MT.Gox caught lying again

[Inaba]

So, I tried to get the rest of my money out of MTGOX since my last thread on the subject. I did this in two withdrawals of $3000 and $10,000.  I was assured at the time it would take 6 business days.  Well, 6 business days came and went two times over, and no money.  So I sent another support ticket to see what kind of lies and bullshit they would feed me this time, and it was a real gem:

First, I asked (nay, demanded) that they cancel the Dwolla deposits, since they clearly have no intention of honoring them, but gave them the option of sending me the funds either via wire or courier (at their expense).  I reiterated this several times over and here is the response I got:

We see that your 3,000 USD withdrawal has been processed and should now be in your account. As for your 10,000 USD withdrawal, please be advised that withdrawals over 10,000 USD take at least 2 weeks to complete. Thank you for your patience in the process.

Of course, the $3000 credited only AFTER I had sent the message to support.  I'm sure it would have never credited if I never sent a message to support.

So I responded with this:

A) It's been more than two weeks
B) It's not over $10,000, so it doesn't apply.

You apparently failed to read the paragraph I asked you to re-read until you understood it. Please read it again.

I expect a certified check or courier tomorrow, June 6th. I am tired of the lying.

Once again, pointing out that it's been over two weeks AND it was not over $10,000.

Ooops! MTGox, caught in another lie, so here's the back pedal:

Unfortunately, we regret to inform you that as we are not located in the US, we are unable to send funds via courier. The 2 weeks + interval applies to withdrawals of at least 10,000 USD and over that amount. Thank you for your patience in the process.

So now it's "$10,000 and over" ... of course, there was no mention of this at the time of withdrawal or during my previous conversation with support over the botched withdrawal last time.  Of course, no mention of the fact that it's been over two weeks anyway, so even if there was some arbitrary $10,000 limit, the timeframe has expired.

I'm sure I'll get some bullshit response to my follow up messages pointing out the fact that it's been more than two weeks and that there is no mention of some arbitrary limit.

This is why you should not use MTGox.  They are lying, they continue to lie and have absolutely no regard for customer service.  They remind me very much of some of the shadier customer service centers from the late 90's and early 2000's where the mantra was "Tell the customer anything to get them off the line." It doesn't matter if it's true or not, just tell them whatever so they shut up and we can continue to rob them.

MTGox is exceptionally dishonest and untrustworthy in the extreme.  Anyone doing business with them is eventually going to wind up burned (again).  I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of convenient security breach or hack that somehow manages to drain user accounts when there's a major problem or the insolvency of Gox actually starts things crashing down.  All the signs are there, the secretiveness, the lies and stall tactics, etc... all major indicators of internal problems that they do not want the public to know.  Just take it as a warning.

[the joint]

I cringe when I read such things.

[Garr255]

Now the real questions that should arise from reading this: Who's going to develop a completely self sufficient and decentralized exchange?

We have the currency, awesome. With the two major exchanges taking hits like this left and right (well I guess in Bitcoinica's case it was more like a punch to the groin), Bitcoin cannot remain at a stable price. OTC and p2p transactions simply cannot provide enough volume.

Let's say all exchanges are shut down. What happens to Bitcoin?

[rjk]

You do have to wonder how it is possible to continue existence when costs are so high. I doubt the various trading fees are enough to be sustainable. As for costs, I heard some numbers a while back that were amazing - $10k/month just for DDoS protection? And who knows when it comes to the rest of the infrastructure.

I dug around I'm my old IRC logs, but was unable to find another bit of information that I am sure I remember hearing - specifically that all employee salaries for this year had been set aside already before the beginning of the year. I don't remember whether that set aside amount included infrastructure costs though.

[Fuzzy]

Let's say all exchanges are shut down. What happens to Bitcoin?

That is Bitcoins end game, it becomes so universal and liquid that no one wants to bother with fiat.

[casascius]

Let's say all exchanges are shut down. What happens to Bitcoin?

That is Bitcoins end game, it becomes so universal and liquid that no one wants to bother with fiat.

In the absence of MtGox, there's a credible argument that $5 is the floor...

[ZodiacDragon84]

Let's say all exchanges are shut down. What happens to Bitcoin?

That is Bitcoins end game, it becomes so universal and liquid that no one wants to bother with fiat.

In the absence of MtGox, there's a credible argument that $5 is the floor...

I would concur

@fuzzy: there are other ways of using bitcoin besides swapping for fiat.

[MagicalTux]

Just clarifying about Dwolla, as you may all know things are changing at Dwolla, there are new conditions and we are still pending approval from Dwolla to operate with them, since it seems that now a written consent from Dwolla is required (as per their new conditions).

In the meantime we operate on Dwolla at lower speed and put more priority to keep being able to keep them as a funding and withdraw method.

All dwolla transfers are processed in a fully automated way by our servers, and the support staff has no way to push for a specific transfer to be operated at a given time. Dwolla transfer status are:

• Preparing: system is running checks to see if the transfer can be executed
• Confirmed: Transfer can be executed and is pending in queue
• Todo: Transfer is near the top of the queue and will be executed soon
• Processed: Transfer has been processed

Current observed delay with Dwolla withdraws is 6~7 days. As soon as we clarify our situation with Dwolla (they know what we do and we are working with them toward obtaining the "written consent") and know for sure our account with them will continue existing, we will be keeping funds with Dwolla again.

[Fuzzy]

Let's say all exchanges are shut down. What happens to Bitcoin?

That is Bitcoins end game, it becomes so universal and liquid that no one wants to bother with fiat.

In the absence of MtGox, there's a credible argument that $5 is the floor...

@fuzzy: there are other ways of using bitcoin besides swapping for fiat.

That's exactly my point.

[westkybitcoins]

Watching.

[repentance]

CBP in the US has been less than helpful about the "over $10k" rule.  The customs declaration form clearly asks if you're bringing more than $10,000 or equivalent amounts of currency, but the instructions include $10k in the range.  Since the people enforcing this are not "interpreters", bringing in $10k can be problematic.  It also covers "a short period of time" so $3k + $10k may be considered $13k, which will cause your bank to initiate a notification to the IRS as well.

Whether MT Gox → Dwolla → You is considered importation of currency is another matter.  I suspect a number of people are being "cautious" and creating a SNAFU.

The $10,000 limit often applies in the originating country as well as the receiving country and the mandatory reports at both ends may need to identify the origin of the funds being sent/received.  There are many things which can make transactions reportable apart from the arbitrary limit of $10,000 and keeping individual transactions under that limit doesn't guarantee that they're not required to be reported.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Interesting...

[Dabs]

I think it helps if you break down your withdrawals to amounts below $5000. (or below $10,000.)

[repentance]

I think it helps if you break down your withdrawals to amounts below $5000. (or below $10,000.)

Not necessarily.  It depends how sophisticated the software being used to detect suspicious activity is.  Really massive financial institutions can flag quite complex series of transactions which are aimed at avoiding the reporting threshold and/or disguising the origin/destination of funds.  The type of pattern which caused the system to flag would determine what investigations you made and those investigations would determine the nature of your report.

[Inaba]

All dwolla transfers are processed in a fully automated way by our servers, and the support staff has no way to push for a specific transfer to be operated at a given time. Dwolla transfer status are:

Preparing: system is running checks to see if the transfer can be executed
Confirmed: Transfer can be executed and is pending in queue
Todo: Transfer is near the top of the queue and will be executed soon
Processed: Transfer has been processed
Current observed delay with Dwolla withdraws is 6~7 days. As soon as we clarify our situation with Dwolla (they know what we do and we are working with them toward obtaining the "written consent") and know for sure our account with them will continue existing, we will be keeping funds with Dwolla again.

I find this exceptionally hard to believe, since magically my withdrawals go through AFTER contacting support with regards to the issue.  They sit in todo status forever otherwise.

Additionally, the claim of 6 - 7 days is utter BS.  Like I said, 6 BUSINESS days (not even calendar days, which is approaching 18+ now) have come and gone two times over, yet my transaction has been in todo the entire time.  So, once again, it's just lies and falsehoods.  I just hope I get the last of my funds out before the inevitable collapse of the house of cards that MTGox has built.

As an update: Still no money!  Surprise!

[wknight]

I see how.. completed doesnt mean completed.. completed means processed.. ohhh wait

[casascius]

CBP in the US has been less than helpful about the "over $10k" rule.  The customs declaration form clearly asks if you're bringing more than $10,000 or equivalent amounts of currency, but the instructions include $10k in the range.  Since the people enforcing this are not "interpreters", bringing in $10k can be problematic.  It also covers "a short period of time" so $3k + $10k may be considered $13k, which will cause your bank to initiate a notification to the IRS as well.

Whether MT Gox → Dwolla → You is considered importation of currency is another matter.  I suspect a number of people are being "cautious" and creating a SNAFU.

The realistic interpretation of >$10k for the purpose of CBP is pretty loose, and probably for a good (to them) reason.

The fact that (10000.00 > 10000.00 == false) and (10000.01 > 10000.00 == true) isn't something they care about nor are they about to.  I would guess that somebody pointing that out would raise their suspicion.  For them, the definition of >10k means "anything that looks like it might be around or over 10k, especially when combined with other transactions going the same way."  So even an amount of 8000.00 while knowing there was another 3000.00 done recently would definitely fit the bill for ">$10k" from an AML perspective.

Now, in hindsight, I have (from last year) a bunch (maybe six or seven) of ACH withdrawals via Dwolla for 9999.75 - that is, $10000 (my limit) minus their 0.25 fee.  Now I am bothered by the thought that I might have tripped some red flag somewhere - the "this person thinks he will stay under the radar by repeatedly transacting just barely under 10000 so he MUST be up to something suspicious let's go kick down his doors" radar, and that it will bring me unwarranted attention.

[paraipan]

watching...

[Inaba]

Whatever the rules are is fine as far as that goes and is for another discussion.  The problem for me is that:

A) MTGox did not mention any sort of arbitrary dollar limitation
B) Assured me repeatedly that Dwolla deposit time was 6 business days, knowing full well exactly how much I wished to withdrawal.  So even if those rules were in place, they lied in the original support ticket about the time.

Again, this just smacks of insolvency problems and them being unable to handle even modest withdrawals in a timely fashion. 

[Inaba]

Again, that's fine .. but I'm not being given a choice in this matter.  MTGox tells me they will do X, they fail to do X. Repeatedly.  It's not a one time mistake, that's my point. 

I was explicitly told by MTGox support that Dwolla withdrawals are now 6 business  days (this was AFTER the first failed attempt that took 2+ weeks that ended up with them canceling the withdrawal, leaving the money "stuck" in MTGox).  Now it's almost 3 weeks later and the money still hasn't processed through Dwolla.  I reconfirmed numerous times in the support ticket that it would take 6 business days, so there was no ambiguity or miscommunication.  It was simply outright lying on MTGox's part.