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Digicoinz (OP)
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October 24, 2014, 05:06:12 PM |
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Esoteric will be adding a feature that you will be able to confirm your BTC funds in your account by seeing them in the wallet from the blockchain!  How can they be using your funds to trade and make a profit if you can see the funds sitting there in a wallet? Because, there will be a wallet that will contain your btc (not in shares), the used btcs (bought shares) will be up on the wallets at the exchanges where the trading is happening. |
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eneloop
Legendary
 Offline
Activity: 1513
Merit: 1040
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October 24, 2014, 05:16:21 PM |
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SCAM/PONZI/HYIP, please stay away!
It's just another bitcoin-trader.biz. They were also "legit" till they ran with investors money, but then its too late.
You fool! There is still no proof that Bitcoin Trader was doing anything wrong. They might got robbed whatever, I don't know - but stop this witchhunt. Nobody is guilty until proven otherwise. Just a fool will believe their hacker story. - They still posted results after they got hacked - "We got hacked" is the new blind excuse - They deleted user information - They took of their webpage - A lot of other arguments I'm sure you already read in the bitcoin-trader.biz thread. Guys, be informed that Digicoinz and sunny1 pushes that shit for just one reason: They want to cash out after 120 days. This will happen with other investors money only. This is how a ponzi/HYIP works. |
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Digicoinz (OP)
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October 24, 2014, 05:16:42 PM |
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"Shavers also diverted investors’ Bitcoin for day trading in his account on a Bitcoin currency exchange, and exchanged investors’ Bitcoin for U.S. dollars to pay his personal expenses." That's where sec comes in. Eso isn't doing this. furthermore, shavers was lying about his business operations. And at this point in time, Eso hasn't given us any reason to even speculate this. |
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Digicoinz (OP)
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October 24, 2014, 05:18:46 PM |
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SCAM/PONZI/HYIP, please stay away!
It's just another bitcoin-trader.biz. They were also "legit" till they ran with investors money, but then its too late.
You fool! There is still no proof that Bitcoin Trader was doing anything wrong. They might got robbed whatever, I don't know - but stop this witchhunt. Nobody is guilty until proven otherwise. Just a fool will believe their hacker story. - They still posted results after they got hacked - "We got hacked" is the new blind excuse - They deleted user information - They took of their webpage - A lot of other arguments I'm sure you already read in the bitcoin-trader.biz thread. Guys, be informed that Digicoinz and sunny1 pushes that shit for just one reason: They want to cash out after 120 days. This will happen with other investors money only. This is how a ponzi/HYIP works.You can cashout everyday! why 120? and where did you get that arbitrary number from? Seriously, why you Bitchin about being able to make money? It's a doggy dog world out there, ppl do what they gotta do sometimes to make a buck. The fact you're even on this forum, is assumable that you use any method to make some extra cash. so stop calling the kettle black |
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eneloop
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1513
Merit: 1040
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October 24, 2014, 05:20:08 PM |
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Regarding the investment its 90 days. You quoted me to quick.
Q. How long is a Trading Pool Share term?
A. Trading Pool Shares last for a term of 90 days.
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Digicoinz (OP)
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October 24, 2014, 05:24:13 PM |
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Are you looking out for #2? do you honestly care about what happens in the end?
Why are you here? to make money or waste time watching others make it?
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Keyser Soze
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October 24, 2014, 05:25:37 PM |
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"Shavers also diverted investors’ Bitcoin for day trading in his account on a Bitcoin currency exchange, and exchanged investors’ Bitcoin for U.S. dollars to pay his personal expenses."
That's where sec comes in. Eso isn't doing this. furthermore, shavers was lying about his business operations. And at this point in time, Eso hasn't given us any reason to even speculate this.
Strawman more please. While I firmly believe this is a ponzi, that was not my original statement. 3) We are NOT currently licensed and as such do not operate with USD at the moment. We do not make any claims or allege in anyway to have any licensing or accreditations at the moment. We are in the process of building our company and applying for the necessary licenses as we expand.
Securities laws don't magically go away if you are soliciting investments in something other then USD. Even if they are legit, this is backwards thinking. You cannot just open up shop and worry about regulations later. See the below quote for further explanation. “Fraudsters are not beyond the reach of the SEC just because they use Bitcoin or another virtual currency to mislead investors and violate the federal securities laws,”
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Keyser Soze
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October 24, 2014, 05:30:11 PM |
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Are you looking out for #2? do you honestly care about what happens in the end?
Why are you here? to make money or waste time watching others make it?
I have no problem spending a little time and calling out ponzis. The people who promote them are perpetuating fraud, I'd rather not see that happen. |
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eneloop
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1513
Merit: 1040
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October 24, 2014, 05:31:32 PM |
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I smell high sock puppet activity in this thread. Digicoinz just registered one month ago to push that shit.
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Digicoinz (OP)
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October 24, 2014, 06:37:56 PM |
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Esoteric will be adding a feature that you will be able to confirm your BTC funds in your account by seeing them in the wallet from the blockchain! How can they be using your funds to trade and make a profit if you can see the funds sitting there in a wallet? You will be able to verify on the blockchain your unused funds in the account. The BTC that you deposit in which you buy the shares with will be transferred to the exchanges' wallet to do the trading. I will follow up with Glenn and Dan as to them providing the exchanges' wallet address with our funds. However you must also realize that Eso will be working with a lump sum of bitcoins stored in the company's shares when they do trading. So even when you see the wallet transactions from the exchange, it will be a large transfer of all the bitcoins being used, not every specific amount of bitcoin each investor funded. What could be done however is to show the transactions of bitcoins from the investor's wallet to the exchanges and back. |
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Digicoinz (OP)
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October 24, 2014, 07:05:50 PM |
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Update on company contact information.
The owner Dan Pace's contact number:
732-903-8379 (google voice)
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Phantom Trader
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
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October 24, 2014, 08:32:08 PM |
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Hey all
Wallet addresses are coming to verify funds are in fact there. The wallets that will be made public are for the profit reserves pool and account credits. The majority trading fund is kept in several wallets of our own and exchanges that we change periodically, so displaying those wallets would be a hassle, and we see as a possible liability to our trading strategies, and targets us for hackers more and more as the pool will grow. So the trading pool itself will not be view-able from the blockchain. But with some mathematics you could tell the size of it we are just keeping all aspects of that fund as much off the internet as possible.
Trading Bitcoin is property for the securities and exchange commission. As when you exchange the coin you exchange it for the coin, not a security that says you own the coin, I actually have it in my wallet to use for purchases or to sell it for something else. Crypto currency is like trading cards you wouldn't need a license to trade a babe ruth rookie card for 1000 crappy cards of no name players regardless if the babe ruth card was yours or a trading card exchange client.
Shavers bought and sold bitcoin for USD which requires money transmitter regulations, and he knowingly ran a ponzi scheme. We do not trade any investor funds for USD only profits that are taken off the top for our cut to pay ourselves and expenses for the company of which some still remains in bitcoin since, we like Bitcoin. Also as we're not knowingly running a ponzi scheme we do not really need to worry about Shavers.
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Rannasha
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October 24, 2014, 09:06:22 PM |
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Trading Bitcoin is property for the securities and exchange commission. As when you exchange the coin you exchange it for the coin, not a security that says you own the coin, I actually have it in my wallet to use for purchases or to sell it for something else. Crypto currency is like trading cards you wouldn't need a license to trade a babe ruth rookie card for 1000 crappy cards of no name players regardless if the babe ruth card was yours or a trading card exchange client.
You don't need a license to trade Bitcoin, correct. You do need a license if you do so with other peoples money. Seeking investments for an unregistered security is not something the SEC is a big fan of. And that is completely ignoring the big question of whether the entire operation is actually doing what it claims to do. For which no evidence whatsoever has been presented. |
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Keyser Soze
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October 24, 2014, 09:14:50 PM |
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Shavers bought and sold bitcoin for USD which requires money transmitter regulations, and he knowingly ran a ponzi scheme. We do not trade any investor funds for USD only profits that are taken off the top for our cut to pay ourselves and expenses for the company of which some still remains in bitcoin since, we like Bitcoin. Also as we're not knowingly running a ponzi scheme we do not really need to worry about Shavers.
In the Shavers case, all transactions between investors and Shavers were solely in bitcoin. His supposed business was buying and selling bitcoins for USD, but these transactions did not involve investors. You should really review more about the Shavers case and why it is relevant to your "business". A couple of excerpts from https://www.scribd.com/doc/158943320/SEC-v-Shavers-August-6: The term “security” is defined as “any note, stock, treasury stock, security future, security-based swap, bond…[or] investment contract…” 15 U.S.C. § 77b. An investment contract is any contract, transaction, or scheme involving (1) an investment of money, (2) in a common enterprise, (3) with the expectation that profits will be derived from the efforts of the promoter or a third party.
It is clear that Bitcoin can be used as money. It can be used to purchase goods or services, and as Shavers stated, used to pay for individual living expenses. The only limitation of Bitcoin is that it is limited to those places that accept it as currency. However, it can also be exchanged for conventional currencies, such as the U.S.dollar, Euro, Yen, and Yuan. Therefore, Bitcoin is a currency or form of money, and investors wishing to invest in BTCST provided an investment of money.
So why do securities laws not apply to you? |
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Digicoinz (OP)
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October 24, 2014, 10:06:46 PM |
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Shavers bought and sold bitcoin for USD which requires money transmitter regulations, and he knowingly ran a ponzi scheme. We do not trade any investor funds for USD only profits that are taken off the top for our cut to pay ourselves and expenses for the company of which some still remains in bitcoin since, we like Bitcoin. Also as we're not knowingly running a ponzi scheme we do not really need to worry about Shavers.
In the Shavers case, all transactions between investors and Shavers were solely in bitcoin. His supposed business was buying and selling bitcoins for USD, but these transactions did not involve investors. You should really review more about the Shavers case and why it is relevant to your "business". A couple of excerpts from https://www.scribd.com/doc/158943320/SEC-v-Shavers-August-6: The term “security” is defined as “any note, stock, treasury stock, security future, security-based swap, bond…[or] investment contract…” 15 U.S.C. § 77b. An investment contract is any contract, transaction, or scheme involving (1) an investment of money, (2) in a common enterprise, (3) with the expectation that profits will be derived from the efforts of the promoter or a third party.
It is clear that Bitcoin can be used as money. It can be used to purchase goods or services, and as Shavers stated, used to pay for individual living expenses. The only limitation of Bitcoin is that it is limited to those places that accept it as currency. However, it can also be exchanged for conventional currencies, such as the U.S.dollar, Euro, Yen, and Yuan. Therefore, Bitcoin is a currency or form of money, and investors wishing to invest in BTCST provided an investment of money.
So why do securities laws not apply to you? Esoteric isn't holding Fiat currency, or dealing in fiat transactions. Bitcoin doesn't fall under this. that's what you keep missing about the shavers case. he was dealing in transactions with actual US dollars. Esoteric IS NOT. and the trading is occuring on exchanges not operated by Esoteric, albeit not applicable to them. understand? |
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Keyser Soze
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October 24, 2014, 10:37:33 PM |
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Esoteric isn't holding Fiat currency, or dealing in fiat transactions. Bitcoin doesn't fall under this. that's what you keep missing about the shavers case. he was dealing in transactions with actual US dollars. Esoteric IS NOT. and the trading is occuring on exchanges not operated by Esoteric, albeit not applicable to them.
understand?
Re-read what I wrote. In both the Shavers case and in Esoteric's, they were/are soliciting investments in bitcoin and bitcoin only. In Shavers case, courts determined that bitcoin can be used as money and the bitcoin denominated investments can be classified as securities under the SEC. Shavers purported business activity is largely irrelevant. If you do not understand what constitutes a security in the eyes of the SEC, please do your own research. So the question again is, why does Esoteric think securities laws do not apply? |
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Phantom Trader
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
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October 24, 2014, 11:02:37 PM |
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Trading Bitcoin is property for the securities and exchange commission. As when you exchange the coin you exchange it for the coin, not a security that says you own the coin, I actually have it in my wallet to use for purchases or to sell it for something else. Crypto currency is like trading cards you wouldn't need a license to trade a babe ruth rookie card for 1000 crappy cards of no name players regardless if the babe ruth card was yours or a trading card exchange client.
You don't need a license to trade Bitcoin, correct. You do need a license if you do so with other peoples money. Seeking investments for an unregistered security is not something the SEC is a big fan of. And that is completely ignoring the big question of whether the entire operation is actually doing what it claims to do. For which no evidence whatsoever has been presented. Shavers bought and sold bitcoin for USD which requires money transmitter regulations, and he knowingly ran a ponzi scheme. We do not trade any investor funds for USD only profits that are taken off the top for our cut to pay ourselves and expenses for the company of which some still remains in bitcoin since, we like Bitcoin. Also as we're not knowingly running a ponzi scheme we do not really need to worry about Shavers.
In the Shavers case, all transactions between investors and Shavers were solely in bitcoin. His supposed business was buying and selling bitcoins for USD, but these transactions did not involve investors. You should really review more about the Shavers case and why it is relevant to your "business". A couple of excerpts from https://www.scribd.com/doc/158943320/SEC-v-Shavers-August-6: The term “security” is defined as “any note, stock, treasury stock, security future, security-based swap, bond…[or] investment contract…” 15 U.S.C. § 77b. An investment contract is any contract, transaction, or scheme involving (1) an investment of money, (2) in a common enterprise, (3) with the expectation that profits will be derived from the efforts of the promoter or a third party.
It is clear that Bitcoin can be used as money. It can be used to purchase goods or services, and as Shavers stated, used to pay for individual living expenses. The only limitation of Bitcoin is that it is limited to those places that accept it as currency. However, it can also be exchanged for conventional currencies, such as the U.S.dollar, Euro, Yen, and Yuan. Therefore, Bitcoin is a currency or form of money, and investors wishing to invest in BTCST provided an investment of money.
So why do securities laws not apply to you? Rannasha What would you like to see from us to give proof of our trading. I admit this is the weakest area that we have for transparency as we can't show you trading account information or current coins and open orders being traded as that may screw up our trading and as a result the pool. All we have been able to show is the process of coins we did trade like doge that we have showed. Keyser Soze So America; FED says bitcoin is not a currency, IRS taxes it like a commodity, SEC claims it is a property investment, while still being a form of money to the judiciary. Every branch of government has a different stance on this thing wtf. Love this country... Keyser Soze we'll have to address that in some way to abide by the law. As you probably know and see above the USA doesn't make it easy to understand how and I'm sure they don't make it cheap to do so. As of the last SEC publication concerning bitcoin it was being deemed as property, like the IRS has it, that would be invested in us to buy and sell to make more of that property, not money, so we have been trying to comply with that idea as our bare minimum amount of regulations till we are able to afford registrations for the whole thing starting with SEC accreditation up to FINcen. Seeing as how the shavers case was a year before this last publication maybe the regulation is different now, wouldn't get shavers out of jail as he was running a blatant ponzi scheme so we would't have heard anything about an appeals case in the news as he got what he deserved for being a scam regardless of bitcoin being money or not for investments. In a few months regulations wont be of any concern so wait patiently and stay un-involved in the pool if you want till we have them. In the meantime we are seeking advice from people more attuned to the legalities then us. If ceasing trading till we have certification is necessary then that is what we will do if not then we will get those certification in due time to expand. We'll be sure to update everyone on either outcome within the coming weeks to month with a statement from the legal adviser we'd meet with. Sadly hard to find a good bitcoin lawyer in NJ or anywhere, and don't want to trust a regular business lawyer as I'm sure they'll tell us what requires the most to pay to them, and not what the actual stance is for the law on Bitcoin Feel free to refer some Bitcoin attorneys to us. |
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nutildah
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3024
Merit: 8124
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October 24, 2014, 11:39:03 PM |
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This is a Ponzi scheme. It is a scam. If you invest in it, you will be aiding and abetting criminal activity, and you will probably lose your money.
I will be here to remind you what idiots you all are afterwards, too.
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Digicoinz (OP)
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October 24, 2014, 11:40:20 PM |
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This is a Ponzi scheme. It is a scam. If you invest in it, you will be aiding and abetting criminal activity, and you will probably lose your money.
I will be here to remind you what idiots you all are afterwards, too.
And I'll be here to throw it back in your face when its not >: ) |
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