why do people agree to pay taxes?

[Romanul]

"You don't pay taxes , taxes are taken away from you."

I forgot who said it but it sums it up perfectly.

[bitdraw]

why not?

[worle1bm]

Because taxes fund the pretty amazing standard of living that we experience today. Folks on the internet like to compare our living standard to some subjective perfect standard they have in their mind, rather than historical standards. Taxes pay for, and have paid for, an incredible explosion in infrastructure, education, medicine, and subsidies to the sciences that have given us things like this here internet.

It's not popular in this community to say so, but taxes fund things I want and need.

[Romanul]

Why would you assume we get those things because we pay taxes? By your logic if we paid 100% we'd be in Star Trek by now. Heck we even saw first hand what a government run system looks like ( USSR and its satellites states) and it ain't pretty.

[halfawake]

Why would you assume we get those things because we pay taxes? By your logic if we paid 100% we'd be in Star Trek by now. Heck we even saw first hand what a government run system looks like ( USSR and its satellites states) and it ain't pretty.

You do realize that the internet that we're using to carry out with this discussion was created by a United States taxpayer funded program, right?  It's no Star Trek, but let's face it, reality isn't as quick as science fiction.

Don't get me wrong, I live in the United States and I don't like a lot of things taxes pay for, like wars.  I'd love to be able to dictate precisely where my tax dollars went, but unfortunately, I don't have that luxury.  My point is that while it's not the most efficient way of creating things, government programs have created some pretty awesome things.

[worle1bm]

Why would you assume we get those things because we pay taxes? By your logic if we paid 100% we'd be in Star Trek by now. Heck we even saw first hand what a government run system looks like ( USSR and its satellites states) and it ain't pretty.

Why would I assume taxes fund those things? Well, because you can look up my state and national government budgets and see where the allocations go. I've also been involved in two foundations that got federal grants via taxes for scientific research.

Would we be in Star Trek? No, that's pretty silly, and that's what you're saying, not me. That's called creating a strawman. A "government run situation" is equivalent to paying taxes? That's what you're saying, again, not me. You've either misquoted, intentionally misunderstood, or ignored what I said because you don't like it.

[Robert Paulson]

the internet was not created by the government, all the routers and switches that makeup the backbone of the internet were created by private companies.
all the hosting infrastructure was created by private companies.
pretty much anything you'd like to use on the internet was created by a private company.

the government doesn't create anything.
it is a useless middle man that uses its monopoly on force to steal money from the working population and buy stuff from the private sector (that actually makes stuff) because a bunch of people in the government decided they know best the needs of millions of people and can allocate that money better.

[worle1bm]

the internet was not created by the government, all the routers and switches that makeup the backbone of the internet were created by private companies.
all the hosting infrastructure was created by private companies.
pretty much anything you'd like to use on the internet was created by a private company.

the government doesn't create anything.
it is a useless middle man that uses its monopoly on force to steal money from the working population and buy stuff from the private sector (that actually makes stuff) because a bunch of people in the government decided they know best the needs of millions of people and can allocate that money better.

I think you should Google what the "internet' began life as haha. After Arpanet, the NSF funded a lot of the research than went into networking technology, data storage and transmission, hardware and architecture, and on and on. Surprise! It wasn't a bunch of well-meaning private companies, it was also a lot of well-meaning scientists across lots of organizations and schools using federal money.

The fabled "working population" that the big bad government is stealing from is also the group that reaps the most benefit from taxes. Again, it goes back to standard of living. Internet people like to apply ideology and perfect imaginary standards because it is easy to do so behind a keyboard. In practicality, bus subsidies, pre-k education, daycare for young parents, GED/AS programs, food subsides, cheap government backed loans for college and mortgages, and lots more contribute to a standard of living that is truly the best in the history of humanity. It's easy to poke holes "but mortgages collapsed" and "food stamps are abused" and I get it, there is no perfect system. But that's really my point; there is no perfect system. The utopian internet capitalistic society is just a fabrication that Bitcoin kiddies scream about from behind a screen.

[Robert Paulson]

the internet was not created by the government, all the routers and switches that makeup the backbone of the internet were created by private companies.
all the hosting infrastructure was created by private companies.
pretty much anything you'd like to use on the internet was created by a private company.

the government doesn't create anything.
it is a useless middle man that uses its monopoly on force to steal money from the working population and buy stuff from the private sector (that actually makes stuff) because a bunch of people in the government decided they know best the needs of millions of people and can allocate that money better.

I think you should Google what the "internet' began life as haha. After Arpanet, the NSF funded a lot of the research than went into networking technology, data storage and transmission, hardware and architecture, and on and on. Surprise! It wasn't a bunch of well-meaning private companies, it was also a lot of well-meaning scientists across lots of organizations and schools using federal money.

The fabled "working population" that the big bad government is stealing from is also the group that reaps the most benefit from taxes. Again, it goes back to standard of living. Internet people like to apply ideology and perfect imaginary standards because it is easy to do so behind a keyboard. In practicality, bus subsidies, pre-k education, daycare for young parents, GED/AS programs, food subsides, cheap government backed loans for college and mortgages, and lots more contribute to a standard of living that is truly the best in the history of humanity. It's easy to poke holes "but mortgages collapsed" and "food stamps are abused" and I get it, there is no perfect system. But that's really my point; there is no perfect system. The utopian internet capitalistic society is just a fabrication that Bitcoin kiddies scream about from behind a screen.

arpanet was not the only packet switched network, the idea existed in multiple places back then and would have been developed anyway, government money or not.
what made the internet truly great are the services on top of it, what good is a network if you have no websites or services running on it, all of which were created by private companies.

bus subsidies, pre-k education, daycare for young parents, GED/AS programs, food subsides, cheap government backed loans for college and mortgages - have to be paid for somehow.

the government has no money of its own, it only has what it takes from the citizens.

having the government rob Bob to help Joe is called central planning, and has proven time and time again to fail.
the most extreme example is North Korea, where everything is provided by the government.

that standard of living you are talking about was created by the private sector, back when the west had free markets without the government printing a trillion dollars to bailout failed businesses.
and without a minimum wage, basically almost zero regulation on business, thats when the wealth we are destroying today was built.

[worle1bm]

arpanet was not the only packet switched network, the idea existed in multiple places back then and would have been developed anyway, government money or not.

Source?

what made the internet truly great are the services on top of it, what good is a network if you have no websites or services running on it, all of which were created by private companies.

That's entirely subjective and opinion based, and source for "all of which were created by private companies"?

that standard of living you are talking about was created by the private sector, back when the west had free markets without the government printing a trillion dollars to bailout failed businesses.

Back when the West had free markets? Hahaha, when was this magical time exactly?

and without a minimum wage, basically almost zero regulation on business, thats when the wealth we are destroying today was built.

Again, when was this?

[Robert Paulson]

arpanet was not the only packet switched network, the idea existed in multiple places back then and would have been developed anyway, government money or not.

Source?

the French had their own network
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYCLADES

The academy was already working on packet switching before ARPANET even existed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Kleinrock

A computer science professor at UCLA's Henry Samueli School of Engineering and Applied Science, he made several important contributions to the field of computer networking, in particular to the theoretical side of computer networking. He also played an important role in the development of the ARPANET, the precursor to the Internet, at UCLA.

in particular his phd work "Information Flow in Large Communication Nets" was published on May 1961, 8 years before ARPANET.

what made the internet truly great are the services on top of it, what good is a network if you have no websites or services running on it, all of which were created by private companies.

That's entirely subjective and opinion based, and source for "all of which were created by private companies"?

Google, Facebook, Youtube, all top 10 of the most popular websites on the internet were made by private companies.

that standard of living you are talking about was created by the private sector, back when the west had free markets without the government printing a trillion dollars to bailout failed businesses.

Back when the West had free markets? Hahaha, when was this magical time exactly?

in America before the fed was created in 1913.
the situation started to deteriorate from then until in 1971 America completely defaulted on its promise to redeem dollars for gold and started to print huge amounts of money effectively manipulating the money markets.

and without a minimum wage, basically almost zero regulation on business, thats when the wealth we are destroying today was built.

Again, when was this?

the first attempt in America to establish a minimum wage was in 1933, back then the supreme court actually declared it to be unconstitutional.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States#Prior_U.S._minimum_wages_laws

The first attempt at establishing a national minimum wage came in 1933, when a $0.25 per hour standard was set as part of the National Industrial Recovery Act. However, in the 1935 court case Schechter Poultry Corp. v. United States (295 U.S. 495), the United States Supreme Court declared the act unconstitutional, and the minimum wage was abolished.

only in 1938 did the government finally manage to bend the constitution over and enact this socialist law.
making it illegal for you to work if your labor is worth less than the minimum.

[worle1bm]

arpanet was not the only packet switched network, the idea existed in multiple places back then and would have been developed anyway, government money or not.

Source?

the French had their own network
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYCLADES

The academy was already working on packet switching before ARPANET even existed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Kleinrock

A computer science professor at UCLA's Henry Samueli School of Engineering and Applied Science, he made several important contributions to the field of computer networking, in particular to the theoretical side of computer networking. He also played an important role in the development of the ARPANET, the precursor to the Internet, at UCLA.

in particular his phd work "Information Flow in Large Communication Nets" was published on May 1961, 8 years before ARPANET.

Did you even read your sources? All of this research was funded through either the government or through public universities haha, that's exactly what I said.

Google, Facebook, Youtube, all top 10 of the most popular websites on the internet were made by private companies.

So you really have no idea, you're just throwing things out and hoping they stick.

in America before the fed was created in 1913.
the situation started to deteriorate from then until in 1971 America completely defaulted on its promise to redeem dollars for gold and started to print huge amounts of money effectively manipulating the money markets.

You mean the time period when workers were exploited using incredibly unfair labor practices *cough* slavery, the government allowed monopolies because many elections were essentially bought, and we had literal legal slavery? When large firms, to avoid competition, would kill opponents to seize land and property in the West, abuse their political connections to strong arm small firms or landowners, and indentured servitude was the norm for thousands of immigrants? This is your golden age of American existence?

the first attempt in America to establish a minimum wage was in 1933, back then the supreme court actually declared it to be unconstitutional.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States#Prior_U.S._minimum_wages_laws

The first attempt at establishing a national minimum wage came in 1933, when a $0.25 per hour standard was set as part of the National Industrial Recovery Act. However, in the 1935 court case Schechter Poultry Corp. v. United States (295 U.S. 495), the United States Supreme Court declared the act unconstitutional, and the minimum wage was abolished.

only in 1938 did the government finally manage to bend the constitution over and enact this socialist law.
making it illegal for you to work if your labor is worth less than the minimum.

Yeah, they didn't bend the Constitution, they utilized the Commerce Clause iirc to establish the right to regulate employment. This helped lead to the enormous rise in living standards we've seen this century, and the creation of the middle class. I know you've read a lot of things on the interwebs, and everyone screams enough anarcho-capitalist stuff that you believe it, but it isn't accurate just because you've seen or read a large amount of it.

[NiceSoft12]

government is good, taxes are good. Declining government is not good, and misuse is not good.

[Robert Paulson]

a student writing a phd thesis on packet switched networks is not funded by the government.
even if the government did fund this research it doesn't matter, the government has no money of its own, it simply gave those institutions some of the tax money it stole from them back.
they would have been much better off if the government didn't exist and they could keep all of their income instead of being forced to pay taxes.

i gave you examples of the most popular services on the internet and shown you they are all being run by private companies.
i bet you can't give me one example of a government service on the internet anyone would want to use and yet you claim the government created the internet.
clearly your the one who has no idea.

you look at America before 1913 as if all it had was slavery and corruption.
you completely ignore that it was then that the American empire was created,
money was honest and backed by gold, banks couldn't manipulate the interest rate and print unlimited supplies of it and get away with it like they do today.
there was no minimum wage, you could get a job even if your labor was worth very little, learn a trade and climb the corporate ladder, production efficiency was high.
there was no income tax, you could keep almost all of your hard labor.
despite of production costs back then being much higher due to old technology a family could live on one paycheck, something that is impossible for a median family today.

the standard of living has risen due to technological improvements and despite the minimum wage not because of it.
it is the reason why nothing is produced in America anymore and why America owes trillions to China.
it is the reason why the unemployed college graduates can't get a job, their labor is worth less than the minimum wage and no one will hire them, this prevents them from getting their foot at the door, learning the trade and climbing the corporate ladder.

[twiifm]

a student writing a phd thesis on packet switched networks is not funded by the government.
even if the government did fund this research it doesn't matter, the government has no money of its own, it simply gave those institutions some of the tax money it stole from them back.
they would have been much better off if the government didn't exist and they could keep all of their income instead of being forced to pay taxes.

i gave you examples of the most popular services on the internet and shown you they are all being run by private companies.

i bet you can't give me one example of a government service on the internet anyone would want to use and yet you claim the government created the internet.
clearly your the one who has no idea.

Its is a fact that tcp/ip was funded w govt grant

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/07/23/yes-government-researchers-really-did-invent-the-internet/

Google search was originally funded a grant from National Science Foundation

Tesla received $465M loan from Dept of Energy.

There is a lot of innovation that has been funded by govt.  But the point isn't about misuse of taxes its about how the gov't socialize venture risk and dorsnt get rewards.  Instead of paying taxes here companies like Google hides in offshore tax havens

[Robert Paulson]

a student writing a phd thesis on packet switched networks is not funded by the government.
even if the government did fund this research it doesn't matter, the government has no money of its own, it simply gave those institutions some of the tax money it stole from them back.
they would have been much better off if the government didn't exist and they could keep all of their income instead of being forced to pay taxes.

i gave you examples of the most popular services on the internet and shown you they are all being run by private companies.

i bet you can't give me one example of a government service on the internet anyone would want to use and yet you claim the government created the internet.
clearly your the one who has no idea.

Its is a fact that tcp/ip was funded w govt grant

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/07/23/yes-government-researchers-really-did-invent-the-internet/

and its a fact the government has no money of its own, only what it steals from the population.
any government grant is nothing more then giving back to the victim what was stolen from him in the first place.

[worle1bm]

you look at America before 1913 as if all it had was slavery and corruption.
you completely ignore that it was then that the American empire was created,
money was honest and backed by gold, banks couldn't manipulate the interest rate and print unlimited supplies of it and get away with it like they do today.
there was no minimum wage, you could get a job even if your labor was worth very little, learn a trade and climb the corporate ladder, production efficiency was high.
there was no income tax, you could keep almost all of your hard labor.
despite of production costs back then being much higher due to old technology a family could live on one paycheck, something that is impossible for a median family today.

You're ignoring incredible suffering and inequality for a few anecdotes of idealistic thinking. How amazingly void of usefulness. That and your statements are basically just made up things you think are good points.

the standard of living has risen due to technological improvements and despite the minimum wage not because of it.
it is the reason why nothing is produced in America anymore and why America owes trillions to China.
it is the reason why the unemployed college graduates can't get a job, their labor is worth less than the minimum wage and no one will hire them, this prevents them from getting their foot at the door, learning the trade and climbing the corporate ladder.

These are overly dramatic statements that really don't say anything. This hyperbole is great for rabble rousing, and poor at anything else. If you want to be taken seriously, talk like a reasonable adult and think like a reasonably education adult. This crap is just that...crap.

[Robert Paulson]

you look at America before 1913 as if all it had was slavery and corruption.
you completely ignore that it was then that the American empire was created,
money was honest and backed by gold, banks couldn't manipulate the interest rate and print unlimited supplies of it and get away with it like they do today.
there was no minimum wage, you could get a job even if your labor was worth very little, learn a trade and climb the corporate ladder, production efficiency was high.
there was no income tax, you could keep almost all of your hard labor.
despite of production costs back then being much higher due to old technology a family could live on one paycheck, something that is impossible for a median family today.

You're ignoring incredible suffering and inequality for a few anecdotes of idealistic thinking. How amazingly void of usefulness. That and your statements are basically just made up things you think are good points.

the standard of living has risen due to technological improvements and despite the minimum wage not because of it.
it is the reason why nothing is produced in America anymore and why America owes trillions to China.
it is the reason why the unemployed college graduates can't get a job, their labor is worth less than the minimum wage and no one will hire them, this prevents them from getting their foot at the door, learning the trade and climbing the corporate ladder.

These are overly dramatic statements that really don't say anything. This hyperbole is great for rabble rousing, and poor at anything else. If you want to be taken seriously, talk like a reasonable adult and think like a reasonably education adult. This crap is just that...crap.

those are cold hard facts.
i don't get it, if you like being taken care by the government so much why not move to the socialist heaven of North Korea.

[twiifm]

a student writing a phd thesis on packet switched networks is not funded by the government.
even if the government did fund this research it doesn't matter, the government has no money of its own, it simply gave those institutions some of the tax money it stole from them back.
they would have been much better off if the government didn't exist and they could keep all of their income instead of being forced to pay taxes.

i gave you examples of the most popular services on the internet and shown you they are all being run by private companies.

i bet you can't give me one example of a government service on the internet anyone would want to use and yet you claim the government created the internet.
clearly your the one who has no idea.

Its is a fact that tcp/ip was funded w govt grant

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/07/23/yes-government-researchers-really-did-invent-the-internet/

and its a fact the government has no money of its own, only what it steals from the population.
any government grant is nothing more then giving back to the victim what was stolen from him in the first place.

No its more like gov't use your tax dollars to fund research for companies like Google.  Then when they succeed they offshore employment and dodge taxes.

[Robert Paulson]

a student writing a phd thesis on packet switched networks is not funded by the government.
even if the government did fund this research it doesn't matter, the government has no money of its own, it simply gave those institutions some of the tax money it stole from them back.
they would have been much better off if the government didn't exist and they could keep all of their income instead of being forced to pay taxes.

i gave you examples of the most popular services on the internet and shown you they are all being run by private companies.

i bet you can't give me one example of a government service on the internet anyone would want to use and yet you claim the government created the internet.
clearly your the one who has no idea.

Its is a fact that tcp/ip was funded w govt grant

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/07/23/yes-government-researchers-really-did-invent-the-internet/

and its a fact the government has no money of its own, only what it steals from the population.
any government grant is nothing more then giving back to the victim what was stolen from him in the first place.

No its more like gov't use your tax dollars to fund research for companies like Google.  Then when they succeed they offshore employment and dodge taxes.

right, so now the government funded research for Google.
and Google (who of course asked to be funded) owes the government its protection money, is that how it works?

how about the government doesn't fund anyone with my money.
if ill want to fund research you know what I'll do? ill just send that money to the university and fund it myself, what right does anyone have to steal my money and use it to fund some stuff they decided i need.