**PUBLIC ALERT** Change with process of "mining" BTC or it WILL fail.

[johnyj]

Make a mining heater, and I'll start mining. I spend some kW on heating anyway.

Great, I still remember the first BFL vision that their jalapeno miner work as a coffee warmer, but that end up with fans and huge surge in power spec due to people greedily want more hash power

And I think those large farms will be shut down one by one when electricity cost is higher than the exchange rate. And their miners will be sold dirt cheap to students who have free electricity. In bitcoin's world, centralized organiztion will always face much larger risk than distributed individual actors

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[lunarboy]

wow to this thread .... just wow.

[Q7]

We know there is a problem and there is nothing we can do to fix it. From here either abandon ship and move to altcoins that address this issue or live on with it. Sadly that is the *fact*

[tanaka]

We know there is a problem and there is nothing we can do to fix it. From here either abandon ship and move to altcoins that address this issue or live on with it. Sadly that is the *fact*

If btc will fail, then it will fail. Those who are trying to keep it alive have done their job but btc users tend to hold instead of using it. If it will die, let it be.

[TheTribesman]

Why don't you just stop visiting this forum with such a negative attitude? Just stop responding is the first step.

I'm not the one with the negative attitude. I'm not the one predicting the death and destruction of everything Bitcoin! I think things are progressing as well as one could expect for a disruptive tech like Bitcoin.

This is a place to talk about Bitcoin, not rage at someone talking about a possible realistic future.

Bye.

You've brought nothing new to the conversation (which is about 4 years old now).

I'm just pointing out that fact. I'm trying to figure out why you think you've come across some revelation about the future when all you've done is regurgitate the ramblings of a previous dead horse beater.

You just complain without offering any alternative.

You too.

Bai.  

No, I've offered you an alternative. Build the system you think competes with Bitcoin and give it to the world! That's much better than rehashing 4 year old topics and acting like it's some urgent thing.

**PUBLIC ALERT**

I wouldn't say that an alternative is needed (but we are allowed to discuss the current offering, aren't we??).

The evolution of Bitcoin seems to be moving away from decentralization and heading towards a FIAT system (an online FIAT system). I don't see anything wrong with discussing this today even if it's a 4 year old discussion. Bitcoin is evolving. Aren't we allowed to discuss that evolution and speculate on where it's headed?

Next year Bitcoin will have evolved some more and I'll be happy to discuss this topic again at that time based on where Bitcoin is at that time. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[kokojie]

Make a mining heater, and I'll start mining. I spend some kW on heating anyway.

It won't work, since the hardware is much more expensive than a regular heater, and you only still use it in winter. Therefore ROI on the hardware is impossible, even considering the subsidized electricity. You'd lose money vs buying a regular heater. This will only work if you for some reason use the heater 24/7 all year.

Also, I don't think the purpose of this thread is "how to save miner money". Even with a 24/7 heater miner, Bitcoin eco-system is still paying for your hardware/electricity and value is transferred out of the eco-system.

[Elwar]

[Sheldor333]

You do realize there is no way around it. Even if you limited amount per computer/ip address that can be mined in a day these people have money and would just do it on a larger scale and we would have the same problem once more.

[johnyj]

Make a mining heater, and I'll start mining. I spend some kW on heating anyway.

It won't work, since the hardware is much more expensive than a regular heater, and you only still use it in winter. Therefore ROI on the hardware is impossible, even considering the subsidized electricity. You'd lose money vs buying a regular heater. This will only work if you for some reason use the heater 24/7 all year.

Also, I don't think the purpose of this thread is "how to save miner money". Even with a 24/7 heater miner, Bitcoin eco-system is still paying for your hardware/electricity and value is transferred out of the eco-system.

Once mass produced, hardware will be as cheap as today's old PCs, cost very little. And, you can build that into a warm water heating device, which provide warm water 24/7 for hundreds of apartment, hotels etc...

There must be a cost to produce coin, which in the long run, is electricity. That will be the balance point of exchange rate. If you build a car that cost 10K dollar, you will not sell it for anything less, that is the way the coin's value is backed by its cost. And only by doing so will make sure other new people are willing to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollar to acquire one bitcoin

[Interized]

Your only in it for you so I dont expect you to get it.

Until we evolve into a hive mind, that's how things are going to have to work. I'm in it because I value my freedom, you are damn right.

Pea brain. If you are free and your children are enslaved what good is it? Altruism is a selfish act.  In other words what good is my freedom if my brother is enslaved?

Did you think that I would value my freedom above that of my children? Stop assuming things about me. My children will have every ounce of knowledge that I've acquired, plus their youth with which to use it.

I can't force you to choose correctly, nor would I presume to do so. Apparently you think you know what is best for not only me, but my children, and the rest of humanity.

Cant see the forest for the trees.

Perhaps. I've never claimed to have the answers for the forest nor for the trees. I only claim to do what I think is best for me and those around me. I will continue to use Bitcoin as a censorship-proof asset until (if) something better comes along. When I see threads devoted to deriding Bitcoin for the same old tired reasons, I will continue to question them and ask for a viable alternative, otherwise, what is the point?

I am genuinely quite impressed with your patience towards these chaps Holliday.

I can never understand why these kinds of people, who obviously dislike bitcoin and those who use/work with it and would like to see it fail, for some reason which only they can understand, hang out online in bitcoin forums; it truly boggles my mind.

If they were here to point out issues with the protocol because they wanted to help fix them or ask the community for help then I could understand, but to just spout nonsense about guaranteed failure, well, I certainly do not do such things in places I can choose to freely not participate in. What a waste of time & energy.

I love Bitcoin, problem is you have people like you and Holiday that give BTC a bad name by acting all cult-like towards this currently existing system.

You guys are exactly the type of people that would blow up in a conversation in the real world when hearing the TINIEST negative thing about Bitcoin.

Grow up and face reality.

[KIRAZ]

In a sense i agree with that. Every time someone asks me about buying some haslets or purchasing the hardware itself my vote goes to
owning the hardware but now i got one more reason for "why to".

[sublime5447]

Your only in it for you so I dont expect you to get it.

Until we evolve into a hive mind, that's how things are going to have to work. I'm in it because I value my freedom, you are damn right.

Pea brain. If you are free and your children are enslaved what good is it? Altruism is a selfish act.  In other words what good is my freedom if my brother is enslaved?

Did you think that I would value my freedom above that of my children? Stop assuming things about me. My children will have every ounce of knowledge that I've acquired, plus their youth with which to use it.

I can't force you to choose correctly, nor would I presume to do so. Apparently you think you know what is best for not only me, but my children, and the rest of humanity.

Cant see the forest for the trees.

Perhaps. I've never claimed to have the answers for the forest nor for the trees. I only claim to do what I think is best for me and those around me. I will continue to use Bitcoin as a censorship-proof asset until (if) something better comes along. When I see threads devoted to deriding Bitcoin for the same old tired reasons, I will continue to question them and ask for a viable alternative, otherwise, what is the point?

I am genuinely quite impressed with your patience towards these chaps Holliday.

I can never understand why these kinds of people, who obviously dislike bitcoin and those who use/work with it and would like to see it fail, for some reason which only they can understand, hang out online in bitcoin forums; it truly boggles my mind.

If they were here to point out issues with the protocol because they wanted to help fix them or ask the community for help then I could understand, but to just spout nonsense about guaranteed failure, well, I certainly do not do such things in places I can choose to freely not participate in. What a waste of time & energy.

I love Bitcoin, problem is you have people like you and Holiday that give BTC a bad name by acting all cult-like towards this currently existing system.

You guys are exactly the type of people that would blow up in a conversation in the real world when hearing the TINIEST negative thing about Bitcoin.

Grow up and face reality.

Its very annoying, but less and less of them as the price continues to tank, wait till its back to 20 bucks a coin.

[Interized]

I wouldn't say that an alternative is needed (but we are allowed to discuss the current offering, aren't we??).

The evolution of Bitcoin seems to be moving away from decentralization and heading towards a FIAT system (an online FIAT system). I don't see anything wrong with discussing this today even if it's a 4 year old discussion. Bitcoin is evolving. Aren't we allowed to discuss that evolution and speculate on where it's headed?

Next year Bitcoin will have evolved some more and I'll be happy to discuss this topic again at that time based on where Bitcoin is at that time. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Sure, let's have a discussion.

First of all, don't come to the table saying "x needs to change or y is doomed to fail" without some kind of evidence. It's stated as a fact ("WILL fail") when in reality it is just an opinion. In this particular thread, I don't believe anyone with this opinion has even bothered to explain why it will fail. If anyone needs help with reasons, you can always read kokojie's last 500 posts. At least he has an argument other than, "its bad!" In fact, why don't we just use one of his threads? One was started just last week!

Nothing has changed (as far as mining goes) except the hardware used to mine. We had huge miners and pools back during the CPU/GPU transition many years ago. Now they use ASICs instead. We knew that was coming.

Bring something new to the table. All I hear is, "mining is bad because people want to make large mining farms". Guess what, large mining farms have expenses which an individual miner doesn't have. But this has already been pointed out many times.

Miners don't have the power to force changes on the users, so your claim of "heading towards a fiat system" doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't matter how large the mining farms get, they can't change Bitcoin. Only the economic majority can make changes to Bitcoin. If a miner attempts a change that the economic majority doesn't agree with, that miner will quickly find themselves mining on a worthless fork.

Finally, if you are so convinced that PoW is the end of Bitcoin, let us know what the alternative is. If it is PoS, well... PoS already exists, so just go use that instead of trying to change something that some of us think is working just fine. I've also advocated for a PoS fork of Bitcoin itself. I would love to see it compete head to head with the original PoW.

You are free to make as many threads as you want (what you call discussion) claiming the end of Bitcoin. I'm also free to let you know when I think those threads are redundant.

Oh god you are so beyond clueless, yes this is a forum, yes people state opinions, yes you are seriously retarded or something.

Just stop, take a breath, and learn to read.

Realize that you aren't the only person in existence.

[RoadStress]

Back when BTC was truly decentralized -- everyday users mining on any old PC -- this was a great selling point to get people on board with this type of currency. Everyone that had Bitcoin on the network was help keeping this going, but nope -- with the current METHOD used for mining has only one future, and that is eventually ending up with a few huge mining companies.

While the idea that at least several companies around the world would be mining/maintaining the network sounds okay, I still think that is very bad for Bitcoin, but that is exactly where the future for us is headed. You even have the hardware companies deciding they rather mine instead of sell to individuals.  Something needs to be changed to give THE PEOPLE back power, which was the whole point of Bitcoin.. At this point every single day Bitcoin becomes less and less for the people..

-Sqw33sh

7 pages already for this BS topic? Back when BTC was "truly decentralized" someone with a couple thousand $ could disrupt your decentralized network. It's not that hard...So what's the purpose of this topic again? For you to get rich from mining?

[Interized]

Back when BTC was truly decentralized -- everyday users mining on any old PC -- this was a great selling point to get people on board with this type of currency. Everyone that had Bitcoin on the network was help keeping this going, but nope -- with the current METHOD used for mining has only one future, and that is eventually ending up with a few huge mining companies.

While the idea that at least several companies around the world would be mining/maintaining the network sounds okay, I still think that is very bad for Bitcoin, but that is exactly where the future for us is headed. You even have the hardware companies deciding they rather mine instead of sell to individuals.  Something needs to be changed to give THE PEOPLE back power, which was the whole point of Bitcoin.. At this point every single day Bitcoin becomes less and less for the people..

-Sqw33sh

7 pages already for this BS topic? Back when BTC was "truly decentralized" someone with a couple thousand $ could disrupt your decentralized network. It's not that hard...So what's the purpose of this topic again? For you to get rich from mining?

The point is people shouldn't make money or get rich from mining, as that obviously leads to centralization. (just my OPINION - Holiday relax)

[TheLittleDuke]

The point is people shouldn't make money or get rich from mining, as that obviously leads to centralization. (just my OPINION - Holiday relax)

The TXFEE's should be based on a PERCENTAGE not a FIXED amount -- that is one of the biggest flaws IMHO that Satoshi missed :p

Fix that and then reward miners with TXfees only (which is eventually the end game)

"Miners are the guardians of the public trust" and absolutely deserve some compensatation for their service

-dvd

[sublime5447]

Back when BTC was truly decentralized -- everyday users mining on any old PC -- this was a great selling point to get people on board with this type of currency. Everyone that had Bitcoin on the network was help keeping this going, but nope -- with the current METHOD used for mining has only one future, and that is eventually ending up with a few huge mining companies.

While the idea that at least several companies around the world would be mining/maintaining the network sounds okay, I still think that is very bad for Bitcoin, but that is exactly where the future for us is headed. You even have the hardware companies deciding they rather mine instead of sell to individuals.  Something needs to be changed to give THE PEOPLE back power, which was the whole point of Bitcoin.. At this point every single day Bitcoin becomes less and less for the people..

-Sqw33sh

7 pages already for this BS topic? Back when BTC was "truly decentralized" someone with a couple thousand $ could disrupt your decentralized network. It's not that hard...So what's the purpose of this topic again? For you to get rich from mining?

The point is people shouldn't make money or get rich from mining, as that obviously leads to centralization. (just my OPINION - Holiday relax)

Man I like this guy.. You got it bro. It is the financial incentive in controlling the network that will insure that it will be controlled. It is a consequence of the scarcity model for currency.

[phillipsjk]

Finally, if you are so convinced that PoW is the end of Bitcoin, let us know what the alternative is. If it is PoS, well... PoS already exists, so just go use that instead of trying to change something that some of us think is working just fine. I've also advocated for a PoS fork of Bitcoin itself. I would love to see it compete head to head with the original PoW.

I always assumed that was a sarcastic thought experiment where you get to double your holdings (of PoW Bitcoin).

One thing I don't get with all these threads is why Bitcoin proper would be expected to drop it's one defining characteristic. We are currently conducting an experiment to find out if distributed consensus is even possible in the face of well-funded adversaries. To change the consensus mechanism mid-stream would invalidate the experimental results.

I understand that the PoW opponents think that PoW will eventually fail. If/when it does, we can learn from how much damage is actually done during the attack. Bitcoin is designed in such a way that any attack has to be ongoing to be effective. With the "Nothing at Stake" problem in PoS coins, the attacker needs only the majority of votes at a single point in time.

[sublime5447]

Finally, if you are so convinced that PoW is the end of Bitcoin, let us know what the alternative is. If it is PoS, well... PoS already exists, so just go use that instead of trying to change something that some of us think is working just fine. I've also advocated for a PoS fork of Bitcoin itself. I would love to see it compete head to head with the original PoW.

I always assumed that was a sarcastic thought experiment where you get to double your holdings (of PoW Bitcoin).

One thing I don't get with all these threads is why Bitcoin proper would be expected to drop it's one defining characteristic. We are currently conducting an experiment to find out if distributed consensus is even possible in the face of well-funded adversaries. To change the consensus mechanism mid-stream would invalidate the experimental results.

I understand that the PoW opponents think that PoW will eventually fail. If/when it does, we can learn from how much damage is actually done during the attack. Bitcoin is designed in such a way that any attack has to be ongoing to be effective. With the "Nothing at Stake" problem in PoS coins, the attacker needs only the majority of votes at a single point in time.

It wont fail it will just become irrelevant, you can still use myspace. 

[RodeoX]

pow or pos makes no difference. Coins cant be mined into existence. That won't work. Coins need to be issued into existence from trusted parties. 

I would never put a penny into some old boy network coin. They are worthless to me. The fact that anyone can compete for coins makes senses and is fair. Issuing coins is one of the big problems in monetary systems that bitcoin solves.