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Author Topic: The BitcoinCard : Vienna, Austria Workshop  (Read 13066 times)
evoorhees
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Democracy is the original 51% attack


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June 11, 2012, 05:07:44 PM
 #61

Alot of the technical aspects we all had to sign a non-confidentiality however Erik (who is a MUCH better writer than I am has been preparing a blog post)

Is that the opposite of a non-disclosure agreement?


LOL yes Matt you got Charlie there Wink  It was indeed a non-disclosure agreement that we signed. We are basically allowed to talk about functionality, appearance, pricing etc, but not about some of the technical specs of the internal components (many of which were developed in house by their team). Since I can't understand tech specs anyway (beyond my expertise) I wouldn't be able to divulge that info regardless Smiley
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June 11, 2012, 05:08:20 PM
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Watching this!
I think this kind of technology is going to shut up many of the naysayers. Oh look, my Bitcoin gadget is also a mesh-net device. So cool.

“Banking doesn’t involve fraud, banking IS fraud.”
- Tim Madden
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Democracy is the original 51% attack


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June 11, 2012, 05:10:42 PM
 #63

Anyone in the electronics industry can tell you that the e-ink screen, radio transmitter/receiver and other functions of the device cannot be run by such a small solar panel, in fact, it would need a battery the size of the whole card just to run an hour more than likely.

On this point Matthew you are incorrect 100%. The device IS ONLY SOLAR POWERED. It doesn't/can't plug into anything. Yet, has a screen and transmitter and provides all the functionality discussed. I asked them how long it could go without any sunlight and the answer was "several months". In fact it is so power-efficient that the retail version (production model) can enable it to power itself from occasional bending (bending the device back and forth to charge it) or even from pushing the buttons during normal usage.

Power is not a problem with these.
Matthew N. Wright
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June 11, 2012, 05:11:26 PM
 #64

Alot of the technical aspects we all had to sign a non-confidentiality however Erik (who is a MUCH better writer than I am has been preparing a blog post)

Is that the opposite of a non-disclosure agreement?


LOL yes Matt you got Charlie there Wink  It was indeed a non-disclosure agreement that we signed. We are basically allowed to talk about functionality, appearance, pricing etc, but not about some of the technical specs of the internal components (many of which were developed in house by their team). Since I can't understand tech specs anyway (beyond my expertise) I wouldn't be able to divulge that info regardless Smiley

Does that NDA cover explaining how anything works? If you say that it can fly but someone asks "how", is that something under the NDA? The video on Vimeo that they "drifted" into the public is heavily cropped and does not give a clear indication of any actual activity. So the first question is this:

1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?

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Democracy is the original 51% attack


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June 11, 2012, 05:16:33 PM
 #65


1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


Yes I saw it do this with my own eyes. Though the screen on these prototypes is not backlit so if you were in darkness you couldn't see the screen.
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June 11, 2012, 05:20:20 PM
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1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


Yes I saw it do this with my own eyes. Though the screen on these prototypes is not backlit so if you were in darkness you couldn't see the screen.

2) How many transmissions can you make before the battery runs out and does it require a full recharging if you actually use it all day?

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Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem


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June 11, 2012, 05:21:34 PM
 #67

Charlie, could you give us some tx IDs of some of your test transactions with them?

Ah! I'm an idiot for not getting that! I'm meeting them later for dinner so will get a few of the tx's.

There's a pic on my blog of us testing: http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/6/8/bitcoincard-in-vienna-day-1-coffee-missing-atms-and-some-tes.html

With that much money behind it I assume it's not meant for Bitcoin use exclusively, or?

Interesting thought. So, they've been developing this for about 5 years, before Bitcoin was around.

The purpose of the card, was for an anonymous messaging system that worked on a mesh network.

For the past 2 years, they've redone their whole plan to exclusively do this for Bitcoin. The device still does messaging.

Intersagno, Bitstamp, Bitcoin Austria, Gavin, Erik, Roger, myself and many others have been tinkering and discussing with these guys the past 3 days.

They want to rely heavily on your and our input on this, and we're planning a test rollout by Q1 2013 of a few thousand pieces.

Alot of the technical aspects we all had to sign a non-confidentiality however Erik (who is a MUCH better writer than I am has been preparing a blog post)

Is that the opposite of a non-disclosure agreement?


LOL yes Matt you got Charlie there Wink  It was indeed a non-disclosure agreement that we signed. We are basically allowed to talk about functionality, appearance, pricing etc, but not about some of the technical specs of the internal components (many of which were developed in house by their team). Since I can't understand tech specs anyway (beyond my expertise) I wouldn't be able to divulge that info regardless Smiley

Does that NDA cover explaining how anything works? If you say that it can fly but someone asks "how", is that something under the NDA? The video on Vimeo that they "drifted" into the public is heavily cropped and does not give a clear indication of any actual activity. So the first question is this:

1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


The NDA covers explaining the hardware and software technicalities. The device can run 1 month on 1 full solar charge.

1) YES. As I've states above, I'll get the TX ID's when I go back to the office. I think Amir and Nejc are still there though.


1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


Yes I saw it do this with my own eyes. Though the screen on these prototypes is not backlit so if you were in darkness you couldn't see the screen.

2) How many transmissions can you make before the battery runs out and does it require a full recharging if you actually use it all day?


The device has a 100-200 meter range outdoors and 50-100 indoors. Two devices can speak to each other, and once any device is comes in 200 meter range of a dongle that's connected to the internet (a standalone USB key that can be inserted into any computer) it automatically confirms the transaction and inserts it into the blockchain.

-Charlie

Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer.

More about me: http://CharlieShrem.com
Matthew N. Wright
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June 11, 2012, 05:25:15 PM
 #68

They want to rely heavily on your and our input on this, and we're planning a test rollout by Q1 2013 of a few thousand pieces.

You say "we". Are you affiliated in any way through investment, equity ownership, sales, distribution, marketing, development or any aspect of business with the Bitcoincard and/or their developers?

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June 11, 2012, 05:27:23 PM
 #69

Is not the Bitcoin card perfect for countries like Africa...

Oh and one critique. The looks dont work for it. It looks a bit too much like a toy with all those colors.  
I know what I´m talking about. Colors are good for useability. But look at the mobilephones.
People can use them anyway. There is no need for all those colors.
 
Dont underestimate the bad impact of boring design and the good impact of good looking design, it is the most common developer misstake. I have worked with some of the worlds top coders and they just dont understand the impact of design.
They make the misstake of thinking, I dont care so I really dont think anyone else cares. But its quite the opposite.
They are in a tiny minority.

People judge things by their appearance.  If it looks good, it must be good and it gives the owner status.
If it looks ugly, you dont want to flash it around.

Make one in Black and gold. People low to flash their gold VISA cards.





 



i agree with this.  i don't like all the colors.
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June 11, 2012, 05:31:54 PM
 #70

Quote from: Matthew N. Wright link=topic=85832.msg955389#msg955389
1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


have you done this with the Ellet?
Matthew N. Wright
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June 11, 2012, 05:32:50 PM
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Quote from: Matthew N. Wright link=topic=85832.msg955389#msg955389
1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


have you done this with the Ellet?

Yes of course. Why are you talking about the Ellet in this thread? There is a thread for discussions about the Ellet already,.

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1ngldh


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June 11, 2012, 05:34:52 PM
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Quote from: Matthew N. Wright link=topic=85832.msg955389#msg955389
1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


have you done this with the Ellet?

Yes of course. Why are you talking about the Ellet in this thread? There is a thread for discussions about the Ellet already,.
Because you are discussing the bitcoincard in the Ellet thread?

Seriously Matt, you sound scared shitless. If you don't want to come across that way, I suggest you keep silent.

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Matthew N. Wright
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June 11, 2012, 05:36:52 PM
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Quote from: Matthew N. Wright link=topic=85832.msg955389#msg955389
1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


have you done this with the Ellet?

Yes of course. Why are you talking about the Ellet in this thread? There is a thread for discussions about the Ellet already,.
Because you are discussing the bitcoincard in the Ellet thread?

Seriously Matt, you sound scared shitless. If you don't want to come across that way, I suggest you keep silent.

Please stop posting off-topic.

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1ngldh


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June 11, 2012, 05:37:17 PM
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Quote from: Matthew N. Wright link=topic=85832.msg955389#msg955389
1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


have you done this with the Ellet?

Yes of course. Why are you talking about the Ellet in this thread? There is a thread for discussions about the Ellet already,.
Because you are discussing the bitcoincard in the Ellet thread?

Seriously Matt, you sound scared shitless. If you don't want to come across that way, I suggest you keep silent.

Please stop posting off-topic.
NO U

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Making a better tomorrow, tomorrow.


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June 11, 2012, 05:39:05 PM
 #75

It would be a nice surprise to see bitcoincard in the next issue of Bitcoin Magazine  Shocked
Fat chance, apparently MNW is developing a competitor to it that he doesn't want anyone to know about, so he probably wouldn't allow such an article to be included.

My role at Bitcoin Magazine isn't to exclude legitimate stories of innovation in Bitcoin. It's to include legitimate news. When bitcoincard is proven to be more than just an over-hyped self-contradicting pipe dream website, I would be more than happy to write an entire piece on it for the print issue. The same goes for MintChip (which will probably end up as a colossal  failure but I hope -that- succeeds as well as it serves a purpose).

If the Ellet ever gets an article, it'll be because it's been proven, not because I have some kind of special interest in it. Your horridly inaccurate underestimation of our journalistic integrity is quite sickening. I want the same thing you want-- less bullshit and vaporware and more movement. Yet instead of bothering to build something or participate in a movement, you prefer to poke fun at me and all my personal advances in the Bitcoin economy. Classy.

Open your eyes to the facts: why don't these bitcoincard guys stick to what they say instead of completely contradicting themselves in their uberhype videos? "Doesn't rely on infrastructure"? What do you call requiring everyone in the world to hold a gateway repeater to the benefit of their neighbors? What do you call a USB dongle? Give me a break. I hope this is all clarified in this trip (that's why they're going afterall), but I'm not holding my breath because we've already found the solution and don't need to wait on anyone else.

As a community, we're all waiting to see what Erik and Charlie gather on their trip to Vienna, but I can't say I personally have much faith in any of this being more than fishing for investors for a product that markets itself as a privacy invasive DOA piece of hardware that requires a major rebuilding of a communications infrastructure just so you can be force fed ads.



Since it's using Bitcoin they probably have the whole privacy thing sown up without much problem, they'll be able to design it to track everything except your identity. I admit that to say they need no infrastructure is a bit hyperbolic (although true with just p2p) however if they work with normal wifi and if they are cheap or free I'm sure they'll catch on quickly and spread like wildfire!

It was a cunning plan to have the funny man be the money fan of the punning clan.
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June 11, 2012, 05:43:30 PM
 #76

Quote from: Matthew N. Wright link=topic=85832.msg955389#msg955389
1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


have you done this with the Ellet?

Yes of course. Why are you talking about the Ellet in this thread? There is a thread for discussions about the Ellet already,.
Because you are discussing the bitcoincard in the Ellet thread?

Seriously Matt, you sound scared shitless. If you don't want to come across that way, I suggest you keep silent.

Please stop posting off-topic.
NO U

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Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem


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June 11, 2012, 05:46:20 PM
 #77

They want to rely heavily on your and our input on this, and we're planning a test rollout by Q1 2013 of a few thousand pieces.

You say "we". Are you affiliated in any way through investment, equity ownership, sales, distribution, marketing, development or any aspect of business with the Bitcoincard and/or their developers?


Not at the moment, no.

Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer.

More about me: http://CharlieShrem.com
evoorhees
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Democracy is the original 51% attack


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June 11, 2012, 05:47:34 PM
 #78


1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


Yes I saw it do this with my own eyes. Though the screen on these prototypes is not backlit so if you were in darkness you couldn't see the screen.

2) How many transmissions can you make before the battery runs out and does it require a full recharging if you actually use it all day?


Probably thousands of transmissions, and you never "recharge" it. It maintains power through normal use. As mentioned, it cannot be plugged into anything. There are physically no ports on the device. None of this makes sense until you realize the device uses almost zero electricity to operate. Think of a digital watch which runs for many months on a tiny battery, with technology that is many years old.
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June 11, 2012, 05:49:36 PM
 #79

Can someone clear up these scenarios for me?

If a vendor/store had a USB gateway wouldnt that be enough to process POS transactions?

If there is no mesh and you send coins to your friends across town would he receive the coins if you were both next to a USB gateway?
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June 11, 2012, 05:49:45 PM
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1) Do you have proof that it actually sends bitcoins, on it's own, without being hooked up to -any- other devices, wires or batteries, after walking for 10 minutes into the forest, in a dimly lit area where trees shade the device, and your friend 5 feet away holds the same type of device?


Yes I saw it do this with my own eyes. Though the screen on these prototypes is not backlit so if you were in darkness you couldn't see the screen.

2) How many transmissions can you make before the battery runs out and does it require a full recharging if you actually use it all day?


Probably thousands of transmissions, and you never "recharge" it. It maintains power through normal use. As mentioned, it cannot be plugged into anything. There are physically no ports on the device. None of this makes sense until you realize the device uses almost zero electricity to operate. Think of a digital watch which runs for many months on a tiny battery, with technology that is many years old.

this doesn't make sense to me.  how can it "maintain power thru normal use"?
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