Esoteric Investments, LLC (up to 1% earnings)

[Phantom Trader]

BTW, I have not yet heard back from jpaccounts.com, so as far as Im concerned the ID of the perpetrator has not yet been confirmed.

Phantomtrader claimed someone called his house, if so, could we have some feedback of that from whoever did it? I dont want everyone to spam/call this family as for all I know, they may even not be involved at all.

If you do call or visit the address, please keep it polite, just verify the identity of the operator and inform his family of the ongoing scam. If phantomtrader is who he claims to be, it shouldnt be hard for his mother to understand the consequences of operating a ponzi or selling  unregistered securities

And you wont be! She is not going to respond to your unsolicited and unwarranted request for information and she is under no obligation to. I have told her not to answer you as she has no reason to compromise her privacy. My name is out there more then enough in multiple locations. Finding me is no chore. I even gave you a federal license identification of myself, Amateur Radio operators are regulated by the FCC.

Bottom line look at all of our resources discussed here, posted on the site, and all of our social media. Come talk to us so we can answer your questions and tell you about ourselves. And check up on us as we add more to our resources to prove our legitimacy. Then if you trust us invest what you are willing to. If you do not trust us then don't invest into us until a point you may feel comfortable investing. At this point their is enough information you can make your own decision and come to us with valid questions.

If not allowing our families to be involved and contact any of you causes you to not trust us then do not invest your bitcoin!

[Puppet]

You posted information of someone, there is no way to know if it is yours or if you stole someone else's identity from public available information. A reply from your mother would go a long way proving you are who you say you are.

But dont worry, the authorities will sort it out. I filed a complaint with the SEC. Admittedly it will take time for them to do anything, but the outcome is not in question. Among countless other violations, you are selling unregistered securities, and that fact alone could potentially land you in jail. Here is an interesting read for you:

http://www.nj.gov/oag/ca/press/dangelo.htm

An extract:

D’Angelo offered investments in the CMR “Capital Enhancement Program,” promising a guaranteed rate of return of 5 percent interest per month and return of the investor’s principal after 12 months. Investors were told their money was absolutely safe because it was held in “non-depletion funds” or “non-accessible” bank accounts. Investors were given conflicting stories about how profits were generated, including foreign currency trading, unspecified activity in Switzerland, U.S. government money manipulation, and trading in large blocks of bank notes.

In reality, D’Angelo commingled investor funds, using funds from new investors to pay old investors in the typical fashion of a Ponzi scheme

Sounds familiar?

Michael D’Angelo, 48, of Millstone Township, was sentenced on Friday, Nov. 6, to three years in state prison by Superior Court Judge Francis P. DeStefano in Monmouth County. [..]  D’Angelo must pay a total of $670,177 in restitution, penalties and disgorged funds.

If you are who you claim you are, you are in deep shit.

If anyone else feels like filing:

https://denebleo.sec.gov/TCRExternal/questionaire.xhtml

You can do so anonymously with the SEC if you want. You can also file with the New jersey bureau of securities here:

http://www.njsecurities.gov/compform.htm

[Digicoinz]

You posted information of someone, there is no way to know if it is yours or if you stole someone else's identity from public available information. A reply from your mother would go a long way proving you are who you say you are.

But dont worry, the authorities will sort it out. I filed a complaint with the SEC. Admittedly it will take time for them to do anything, but the outcome is not in question. Among countless other violations, you are selling unregistered securities, and that fact alone could potentially land you in jail. Here is an interesting read for you:

http://www.nj.gov/oag/ca/press/dangelo.htm

An extract:

D’Angelo offered investments in the CMR “Capital Enhancement Program,” promising a guaranteed rate of return of 5 percent interest per month and return of the investor’s principal after 12 months. Investors were told their money was absolutely safe because it was held in “non-depletion funds” or “non-accessible” bank accounts. Investors were given conflicting stories about how profits were generated, including foreign currency trading, unspecified activity in Switzerland, U.S. government money manipulation, and trading in large blocks of bank notes.

In reality, D’Angelo commingled investor funds, using funds from new investors to pay old investors in the typical fashion of a Ponzi scheme

Sounds familiar?

Michael D’Angelo, 48, of Millstone Township, was sentenced on Friday, Nov. 6, to three years in state prison by Superior Court Judge Francis P. DeStefano in Monmouth County. [..]  D’Angelo must pay a total of $670,177 in restitution, penalties and disgorged funds.

If you are who you claim you are, you are in deep shit.

If anyone else feels like filing:

https://denebleo.sec.gov/TCRExternal/questionaire.xhtml

You can do so anonymously with the SEC if you want. You can also file with the New jersey bureau of securities here:

http://www.njsecurities.gov/compform.htm

Hmm you say you filed, where's the copy of your complaint?

[Phantom Trader]

All HYIP inquiries and accounts shall be deleted immediately, and any associated traffic, referrals, or accounts received from these sites shall be warned that the referring website is a known area to market scams and fraudulent services.

[White sugar]

All HYIP inquiries and accounts shall be deleted immediately, and any associated traffic, referrals, or accounts received from these sites shall be warned that the referring website is a known area to market scams and fraudulent services.

you speak like you are an administrator

but you are only a newbie with -6 reputation

[Puppet]

Hmm you say you filed, where's the copy of your complaint?

Why would I provide you a copy? Its been filed and I got a case number TCR1414400659xxx
If you prefer to think I didnt file, thats fine by me.

[Phantom Trader]

All HYIP inquiries and accounts shall be deleted immediately, and any associated traffic, referrals, or accounts received from these sites shall be warned that the referring website is a known area to market scams and fraudulent services.

you speak like you are an administrator

but you are only a newbie with -6 reputation

I'm an administrator of my site and company, and we are notifying HYIP promoters and their sites we do not want their association.

[eneloop]

Where is your 5 % a month offer. Got some cold feet?!

[Puppet]

Where is your 5 % a month offer. Got some cold feet?!

ROFL, indeed he removed it. Not that I believe the lottery is in fact legal without licensing, or for that matter the "Deej Pool"

[Phantom Trader]

Had said I was going to remove it. Since it caused so much confusion.

[fedor3327]

I put a partial copy (actually I have full copy with API and scripts too) of that site before being removed:
http://rusfolder.com/42102433

Edit.

Where is your 5 % a month offer. Got some cold feet?!

ROFL, indeed he removed it. Not that I believe the lottery is in fact legal without licensing, or for that matter the "Deej Pool"

before:
https://i.imgur.com/0DZlyCf.png

right now:
https://i.imgur.com/16wNd8c.png

If you are who you claim you are, you are in deep shit.

If anyone else feels like filing:

https://denebleo.sec.gov/TCRExternal/questionaire.xhtml

You can do so anonymously with the SEC if you want. You can also file with the New jersey bureau of securities here:

http://www.njsecurities.gov/compform.htm

Also filled reports because people was scammed a lot.

Regards.

[Phildo]

You are claiming that you are taking coins from people, sending them to exchanges, trading with them, and then sending the profits back.

You could go part of the way to showing that this was true if there was a public ledger showing all of the transactions. If only there was a public way to show that all the coins people gave to you were sent to exchanges, and that all of your payouts are coming from exchanges. If only there was some way to track the chain of coins going from your investors to you to the exchanges back to you and back to the investors.

This wouldn't be perfect, since we still have no proof that you are doing what you say you are doing, but I'm sure you are working on a way to be transparent and prove that to everyone.

Showing that all your coins are actually going to and coming from would be a good start on the path to transparency, if only that public ledger existed...

[Puppet]

You are claiming that you are taking coins from people, sending them to exchanges, trading with them, and then sending the profits back.

You could go part of the way to showing that this was true if there was a public ledger showing all of the transactions.

One of his accomplices inadvertently did that already.  have a look here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=835706.msg9339047#msg9339047

.22 BTC deposited in to this address:
https://blockchain.info/address/15BfzBttWvmYq2eSK7Yt9RxYDSWBaWv9nE

Which where then siphoned to here:
https://blockchain.info/address/1HEt984iQ93snJVQWqrD2qu8aANah588es

And remained untouched ever since. Im sure our scammer will start mixing those coins upon reading this post, but he hasnt done anything with it for the past 3 weeks, yet somehow made 7% profit on it.

BTW, I assume the two 0.01BTC shares runek1 owns, for which there are no matching deposits, is his affiliate link loot. All that trouble, all those lies and all that guilt  for ~$7  that he probably wont even be able to withdraw.

[1RuneKing]

You are claiming that you are taking coins from people, sending them to exchanges, trading with them, and then sending the profits back.

You could go part of the way to showing that this was true if there was a public ledger showing all of the transactions.

One of his accomplices inadvertently did that already.  have a look here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=835706.msg9339047#msg9339047

.22 BTC deposited in to this address:
https://blockchain.info/address/15BfzBttWvmYq2eSK7Yt9RxYDSWBaWv9nE

Which where then siphoned to here:
https://blockchain.info/address/1HEt984iQ93snJVQWqrD2qu8aANah588es

And remained untouched ever since. Im sure our scammer will start mixing those coins upon reading this post, but he hasnt done anything with it for the past 3 weeks, yet somehow made 7% profit on it.

BTW, I assume the two 0.01BTC shares runek1 owns, for which there are no matching deposits, is his affiliate link loot. All that trouble, all those lies and all that guilt  for ~$7  that he probably wont even be able to withdraw.

That first share was given to me, the second .01 share was something I bought from the returns of the past while.
I am not a sock puppet account. I am a real and individual person. My identity you shall not know, but I live in Benton City Washington.

[Keyser Soze]

This is the publication I am referring to. http://www.sec.gov/oiea/investor-alerts-bulletins/investoralertsia_bitcoin.html#.VEsX9_nF_Sc

Yes, I read the opinion of the court, and see your point. In the last year though the federal reserve officially said that bitcoin is not currency, anyone in the bitcoin environment I'm sure heard that so not gonna bother finding a link. and this publication was brought up as well as the IRS officially saying bitcoin shall be treated as a commodity/property and not currency. This is the definition of a security http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/security a trade able note of some sort that stands for ownership of a piece of property be it a share in a company or a commodity. Our shares are not trade able like a mutual funds would be on the stock market, and the bitcoin exchanges do not transfer securities of different coins you get the actual coin. In a commodity market for say bananas you wont sell a single banana if you brought a whole hand there with you since those are securities. In crypto markets its only the actual bananas being traded for actual oranges, actual bitcoins for actual altcoins that you get immediate ownership of. So we are not exactly meeting the definition of exchanging securities.

We may be doing investment contracts but that would require bitcoin investments to be money which the entire federal government this year after that case has said they are not. So at this point with where regulation is in the US theres a disagreement between judicial systems (a year ago) and the legislature and executive branches. AKA we'll need a supreme court ruling on this one to know for sure to make it go one way or the other. The judiciary can't consider bitcoin investments as money while they consider any other form of bitcoin as not money.

Investors are giving us their property in hopes of us returning more of it back, not in hopes of raising its value, according to every financial US bureau. This interpretation of the law from this opinion would say they are giving their money to invest. Since the SEC has said it isn't money then the interpretation of the Securities and Exchange Act could be different and this opinion could possibly be appealed.

As I said there's some ambiguity here. Ambiguity that I don't think the legal minds of bitcointalk.org will clear up. So again either find me a bitcoin lawyer or wait for me to find one to see what the current idea is for this sort of work like I said Esoteric Investments has nothing to really base whats needed off of.

It is interesting that you see that SEC publication differently than the documents related to the Shavers case. As it has been mentioned several times now in this thread, the SEC has been able to successfully show to a court that Bitcoin is "like money" (they even use "like money" in that publication) and fits the definition of money when defining a security. This suggests (to me) that SEC/courts intentionally use a very loose definition of money when defining a security to avoid loopholes.

Seems that you believe there is some ambiguity here, but it appears (to me and others here) the SEC/courts think differently. Are you prepared to challenge the SEC if they do take action against you?

[sunny1]

This is the publication I am referring to. http://www.sec.gov/oiea/investor-alerts-bulletins/investoralertsia_bitcoin.html#.VEsX9_nF_Sc

Yes, I read the opinion of the court, and see your point. In the last year though the federal reserve officially said that bitcoin is not currency, anyone in the bitcoin environment I'm sure heard that so not gonna bother finding a link. and this publication was brought up as well as the IRS officially saying bitcoin shall be treated as a commodity/property and not currency. This is the definition of a security http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/security a trade able note of some sort that stands for ownership of a piece of property be it a share in a company or a commodity. Our shares are not trade able like a mutual funds would be on the stock market, and the bitcoin exchanges do not transfer securities of different coins you get the actual coin. In a commodity market for say bananas you wont sell a single banana if you brought a whole hand there with you since those are securities. In crypto markets its only the actual bananas being traded for actual oranges, actual bitcoins for actual altcoins that you get immediate ownership of. So we are not exactly meeting the definition of exchanging securities.

We may be doing investment contracts but that would require bitcoin investments to be money which the entire federal government this year after that case has said they are not. So at this point with where regulation is in the US theres a disagreement between judicial systems (a year ago) and the legislature and executive branches. AKA we'll need a supreme court ruling on this one to know for sure to make it go one way or the other. The judiciary can't consider bitcoin investments as money while they consider any other form of bitcoin as not money.

Investors are giving us their property in hopes of us returning more of it back, not in hopes of raising its value, according to every financial US bureau. This interpretation of the law from this opinion would say they are giving their money to invest. Since the SEC has said it isn't money then the interpretation of the Securities and Exchange Act could be different and this opinion could possibly be appealed.

As I said there's some ambiguity here. Ambiguity that I don't think the legal minds of bitcointalk.org will clear up. So again either find me a bitcoin lawyer or wait for me to find one to see what the current idea is for this sort of work like I said Esoteric Investments has nothing to really base whats needed off of.

It is interesting that you see that SEC publication differently than the documents related to the Shavers case. As it has been mentioned several times now in this thread, the SEC has been able to successfully show to a court that Bitcoin is "like money" (they even use "like money" in that publication) and fits the definition of money when defining a security. This suggests (to me) that SEC/courts intentionally use a very loose definition of money when defining a security to avoid loopholes.

Seems that you believe there is some ambiguity here, but it appears (to me and others here) the SEC/courts think differently. Are you prepared to challenge the SEC if they do take action against you?

That would be very costly to start with and for sure can't be paid for with a couple of 0.1 btc investments.

[Puppet]

This suggests (to me) that SEC/courts intentionally use a very loose definition of money when defining a security to avoid loopholes.

If you read the actual definitions in the security act of 1933, you will see they use the term "for value" in the definition of a sale. The word "money" isnt even there, let alone dollar. So it doesnt matter if you sell your investment instrument for, or denominate it in dollar, gold,  barrels of oil or bitcoin, as long as it has value.

As for the definition of a security, to say its broad is an understatement:

The term “security” means any note, stock, treasury stock, security future, security-based swap, bond, debenture, evidence of indebtedness, certificate of interest or participation in any profit-sharing agreement, collateral-trust certificate, preorganization certificate or subscription, transferable share, investment contract, voting-trust certificate, certificate of deposit for a security, fractional undivided interest in oil, gas, or other mineral rights, any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege on any security, certificate of deposit, or group or index of securities (including any interest therein or based on the value thereof), or any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege entered into on a national securities exchange relating to foreign currency, or, in general, any interest or instrument commonly known as a “security”, or any certificate of interest or participation in, temporary or interim certificate for, receipt for, guarantee of, or warrant or right to subscribe to or purchase, any of the foregoing.

[Keyser Soze]

If you read the actual definitions in the security act of 1933, you will see they use the term "for value" in the definition of a sale. The word "money" isnt even there, let alone dollar. So it doesnt matter if you sell your investment instrument for, or denominate it in dollar, gold,  barrels of oil or bitcoin, as long as it has value.

As for the definition of a security, to say its broad is an understatement:

The term “security” means any note, stock, treasury stock, security future, security-based swap, bond, debenture, evidence of indebtedness, certificate of interest or participation in any profit-sharing agreement, collateral-trust certificate, preorganization certificate or subscription, transferable share, investment contract, voting-trust certificate, certificate of deposit for a security, fractional undivided interest in oil, gas, or other mineral rights, any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege on any security, certificate of deposit, or group or index of securities (including any interest therein or based on the value thereof), or any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege entered into on a national securities exchange relating to foreign currency, or, in general, any interest or instrument commonly known as a “security”, or any certificate of interest or participation in, temporary or interim certificate for, receipt for, guarantee of, or warrant or right to subscribe to or purchase, any of the foregoing.

Good point, I was going off the investment contract definition used in the Shavers case.

After all this discussion, I can't fathom how any rational person would think the "because... bitcoin" defense would work with the SEC.

[Vod]

After all this discussion, I can't fathom how any rational person would think the "because... bitcoin" defense would work with the SEC.

Their #3 client posted the following about that: 

BTC has no regulation so it is not necessary for them to speak with a lawyer.

 

[rammy2k2]

All HYIP inquiries and accounts shall be deleted immediately, and any associated traffic, referrals, or accounts received from these sites shall be warned that the referring website is a known area to market scams and fraudulent services.

you speak like you are an administrator

but you are only a newbie with -6 reputation

I'm an administrator of my site and company, and we are notifying HYIP promoters and their sites we do not want their association.

ROFL ... BT said the same