Cross post: Petition to form an indepentent Objectivist State

[frisco2]

Hi,

This is kind of related to Bitcoin, in terms of laissez-fair capitalism. Perhaps, some of you here are also Objectivists.

http://forum.objectivismonline.com/index.php?showtopic=23489

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[theymos]

You should call it Rapture.

The US government will never agree to those terms. And even if it did, you couldn't trust it not to break its promises later.

[ElectricMucus]

Distributed Republics

You are right it's the end of the world as we know it, in a good way though.
imo we are heading there - one way or the other.

[frisco2]

You could say then that we can't trust USA govt respecting the constitution.  If you think that the govt can break any law and amendment at any time, then you have a bigger problem than income taxes -- a totalitarian state. But USA prides itself of not being one. Lets capitalize on this fact to create an amendment: "The right to small groups to create self-sustaining isolated communities forgoing benefits of USA social security, in exchange for not paying income taxes".

[ElectricMucus]

That's one of these things you don't ask for permission or approval.

You do it.
It's a systematic law of how structures emerge and empires fall. No declaration of agenda or political worldview can change that.

[MoneyIsDebt]

Why not buy one of the Greek islands. I hear they're in need of hard cash.

[frisco2]

No, if we just get together and declare that we don't want to pay income taxes, two things will happen:

- we will stay in the territory but be forced to pay taxes, rendering the whole effort moot
- we will abandon the whole work effort
- we may try to rebel, but then, we degrade into the mode like in historical wars

The whole point to do this the right way.

[ineededausername]

Please explain why you think this even MIGHT work, at all....

[frisco2]

There are degrees on how much it will work

- Worst case: doesn't work at all on the govt -- it will raise public awareness as an alternative to the Tea Party, and occupy.  We know what we want, and we don't do any vandalism.
- Mid case: We get some discussion going with govt: people will observe us and will get hope that everything is possible.
- Good case: we get started, and work things out as we move along. Create journals and publicity. Get people excited. Kind replay the story of Bitcoin in this new domain.

[ShireSilver]

Just move to New Hampshire and put in some effort to change things. Lots of us here will help, and many of us are already working on it.

Free State Project

[frisco2]

I know about the Free State Project, and in fact, its mentioned in the post.  The problem is that the Free State project doesn't solve the federal tax problem, which is the biggest one.  It removes the state tax, which is not a big deal, because already now I can register a company in a tax free state, like Delaware. 

[ElectricMucus]

what does that have to do with objectivism anyway?

[frisco2]

Objectivism implies a free society, that pays no taxes.

[herzmeister]

Why not buy one of the Greek islands. I hear they're in need of hard cash.

The island will be taken by the EU then. As collateral.

[Stardust]

[frisco2]

I don't hate the idea of government. I want a government that protects my rights to private property (rather than steals it). As for Somalia, their government has no ability to protect anyone: no police / military power.  Having a govt, police, army, constitution and a court system is the key to enable free capitalism.

[herzmeister]

Converse fallacy of accident, fallacy of false cause.

The truth ist rather this:

Somali “Anarchy” Is More Orderly than Somali Government

[freespirit]

Forget the USA, the US government behemoth will never go along with this. As well as most countries. The problem is that the majority of people around the world got used to the idea that taxation is some kind of inalienable right of the state (and that the state may increase or invent whatever taxes they want whenever they just need/want more money). Come to think of it, just around a 100 years ago the US Constitution explicitly prohibited income taxation...

If you want to get anywhere with this idea, you need to consider implementing it elsewhere. I'd suggest looking into Georgia (NOT the US state). Since 2004 their government seems to consist of mostly libertarian/libertarian-ish politicians. Read about this guy for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakha_Bendukidze

After having been appointed Minister of Economy in the new Saakashvili cabiner for a semester, since December 14, 2004 to January 31, 2008, he was State Minister on reforms coordination, coordinating government efforts to liberalize the economy.

He is known as a committed libertarian[1] and strong supporter of market economy, deregulation and privatization , stating that the Georgian government should sell everything except its honor. During 2004-2007, under his leadership, Georgia became the top-reforming country in the world, according to the World Bank's Doing Business report. In particular, Georgia jumped from 137 to 18 on the ease of doing business scale, ahead of Germany and France.

Some useful information is available here: http://www.investingeorgia.org/?40/10_reasons_to_invest_in_georgia/
They still have some taxes though: http://www.investingeorgia.org/?84/tax_system/ (note "tax free regimes" at the bottom however)
Wall Street Jornal exemplified this country as a reformer (towards free market, deregulation etc.) and suggested that EU countries should learn from them: http://www.adamsmith.org/news/in-the-news/georgian-times-wsj-exmplifies-georgia-as-reformer-in-economic-sector

They also apparently have a lot of undeveloped land (and the population is just around 4.5 million) to the point that they call for investors to build a whole new city: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/22/world/europe/in-georgia-plans-for-an-instant-city.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
Besides, they actually tried to implement something similar to your idea on their own! (although without tax-free component) See http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2012/02/georgia

In August 2010, showing commendable imagination from a 5,000-mile distance, the authorities in Tbilisi invited South African farmers wanting a change of scene to consider an alternative: farming in Georgia. The country has an exuberantly pro-business government, low crime rates, and soil that positively squelches with underexploited potential.

Of course, you would need numbers to approach them with this idea but they certainly are flexible.
Even Donald Trump has interests there already (that should be a positive indication): http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/story/2012-04-22/trump-georgia-apartments/54472442/1

[Hawker]

Honduras is creating "free" zones that will be within its sovereignty but not taxed or administered by it.  They have literally decided that the only way to get administration without corruption and human rights violations is that their own state exclude itself.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/urban-prosperity-in-the-red/article2412947/

Would one of them be the place to try your idea?

[freespirit]

Honduras is creating "free" zones that will be within its sovereignty but not taxed or administered by it.  They have literally decided that the only way to get administration without corruption and human rights violations is that their own state exclude itself.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/urban-prosperity-in-the-red/article2412947/

Would one of them be the place to try your idea?

That looks more like the opposite of what the topic starter is looking for. Regions managed by "innovative" socialist-ish governments like Canadian?
Although, perhaps they would be open to creating regions with different rules.