[CLOSING...] MOVETO.FUND - MoveTo Growth Fund

[matthewh3]

RSM - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63257.0 - just needs to sell ~250 shares @BTC0.30 each to be operating at 48(MH/s)per share on delivery of our ASIC's.  I know were not issuing dividends until we receive the hardware but that's a better (MH/s)per share rate then most if not all our competitors.  Were planning on issuing 300 new shares on Monday at BTC0.30 each to take us to >51.6(MH/s)per share.  Although if we can shift another ~1400 shares at BTC0.30 we would be operating at >54(MH/s)per share or 1(GH/s)@<BTC5.55.  Just thought I'd let you know.  We've been operating over seven months now and I know Nefario personally. 

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[cytokine]

Damn, our first big draw-down due to some major selling across the board on the GLBSE. All of this is related to the fallout from BS&T's default no doubt: my guess is that people are mass selling in order to meet creditor demands.

However, since a lot of issues are now trading significantly below their face value, it does appear that we could eventually have a nice snap-back rally when things finally recover. For now, it's good to get the pain over with, even though it's unpleasant.

NAV per share updated to 1.08576037

(BTW, I'm using the 5-day average price for each asset now instead of the last-trading price when calculating the NAV per share. This is how we're doing it from now on as per the FAQ.)

[bitcoinBull]

You were all warned that exactly this would happen. But instead of keeping the bitcoin safe in the blockchain, refused to believe it and chose to do absolutely nothing. Just kept waiting and waiting, until it was gone. How is that commendable?

Bullshit.  cytokine and the investors in this fund (myself included) were very aware of the pirate risk and did everything possible to avoid exposure. Keeping bitcoin safe in the blockchain? really?  So instead of growing the economy and supporting bitcoin businesses we're supposed to hoard it all away where it does nothing but sit there?  The problem so far has been fraudulent activities by trusted members, not people wanting to support the fledgling economy and willing to take some risk. 

very aware of the pirate risk? I have quotes of cytokine saying a pirate default was "highly unlikely". He did everything he could to stay in denial because the returns were Too Good To Be True.

Furthermore, giving away your bitcoin to HYIP scammers is not "growing the economy" nor "supporting bitcoin businesses", unlikely you call ponzi scamming a business. Unless you do due diligence and invest in *real* projects, not "arbitrage" and "mining farms". Maybe when so-called investors stop being so willing to get scammed, it will be worthwhile for entrepreneurs to start actual businesses instead of more HYIP funds.
 

[silverfuture]

You were all warned that exactly this would happen. But instead of keeping the bitcoin safe in the blockchain, refused to believe it and chose to do absolutely nothing. Just kept waiting and waiting, until it was gone. How is that commendable?

Bullshit.  cytokine and the investors in this fund (myself included) were very aware of the pirate risk and did everything possible to avoid exposure. Keeping bitcoin safe in the blockchain? really?  So instead of growing the economy and supporting bitcoin businesses we're supposed to hoard it all away where it does nothing but sit there?  The problem so far has been fraudulent activities by trusted members, not people wanting to support the fledgling economy and willing to take some risk.  

very aware of the pirate risk? I have quotes of cytokine saying a pirate default was "highly unlikely". He did everything he could to stay in denial because the returns were Too Good To Be True.

What are NON-goals for the fund?
(1) excessive risk taking for those chasing high return
(2) To consider IPO shares of unestablished issuers. If you're interested in playing the IPO game, then you should invest elsewhere. However, despite this, we will likely have indirect exposure to IPOs since we do consider other funds (i.e. we are a fund-of-funds when it makes sense) which may themselves specialize and invest in IPOs.
(3) rapid and frequent withdrawals or deposits
(4) to be an "income" fund - if you want current income, then buy bonds. MOVETO.FUND is a growth fund, not an income fund.
(5) to be a "passthrough" for pirate. The fund will not knowingly expose itself to any pirate default risk.
What is the current share contract?
See here.

Please post any other questions you have here and I will amend the FAQ as necessary.

[silverfuture]

Furthermore, giving away your bitcoin to HYIP scammers is not "growing the economy" nor "supporting bitcoin businesses", unlikely you call ponzi scamming a business. Unless you do due diligence and invest in *real* projects, not "arbitrage" and "mining farms". Maybe when so-called investors stop being so willing to get scammed, it will be worthwhile for entrepreneurs to start actual businesses instead of more HYIP funds.
 

I agree mostly but I'm pretty sure mining bitcoin is a real business in any rational sense of the word. Granted that fixed m/hash bonds seem pretty useless in an environment of rapid difficulty increase and evolving technology like we've seen recently.  What "real" business" do you invest in? or do you just leave it in the blockchain?

[cytokine]

You were all warned that exactly this would happen. But instead of keeping the bitcoin safe in the blockchain, refused to believe it and chose to do absolutely nothing. Just kept waiting and waiting, until it was gone. How is that commendable?

Bullshit.  cytokine and the investors in this fund (myself included) were very aware of the pirate risk and did everything possible to avoid exposure. Keeping bitcoin safe in the blockchain? really?  So instead of growing the economy and supporting bitcoin businesses we're supposed to hoard it all away where it does nothing but sit there?  The problem so far has been fraudulent activities by trusted members, not people wanting to support the fledgling economy and willing to take some risk. 

very aware of the pirate risk? I have quotes of cytokine saying a pirate default was "highly unlikely". He did everything he could to stay in denial because the returns were Too Good To Be True.

Furthermore, giving away your bitcoin to HYIP scammers is not "growing the economy" nor "supporting bitcoin businesses", unlikely you call ponzi scamming a business. Unless you do due diligence and invest in *real* projects, not "arbitrage" and "mining farms". Maybe when so-called investors stop being so willing to get scammed, it will be worthwhile for entrepreneurs to start actual businesses instead of more HYIP funds.
 

My investors have no pirate exposure, nor have they ever had pirate exposure to my knowledge. The Nick Razze deposit is a special case because he was dishonest with all of his depositors, but it does appear that we will ultimately be getting our money back. While I am not at all happy with how things are going this month, I believe we are doing surprisingly well on a relative basis considering many other people have been completely ruined, directly or indirectly, by the pirate default. We have survived it, which I am very happy with. As long as we can get through this difficult period of drawdown, I have no doubts about our future growth prospects.

It is true that I did not believe pirate to be a HYIP since his business model appeared to be the high volume selling of coins from depositors to large clients in exchange for "other" coins, but I could have been very wrong about that. Regardless, it doesn't really matter, because I had a talk with my investors about pirate on several occasions, and we all agreed to maintain a position of zero exposure, which I have stuck to.

Finally, regarding running completely to cold storage: it is certainly a solution to the scamming problem, but your solution denies capital to legitimate bitcoin businesses. For those who are willing and wanting to take on that risk in exchange for growth potential, providing this funding is a necessary part of the economy. That said, I do believe that cold storage is an essential savings vehicle for each person, but it's up to each of them as individuals to determine what percentage they wish to allocate there. I do not under-leverage the fund in this way because there is no one-size-fits-all solution, not to mention that it makes no sense (the whole point of cold storage is to do it yourself so that you have to trust no one).

[silverfuture]

I keep a healthy percentage in cold storage, the rest are allocated toward my best efforts at supporting the economy. Without some trust and mutually beneficial relationships, there is no economy.  But above all, trust enables people to do business with each other. Doing business is what creates wealth.

[Bitcoin Oz]

I keep a healthy percentage in cold storage, the rest are allocated toward my best efforts at supporting the economy. Without some trust and mutually beneficial relationships, there is no economy.  But above all, trust enables people to do business with each other. Doing business is what creates wealth.

 I dont know if its possible to have a functioning economy without enforcing property rights and contracts. What we have seen is people constantly breaking contracts with no recourse for anyone who has one broken.

 The question is how can you use bitcoin and make people stick to the contracts they sign ?

imho if the minimal function of government is to enforce contracts and ensure property rights.

[silverfuture]

I keep a healthy percentage in cold storage, the rest are allocated toward my best efforts at supporting the economy. Without some trust and mutually beneficial relationships, there is no economy.  But above all, trust enables people to do business with each other. Doing business is what creates wealth.

 I dont know if its possible to have a functioning economy without enforcing property rights and contracts. What we have seen is people constantly breaking contracts with no recourse for anyone who has one broken.

 The question is how can you use bitcoin and make people stick to the contracts they sign ?

imho if the minimal function of government is to enforce contracts and ensure property rights.

Government is just a(n) (arguably poor) monopoly provider of these services. A requirement for an IPO or listing on anything above pink market should be designation of arbitration and insurance services providers.    The current political environment and early stage of the bitcoin game makes it difficult to provide these services in a meaningful way yet but also clearly provides opportunity to profit for those with a penchant for creative solutions possibly even making use of Distributed contracts

[Puppet]

Government is just a(n) (arguably poor) monopoly provider of these services. A requirement for an IPO or listing on anything above pink market should be designation of arbitration and insurance services providers. 

Of course as long as contracts are unenforcable, those "service providers" are just as suspectable to either being scammed or being scams themselves as any other bitcoin company, so this doesnt help at all.

If you want to help grow bitcoin, the best and easiest way is simply spend bitcoins (and repurchase them). Investing is fine if there is something worthwhile investing in, but I just dont see it. I see almost nothing but mining assets and ponzi scams. Mining might be a real business, but you cant grow it, as its a zero sum game, it will always yield 50/25/.. BTC per 10 minutes.

[bitcoinBull]

I keep a healthy percentage in cold storage, the rest are allocated toward my best efforts at supporting the economy. Without some trust and mutually beneficial relationships, there is no economy.  But above all, trust enables people to do business with each other. Doing business is what creates wealth.

Depositing coins to the highest rated dood offering x% per week is not "doing business", and its not supporting the economy. Its a transfer of wealth to hyip scammers. Do you really want to support the economy, or are you just looking for the highest easy return?

What "real" business" do you invest in? or do you just leave it in the blockchain?

Check out Project Development. There are lots of potential products and people working on real businesses there. (I have one of my own that I work on).

[cytokine]

NAV per share updated to 1.08957716

[cytokine]

It is with great sadness and regret that I must announce my plan to close down the fund, for the following reasons:

(1) NCKRAZZE has stopped responding to my PMs. I now suspect the worst from him.
(2) Although it looks likely that BDT holders will be repaid, it also looks like it will take many weeks to months for this to happen. Nefario is leading the charge here, thank god.
(3) Generally speaking, it now appears that nearly every asset was either a scam itself (BDT, ZIP.A), or a pass-through into another scam (NCKRAZZE,TYGRR.BOND-P). The only good assets seem to be TEEK.B, COGNITIVE, NASTY, and OBSI.HRPT
(4) I have not made a dime from this operation (all "fees" were repaid in the form of bailing out the PUREMINING position), and net-net have lost a significant sum.

It is clear now that the bitcoin financial sector is premature/undeveloped, and I feel both embarrassed and disgusted by the massive scamming going on and depressed at the fallout that innocent people have had to suffer. I don't really want to harp any more on it than that. The sad thing is that the underlying investment approach I'm using has been working (although it cannot detect scams, which seem to be pretty much everywhere) and did have some home-runs that I didn't really touch on (such as giving me a timely sell signal on GIGAMINING, which we successfully exited right before it fell 50% in value).

Regardless, I have made up my mind to take up the sh*t assets on behalf of my investors. Before I outline the exact plan, first of all, here is the current portfolio:

Portfolio (Using 5-day average trade prices as of 9/30/2012)

SYMBOL	SHARES	PRICE	VALUE
COGNITIVE	1809	0.438	792.342
BDK.BND	3820	0.064	224.48
TYGRR.TECH	153	?	?
BDT	2473	?	?
TEEK.B	316	0.5	158
ZIP.A	139	?	?
NASTY	669	0.362	242.178
OBSI.HRPT	5152	0.041	211.232
TYGRR.BOND-P	2036	?	?
NCKRAZZE	2400	?	?

I own 5768 shares, which leaves 1472 shares out in the wild that need to be recalled. So here is what I'm thinking: transfer in your shares of MOVETO.FUND back to the fund (use "cytokine:MOVETO.FUND"). PM me with the time of the transfer, the # of shares, and your GLBSE account name. For each share of MOVETO.FUND that you return, I will transfer to you:

1 share COGNITIVE (5-day avg price of 0.438)
2 shares BDK.BND (5-day avg price of 0.064)
3 shares OBSI.HRPT (5-day avg price of 0.041)
Your choice of 1 share TEEK.B (5-day avg price of 0.5) or 1 share NASTY (5-day avg price of 0.362, but in my opinion very undervalued at the moment), a second share of COGNITIVE, OR choose from any of the ? assets.

To encourage everyone to get this done quickly, it's going to be first-come first-serve as to who gets to choose which assets. After all shares have been exchanged back into the fund, then I will keep the remaining assets in exchange for my 5768 shares (which means no doubt I'll end up holding all the crappy defaulted stuff). It sucks for me, but I'm going to do the right thing here. Again, if you're *prefer* any of these assets, let me know.

Thank guys, and let me know if you have any questions. At a minimum, this short and small experiment was a major learning experience.

[Francesco]

It is with great sadness and regret that I must announce my plan to close down the fund, for the following reasons:

(1) NCKRAZZE has stopped responding to my PMs. I now suspect the worst from him.
(2) Although it looks likely that BDT holders will be repaid, it also looks like it will take many weeks to months for this to happen. Nefario is leading the charge here, thank god.
(3) Generally speaking, it now appears that nearly every asset was either a scam itself (BDT, ZIP.A), or a pass-through into another scam (NCKRAZZE,TYGRR.BOND-P). The only good assets seem to be TEEK.B, COGNITIVE, NASTY, and OBSI.HRPT
(4) I have not made a dime from this operation (all "fees" were repaid in the form of bailing out the PUREMINING position), and net-net have lost a significant sum.

It is clear now that the bitcoin financial sector is premature/undeveloped, and I feel both embarrassed and disgusted by the massive scamming going on and depressed at the fallout that innocent people have had to suffer. I don't really want to harp any more on it than that. The sad thing is that the underlying investment approach I'm using has been working (although it cannot detect scams, which seem to be pretty much everywhere) and did have some home-runs that I didn't really touch on (such as giving me a timely sell signal on GIGAMINING, which we successfully exited right before it fell 50% in value).

Regardless, I have made up my mind to take up the sh*t assets on behalf of my investors. Before I outline the exact plan, first of all, here is the current portfolio:

Portfolio (Using 5-day average trade prices as of 9/30/2012)

SYMBOL	SHARES	PRICE	VALUE
COGNITIVE	1809	0.438	792.342
BDK.BND	3820	0.064	224.48
TYGRR.TECH	153	?	?
BDT	2473	?	?
TEEK.B	316	0.5	158
ZIP.A	139	?	?
NASTY	669	0.362	242.178
OBSI.HRPT	5152	0.093	479.136
TYGRR.BOND-P	2036	?	?
NCKRAZZE	2400	?	?

I own 5768 shares, which leaves 1472 shares out in the wild that need to be recalled. So here is what I'm thinking: transfer in your shares of MOVETO.FUND back to the fund (use "cytokine:MOVETO.FUND"). PM me with the time of the transfer, the # of shares, and your GLBSE account name. For each share of MOVETO.FUND that you return, I will transfer to you:

1 share COGNITIVE (5-day avg price of 0.438)
2 shares BDK.BND (5-day avg price of 0.064)
3 shares OBSI.HRPT (5-day avg price of 0.093)
Your choice of 1 share TEEK.B (5-day avg price of 0.5) or 1 share NASTY (5-day avg price of 0.362, but in my opinion very undervalued at the moment), a second share of COGNITIVE, OR choose from any of the ? assets.

To encourage everyone to get this done quickly, it's going to be first-come first-serve as to who gets to choose which assets. After all shares have been exchanged back into the fund, then I will keep the remaining assets in exchange for my 5768 shares (which means no doubt I'll end up holding all the crappy defaulted stuff). It sucks for me, but I'm going to do the right thing here. Again, if you're *prefer* any of these assets, let me know.

Thank guys, and let me know if you have any questions. At a minimum, this short and small experiment was a major learning experience.

I was hoping for a good news... so sad to see you go. Thanks for trying, and best luck for the future.

[markm]

It looks to me as if everyone and their dog was just running around scamming people out of "management fees" for their "investment expertise" without anyone actually creating anything worth investing in, so that all these scammers simply ran around investing in each other's scams.

Maybe someday when their are hundreds of real businesses being traded there will be room for some kind of "fund management" company but until then maybe the whole economy would be better off if all the "experts" would simply debate in public the merits and demerits of the one or two actual businesses available to invest in and reach a consensus between them as to whether any are actually worth investing in and if so which.

Then the readers can decide for themselves whether to heed any of the advice.

It might also help for some of the "experts" to manage their own personal portfolios profitably for a year or two, maybe making those public as part of the debate, so that evnetually over time readers can see whether any of them actually managed even to avoid losing their own nesteggs.

It is commendable that this particular manager seems to be taking responsibility, kudos on that.

-MarkM-

[dust]

(3) Generally speaking, it now appears that nearly every asset was either a scam itself (BDT, ZIP.A), or a pass-through into another scam (NCKRAZZE,TYGRR.BOND-P). The only good assets seem to be TEEK.B, COGNITIVE, NASTY, and OBSI.HRPT

I lol'ed.

[MPOE-PR]

It is clear now that the bitcoin financial sector is premature/undeveloped, and I feel both embarrassed and disgusted by the massive scamming going on and depressed at the fallout that innocent people have had to suffer.

You were on the wrong platform.

It looks to me as if everyone and their dog was just running around scamming people out of "management fees" for their "investment expertise" without anyone actually creating anything worth investing in, so that all these scammers simply ran around investing in each other's scams.

Maybe someday when their are hundreds of real businesses being traded there will be room for some kind of "fund management" company but until then maybe the whole economy would be better off if all the "experts" would simply debate in public the merits and demerits of the one or two actual businesses available to invest in and reach a consensus between them as to whether any are actually worth investing in and if so which.

This is very true. Forum retards belong on the forum not pretending they're financiers on "exchanges".

[Deprived]

(3) Generally speaking, it now appears that nearly every asset was either a scam itself (BDT, ZIP.A), or a pass-through into another scam (NCKRAZZE,TYGRR.BOND-P). The only good assets seem to be TEEK.B, COGNITIVE, NASTY, and OBSI.HRPT

I lol'ed.

Me too - not sure in which universe OBSI.HRPT have a 5-day average of over 0.09.

[MPOE-PR]

(3) Generally speaking, it now appears that nearly every asset was either a scam itself (BDT, ZIP.A), or a pass-through into another scam (NCKRAZZE,TYGRR.BOND-P). The only good assets seem to be TEEK.B, COGNITIVE, NASTY, and OBSI.HRPT

I lol'ed.

Me too - not sure in which universe OBSI.HRPT have a 5-day average of over 0.09.

Maybe it's insured up to that value.

[cytokine]

(3) Generally speaking, it now appears that nearly every asset was either a scam itself (BDT, ZIP.A), or a pass-through into another scam (NCKRAZZE,TYGRR.BOND-P). The only good assets seem to be TEEK.B, COGNITIVE, NASTY, and OBSI.HRPT

I lol'ed.

Me too - not sure in which universe OBSI.HRPT have a 5-day average of over 0.09.

Maybe it's insured up to that value.

Sorry, that was a mistake (it wasn't updated in the spreadsheet from last time). Fixed.