MT.Gox caught lying again

[julz]

Well, my Dwolla withdrawal processed today, magically after I rejected the request to cancel it.

Coincidences are like magic aren't they.
You'll see it how you *want* to see it I guess.

It's clear from this thread that you don't understand how inter-bank transfers work, and that your default assumption for any problem is 'gox dunnit'.

Good grief.  I don't doubt that mtgox have their fair share of inefficiencies - but this sort of ranting thread is just retarded.

Mr Potato Head. MtGox has a Dwolla account. Inaba has a Dwolla account. Moving some money from one to the other inside the Dwolla system can (and has) taken place instantly.

The fact that investors small and large are being hit with incredible delays and missing money reeks of big problems in the organization. There is nothing on the MtGox status page that indicates what the hell is going on - not that it matters though because I've caught mtgox pre-dating stuff they put up there by several days. MtGox has been as opaque as possible; they won't say what the problems are with withdrawls, they won't make available or return funds that are in their accounts even if the transfers were initiated pre-ID requirement, they won't describe how they will use and protect the identities that are being required of users. They are entering into the "do not trust" area where one might even anticipate a limited run on investor funds will be unable to be paid out. Withdraw your money now if you think you might need it mid-July (or later) would be the prudent advice to anyone that has government currency there.

Are you suggesting mtgox should pre-emptively hold massive sums in the Dwolla system for the convenience of speedy withdrawals?  Do you not see the risk in them holding funds with a 3rd party like that?  (especially one so wary of anything bitcoin-related as Dwolla is)
Also - when they do international transfers of large amounts, they can't just say 'oh.. this is all mtgox money'.  The whole point of AML stuff is that the underlying owner of the funds has to be declared.
Your idea that it's just a matter of mtgox having a Dwolla account and therefore being free to do any transfers instantly to other Dwolla users is childishly naive.

[Coinbuck @ BTCLot]

Are you suggesting mtgox should pre-emptively hold massive sums in the Dwolla system for the convenience of speedy withdrawals?  Do you not see the risk in them holding funds with a 3rd party like that?  (especially one so wary of anything bitcoin-related as Dwolla is)
Also - when they do international transfers of large amounts, they can't just say 'oh.. this is all mtgox money'.  The whole point of AML stuff is that the underlying owner of the funds has to be declared.
Your idea that it's just a matter of mtgox having a Dwolla account and therefore being free to do any transfers instantly to other Dwolla users is childishly naive.

Do you think it takes a month to top up a dwolla account even if that was the case ? 

[julz]

Are you suggesting mtgox should pre-emptively hold massive sums in the Dwolla system for the convenience of speedy withdrawals?  Do you not see the risk in them holding funds with a 3rd party like that?  (especially one so wary of anything bitcoin-related as Dwolla is)
Also - when they do international transfers of large amounts, they can't just say 'oh.. this is all mtgox money'.  The whole point of AML stuff is that the underlying owner of the funds has to be declared.
Your idea that it's just a matter of mtgox having a Dwolla account and therefore being free to do any transfers instantly to other Dwolla users is childishly naive.

Do you think it takes a month to top up a dwolla account even if that was the case ? 

I think that if you're withdrawing something like 10K to Dwolla - it's highly likely there could be delays in the international banking system, or in Dwolla itself.
I also think that if a bank or Dwolla decides to investigate a certain large transfer, they may even decide to stop processing other transfers in the queue from the same source account until it's resolved.

It's the assumption here that mtgox is the source of the delay, or even that they should somehow know the extent of a particular delay that I'm challenging.

You cannot assume that mtgox can just 'top up' an account and allocate it later.  It's quite likely that for an international funds transfer they have to explicitly list all the underlying IDs of the people to whom the funds will actually go.   These guys are pumping a lot of funds, and so are under a lot of scrutiny.

[the joint]

Are you suggesting mtgox should pre-emptively hold massive sums in the Dwolla system for the convenience of speedy withdrawals?  Do you not see the risk in them holding funds with a 3rd party like that?  (especially one so wary of anything bitcoin-related as Dwolla is)
Also - when they do international transfers of large amounts, they can't just say 'oh.. this is all mtgox money'.  The whole point of AML stuff is that the underlying owner of the funds has to be declared.
Your idea that it's just a matter of mtgox having a Dwolla account and therefore being free to do any transfers instantly to other Dwolla users is childishly naive.

Do you think it takes a month to top up a dwolla account even if that was the case ? 

I think that if you're withdrawing something like 10K to Dwolla - it's highly likely there could be delays in the international banking system, or in Dwolla itself.
I also think that if a bank or Dwolla decides to investigate a certain large transfer, they may even decide to stop processing other transfers in the queue from the same source account until it's resolved.

It's the assumption here that mtgox is the source of the delay, or even that they should somehow know the extent of a particular delay that I'm challenging.

You cannot assume that mtgox can just 'top up' an account and allocate it later.  It's quite likely that for an international funds transfer they have to explicitly list all the underlying IDs of the people to whom the funds will actually go.   These guys are pumping a lot of funds, and so are under a lot of scrutiny.

To a large extent, it doesn't even matter if Mt. Gox is the source of the delay.

Mt. Gox has clearly demonstrated time and time again utter incompetency with respect to customer service.  There have been literally dozens and dozens of complaints in the past few months alone.  Customers are left in the dark for weeks and weeks on end, or, in my case, indefinitely.

Mt. Gox outright deleted one of my accounts when I still had money in it (hardly anything, but that's beside the point).  I was given absolutely no warning, no notice, and even though I have posted about it several times on this forum, they have never responded about it to this day.

I consider this outright stealing.  I have no direct evidence of this, but it's the only assumption I can make at this point.

[Raoul Duke]

I think that if you're withdrawing something like 10K to Dwolla - it's highly likely there could be delays in the international banking system, or in Dwolla itself.

Wait, what?
I think I've heard that Dwolla only works with US bank accounts, dude...
Or are you trying to say that MtGox doesn't get enough Dwolla deposits to cover Dwolla withdrawals and needs to wire money from Japan to their US bank account to fund Dwolla?
I find that hard to believe, being Dwolla one of the most popular methods used to fund MtGox accounts with USD.

Take out your MtGox defensor costume and get back to the real world, k?

[rjk]

Dwolla does only work with US banks, but the amount being withdrawn is greater than the amount being funded with that method, so they are indeed having to wire funds to Dwolla to enable withdrawals. Still shouldn't take that long though.

[Raoul Duke]

Dwolla does only work with US banks, but the amount being withdrawn is greater than the amount being funded with that method, so they are indeed having to wire funds to Dwolla to enable withdrawals. Still shouldn't take that long though.

It shouldn't. That's correct.
MtGox says they're having trouble with US banking institutions, tho. But they also said it only affects about 5% of their costumers. Maybe it also affects them and not only their customers
Or maybe it's only affecting them, and customers get affected indirectly by the cash flow problems.
Who knows lol

[repentance]

Mt. Gox outright deleted one of my accounts when I still had money in it (hardly anything, but that's beside the point).  I was given absolutely no warning, no notice, and even though I have posted about it several times on this forum, they have never responded about it to this day.

I consider this outright stealing.  I have no direct evidence of this, but it's the only assumption I can make at this point.

Did you obtain express permission from them before opening more than one account?

Members may only have one Account at any one time and may not create or use any Account other than their own. For a Member to be exempt from any of these rules, he/she must request express and prior permission from the Platform. The creation or use of Accounts without obtaining such prior express permission from the Platform will lead to the immediate suspension of all said Accounts, as well as all pending purchase/sale offers.

Dwolla does only work with US banks, but the amount being withdrawn is greater than the amount being funded with that method, so they are indeed having to wire funds to Dwolla to enable withdrawals. Still shouldn't take that long though.

It's absolutely possible that either their Japanese bank or their US bank imposes a monthly limit on how much they can wire transfer.  Just as the exchanges set limits for different levels of users, so do banks  - and a Bitcoin exchange is going to automatically be regarded as high-risk for both fraud and money laundering and subjected to more stringent limits.  

In MtGox's position, until it's clear whether Dwolla is going to continue their business relationship and on what terms, the most sensible course of action to protect user funds is to keep a minimum amount of money on Dwolla and transfer funds into the account on an as-needed basis.  The other option would be for them to cease Dwolla transactions until Dwolla clarifies their intention, but people would bitch and moan about that even more than they do about the delays.

Dwolla's delay in clarifying their intentions regarding trading with MtGox is ridiculous.

[the joint]

Mt. Gox outright deleted one of my accounts when I still had money in it (hardly anything, but that's beside the point).  I was given absolutely no warning, no notice, and even though I have posted about it several times on this forum, they have never responded about it to this day.

I consider this outright stealing.  I have no direct evidence of this, but it's the only assumption I can make at this point.

Did you obtain express permission from them before opening more than one account?

Members may only have one Account at any one time and may not create or use any Account other than their own. For a Member to be exempt from any of these rules, he/she must request express and prior permission from the Platform. The creation or use of Accounts without obtaining such prior express permission from the Platform will lead to the immediate suspension of all said Accounts, as well as all pending purchase/sale offers.

That's the thing.  I didn't have more than one account.  I only created a 2nd one (and have never even used it, simply created it) after I found out that my first account was gone and irretrievable.  How did I know it was gone?  Well, I had my account name and password saved in 3 different locations (both of which were over 20+ random characters, numbers, and symbols) and copying and pasting them from all 3 locations (to make sure I didn't make a mistake somewhere) didn't work.  Also, password retrieval didn't work even after multiple attempts.  It simply appears as if my email address and account were nowhere to be found in their database.  Also, my email password is also 20+ random characters, numbers, and symbols, and is backed by 2-factor authentication.

[TheFootMan]

MTGox is exceptionally dishonest and untrustworthy in the extreme.  Anyone doing business with them is eventually going to wind up burned (again).  I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of convenient security breach or hack that somehow manages to drain user accounts when there's a major problem or the insolvency of Gox actually starts things crashing down.  All the signs are there, the secretiveness, the lies and stall tactics, etc... all major indicators of internal problems that they do not want the public to know.  Just take it as a warning.

Inaba wasn't goxed.

(I will refrain from commenting on his other dealings on this forum.)

[mufa23]

MTGox is exceptionally dishonest and untrustworthy in the extreme.  Anyone doing business with them is eventually going to wind up burned (again).  I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of convenient security breach or hack that somehow manages to drain user accounts when there's a major problem or the insolvency of Gox actually starts things crashing down.  All the signs are there, the secretiveness, the lies and stall tactics, etc... all major indicators of internal problems that they do not want the public to know.  Just take it as a warning.

Wow, Josh called it spot on nearly two years early.

[jojo69]

MTGox is exceptionally dishonest and untrustworthy in the extreme.  Anyone doing business with them is eventually going to wind up burned (again).  I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of convenient security breach or hack that somehow manages to drain user accounts when there's a major problem or the insolvency of Gox actually starts things crashing down.  All the signs are there, the secretiveness, the lies and stall tactics, etc... all major indicators of internal problems that they do not want the public to know.  Just take it as a warning.

Wow, Josh called it spot on nearly two years early.

pretty funny though if you take that quote and replace "Gox" with "BFL"

[Bobsurplus]

So, I tried to get the rest of my money out of MTGOX since my last thread on the subject. I did this in two withdrawals of $3000 and $10,000.  I was assured at the time it would take 6 business days.  Well, 6 business days came and went two times over, and no money.  So I sent another support ticket to see what kind of lies and bullshit they would feed me this time, and it was a real gem:

First, I asked (nay, demanded) that they cancel the Dwolla deposits, since they clearly have no intention of honoring them, but gave them the option of sending me the funds either via wire or courier (at their expense).  I reiterated this several times over and here is the response I got:

We see that your 3,000 USD withdrawal has been processed and should now be in your account. As for your 10,000 USD withdrawal, please be advised that withdrawals over 10,000 USD take at least 2 weeks to complete. Thank you for your patience in the process.

Of course, the $3000 credited only AFTER I had sent the message to support.  I'm sure it would have never credited if I never sent a message to support.

So I responded with this:

A) It's been more than two weeks
B) It's not over $10,000, so it doesn't apply.

You apparently failed to read the paragraph I asked you to re-read until you understood it. Please read it again.

I expect a certified check or courier tomorrow, June 6th. I am tired of the lying.

Once again, pointing out that it's been over two weeks AND it was not over $10,000.

Ooops! MTGox, caught in another lie, so here's the back pedal:

Unfortunately, we regret to inform you that as we are not located in the US, we are unable to send funds via courier. The 2 weeks + interval applies to withdrawals of at least 10,000 USD and over that amount. Thank you for your patience in the process.

So now it's "$10,000 and over" ... of course, there was no mention of this at the time of withdrawal or during my previous conversation with support over the botched withdrawal last time.  Of course, no mention of the fact that it's been over two weeks anyway, so even if there was some arbitrary $10,000 limit, the timeframe has expired.

I'm sure I'll get some bullshit response to my follow up messages pointing out the fact that it's been more than two weeks and that there is no mention of some arbitrary limit.

This is why you should not use MTGox.  They are lying, they continue to lie and have absolutely no regard for customer service.  They remind me very much of some of the shadier customer service centers from the late 90's and early 2000's where the mantra was "Tell the customer anything to get them off the line." It doesn't matter if it's true or not, just tell them whatever so they shut up and we can continue to rob them.

MTGox is exceptionally dishonest and untrustworthy in the extreme.  Anyone doing business with them is eventually going to wind up burned (again).  I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of convenient security breach or hack that somehow manages to drain user accounts when there's a major problem or the insolvency of Gox actually starts things crashing down.  All the signs are there, the secretiveness, the lies and stall tactics, etc... all major indicators of internal problems that they do not want the public to know.  Just take it as a warning.

FUCKYOU!! nobody cares about you or what you lost due to mtgox! BFL SUCKS4LIFE!

[TheFootMan]

...

FUCKYOU!! nobody cares about you or what you lost due to mtgox! BFL SUCKS4LIFE!

I understand your anger here. I was never involved with BFL as a customer, because I watched from the sidelines, and what I could see did not look good, it was about as bad as what Inaba said about MtGox. Kind of weird that he foresaw MtGox's demise like this, but at the same time participated in pretty much the same kind of bs with BFL. Perhaps it was the money? Or perhaps it started legit, and then he just got suckered in, and either was blinded by profit or showed his true personality. I don't know at all. But he was right about Gox for sure.

[Bobsurplus]

...

FUCKYOU!! nobody cares about you or what you lost due to mtgox! BFL SUCKS4LIFE!

I understand your anger here. I was never involved with BFL as a customer, because I watched from the sidelines, and what I could see did not look good, it was about as bad as what Inaba said about MtGox. Kind of weird that he foresaw MtGox's demise like this, but at the same time participated in pretty much the same kind of bs with BFL. Perhaps it was the money? Or perhaps it started legit, and then he just got suckered in, and either was blinded by profit or showed his true personality. I don't know at all. But he was right about Gox for sure.

He may be right about gox but I lost over 30K buying into the BFL hype. I wont go into to much detail but lets just say I wish the same harm to the BFL team that I do to the MtGox team.

[cyrpi4]

It is becoming a usual thing so I'm not surprised they are lying again. It's like their unique company's policy to work with clients.