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Author Topic: PAJKA.BOND - 100% PPS 15Mhash mining bond  (Read 22739 times)
jjdub7
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June 07, 2013, 06:39:12 AM
 #121

PAJKA's div is 10870 satoshi@0.07      while TAT's virutualmine div is 3223 satishi@0.0072 . You do the math.....

Then if investors are smart, they'll bid up the price of TAT's bond to match the rate of return of PAJKA's within seconds of the issuance...

EDIT:  And I mean this from a two-sided perspective.  PAJKA bond-holders, DO NOT SELL.  This is classic game theory with two alternatives - either PAJKA holders will sell low or TAT holders will bid up.  If the PAJKA group holds their ask line, it should drive the TAT price up.

Also, why would TAT offer such a higher coupon (its a coupon in this case - dividends are via stocks) when he's perfectly free to match PAJKA's rate or JAH's rate on BitFunder?  To me, it seems like he's overpaying, especially with the reputation he's built up with the AM micro-PT...

"Chips, picking chips off rocky thumbnail, chips.
Horrid! And gold flushed more." - James Joyce
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June 07, 2013, 06:46:39 AM
 #122

PAJKA's div is 10870 satoshi@0.07      while TAT's virutualmine div is 3223 satishi@0.0072 . You do the math.....

Then if investors are smart, they'll bid up the price of TAT's bond to match the rate of return of PAJKA's within seconds of the issuance...

The extra zero after the decimal in the share price for TAT means TAT pays better presently.  I think hl5460 was trying to say TAT is a better deal and PAJKA is overpriced.

But what complicates the comparison is the prospect that PAJKA will, at some future date uncertain, begin receiving a 5x multiplier to its dividend.  TAT has no such prospect.


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hl5460
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June 07, 2013, 06:49:34 AM
 #123

PAJKA's div is 10870 satoshi@0.07      while TAT's virutualmine div is 3223 satishi@0.0072 . You do the math.....

Then if investors are smart, they'll bid up the price of TAT's bond to match the rate of return of PAJKA's within seconds of the issuance...

EDIT:  And I mean this from a two-sided perspective.  PAJKA bond-holders, DO NOT SELL.  This is classic game theory with two alternatives - either PAJKA holders will sell low or TAT holders will bid up.  If the PAJKA group holds their ask line, it should drive the TAT price up.

Also, why would TAT offer such a higher coupon (its a coupon in this case - dividends are via stocks) when he's perfectly free to match PAJKA's rate or JAH's rate on BitFunder?  To me, it seems like he's overpaying, especially with the reputation he's built up with the AM micro-PT...

Option 1: bid up PAJKA.
Option 2: Dump PAJKA.
Plus both TAT and PAJKA's divs are dropping dramatically as dif goes up.

furuknap
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June 07, 2013, 06:52:22 AM
 #124

PAJKA's div is 10870 satoshi@0.07      while TAT's virutualmine div is 3223 satishi@0.0072 . You do the math.....

Then if investors are smart, they'll bid up the price of TAT's bond to match the rate of return of PAJKA's within seconds of the issuance...

You assume a rational market. A market, mind you, that includes people like SOS who would rather give money away in a vain attempt to hurt someone than just walk away with money in his pocket.

PAJKA is not necessarily a better deal than TAT.VM. At some point, PAJKA will pay the equivalent (by today's standard) of 54280 satoshis per share, whereas TAT.VM is currencly paying around 30000 satoshis at a comparable price.

Will TAT.VM's 'lead' of 19K satoshis lead until BFL ships be enough to offset the lead PAJKA will get until bonds are unprofitable? That depends on when BFL ships to PAJKA. It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be, though.

.b

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June 07, 2013, 06:56:51 AM
 #125

Yes, assuming the rational market...if PAJKA holders hold, TAT's debt should increase if his bond price is bid up, making this a potentially very dangerous bet for TAT in the long run if he cannot maintain cash flows (however, I've followed TAT's activity and he seems to know what he's doing).  Yet if the ask on TAT's bonds rises, this would mean it would be much, much harder for him to initiate a buyback of his debt under his current contract...

"Chips, picking chips off rocky thumbnail, chips.
Horrid! And gold flushed more." - James Joyce
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June 07, 2013, 07:01:14 AM
 #126

And also, SOS hasn't hurt anyone.  I don't plan on selling anytime soon, so the current market conditions are irrelevant to me.  Keep in mind everyone that the bond itself isn't worth BTC...its price is determined by the PDV of future coupon payments and every market participant's preferences for liquidity and risk (risk being virtually only determined by the change in difficulty - this is where the TAT investment gets dicey IMO because there is no option to upgrade).

"Chips, picking chips off rocky thumbnail, chips.
Horrid! And gold flushed more." - James Joyce
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June 07, 2013, 09:01:27 AM
 #127

Hey xkrikl, can you give some more details on your BFL order?
Which & how many units did you order?
I assume it will restore thrust in the shares.
Thanks
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June 07, 2013, 09:07:07 AM
 #128

Hey xkrikl, can you give some more details on your BFL order?
Which & how many units did you order?
I assume it will restore thrust in the shares.
Thanks

They are bonds, not shares.

And why would you worry about what the order is? It can be from the Unicorn series of which PAJKA is the only customer. You get 15 mhs regardless.

The order number, which may indicate shipping priority, is here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86279.msg1746782#msg1746782

.b

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June 07, 2013, 09:31:22 AM
 #129

I had seen that. However he got another proposal for some jalapenos, with order nr around 18k.
Those will ship most likely in about 2 weeks ... But if he ordered a minirig, it may take way longer...
BTW, I'm not worrying. The sell panic has got me some good deals.
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June 07, 2013, 05:29:42 PM
 #130

PAJKA's div is 10870 satoshi@0.07      while TAT's virutualmine div is 3223 satishi@0.0072 . You do the math.....

Then if investors are smart, they'll bid up the price of TAT's bond to match the rate of return of PAJKA's within seconds of the issuance...

EDIT:  And I mean this from a two-sided perspective.  PAJKA bond-holders, DO NOT SELL.  This is classic game theory with two alternatives - either PAJKA holders will sell low or TAT holders will bid up.  If the PAJKA group holds their ask line, it should drive the TAT price up.

Also, why would TAT offer such a higher coupon (its a coupon in this case - dividends are via stocks) when he's perfectly free to match PAJKA's rate or JAH's rate on BitFunder?  To me, it seems like he's overpaying, especially with the reputation he's built up with the AM micro-PT...

Option 1: bid up PAJKA.
Option 2: Dump PAJKA.
Plus both TAT and PAJKA's divs are dropping dramatically as dif goes up.
Bad news for everyone buying TAT.V above 0.007 ,Because TAT has told in this forum, he will issue as many as he want...depend on the demand...another problem here, this guy is very smart...if he slowly issue new contract at 0.007 , if investors notice about it, it will caused less people willing to buy any price above 0.007... I hope you better understand the story here, TAT is continued issuing new shares...
If whole network difficult is steady increasing , during the time.... assume some one issuing another PMB with higher HASH RATE...this guy could be TAT....then it will turn to be very very difficult for current TAT.V holders to sell their BOND contract...Thus stuck in that position or sell at loss price!!!!!

PMB is god damn sick trap!!! I am happy I only lift 60 shares !!!! the only way you can win the issuer is BTC price damn drop....No body want to mining more.....the issuer takes money from you at current rate...but only needs to be pay you back at the price is damn low....!!!

if anyone think I am wrong, you better prove you are right!!!
SOSLOVE868
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June 07, 2013, 05:46:33 PM
 #131

People who mention an IPO obviously don't know the premise behind a coupon-paying bond...same thing with US treasuries, this isn't a sale of equity, but rather an open-market issuance of debt.  There's no hard cap on the number of shares that can contractually be issued  because you're not buying into physical assets/there's no equity backing the bonds (as opposed to the normal case with stocks, where the stockholder is promised his or her share of the company assets in the event of liquidation, although in many cases of BTC stocks, even this isn't promised).

Good point, and I think I'll include this in my article if you don't mind me referencing you?

.b
I believe USA treasuries has a maturity date.....but how about this one?HuhHuh?as long as mining is profitable, the difficulty will increase..and the improvement on developing those mining rigs ,is far beyond your think....If you now that ASICMINER only use 230NM technique to produce their Chips ...but the majority technique worldwide to produce chips is 5nm today(Intel or Navidian has 0.5NM)!!!!!  and if you do not believe what I said go do your math online....the difficulty has increase 26%(Even lot of miners not delivery yet)   since last time...you could use this figure to calculating what is the dividend three months later. and remember that difficulty adjust its self roughly 10 days a time.....
SOSLOVE868
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June 07, 2013, 05:51:36 PM
 #132

PAJKA's div is 10870 satoshi@0.07      while TAT's virutualmine div is 3223 satishi@0.0072 . You do the math.....

Then if investors are smart, they'll bid up the price of TAT's bond to match the rate of return of PAJKA's within seconds of the issuance...

You assume a rational market. A market, mind you, that includes people like SOS who would rather give money away in a vain attempt to hurt someone than just walk away with money in his pocket.

PAJKA is not necessarily a better deal than TAT.VM. At some point, PAJKA will pay the equivalent (by today's standard) of 54280 satoshis per share, whereas TAT.VM is currencly paying around 30000 satoshis at a comparable price.

Will TAT.VM's 'lead' of 19K satoshis lead until BFL ships be enough to offset the lead PAJKA will get until bonds are unprofitable? That depends on when BFL ships to PAJKA. It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be, though.

.b

I hope you really get your money back at today's rate.....
furuknap
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June 07, 2013, 05:51:52 PM
 #133

Thus stuck in that position or sell at loss price!!!!!

“Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind.”

PMB is god damn sick trap!!! I am happy I only lift 60 shares !!!!

It may have been a trap for you but only because you bought something you didn't understand. That is your failure, not that of the asset type.

And how to you 'lift' shares at all, not to mention these aren't shares but bonds?

You further mentioned that you held 450 'shares' just a few days ago. Are these lifting shares related to that number in any way?

if anyone think I am wrong, you better prove you are right!!!

That's not exactly how proving a claim works. It is whoever makes a claim that bears the burden of proof. However, I'm confidend that the majority understand how bonds work, even if you didn't. There is nothing for us to prove; it is you that is making the claim that this is a scam.

I hope you realize how you're looking in this forum right now and that you take a bit of time to relax, take a few steps back, and come back when you've read up on the basics.

.b

SOSLOVE868
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June 07, 2013, 06:00:35 PM
 #134

Thus stuck in that position or sell at loss price!!!!!

“Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind.”

PMB is god damn sick trap!!! I am happy I only lift 60 shares !!!!

It may have been a trap for you but only because you bought something you didn't understand. That is your failure, not that of the asset type.

And how to you 'lift' shares at all, not to mention these aren't shares but bonds?

You further mentioned that you held 450 'shares' just a few days ago. Are these lifting shares related to that number in any way?

if anyone think I am wrong, you better prove you are right!!!

That's not exactly how proving a claim works. It is whoever makes a claim that bears the burden of proof. However, I'm confidend that the majority understand how bonds work, even if you didn't. There is nothing for us to prove; it is you that is making the claim that this is a scam.

I hope you realize how you're looking in this forum right now and that you take a bit of time to relax, take a few steps back, and come back when you've read up on the basics.

.b
I am not native English speaker...If I use wrong words..just ignoring it....thanks
anyway, I just believe difficulty will increase more than 26% each ten days...because ASICs are coming...and the low technique was used for producing those chips......I did the math yesterdays....if difficulty increase 26% each ten days...then the dividend will soon become needless..(based on BTC price will increase, more and more people jumping with their ASIC).. and PMB assets only describe the shares has the right to buy it back at market price...In the long-run they absolutely has the right to pays you little dividend and perpetually holds your fund....if you think you can get dividend faster than the time your asset has loss its value...
furuknap
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June 07, 2013, 06:05:57 PM
 #135

I believe USA treasuries has a maturity date.....but how about this one?HuhHuh?

I believe the 'perpetual' part of the name had you confused?

as long as mining is profitable, the difficulty will increase..and the improvement on developing those mining rigs ,is far beyond your think....If you now that ASICMINER only use 230NM technique to produce their Chips ...but the majority technique worldwide to produce chips is 5nm today(Intel or Navidian has 0.5NM)!!!!!  and if you do not believe what I said go do your math online....the difficulty has increase 26%(Even lot of miners not delivery yet)   since last time...you could use this figure to calculating what is the dividend three months later. and remember that difficulty adjust its self roughly 10 days a time.....

Look, SOSLOVE, you are making such a fool of yourself that I'm wondering whether you are real or just a troll.

AM doesn't use 230nm. Nobody has 5nm chips anywhere and 0.5 nm is somewhat a physical impossibility as it would require splitting silicon atoms and still have silicon atoms at the end. It is estimated that a 5nm chip may come out in 2022. And even when they do, chip design isn't exchangable 1:1 for a new design.

So again you're demonstrating that you have no idea what you're talking about. I strongly suggest you stop making accusations and claims that have no basis in reality because you are easily proven wrong.

You are clearly going to lose more money if you base your investment on your own rationales so perhaps taking some time away from investing may be a good idea too? Perhaps buy into a fund instead?

.b

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June 07, 2013, 06:10:07 PM
 #136

Thus stuck in that position or sell at loss price!!!!!

“Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind.”

PMB is god damn sick trap!!! I am happy I only lift 60 shares !!!!

It may have been a trap for you but only because you bought something you didn't understand. That is your failure, not that of the asset type.

And how to you 'lift' shares at all, not to mention these aren't shares but bonds?

You further mentioned that you held 450 'shares' just a few days ago. Are these lifting shares related to that number in any way?

if anyone think I am wrong, you better prove you are right!!!

That's not exactly how proving a claim works. It is whoever makes a claim that bears the burden of proof. However, I'm confidend that the majority understand how bonds work, even if you didn't. There is nothing for us to prove; it is you that is making the claim that this is a scam.

I hope you realize how you're looking in this forum right now and that you take a bit of time to relax, take a few steps back, and come back when you've read up on the basics.

.b
increase difficulty 26% roughly equal to times 0.83 to current dividend....0.0001087X0.83(9) three months will adjust difficulty by 9 times.. after that 0.00002 ....total dividend needs to be paid for today's 4810 contracts  is 0.08 BTC..... and continue decrease......... because the contract never mentioned when the issuer will buying back.....if I am the issuer I will continued pay you the needless dividend....And do not hope anyone will buy over your contract at that time...
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June 07, 2013, 06:10:37 PM
 #137

I am not native English speaker...If I use wrong words..just ignoring it....thanks

That's fine, I'm not a native English speaker either, and I'm sure your English is better than my Spanish.

I'm still wondering what you mean by 'lifting' shares? Did you mean lost? Sold? Bought? Currently held?

and PMB assets only describe the shares has the right to buy it back at market price...In the long-run they absolutely has the right to pays you little dividend and perpetually holds your fund....if you think you can get dividend faster than the time your asset has loss its value...

Each PMB has its own set of terms that define if or when bonds are bought back. There is no general rule, except that the term perpetual usually indicates that bonds will not be bought back.

Reading up on the terms may be a good idea before you sign that contract.

.b

SOSLOVE868
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June 07, 2013, 06:15:39 PM
 #138

I am not native English speaker...If I use wrong words..just ignoring it....thanks

That's fine, I'm not a native English speaker either, and I'm sure your English is better than my Spanish.

I'm still wondering what you mean by 'lifting' shares? Did you mean lost? Sold? Bought? Currently held?

and PMB assets only describe the shares has the right to buy it back at market price...In the long-run they absolutely has the right to pays you little dividend and perpetually holds your fund....if you think you can get dividend faster than the time your asset has loss its value...

Each PMB has its own set of terms that define if or when bonds are bought back. There is no general rule, except that the term perpetual usually indicates that bonds will not be bought back.

Reading up on the terms may be a good idea before you sign that contract.

.b
I mean the current contract you still hold in your hand at that time in future...if the issuer pays needless dividend to you( not intend to buying back )  and nor body buying your contracts either, what will you do then?? I still have 61 contracts , if you really think this is a good deal, why don't you buying it ??I am offering a low price now....
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June 07, 2013, 06:18:30 PM
 #139

I still have 61 contracts , if you really think this is a good deal, why don't you buying it ??I am offering a low price now....

I already have bought a large chunk of your panic sold bonds. I have an investment profile that doesn't lend itself to further exposure right now, though.

.b

SOSLOVE868
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June 07, 2013, 06:21:36 PM
 #140

I am not native English speaker...If I use wrong words..just ignoring it....thanks

That's fine, I'm not a native English speaker either, and I'm sure your English is better than my Spanish.

I'm still wondering what you mean by 'lifting' shares? Did you mean lost? Sold? Bought? Currently held?

and PMB assets only describe the shares has the right to buy it back at market price...In the long-run they absolutely has the right to pays you little dividend and perpetually holds your fund....if you think you can get dividend faster than the time your asset has loss its value...

Each PMB has its own set of terms that define if or when bonds are bought back. There is no general rule, except that the term perpetual usually indicates that bonds will not be bought back.

Reading up on the terms may be a good idea before you sign that contract.

.b
So the only things here is I did math yesterday, I did calculation from a website...is chinese , but you can translator . for 3M HASH per 0.1 BTC take 4655 days to recovery all initial principle...based on each 12 days the difficulty will increase 10%...
http://mining.btcfans.com/
this is the website I used, it is Chinese...but you can check it out by you self...
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