waiting for fraudulent trading activities to be uncovered.  There is too much still going on to not think btc can crash further down to $100 or less.  Then smart money will come in when the dust has settled.

Now you're advocating attempting to catch a knife? Brilliant...

That doesn't sound at all like what he's advocating.  I think he's advocating for letting the knife fall and watching to see how it lands first.