Bitcointalk Escrows - Trade Safely!

[Blazed]

I think there is now a lack of trusted providers that will escrow forum accounts. I hope buyers here start to realize that escrows deserve some decent payments for being trusted and offering this service. I know that Master-P scammed, but look at his trust... it was all from escrows and nothing else (not nearly as trusted as others here). When you start to look at people's trust scores and really read the feedback you will notice there are not many people who are really trusted. I know it took me years of trading and being legit to get to the point I am now (hardly anyone asks to escrow when dealing with me). It is a lot of work dealing with trades and being responsive for people here. I know if people starting tipping/paying decent I would still be escrowing/in the big 5 etc..

[TookDk]

I think there is now a lack of trusted providers that will escrow forum accounts. I hope buyers here start to realize that escrows deserve some decent payments for being trusted and offering this service. I know that Master-P scammed, but look at his trust... it was all from escrows and nothing else (not nearly as trusted as others here). When you start to look at people's trust scores and really read the feedback you will notice there are not many people who are really trusted. I know it took me years of trading and being legit to get to the point I am now (hardly anyone asks to escrow when dealing with me). It is a lot of work dealing with trades and being responsive for people here. I know if people starting tipping/paying decent I would still be escrowing/in the big 5 etc..

Well said Blazed, by giving a decent tip to the escrow is a good way to show that you appreciate the service they do for the community.

Your post reminded of the last person I recall that questioned your word

[Blazed]

I think there is now a lack of trusted providers that will escrow forum accounts. I hope buyers here start to realize that escrows deserve some decent payments for being trusted and offering this service. I know that Master-P scammed, but look at his trust... it was all from escrows and nothing else (not nearly as trusted as others here). When you start to look at people's trust scores and really read the feedback you will notice there are not many people who are really trusted. I know it took me years of trading and being legit to get to the point I am now (hardly anyone asks to escrow when dealing with me). It is a lot of work dealing with trades and being responsive for people here. I know if people starting tipping/paying decent I would still be escrowing/in the big 5 etc..

Well said Blazed, by giving a decent tip to the escrow is a good way to show that you appreciate the service they do for the community.

Your post reminded of the last person I recall that questioned your word

HA! The now famous Brewins paper...too funny.

[Quickseller]

I had spoken to kludge around a year ago, and he claimed that he would sometimes receive tips as much as 25% of the value of the trade, primarily for deals involving mining hardware, and from those who regularly use him as escrow. He also said that most people who do not use him regularly will give him a very small amount or nothing at all, especially if there is some kind of dispute that he needs to mediate.

I can report that it was very rare that I would ever receive any kind of tip above the fee that I was charging. Although the small amounts received via my fee did add up after acting as escrow for a large number of deals over time.

[SebastianJu]

I think there is now a lack of trusted providers that will escrow forum accounts. I hope buyers here start to realize that escrows deserve some decent payments for being trusted and offering this service. I know that Master-P scammed, but look at his trust... it was all from escrows and nothing else (not nearly as trusted as others here). When you start to look at people's trust scores and really read the feedback you will notice there are not many people who are really trusted. I know it took me years of trading and being legit to get to the point I am now (hardly anyone asks to escrow when dealing with me). It is a lot of work dealing with trades and being responsive for people here. I know if people starting tipping/paying decent I would still be escrowing/in the big 5 etc..

I escrow accounts when they are worth at least $50. The work you have to invest in order to not get scammed as an escrow or to prevent the buyer from being scammed otherwise doesn't match the risk of lower valued accounts. At one point in time i accepted all account escrows and it took hours per day only doing that... for a very limited usefullness.

[Dabs]

You know, the standard fee on the litecointalk forum, is 2%. At least that's what all the admins/staff charge. (I'm Dabs there, in case you look.)

[OgNasty]

I think there is now a lack of trusted providers that will escrow forum accounts. I hope buyers here start to realize that escrows deserve some decent payments for being trusted and offering this service. I know that Master-P scammed, but look at his trust... it was all from escrows and nothing else (not nearly as trusted as others here). When you start to look at people's trust scores and really read the feedback you will notice there are not many people who are really trusted. I know it took me years of trading and being legit to get to the point I am now (hardly anyone asks to escrow when dealing with me). It is a lot of work dealing with trades and being responsive for people here. I know if people starting tipping/paying decent I would still be escrowing/in the big 5 etc..

I escrow accounts when they are worth at least $50. The work you have to invest in order to not get scammed as an escrow or to prevent the buyer from being scammed otherwise doesn't match the risk of lower valued accounts. At one point in time i accepted all account escrows and it took hours per day only doing that... for a very limited usefullness.

I think account sales should be stopped or at least forced to be done in secret.  My thoughts on providing escrow for them:

Please don't ask me to escrow bitcointalk account sales.  If you do, I will call the seller a scumbag and will call you a scammer.

You know, the standard fee on the litecointalk forum, is 2%. At least that's what all the admins/staff charge. (I'm Dabs there, in case you look.)

Sounds like I need to double my fee.

[Dabs]

Sounds like I need to double my fee.

Yeah, me too. I mean, it's already on a sliding scale and there is a minimum (which makes me last on the list.) But at least I don't get requests too often which I can't handle.

Maybe I'll fix it to 2% too, with the same minimum, or even higher.

That way, I'll only get serious offers, and they won't feel a waste of time or effort for so little.

[Blazed]

Honestly, I did not realize how much effort escrowing was until I stopped. It would take at least $5 per escrow to even be worth it.

[Dabs]

Honestly, I did not realize how much effort escrowing was until I stopped. It would take at least $5 per escrow to even be worth it.

My 0.03 BTC minimum translates to about $12 now. When most people realize this, they cancel the contract and move up to someone else. Saves me the hassle.

[steveds]

Honestly, I did not realize how much effort escrowing was until I stopped. It would take at least $5 per escrow to even be worth it.

My 0.03 BTC minimum translates to about $12 now. When most people realize this, they cancel the contract and move up to someone else. Saves me the hassle.

If you are charging 0.03 btc for something that can be checked in a few minutes of time and proceed whenever you are free and have some spare time to throw away then obviously people will try & find a cheap way.

[mexxer-2]

If you are charging 0.03 btc for something that can be checked in a few minutes of time and proceed whenever you are free and have some spare time to throw away then obviously people will try & find a cheap way.

Deal that can be done in a few minutes, sure

http://pastebin.com/aitucztZ
http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=aitucztZ

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

I might as well offer my services in bitcoin based escrow.

I will issue a contract signed by my GPG key below and also in my forum signature, with the Bitcoin address embedded within the message. Please do not accept a Bitcoin address that is not GPG signed.

On the event that any problems arises, I will release the escrow to whichever party that presents me with the most convincing proof after an open discussion with others.

As a promotional offer my fee starts at 0.5% (half a percent) with no minimum until the end of August 2013. After that, regular rates apply as shown below. I will also accept tips and donations in kind (shares for example.)


Sincerely,

Dabs
18:38 PM 2013-06-15



Online Escrow Service by Dabs

Fee:
up to 100 BTC escrowed - 1%
>100 BTC escrowed - 2%

Minimum Fee: 0.1 BTC

Area:
Given my time demands this will be online only. I am located in the Philippines, Metro Manila. I move about between Las Pinas City, Muntinlupa City, Makati City, and San Pedro, Laguna.

In person fees will be 1% if you come to my country.

Armed security will be provided for >10,000 BTC escrowed if in person and in country.

Reputation:
* Owner of Philippine Company, with >180 employees.
* Registered with DTI (Department of Trade and Industry) and SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission).
* Has physical stores in more than 30 locations in SM Malls, Robinsons Department Stores, and The Landmark.
* Commissioned Officer in the Armed Forces of the Philippines with the rank of Lieutenant.
* Exempted from the nation-wide gun ban during election periods.
* Hero member Dabs.

Terms:
Dabs will not invest or otherwise in any way use funds under escrow. Escrowed funds are segregated in a single use address in an offline wallet. Escrowed funds become a debt obligation owed by Dabs until repaid. Dabs is fully responsible for any lost, stolen, hacked, or corrupted coins under escrow.

TrueCrypt Whole Drive Encryption used with 64 character memorized password. Completely air-gapped second hand laptop that has been sanitized, erase, reformatted, and installed a clean OS for this purpose only.

In case of incapacitation, I have an attorney and accountant who can act on my behalf. These instructions will be given to them in a sealed envelope and opened only in case I can not continue the escrow.

Notes:
DO NOT BRING CASH to the Philippines.
DO NOT TAKE CASH out of the Philippines.

That's what bank wires are for.

I can accept bank wires. I can send bank wires.

Non-citizens with an ACR (Alien Registration Card) can open a Philippine bank account. You can also use a trusted third party like a relative or friend, (or me.)

Both buyer and seller must accept foreign currency exchange rates if you are sending me USD that will be converted to PHP, and vice versa.

My personal bank accounts has transactions in the millions of pesos regularly. If the seller sends me a bank wire for 10,000 BTC worth it will not be a problem.


Below is a picture of me, from another thread. This is in 2009 when I got married. I am an officer and a gentleman. If you are Filipino or know someone in the military, you can show this picture to them. They won't recognize me, but they will recognize the badges and pins. They might also recognize the background as the chapel or church where I got married inside Camp General Emilio Aguinaldo, Quezon City.

On the right pocket (left looking at me) is a rifle sharpshooter badge under my name plate.

On the left pocket (right looking at me) are the light armor badge and the field artillery badge.

The yellow egg looking badge is Special Forces.

There are additional pins in my updated uniform this year.

Some portions have been blurred to prevent local insurgents and rebels from making me an assassination target.
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Here is a discussion thread as additional information
Is there a market for large escrow transactions? 10k or 100k BTC?

Light Armor means a small tank.
Field Artillery means a big gun. (105 mm diameter, or about 4 inch wide bullets.)

[steveds]

What the escrow does is not i am speaking about.But yes most of the trades on forum only require a couple of minutes to check & in your free time.
Give me one reason why in the world someone would come to a forum to escrow any amount which might require guns.
Do you think holding .25 until the buyer receives the product/goods is a biggie ?

[Cadauzarh]

Honestly, I did not realize how much effort escrowing was until I stopped. It would take at least $5 per escrow to even be worth it.

My 0.03 BTC minimum translates to about $12 now. When most people realize this, they cancel the contract and move up to someone else. Saves me the hassle.

0.03 bitcoin for a few minutes work is too expensive. That is why people are not interested in your service.

[DannyHamilton]

0.03 bitcoin for a few minutes work is too expensive. That is why people are not interested in your service.

Attitudes like yours are why some of the best and most trustworthy escrow providers are either quitting offering escrow services, raising their minimum amount escrowed, or setting higher fees.

If people took the time to think about how valuable the service is that well run and trustworthy escrow provides, and then compensated the escrow provider appropriately for the value provided then people like Blazed and myself wouldn't have stopped.

Unfortunately when everything goes smoothly, like it does 99% of the time, nobody even thinks about how much the security and peace of mind were really worth.  They tip nothing at all or less than $2 worth of bitcoins.

When I held escrows, all escrow-ed funds were held on single use paper wallets that were generated on a permanently offline computer and that were stored in a secure location.  I wrote up custom escrow agreements that laid out exactly how the transaction was expected to progress as well as laying out exactly what would happen in a variety of common situations.  I acted as mediator for disagreements between transaction participants and made a significant effort to remain fair and impartial. If I was going to be unavailable for release at any time, all parties involved were informed ahead of time. I made sure that all parties were provided with multiple ways to contact me if bitcointalk became unavailable (phone number, email address, and frequently a U.S.P.S. mailing address). All of this time and effort for between 0 BTC and 0.01 BTC most of the time.  I could earn more running a lemonade stand on a cold day in the middle of nowhere.

In the beginning I did it because I wanted to make it easier for users of the forum that didn't have any way of trusting each other to be able to engage in transactions.  I was motivated largely because there weren't many merchants or exchanges available, and if bitcoin was going to be useful, then this forum was going to be where that usefulness was proven.  Since then there are several well trusted exchanges and many large public merchants that accept bitcoin as payment.  Additionally there were several new escrow providers that I found to be sloppy and uncommunicative, yet users were flocking to them for some reason.  At that point it just didn't make sense anymore to spend time and effort for a service that clearly wasn't desired.

[Blazed]

0.03 bitcoin for a few minutes work is too expensive. That is why people are not interested in your service.

Attitudes like yours are why some of the best and most trustworthy escrow providers are either quitting offering escrow services, raising their minimum amount escrowed, or setting higher fees.

If people took the time to think about how valuable the service is that well run and trustworthy escrow provides, and then compensated the escrow provider appropriately for the value provided then people like Blazed and myself wouldn't have stopped.

Unfortunately when everything goes smoothly, like it does 99% of the time, nobody even thinks about how much the security and peace of mind were really worth.  They tip nothing at all or less than $2 worth of bitcoins.

When I held escrows, all escrow-ed funds were held on single use paper wallets that were generated on a permanently offline computer and that were stored in a secure location.  I wrote up custom escrow agreements that laid out exactly how the transaction was expected to progress as well as laying out exactly what would happen in a variety of common situations.  I acted as mediator for disagreements between transaction participants and made a significant effort to remain fair and impartial. If I was going to be unavailable for release at any time, all parties involved were informed ahead of time. I made sure that all parties were provided with multiple ways to contact me if bitcointalk became unavailable (phone number, email address, and frequently a U.S.P.S. mailing address). All of this time and effort for between 0 BTC and 0.01 BTC most of the time.  I could earn more running a lemonade stand on a cold day in the middle of nowhere.

In the beginning I did it because I wanted to make it easier for users of the forum that didn't have any way of trusting each other to be able to engage in transactions.  I was motivated largely because there weren't many merchants or exchanges available, and if bitcoin was going to be useful, then this forum was going to be where that usefulness was proven.  Since then there are several well trusted exchanges and many large public merchants that accept bitcoin as payment.  Additionally there were several new escrow providers that I found to be sloppy and uncommunicative, yet users were flocking to them for some reason.  At that point it just didn't make sense anymore to spend time and effort for a service that clearly wasn't desired.

Exactly...

I do not know about you, but it took me years to build up a reputation and become trusted. Look at Master-P for instance...he was never really all that trusted if you read his feedback. The real trusted people here have been trusted with 10x what he ever was and that trust is rare and valuable. I agree rates should somewhat depend on the value and ease of the transaction (maybe set up a fee structure of sorts). Accounts are the worst as it requires so many steps -> create an email, change email + password + delete security question + check post history + verify sellers description etc.. The end result is as Danny has mentioned you guys are left with very few reliable escrows. The funny part is all the trusted guys are not really affected since we never seem to need escrows ourselves. Anyways none of this really affects me as I no longer offer the service, but feel the people who still do should be paid better for their time. I have never used and escrow and not tipped or paid the fee they ask for.

Edit: I also started to escrow for the same reasons: help the community. I never charged a fee because I felt almost bad asking for one (was trying to do my part). After all the thankless efforts I then realized it was all for not.

Be safe out there!
 

[Dabs]

What DannyHamilton said.
What Blazed said.

0.03 bitcoin for a few minutes work is too expensive. That is why people are not interested in your service.

Free market dude. No worries. No problem.

You want a watch that tells time, you buy a Casio.

You want jewelry, then you can pay for a Rolex.

I don't sell watches. Sorry.

My last contract was for about 6 BTC, so I got 0.06 as my fee. Not worth it in my opinion, but I did it for all the reasons the other two guys above me already mentioned.

When bitcoins become more regulated, either I'm outta the business or I'm running some semi-automated thing.

[SebastianJu]

I escrow accounts when they are worth at least $50. The work you have to invest in order to not get scammed as an escrow or to prevent the buyer from being scammed otherwise doesn't match the risk of lower valued accounts. At one point in time i accepted all account escrows and it took hours per day only doing that... for a very limited usefullness.

I think account sales should be stopped or at least forced to be done in secret.  My thoughts on providing escrow for them:

I see where you come from but as far as i know this is a long ongoing discussion. At one point in time selling really was forbidden. The result was that it still happened without a change. The difference was, nobody except the traders would know about the deal.

So in order to having at least the chance to see when fishy things are happening it is a good things that mods have all the pm's in the forum to see what happened with an account. And the escrow can maybe recognize accounts when they are used in a wrong way afterwards.

Saying that, i would not touch an account on default trust. I'm not sure if i'm wrong with that since it means i don't get to know the name of that account, which is sold then anyway. The difference would be a possibly unknown account was sold and nobody trustworthy knows about.

[SebastianJu]

Honestly, I did not realize how much effort escrowing was until I stopped. It would take at least $5 per escrow to even be worth it.

My 0.03 BTC minimum translates to about $12 now. When most people realize this, they cancel the contract and move up to someone else. Saves me the hassle.

0.03 bitcoin for a few minutes work is too expensive. That is why people are not interested in your service.

I think you did not try being an escrow. If an escrow is really lucky the he has to send only a couple of pm's. Which already translates to at least a quarter hour of work. But if you have much to explain or having to check for your own safety, for example to check forum accounts and such, then you easily take hours. And that is not seldom. If you are unlucky and a free escrow then no tip comes through too.

And what you forget too is that an escrow is always at risk of being scammed or forgetting to do something to protect the buyer. Then it might be needed to pay the loss to protect your trust in the community.

[prodigy8]

devthedev is closing his escrow service after almost 2 years.

Below here is the quoted message from his escrow service thread:

Hey everyone, after almost 2 years of service to the community I will be closing Devscrow.
It was a pleasure working with everyone in the past, and I hope to see everyone around the forum.

You guys are all awesome, keep pushing for further adoption!