PAJKA.BOND - 100% PPS 15Mhash mining bond

[xkrikl]

Recently moved to new exchange: BTCT.CO

NEW CONTRACT
The holder of this bond will receive as coupons a number of bitcoins equivalent
to at least 100% PPS output of 1.5 MH/s, for as long as they hold the bond.
Dividends are paid at least weekly in bitcoins. The issuer can buy back the
bond at any time at a price equal to 110% of the average price the asset was
traded on BTC.CO over the prior 15 days.

The bonds will be upgraded for free to 3Mhash/s per bond when ASICMINER fully deploys the first 12TH/s. - already met
The bonds will be upgraded for free to 15Mhash/s per bond when ordered ASICs are delivered to us. - already met

PAJKA.BOND (issued on GLBSE) is a perpetual mining bond where you can buy mining power and receive weekly mining payouts.

Bond features:
 - each share represents 0.33 Mhash/s mining power
 - weekly daily payouts are 110% of PPS (promotional 120% PPS payout during June, July, August and September)
 - buyback at 110% of 15 day GLBSE average price

I'm fully GLBSE verified.

IPO will be on Monday June 11th at 05:56:42 GLBSE time at 0.1 BTC per share

The payout formula is as follows:
daily dividend = 1.10*330000*86400*B/(D*2^32)
daily dividend = 1.20*330000*86400*B/(D*2^32) ... during the promotional period when 120% PPS will be paid
in which:
  B is the block reward, which is 50BTC now,
  D is the difficulty of that day (if the difficulty changes that day then it's simple average of the new one and the old one).

This offer represents at current difficulty (D = 1,583,178):
daily payout of 0.00025159 BTC per share
daily ROI 0.25159%
weekly ROI 1.76113%
monthly ROI 7.5477%

[1715579009]

1715579009

[xkrikl]

____________
Week 1 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.03069276	BTC for	122	shares representing daily ROI	0.25158%
Week 1 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.07069398	BTC for	281	shares representing daily ROI	0.25158%
Week 1 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.07949928	BTC for	316	shares representing daily ROI	0.25158%
Week 1 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.07975086	BTC for	317	shares representing daily ROI	0.25158%
Week 1 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.08830458	BTC for	351	shares representing daily ROI	0.25158%
Week 1 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.08830458	BTC for	351	shares representing daily ROI	0.25158%
Week 1 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.08830458	BTC for	351	shares representing daily ROI	0.25158%

Total after 1 week of dividends representing weekly ROI 1.76106%

____________
Week 2 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.08855616	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.25158%
Week 2 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.08855616	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.25158%
Week 2 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.08855616	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.25158%
Week 2 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.08855616	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.25158%
Week 2 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.08119936	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.23068%
Week 2 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.08119936	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.23068%
Week 2 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.08119936	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.23068%

Total after 2 weeks of dividends representing average weekly ROI 1.72971%

____________
Week 3 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.08119936	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.23068%
Week 3 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.08119936	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.23068%
Week 3 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.08119936	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.23068%
Week 3 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.08119936	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.23068%
Week 3 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.08119936	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.23068%
Week 3 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.08119936	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.23068%
Week 3 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.08119936	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.23068%

Total after 3 weeks of dividends representing average weekly ROI 1.69139%

____________
Week 4 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.08119936	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.23068%
Week 4 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.08119936	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.23068%
Week 4 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.08119936	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.23068%
Week 4 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.08119936	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.23068%
Week 4 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.08119936	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.23068%
Week 4 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.08004832	BTC for	352	shares representing daily ROI	0.22741%
Week 4 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.08073055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.22741%

Total after 4 weeks of dividends representing average weekly ROI 1.67060%

____________
Week 5 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.08073055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.22741%
Week 5 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.08073055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.22741%
Week 5 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.08073055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.22741%
Week 5 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.08073055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.22741%
Week 5 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.08073055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.22741%
Week 5 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.08073055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.22741%
Week 5 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.08073055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.22741%

Total after 5 weeks of dividends representing average weekly ROI 1.65485%

____________
Week 6 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.07816390	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.22018%
Week 6 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.07576055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.21341%
Week 6 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.07576055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.21341%
Week 6 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.07576055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.21341%
Week 6 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.07576055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.21341%
Week 6 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.07576055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.21341%
Week 6 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.07576055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.21341%

Total after 6 weeks of dividends representing average weekly ROI 1.62915%

____________
Week 7 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.07576055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.21341%
Week 7 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.07576055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.21341%
Week 7 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.07576055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.21341%
Week 7 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.07576055	BTC for	355	shares representing daily ROI	0.21341%
Week 7 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.07704101	BTC for	361	shares representing daily ROI	0.21341%
Week 7 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.09816860	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.21341%
Week 7 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.09388600	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.20410%

Total after 7 weeks of dividends representing average weekly ROI 1.60849%

____________
Week 8 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.08995760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.19556%
Week 8 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.08995760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.19556%
Week 8 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.08995760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.19556%
Week 8 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.08995760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.19556%
Week 8 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.08995760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.19556%
Week 8 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.08995760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.19556%
Week 8 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.08995760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.19556%

Total after 8 weeks of dividends representing average weekly ROI 1.57854%

____________
Week 9 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.08995760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.19556%
Week 9 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.08995760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.19556%
Week 9 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.08995760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.19556%
Week 9 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.08995760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.19556%
Week 9 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.08995760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.19556%
Week 9 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.08667780	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.18843%
Week 9 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.08362800	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.18180%

Total after 9 weeks of dividends representing average weekly ROI 1.55293%

_____________
Week 10 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.08362800	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.18180%
Week 10 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.08362800	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.18180%
Week 10 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.08362800	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.18180%
Week 10 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.08362800	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.18180%
Week 10 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.08362800	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.18180%
Week 10 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.08362800	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.18180%
Week 10 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.08362800	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.18180%

Total after 10 weeks of dividends representing average weekly ROI 1.52489%

_____________
Week 11 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.08362800	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.18180%
Week 11 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.08362800	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.18180%
Week 11 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.08362800	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.18180%
Week 11 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.08362800	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.18180%
Week 11 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.07911540	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.17199%
Week 11 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.07506740	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.16319%
Week 11 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.07506740	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.16319%

Total after 11 weeks of dividends representing average weekly ROI 1.49768%

_____________
Week 12 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.07506740	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.16319%
Week 12 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.07506740	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.16319%
Week 12 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.07506740	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.16319%
Week 12 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.07506740	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.16319%
Week 12 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.07506740	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.16319%
Week 12 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.07506740	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.16319%
Week 12 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.07506740	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.16319%

Total after 12 weeks of dividends representing average weekly ROI 1.46807%

_____________
Week 13 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.07506740	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.16319%
Week 13 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.07506740	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.16319%
Week 13 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.07136440	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.15514%
Week 13 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.06800640	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.14784%
Week 13 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.06800640	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.14784%
Week 13 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.06800640	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.14784%
Week 13 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.06800640	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.14784%

Total after 13 weeks of dividends representing average weekly ROI 1.43767%

_____________
Week 14 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.06800640	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.14784%
Week 14 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.06800640	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.14784%
Week 14 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.06800640	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.14784%
Week 14 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.06800640	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.14784%
Week 14 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.06800640	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.14784%
Week 14 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.06800640	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.14784%
Week 14 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.06800640	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.14784%

Total after 14 weeks of dividends representing average weekly ROI 1.40890%

_____________
Week 15 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.06800640	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.14784%
Week 15 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.06592720	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.14332%
Week 15 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.06396760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.13906%
Week 15 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.06396760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.13906%
Week 15 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.06396760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.13906%
Week 15 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.06396760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.13906%
Week 15 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.06396760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.13906%

Total after 15 weeks of dividends representing average weekly ROI 1.38074%

_____________
Week 16 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.06396760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.13906%
Week 16 Day 2	Coupon payment totaling	0.06396760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.13906%
Week 16 Day 3	Coupon payment totaling	0.06396760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.13906%
Week 16 Day 4	Coupon payment totaling	0.06396760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.13906%
Week 16 Day 5	Coupon payment totaling	0.06396760	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.13906%
Week 16 Day 6	Coupon payment totaling	0.05863620	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.12747%
Week 16 Day 7	Coupon payment totaling	0.05863620	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.12747%

Total after 16 weeks of dividends representing average weekly ROI 1.35383%

_____________
Week 17 Day 1	Coupon payment totaling	0.05863620	BTC for	460	shares representing daily ROI	0.12747%

GLBSE closed down on Oct 4th. 460 shares outstanding to date.

As of 31.1.2013 unpaid dividends amount is 0.009984962 BTC per share.

[Sukrim]

Title:

Re: [GLBSE] PAJKA.BOND - 120% PPS 0.33Mhash mining bond

Text:

PAJKA.BOND (issued on GLBSE) is a perpetual mining bond where you can buy mining power and receive weekly mining payouts.

Bond features:
 - each share represents 0.33 Mhash/s mining power
 - weekly payouts are 110% of PPS
 - buyback at 110% of 15 day GLBSE average price

Also again: please stop the silly "OVER 100% PPS!" bonds already!

110% PPS of 0.33 MH/s is simply 0.363 MH/s 100% PPS.
120% PPS of 0.33 MH/s is simply 0.396 MH/s 100% PPS.

I really start to consider offering 100000% PPS of 1 KH/s bonds...

All that numbers bigger than 100% PPS seem to imply to me is that you intend to oversell your actual mining capacity (= you have 0.33 MH/s but you intend to pay more than 100% PPS from these) which would make me more sceptic than you offering 100% PPS.

As well as in nearly every other mining bond:

• Will you verify fully with GLBSE?
• Please post pictures asap of your mining hardware including some handwritten note to be sure it's from you
• Do you have measures in place how you can guarantee that you actually do own the hash rate claimed (pool payout monitors, a verified payout address from a pool that you mine in, pictures, ) and not just go Ponzi, pay the ~1% per week from deposits and after half a year take a run?
• How much hash rate do you actually own right now and what would the money you raise be used for?
• Please post the exact formula you wil use to determine "100% PPS" (if you don't have one yourself, the one used by MOORE seems to me the most comprehensively written + correct one)
• When and for how much per share and how many shares will the IPO be?

[EskimoBob]

powerpuff'n* unless no validation etc asked by Sukrim


----
* - beats "sub" hands down.

[Lumpy]

Don't listen to this guy! My upcoming bond, LUMPY.BOND, is better because it:

-offers 150% PPS paid daily
-runs on the new Bitforce SC
-grows at 7% weekly
-will pay out for AT LEAST two months

The IPO will be for 2.1 million shares at 1 BTC each. Yes, I am aware that that is 10% of all Bitcoins ever mined. Each share will be one Über hash (Üh). And did I mention that we are running off of hamster energy?

[hashking]

Don't listen to this guy! My upcoming bond, LUMPY.BOND, is better because it:

-offers 150% PPS paid daily
-runs on the new Bitforce SC
-grows at 7% weekly
-will pay out for AT LEAST two months

The IPO will be for 2.1 million shares at 1 BTC each. Yes, I am aware that that is 10% of all Bitcoins ever mined. Each share will be one Über hash (Üh). And did I mention that we are running off of hamster energy?

Hamster energy is still not free.  You have to feed them and give them water.  Might actually be more expensive as you will need more then one hamster per wheel as they probably wont be able to run 24 hours a day.  Just a thought. 

[exahash]

Don't listen to this guy! My upcoming bond, LUMPY.BOND, is better because it:

-offers 150% PPS paid daily
-runs on the new Bitforce SC
-grows at 7% weekly
-will pay out for AT LEAST two months

The IPO will be for 2.1 million shares at 1 BTC each. Yes, I am aware that that is 10% of all Bitcoins ever mined. Each share will be one Über hash (Üh). And did I mention that we are running off of hamster energy?

Hamster energy is still not free.  You have to feed them and give them water.  Might actually be more expensive as you will need more then one hamster per wheel as they probably wont be able to run 24 hours a day.  Just a thought. 

We use the waste heat from the mining rigs to grow hamster food (which requires far more heat than light).  Their feces fertilize the hamster food plants.  Water comes from the creek out back.  Rent is free since this is all kept in my moms basement.  We breed the hamsters, since running them close to 24x7 causes them to wear out and the hamsterco RMA process is a pain.  Every third Wednesday, we sell any extra baby hamsters to the local pet store, which is how we can pay out 150% PPS.

[xkrikl]

Here is the picture of my mining rig:

[xkrikl]

Ok, let's get some answers to Sukrim's great questions:

All that numbers bigger than 100% PPS seem to imply to me is that you intend to oversell your actual mining capacity (= you have 0.33 MH/s but you intend to pay more than 100% PPS from these) which would make me more sceptic than you offering 100% PPS.

In fact it is exactly the opposite way. My profit is more than 110% PPS and my mining capacity is more than what I'm selling. I have approx. 2.65 GH/s of mining capacity and selling only 1.65 GH/s because I want to be on the safe side so I can pay 110% PPS, cover downtime and so on and still be profitable.

• Will you verify fully with GLBSE?

Yes, I will fully verify.
I've sent questions about GLBSE verification to GLBSE support on Thursday but no answer yet.
I also sent all the information according to my best understanding on Friday but probably missed the deadline.

• Please post pictures asap of your mining hardware including some handwritten note to be sure it's from you

Already did, see previous post.

• Do you have measures in place how you can guarantee that you actually do own the hash rate claimed (pool payout monitors, a verified payout address from a pool that you mine in, pictures, ) and not just go Ponzi, pay the ~1% per week from deposits and after half a year take a run?

Well, I lease the work to GPUMAX and if GPUMAX is not accepting leased work I mine at BitMinter pool.
For GPUMAX I have fixed payout address 1Heoc3UoayqmSrWMBM5FShA6zmKJT4A2S3.
For BitMinter I don't but when GPUMAX is not accepting leased work you can see me (xkrikl) in the Top 50 list on BitMinter.

• How much hash rate do you actually own right now and what would the money you raise be used for?

Right now I have 10 ztex singles producing on average 2070 MH/s and one  HD7970@1GHz slightly undervolted producing on average 680 MH/s.
As all the others I plan to use the money I raise for expansion. I have to decide yet if it will be BFL singles or ZTEX quads.

Please post the exact formula you wil use to determine "100% PPS" (if you don't have one yourself, the one used by MOORE seems to me the most comprehensively written + correct one)[/li][/list]

The formula will represent sum of daily payouts:
weekly dividend = sum of daily dividends
daily dividend = 1.10*330000*86400*B/(D*2^32)

in which:
  B is the block reward, which is 50BTC now,
  D is the difficulty of that day (if the difficulty changes that day then it's simple average of the new one and the old one).

• When and for how much per share and how many shares will the IPO be?

Well, I've already created the asset on Friday and was charged the 8BTC fee but it didn't appear on the IPO list so I've emailed the GLBSE support to find out what went wrong.
The IPO was planned for Monday June 11th but this might get delayed until I get the answer from GLBSE support team.
The planned IPO price is 0.1 BTC per share.

[xkrikl]

Everything was resolved quickly with GLBSE support so I'm fully GLBSE verified and the IPO can go live as planned on Monday at 05:56:42 GLBSE time.
As a promotion I offer 120% PPS payouts during June and July.
I'll also do daily payout during fundraising.

[Sukrim]

Nice answers and good luck with that IPO!

• Do you have measures in place how you can guarantee that you actually do own the hash rate claimed (pool payout monitors, a verified payout address from a pool that you mine in, pictures, ) and not just go Ponzi, pay the ~1% per week from deposits and after half a year take a run?

Well, I lease the work to GPUMAX and if GPUMAX is not accepting leased work I mine at BitMinter pool.
For GPUMAX I have fixed payout address 1Heoc3UoayqmSrWMBM5FShA6zmKJT4A2S3.
For BitMinter I don't but when GPUMAX is not accepting leased work you can see me (xkrikl) in the Top 50 list on BitMinter.

Just quoting this part, to make sure it stays the same.

[xkrikl]

First coupon payment has been sent out totaling 0.03069369 BTC for 122 shares representing ROI 0.25158% in less than a day.

[xkrikl]

Second coupon payment has been sent out totaling 0.07069613 BTC for 281 shares representing daily ROI 0.25158%.

[xkrikl]

Third coupon payment has been sent out totaling 0.07950169 BTC for 316 shares representing daily ROI 0.25158%.

[xkrikl]

Fourth coupon payment has been sent out totaling 0.07975328 BTC for 317 shares representing daily ROI 0.25158%.

[xkrikl]

Fifth coupon payment has been sent out totaling 0.08830726 BTC for 351 shares representing daily ROI 0.25158%.

[xkrikl]

Sixth coupon payment has been sent out totaling 0.08830726 BTC for 351 shares representing daily ROI 0.25158%.
Sorry for the delay ... I didn't get to the internet yesterday.

[xkrikl]

Seventh coupon payment has been sent out totaling 0.08830726 BTC for 351 shares representing daily ROI 0.25158%.

This took us to full week of dividends representing weekly ROI 1.76106%.

[xkrikl]

Week 2 Day 1 - Coupon payment has been sent out totaling 0.08855885 BTC for 352 shares representing daily ROI 0.25158%.

[xkrikl]

Week 2 Day 2 - Coupon payment has been sent out totaling 0.08855885 BTC for 352 shares representing daily ROI 0.25158%.

[xkrikl]

Week 4 Day 7 - Coupon payment has been sent out totaling 0.08005026 BTC for 352 shares representing daily ROI 0.22741%.

I've just returned from a long vacation when I had very limited access to the Internet so the dividends were sent a little higher after the difficulty changes.
We've just closed week 4 of PAJKA.BOND operation which yielded to the investors total of 0.00668567 BTC over 4 weeks which represents average weelky ROI 1.671418%

[xkrikl]

Week 5 Day 1 - Coupon payment has been sent out totaling 0.08073255 BTC for 355 shares representing daily ROI 0.22741%.

[xkrikl]

Week 5 Day 2 - Coupon payment has been sent out totaling 0.08073255 BTC for 355 shares representing daily ROI 0.22741%.

[Sukrim]

C-C-C-COMBOBREAKER!

Seriously, it is anyways public on the asset page when dividends are being paid and how high they were... Maybe keep these updates to a table in a single post or so?

[xkrikl]

Good idea ... I'll make a nice table in the second post over weekend. Thanks

[xkrikl]

Promised overview table added to the second post.

Decided to prolong the 120% PPS daily payout promotion for entire month of August.

[MoPac]

Any idea why the big drop in price today?

No real bids, last trade at 0.05, asks at 0.045...

Did somebody just need to cash out really quickly or is there something everybody should know?

[xkrikl]

Any idea why the big drop in price today?

No real bids, last trade at 0.05, asks at 0.045...

Did somebody just need to cash out really quickly or is there something everybody should know?

Nothing that I would be aware of except for high BTC price.
I feel it unfair to other who bought at 0.1 to lower the IPO price ... so I do keep it as it is ...
on the other hand I understand that with the actual BTC to USD price it is a bit off ...
We need the BTC prices to stabilize again ... meanwhile (if you believe that the actual BTC price is unsustainable in the long term) the decision is ... or to buy cheap (in BTC) mining bonds/shares or to sell BTC to USD.
Pajka

[xkrikl]

Together with Havelock Investments, Gigamining, Cognitive Mining and Synergy we have been chosen by the new Blue Chip BTC 10 Mutual Fund.
For more more details see
https://glbse.com/ipo/192
https://glbse.com/asset/view/BLUECHIP
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnpbJ9eMVdSodHYyVVNHUVh2OEtVYWd6NDFoY0pCalE#gid=0

[xkrikl]

120% PPS promotion extended till the end of September

[xkrikl]

For some reason the dividend payment on Sep 4th didn't go through the GLBSE interface ...
So today there is the double dividend to compensate it.

[MoPac]

I haven't heard anything from you since the GLBSE shutdown -- have you received your shareholder information?

[xkrikl]

I haven't heard anything from you since the GLBSE shutdown -- have you received your shareholder information?

No, unfortunatelly not yet.
We are waiting as most of others on any news from Nefario.

[xkrikl]

Today I've received bond holders data from GLBSE.
I'll give moreinformation during the weekend and also I'll be sending e-mails for confirmation.

[xkrikl]

I have sent emails to the addresses received from GLBSE to confirm the data provided.

The data covers 261 out of 460 sold bonds.
Based on the answers received I will follow the data received from GLBSE.

I let the bond holders decide wheather they prefer:
1) I pay you the last price on GLBSE before closure
2) I pay you the dividends since GLBSE closure plus lifetime expected return ... we would need some guestimate
3) We relist on another exchange - probably BTCT.CO or Cryptostocks

Tha vast majority of bond holders expressed their wish to have the PAJKA.BOND relisted on BTCT.CO or Cryptostocks.

[xkrikl]

PAJKA.BOND was approved on BTCT.CO

User accounts will be created soon and you'll be emailed with more information.

[xkrikl]

User accounts with PAJKA.BOND shares were created on BTCT.CO based on the data from GLBSE.
All users should have received emails from BTCT.CO with information how to access them.
Let me know if you have any troubles.
I've sent an email as well and as soon as I'll get feedback from most of the bond holders I'll move forward and pay the outstanding dividend directly on BTCT.CO

[xkrikl]

I've received the complete list from Nefario.
I've emailed the new share owners.

Still waiting for more replies to confirm that most were able to access their accounts on BTCT.CO.

[xkrikl]

Check your spam folders, please.
I'm still missing quite a few confirmations.

[xkrikl]

I'm still missing quite a few answers.
Please re-check your mailbox and spam folders.
Anyway I will start with dividend payments on BTCT.CO on Feb 1st.

[xkrikl]

I'm still missing an answer from 3 people but anyway I'll pay out the accumulated dividend since the GLBSE closure tomorrow which amouts to 0.009984962 BTC per bond.

[xkrikl]

The dividend of 0.00998496 BTC/share accumulated since GLBSE closure was sent out today.
I'll continue with daily payments.

[xkrikl]

I'll be travelling this weekend.
As the dividend paid on Saturday will probably depend on new difficulty I don't want to schedule it.
So it might be paid a bit later than usual.

[xkrikl]

Dividend paid 5 minutes late.
Future dividends should be on time again.

[xkrikl]

You all know that I didn't want lower the IPO price to match market price to get the IPO done.
The reason was that it would be unfair and it would damage early adopters.

Now when the ASICs are becoming available it's time to finish the IPO and reward early investors!
To get that accpomplished I decided to dedicated 500 shares of ASICMINER of my own to it.
Right now one ASICMINER share represents approx. 15Mhash/s so for 5000 bonds it means 1.5Mhash/s per bond.
Thus I'm offering free upgrade to 1.5Mhash/s and I've posted a motion on BTCT.CO so that the contract can be updated.
As soon as the motion is closed I'll ask Burside to update the contract based on it.
As soon as the contract on BTCT.CO is updated I'll start paying the higher dividends.
I'll consider further upgrade when ASICMINER will have the full 12TH/s online.

[xkrikl]

I got a PM with a question: What is the expected rate after the ASICs are delivered?

15Mhash/s per share if they run up to spec. Anyway I can promise that it will be in 10-15Mhash/s range per share.
And it will be free upgrade.
You can compare for example with JAH where you pay 0.3BTC now and 0.12BTC for upgrade later to get 25Mhash/s ... so approx. 0.4BTC/25mhash/s
With PAJKA.BOND you can have the same approx. 25mhash/s just for 2*0.1=0.2BTC ... so twice cheaper!

[xkrikl]

I see less interest than expected ... but finally we made it over 50% of votes on the motion.
After this one finishes I'll put up another to put the future "upgrades" into contract to make them binding as well.

[btcash]

Will you add this weeks ASICMiner dividends to the PAJKA.BOND dividends or starting from next week?

[xkrikl]

The motion will pass so I'll ask burnside to update the contract and the dividend for Friday (00:00 to 23:59 UTC) which is paid on Saturday 21:00 UTC will be already for 1.5mhash/s.

[burnside]

Contract updated.

Cheers.

[xkrikl]

Thanks, Burnside, that was fast!

[xkrikl]

The first 1.5Mhash/s dividend was paid. Enjoy!

[xkrikl]

The promised motion for the addition of the future free upgrades up to 15Mhash/s per bond to the contract was prepared.
You can vote 2013-03-19 00:00:00 (GMT) till 2013-03-25 00:00:00 (GMT).

[strello]

In the new proposed contract it still says 1.5 MH/s 

[strello]

What ASICs do you have on order, and do you have any idea when you might receive them?

[xkrikl]

In the new proposed contract it still says 1.5 MH/s 

Yes, it does.
The new proposed change only makes the future upgrades part of the contract so that I cannot change my mind about them in the future.

What ASICs do you have on order, and do you have any idea when you might receive them?

BFL. I don't know. I hope this summer. ;-)

[creativex]

Good luck with BFL.

Great job with the bond otherwise though!

[xkrikl]

The promised motion for the addition of the future free upgrades up to 15Mhash/s per bond to the contract was prepared.
You can vote 2013-03-19 00:00:00 (GMT) till 2013-03-25 00:00:00 (GMT).

Motion passed and PAJKA.BOND contract on BTCT.CO was updated.

[gog1]

When was the order with BFL placed?  This is important as BFL will shipped in first-in-first-out fashion rather than Avalon's seemingly random shipping order.

[xkrikl]

I ordered when BFL announced that they have tested that the chips they received from foundry are ok.
I don't remember exactly ... but I think it was end of February / beginning of March.

[btcash]

I ordered when BFL announced that they have tested that the chips they received from foundry are ok.
I don't remember exactly ... but I think it was end of February / beginning of March.

What is your order number?

[xkrikl]

What is your order number?

I did look up the order number and it is: #100021710

[TheSwede75]

Completely out of the blue question here but I have 3 x BFL jalapeno on order (order nr ranging from low 10k to 35k) since Feb/March and was wondering if you would have any interest in purchasing the miners from me with Pajka.Bonds as payment? (if this is even possible with the bond structure).

I am not as much interested in $$ as I am in continuous mining income and this could be an interesting proposition. Especially since it seems Jalapeno will be delivered as first devices (I am expecting my 1st jalapeno to be delivered within 3 weeks).

If it would be possible trading the hardware for Bonds would allow me to recoup the purchase price+ and earn mining income without hosting them myself on my semi reliable DSL. I am in the US mMdwest if that matters.

[xkrikl]

Completely out of the blue question here but I have 3 x BFL jalapeno on order (order nr ranging from low 10k to 35k) since Feb/March and was wondering if you would have any interest in purchasing the miners from me with Pajka.Bonds as payment? (if this is even possible with the bond structure).

I am not as much interested in $$ as I am in continuous mining income and this could be an interesting proposition. Especially since it seems Jalapeno will be delivered as first devices (I am expecting my 1st jalapeno to be delivered within 3 weeks).

If it would be possible trading the hardware for Bonds would allow me to recoup the purchase price+ and earn mining income without hosting them myself on my semi reliable DSL. I am in the US mMdwest if that matters.

Thanks for the offer.
We can discuss it via PM and maybe we can agree on some trade.

[xkrikl]

ASICMINER hashrate is increasing ... it is almost 9TH/s ... so we are getting close to 12TH/s ... the moment when the PAJKA.BOND payouts will double!
You can watch it as ID 67117 on BTCGuild: https://www.btcguild.com/index.php?page=rankings

[frejo]

I don't understand this part of the contract:
"The issuer can buy back the bond at any time at a price equal to 110% of the average price the asset was traded on BTC.CO over the prior 15 days."

Does that mean you can buy back the bond at any time is pleases you? No vote? I mean, I can't really count on 15Mhash/s per share since it might be bought back before that? Or am I missing something here?

[burnside]

I don't understand this part of the contract:
"The issuer can buy back the bond at any time at a price equal to 110% of the average price the asset was traded on BTC.CO over the prior 15 days."

Does that mean you can buy back the bond at any time is pleases you? No vote? I mean, I can't really count on 15Mhash/s per share since it might be bought back before that? Or am I missing something here?

That's been fairly standard in most of the mining bond contracts because you never know when the issuer might need to close up shop and shut things down.  This could happen for personal reasons, legal reasons, etc.  No one can guarantee to run something forever.  There has to be a clean way to shut down.

Cheers.

[xkrikl]

I don't understand this part of the contract:
"The issuer can buy back the bond at any time at a price equal to 110% of the average price the asset was traded on BTC.CO over the prior 15 days."

Does that mean you can buy back the bond at any time is pleases you? No vote? I mean, I can't really count on 15Mhash/s per share since it might be bought back before that? Or am I missing something here?

That's been fairly standard in most of the mining bond contracts because you never know when the issuer might need to close up shop and shut things down.  This could happen for personal reasons, legal reasons, etc.  No one can guarantee to run something forever.  There has to be a clean way to shut down.

Cheers.

Burnside is right,
it is a bond and I can buy it back whenever I want ... but I don't plan on doing so any time soon
and even when I would do so ... you would get those 10% more than the market price
and as long as we believe that BFL will deliver ... the market price should reflect the future 15Mhash/s

The only problem could be that I would decide not to do the upgrade to bring the price down and buy back cheap.
But I made this future upgrades part of the contract to protect you against this "I've changed my mind" that happend with some other mining bond offerings.

[frejo]

Fair enough. I think I'll invest.

[xkrikl]

ASICMINER hashrate is increasing ... it is almost 9TH/s ... so we are getting close to 12TH/s ... the moment when the PAJKA.BOND payouts will double!
You can watch it as ID 67117 on BTCGuild: https://www.btcguild.com/index.php?page=rankings

12 THash/s was reached today.

The dividend for May 2nd will be already for 3Mhash per bond.
The dividend is always sent out the following day at 21:00 ... so the first doubled payout will go out May 3rd at 21:00.

[SOSLOVE868]

ASICMINER hashrate is increasing ... it is almost 9TH/s ... so we are getting close to 12TH/s ... the moment when the PAJKA.BOND payouts will double!
You can watch it as ID 67117 on BTCGuild: https://www.btcguild.com/index.php?page=rankings

12 THash/s was reached today.

The dividend for May 2nd will be already for 3Mhash per bond.
The dividend is always sent out the following day at 21:00 ... so the first doubled payout will go out May 3rd at 21:00.

I want to know why our bond's dividend is regard to hash rate by ASICMINER.. Is this mean our bond is holding shares of ASICMINER? If it is ,can you tell me how many shares of ASICMINER are currently hold by PAJAKA bond ? apart from ASICMINER ,what other assets are working to generate dividend for PAJAKA BOND?

[SOSLOVE868]

ASICMINER hashrate is increasing ... it is almost 9TH/s ... so we are getting close to 12TH/s ... the moment when the PAJKA.BOND payouts will double!
You can watch it as ID 67117 on BTCGuild: https://www.btcguild.com/index.php?page=rankings

12 THash/s was reached today.

The dividend for May 2nd will be already for 3Mhash per bond.
The dividend is always sent out the following day at 21:00 ... so the first doubled payout will go out May 3rd at 21:00.

Dear Xkrikl:
    Can you tell me how many ASICMINER's shares is currently working to generating dividend and as a asset under PAJKA bond?I am deciding to invest more into PAJKA bond. Currently, I am holding 440 shares of PAJKA BOND.. before I made my decision, I have some questions want to ask you. I am glad you can help me out!!!thanks for your time....
1: How many shares of PAJKA bond will be issued in BTCT, and what is the total amount will be issue? and do you have the right to increase shares?
2: I found strange situation in PAJAKA bond, first I see a total of 5288 shares of PAJKA BOND is currently put on trading. but in detail section that shows Outstanding 4413 / 10000 .  this a bit strange..is this mean we have totally 4413 shares had been subscribed by investors?   or this mean we still have 4413 shares isn't been subscribe?  
3: Do you finished the IPO process? if not, why I can not see a constant price of sell in BTCT?  If you still hold a large amount of shares ?you should on less put a consistent IPO price for investor to subscribe....
4: I want to know how many shares of this bond you will hold under yourself?  if not ,can you explain to me about 4413/10000?

I am waiting for you reply....

Thank you

[xkrikl]

ASICMINER hashrate is increasing ... it is almost 9TH/s ... so we are getting close to 12TH/s ... the moment when the PAJKA.BOND payouts will double!
You can watch it as ID 67117 on BTCGuild: https://www.btcguild.com/index.php?page=rankings

12 THash/s was reached today.

The dividend for May 2nd will be already for 3Mhash per bond.
The dividend is always sent out the following day at 21:00 ... so the first doubled payout will go out May 3rd at 21:00.

Dear Xkrikl:
    Can you tell me how many ASICMINER's shares is currently working to generating dividend and as a asset under PAJKA bond?I am deciding to invest more into PAJKA bond. Currently, I am holding 440 shares of PAJKA BOND.. before I made my decision, I have some questions want to ask you. I am glad you can help me out!!!thanks for your time....
1: How many shares of PAJKA bond will be issued in BTCT, and what is the total amount will be issue? and do you have the right to increase shares?
2: I found strange situation in PAJAKA bond, first I see a total of 5288 shares of PAJKA BOND is currently put on trading. but in detail section that shows Outstanding 4413 / 10000 .  this a bit strange..is this mean we have totally 4413 shares had been subscribed by investors?   or this mean we still have 4413 shares isn't been subscribe?  
3: Do you finished the IPO process? if not, why I can not see a constant price of sell in BTCT?  If you still hold a large amount of shares ?you should on less put a consistent IPO price for investor to subscribe....
4: I want to know how many shares of this bond you will hold under yourself?  if not ,can you explain to me about 4413/10000?

I am waiting for you reply....

Thank you

Well, this is mining bond. Each bond provides dividends equal to the PPS of given hash rate ... actual hash rate is 3mhash/s.
You don't run the risk of HW failure neither the operating costs (electricity etc).
Currently I have 2.6ghash/s of HW and ASICMINER shares (I originally dedicated 500 out of which I sold 300 at 2 years worth of dividends).
So now I have 200 ASICMINER shares which equals 10ghash/s plus HW which is 12.6ghash/s plus BTC cash for 2 years for another 15ghash/s equivalent.
That is 27.6ghash/s covered for 2 years or 42.6ghash/s covered for 1 year and I believe that BFL will deliver by then.
When BFL delivers to me the bonds will upgrade to 15mhash/s. I have ordered 300ghash/s ... so that's enough for 20000 PAJKA.BOND shares but I won't issue all of this amount as I want to keep reasonable safety margin thus expect to stick with 10000 bond shares.

Now to your points:
1) The total number is unlimited - it is a bond. I can issue as many as I want. Right now I am targetting 10000 bond shares and don't plan on more. This might change if there is large demand when I upgrade to 15mhash/s per bond.
2) You are right - it is 4413/10000 are out in investors' hands. I believe that the other number you are talking about is just the total number of bonds offered for sale by all parties.
3) The IPO price is 0.1 BTC per bond and I promised I won't be selling any lower than that not to damage IPO investors. Right now I have put most of the bonds on sale at multiple price points a little above the original IPO price and some more are sometimes offered as options.
4) As you can see by the 4413/10000 I currently hold 5587 bonds but I plan to sell them all for 0.1 BTC or more and right now I am asking a little premium over the IPO price.

[SOSLOVE868]

ASICMINER hashrate is increasing ... it is almost 9TH/s ... so we are getting close to 12TH/s ... the moment when the PAJKA.BOND payouts will double!
You can watch it as ID 67117 on BTCGuild: https://www.btcguild.com/index.php?page=rankings

12 THash/s was reached today.

The dividend for May 2nd will be already for 3Mhash per bond.
The dividend is always sent out the following day at 21:00 ... so the first doubled payout will go out May 3rd at 21:00.

Dear Xkrikl:
    Can you tell me how many ASICMINER's shares is currently working to generating dividend and as a asset under PAJKA bond?I am deciding to invest more into PAJKA bond. Currently, I am holding 440 shares of PAJKA BOND.. before I made my decision, I have some questions want to ask you. I am glad you can help me out!!!thanks for your time....
1: How many shares of PAJKA bond will be issued in BTCT, and what is the total amount will be issue? and do you have the right to increase shares?
2: I found strange situation in PAJAKA bond, first I see a total of 5288 shares of PAJKA BOND is currently put on trading. but in detail section that shows Outstanding 4413 / 10000 .  this a bit strange..is this mean we have totally 4413 shares had been subscribed by investors?   or this mean we still have 4413 shares isn't been subscribe?  
3: Do you finished the IPO process? if not, why I can not see a constant price of sell in BTCT?  If you still hold a large amount of shares ?you should on less put a consistent IPO price for investor to subscribe....
4: I want to know how many shares of this bond you will hold under yourself?  if not ,can you explain to me about 4413/10000?

I am waiting for you reply....

Thank you

Well, this is mining bond. Each bond provides dividends equal to the PPS of given hash rate ... actual hash rate is 3mhash/s.
You don't run the risk of HW failure neither the operating costs (electricity etc).
Currently I have 2.6ghash/s of HW and ASICMINER shares (I originally dedicated 500 out of which I sold 300 at 2 years worth of dividends).
So now I have 200 ASICMINER shares which equals 10ghash/s plus HW which is 12.6ghash/s plus BTC cash for 2 years for another 15ghash/s equivalent.
That is 27.6ghash/s covered for 2 years or 42.6ghash/s covered for 1 year and I believe that BFL will deliver by then.
When BFL delivers to me the bonds will upgrade to 15mhash/s. I have ordered 300ghash/s ... so that's enough for 20000 PAJKA.BOND shares but I won't issue all of this amount as I want to keep reasonable safety margin thus expect to stick with 10000 bond shares.

Now to your points:
1) The total number is unlimited - it is a bond. I can issue as many as I want. Right now I am targetting 10000 bond shares and don't plan on more. This might change if there is large demand when I upgrade to 15mhash/s per bond.
2) You are right - it is 4413/10000 are out in investors' hands. I believe that the other number you are talking about is just the total number of bonds offered for sale by all parties.
3) The IPO price is 0.1 BTC per bond and I promised I won't be selling any lower than that not to damage IPO investors. Right now I have put most of the bonds on sale at multiple price points a little above the original IPO price and some more are sometimes offered as options.
4) As you can see by the 4413/10000 I currently hold 5587 bonds but I plan to sell them all for 0.1 BTC or more and right now I am asking a little premium over the IPO price.

I still doubt in some areas, because this is my first time invest in bond..therefore I want to know more information about where the dividend come from?

Is this dividend come from the amount you received from sold of ASICMINER's shares?

Is this dividend regard with mining difficulties?? Is this mean if the entire mining difficulties of BTC have increase then our dividend will be decrease?
Since we have fixed hash rate per bond? is this correct?  

As a bond , it usually have maturity period..I like to know what time you plan to buy back those bond?  
Will you use the dividend received from that remaining 200 shares of ASICMINER to pay dividend to those investor? or you just use those shares as a PPS rate?

from all the information you provide that currently you want to get back the money you have invested in BFL, If BFL is not delivered and you are a honesty person ,will you use the BTC received from sold of 300 ASICMINER to buy back bond???

last question, apart from the BTC your received from sold of the 300 ASICMINER.  Is that the 200 ASICEMINER and the Hardware you use can generate sufficient amount of  BTC to pay out dividend under the current dividend level? ( I like to see a calculation here, I think for most investors this question would be important, because this shows your ability of generating profit or BTC.)

I think the last question is most important.

Thanks again for your time!

Regard

[xkrikl]

I still doubt in some areas, because this is my first time invest in bond..therefore I want to know more information about where the dividend come from?

Is this dividend come from the amount you received from sold of ASICMINER's shares?

Yes - partialy. Partialy from dividends on ASICMINER shares I still own and partialy from the mined BTC using my HW.

Is this dividend regard with mining difficulties?? Is this mean if the entire mining difficulties of BTC have increase then our dividend will be decrease?
Since we have fixed hash rate per bond? is this correct?  

Yes, it is fixed hash rate of 3mhash/s and it will upgrade to fixed rate of 15mhash/s when BFL delivers to me.
If the difficulty goes down you earn more, if it goes up (much more probable) you earn less. But keep in mind that if you buy mining HW it is the same or even worse because you have still to operate it and pay for electricity and so on.

As a bond , it usually have maturity period..I like to know what time you plan to buy back those bond?  
Will you use the dividend received from that remaining 200 shares of ASICMINER to pay dividend to those investor? or you just use those shares as a PPS rate?

When I would buy back? Well I would be probably buying the bond back in the case that the BTC price is going down which would mean that the operationg prices would be high in BTC. There is no reason to do that earlier unless the bonds is trading heavilly undervalued - then I could buy it partially back on the market.

from all the information you provide that currently you want to get back the money you have invested in BFL, If BFL is not delivered and you are a honesty person ,will you use the BTC received from sold of 300 ASICMINER to buy back bond???

Well, if you buy into PAJKA.BOND you are in for both - the profit and the risk.
I believe that BFL will deliver - the question is when.
I am honest person and so if they would refund orders instead of delivering I would buy some other BTC ASIC HW and match the offer I did with BFL HW.

last question, apart from the BTC your received from sold of the 300 ASICMINER.  Is that the 200 ASICEMINER and the Hardware you use can generate sufficient amount of  BTC to pay out dividend under the current dividend level? ( I like to see a calculation here, I think for most investors this question would be important, because this shows your ability of generating profit or BTC.)

200 ASICMINER shares are 10ghash/s (plus extras from sold HW) and my HW does 2.6ghash/s. That is 12.6ghash/s.
There are 4563 PAJKA.BONDs out @3mhash/s. That is 13.6ghash/s.
The difference is only 1ghash/s and it can be very easily covered with the cash from sold ASICMINER shares for many years.
I am now offering the bonds at a premium - so if they are selling even at a premium I can use the money from the sale to cover them with more ASICMINER shares for example.
But honestly I expect that more will be selling after BFL delivers to me and bonds upgrade to 15mhash/s. We will see where the PAJKA.BOND price goes then.

I think the last question is most important.

Thanks again for your time!

Regard

You are welcome.

[SOSLOVE868]

I still doubt in some areas, because this is my first time invest in bond..therefore I want to know more information about where the dividend come from?

Is this dividend come from the amount you received from sold of ASICMINER's shares?

Yes - partialy. Partialy from dividends on ASICMINER shares I still own and partialy from the mined BTC using my HW.

Is this dividend regard with mining difficulties?? Is this mean if the entire mining difficulties of BTC have increase then our dividend will be decrease?
Since we have fixed hash rate per bond? is this correct?  

Yes, it is fixed hash rate of 3mhash/s and it will upgrade to fixed rate of 15mhash/s when BFL delivers to me.
If the difficulty goes down you earn more, if it goes up (much more probable) you earn less. But keep in mind that if you buy mining HW it is the same or even worse because you have still to operate it and pay for electricity and so on.

As a bond , it usually have maturity period..I like to know what time you plan to buy back those bond?  
Will you use the dividend received from that remaining 200 shares of ASICMINER to pay dividend to those investor? or you just use those shares as a PPS rate?

When I would buy back? Well I would be probably buying the bond back in the case that the BTC price is going down which would mean that the operationg prices would be high in BTC. There is no reason to do that earlier unless the bonds is trading heavilly undervalued - then I could buy it partially back on the market.

from all the information you provide that currently you want to get back the money you have invested in BFL, If BFL is not delivered and you are a honesty person ,will you use the BTC received from sold of 300 ASICMINER to buy back bond???

Well, if you buy into PAJKA.BOND you are in for both - the profit and the risk.
I believe that BFL will deliver - the question is when.
I am honest person and so if they would refund orders instead of delivering I would buy some other BTC ASIC HW and match the offer I did with BFL HW.

last question, apart from the BTC your received from sold of the 300 ASICMINER.  Is that the 200 ASICEMINER and the Hardware you use can generate sufficient amount of  BTC to pay out dividend under the current dividend level? ( I like to see a calculation here, I think for most investors this question would be important, because this shows your ability of generating profit or BTC.)

200 ASICMINER shares are 10ghash/s (plus extras from sold HW) and my HW does 2.6ghash/s. That is 12.6ghash/s.
There are 4563 PAJKA.BONDs out @3mhash/s. That is 13.6ghash/s.
The difference is only 1ghash/s and it can be very easily covered with the cash from sold ASICMINER shares for many years.
I am now offering the bonds at a premium - so if they are selling even at a premium I can use the money from the sale to cover them with more ASICMINER shares for example.
But honestly I expect that more will be selling after BFL delivers to me and bonds upgrade to 15mhash/s. We will see where the PAJKA.BOND price goes then.

I think the last question is most important.

Thanks again for your time!

Regard

You are welcome.

How about if bfl is not deliver nor refund the BTC back to you ? what will you do then?

[operador]

How about if bfl is not deliver nor refund the BTC back to you ? what will you do then?

Great question, it doesn't look like BFL will deliver so I guess you would buy out the fund.

[SOSLOVE868]

I still doubt in some areas, because this is my first time invest in bond..therefore I want to know more information about where the dividend come from?

Is this dividend come from the amount you received from sold of ASICMINER's shares?

Yes - partialy. Partialy from dividends on ASICMINER shares I still own and partialy from the mined BTC using my HW.

Is this dividend regard with mining difficulties?? Is this mean if the entire mining difficulties of BTC have increase then our dividend will be decrease?
Since we have fixed hash rate per bond? is this correct?  

Yes, it is fixed hash rate of 3mhash/s and it will upgrade to fixed rate of 15mhash/s when BFL delivers to me.
If the difficulty goes down you earn more, if it goes up (much more probable) you earn less. But keep in mind that if you buy mining HW it is the same or even worse because you have still to operate it and pay for electricity and so on.

As a bond , it usually have maturity period..I like to know what time you plan to buy back those bond?  
Will you use the dividend received from that remaining 200 shares of ASICMINER to pay dividend to those investor? or you just use those shares as a PPS rate?

When I would buy back? Well I would be probably buying the bond back in the case that the BTC price is going down which would mean that the operationg prices would be high in BTC. There is no reason to do that earlier unless the bonds is trading heavilly undervalued - then I could buy it partially back on the market.

from all the information you provide that currently you want to get back the money you have invested in BFL, If BFL is not delivered and you are a honesty person ,will you use the BTC received from sold of 300 ASICMINER to buy back bond???

Well, if you buy into PAJKA.BOND you are in for both - the profit and the risk.
I believe that BFL will deliver - the question is when.
I am honest person and so if they would refund orders instead of delivering I would buy some other BTC ASIC HW and match the offer I did with BFL HW.

last question, apart from the BTC your received from sold of the 300 ASICMINER.  Is that the 200 ASICEMINER and the Hardware you use can generate sufficient amount of  BTC to pay out dividend under the current dividend level? ( I like to see a calculation here, I think for most investors this question would be important, because this shows your ability of generating profit or BTC.)

200 ASICMINER shares are 10ghash/s (plus extras from sold HW) and my HW does 2.6ghash/s. That is 12.6ghash/s.
There are 4563 PAJKA.BONDs out @3mhash/s. That is 13.6ghash/s.
The difference is only 1ghash/s and it can be very easily covered with the cash from sold ASICMINER shares for many years.
I am now offering the bonds at a premium - so if they are selling even at a premium I can use the money from the sale to cover them with more ASICMINER shares for example.
But honestly I expect that more will be selling after BFL delivers to me and bonds upgrade to 15mhash/s. We will see where the PAJKA.BOND price goes then.

I think the last question is most important.

Thanks again for your time!

Regard

You are welcome.

Dear xkrikl :
I have a suggestion here,ASICMINER currently mining at 24.4 TH, Have you consider that  Pajka bond should increase its hashrate per shares again? Since PAJKA bond's dividend is some part backing by ASICMINER's shares.. and if Pajka bond does follow up its dividend up to ASICMINER's hashrate I think this will greatly attracted new bondholders.  Currently 3M hash per share at a price of 0.11 is not so attractive for new bondholders...As TAT.Vituralmine provide 1Mhash at 0.007, RPM provide 25.2Mhash at 0.4 and PAMB 100M hash at 1.3.....
I suggest that before BFL equipment become shipped, that double or tripe its hashrate per share is really necessary...the math is if double its hashrate , it will take 1048 days to recover its cost. if the hashrate per bond been tripled, then it will take 550 days...It still more expensive than TAT.Vitruemine, but will become more reasonable for new investors.....

The choice is yours...This is only suggestion....and I am currently holding PAJKA BOND.



Regards

[furuknap]

I have a suggestion here,since ASICMINER is close to 24 TH, if Pajka bond increase its hashrate per shares again.this will greatly attracted new shareholders?  Currently 3M hash per share at a price of 0.11 is not so attractive for new shareholders...TAT.Vituralmine provide 1Mhash at 0.007, RPM provide 25.2Mhash at 0.4 and PAMB 100M hash at 1.3.....

PAJKA is a bond, not a share in a company. There is absolutely no reason why the issuer would want to give you more money. Think of it like this; a bond is like a loan where you know in advance exactly what you will be getting in return (in this case a certain hash rate). What you are asking is that the borrower (or issuer in this case) should just start giving you more than you're entitled to so that you can get more when you resell your debt.

What is the benefit to the issuer here?

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

I have a suggestion here,since ASICMINER is close to 24 TH, if Pajka bond increase its hashrate per shares again.this will greatly attracted new shareholders?  Currently 3M hash per share at a price of 0.11 is not so attractive for new shareholders...TAT.Vituralmine provide 1Mhash at 0.007, RPM provide 25.2Mhash at 0.4 and PAMB 100M hash at 1.3.....

PAJKA is a bond, not a share in a company. There is absolutely no reason why the issuer would want to give you more money. Think of it like this; a bond is like a loan where you know in advance exactly what you will be getting in return (in this case a certain hash rate). What you are asking is that the borrower (or issuer in this case) should just start giving you more than you're entitled to so that you can get more when you resell your debt.

What is the benefit to the issuer here?

.b

I understand that PAJKA is bond not a shares....Since PAJKA bond does double its dividend as ASICMINER reached 12TH/S....and I remember that PAJKA BOND'S dividend is part backing by ASICMINER'S hashrate....therefore I wrote this suggestion to the issuer...this may be the time to double its hashrate per bond...

[furuknap]

I understand that PAJKA is bond not a shares....Since PAJKA bond does double its dividend as ASICMINER reached 12TH/S....and I remember that PAJKA BOND'S dividend is part backing by ASICMINER'S hashrate....therefore I wrote this suggestion to the issuer...this may be the time to double its hashrate per bond...

The doubling was part of the contract you purchased. You didn't answer my question; what does the issuer get in return for giving you more money? At this point, you're only begging for money but not offering anything in return.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

I understand that PAJKA is bond not a shares....Since PAJKA bond does double its dividend as ASICMINER reached 12TH/S....and I remember that PAJKA BOND'S dividend is part backing by ASICMINER'S hashrate....therefore I wrote this suggestion to the issuer...this may be the time to double its hashrate per bond...

The doubling was part of the contract you purchased. You didn't answer my question; what does the issuer get in return for giving you more money? At this point, you're only begging for money but not offering anything in return.

.b

The return here is simple, by assurance to investors confidence of this bond.will increase its rate of acceptance of this bond...and the shareholder could generate more BTC in short time...Currently market price for ASICMINER'S BLADE is cost 50 BTC..it will pay out itself in 145 days.....if PAJKA finished its IPO process as quick as possibly...the funds still can pay out far weighted its cost....

[furuknap]

I understand that PAJKA is bond not a shares....Since PAJKA bond does double its dividend as ASICMINER reached 12TH/S....and I remember that PAJKA BOND'S dividend is part backing by ASICMINER'S hashrate....therefore I wrote this suggestion to the issuer...this may be the time to double its hashrate per bond...

The doubling was part of the contract you purchased. You didn't answer my question; what does the issuer get in return for giving you more money? At this point, you're only begging for money but not offering anything in return.

.b

The return here is simple, by assurance to investors confidence of this bond.will increase its rate of acceptance of this bond...and the shareholder could generate more BTC in short time...Currently market price for ASICMINER'S BLADE is cost 50 BTC..it will pay out itself in 145 days.....if PAJKA finished its IPO process as quick as possibly...the funds still can pay out far weighted its cost....

I'm struggling to grasp the accurate meaning of what you're saying, but you're solely talking about benefits to you. Let's make it simple.

DO NOT mention share price, as this is solely a benefit to you (and is irrelevant to the issuer because the bonds on the market are already sold)
DO NOT mention hashrate, as this is solely a benefit to you (and is an added expense to the issuer which is a pretty clear disadvantage)

Now explain to me, what does the issuer get out of this, considering the bonds on the market are already sold at a well-known and clear-cut contract?

Remember, don't mention shareprice or dividends; those either do not benefit the issuer or benefits you only.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

I understand that PAJKA is bond not a shares....Since PAJKA bond does double its dividend as ASICMINER reached 12TH/S....and I remember that PAJKA BOND'S dividend is part backing by ASICMINER'S hashrate....therefore I wrote this suggestion to the issuer...this may be the time to double its hashrate per bond...

The doubling was part of the contract you purchased. You didn't answer my question; what does the issuer get in return for giving you more money? At this point, you're only begging for money but not offering anything in return.

.b

The return here is simple, by assurance to investors confidence of this bond.will increase its rate of acceptance of this bond...and the shareholder could generate more BTC in short time...Currently market price for ASICMINER'S BLADE is cost 50 BTC..it will pay out itself in 145 days.....if PAJKA finished its IPO process as quick as possibly...the funds still can pay out far weighted its cost....

I'm struggling to grasp the accurate meaning of what you're saying, but you're solely talking about benefits to you. Let's make it simple.

DO NOT mention share price, as this is solely a benefit to you (and is irrelevant to the issuer because the bonds on the market are already sold)
DO NOT mention hashrate, as this is solely a benefit to you (and is an added expense to the issuer which is a pretty clear disadvantage)

Now explain to me, what does the issuer get out of this, considering the bonds on the market are already sold at a well-known and clear-cut contract?

Remember, don't mention shareprice or dividends; those either do not benefit the issuer or benefits you only.

.b

OK...But the truth here is PAJKA BOND does not finish its IPO process....This only depend on whether the issuer try to quickly finished its IPO or not...if not...I think he will absolutely accepted the low trading volume in the market......if he urgently needs capital to fundraising its project..like I say that ordering Blade or other mining rigs..... I do not have the time to do the math for you ...but I can tell you if the IPO is finished in very short time, the issuer can get more funds to buy those rigs...and the funds he received can produce double value in a year......Remember since all fund is received in BTC and all rigs are pay in BTC...The issuer can double its capitals in a year time...without the risk of volatility of BTC...

[furuknap]

OK...But the truth here is PAJKA BOND does not finish its IPO process....This only depend on whether the issuer try to quickly finished its IPO or not...if not...I think he will absolutely accepted the low trading volume in the market......if he urgently needs capital to fundraising its project..like I say that ordering Blade or other mining rigs..... I do not have the time to do the math for you ...but I can tell you if the IPO is finished in very short time, the issuer can get more funds to buy those rigs...and the funds he received can produce double value in a year......Remember since all fund is received in BTC and all rigs are pay in BTC...The issuer can double its capitals in a year time...without the risk of volatility of BTC...

I've done the math, so don't worry about that. I just don't see why you think it makes sense for anyone to give money away. If the issuer does not have the funds to complete the contract, then that is a completely different issue, but as far as I've been able to understand, that is not the issue here as the current hashrate is backed well by AM shares and funds and the expected increase later is at an undefined point in time.

Consider this: If the issuer wants to get more funds using different terms, it makes no sense to give away free money to the people with whom the issuer already has a contract. The issuer can simply create a new bond with different terms and if the market wants that, the market will buy the bonds.

Again, your proposal is simply asking for more money with nothing in return. The issuer has no motivation what so ever to give you that, unless it is out of a charitable approach, in which case I would question the issuer's financial acumen and probably keep that in mind for any future assets from that issuer.

If you do not like the terms of your contract, you can sell. If you like the terms of the contract, you can buy. Trying to renegotiate with a single-sided benefit only will not work.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

OK...But the truth here is PAJKA BOND does not finish its IPO process....This only depend on whether the issuer try to quickly finished its IPO or not...if not...I think he will absolutely accepted the low trading volume in the market......if he urgently needs capital to fundraising its project..like I say that ordering Blade or other mining rigs..... I do not have the time to do the math for you ...but I can tell you if the IPO is finished in very short time, the issuer can get more funds to buy those rigs...and the funds he received can produce double value in a year......Remember since all fund is received in BTC and all rigs are pay in BTC...The issuer can double its capitals in a year time...without the risk of volatility of BTC...

I've done the math, so don't worry about that. I just don't see why you think it makes sense for anyone to give money away. If the issuer does not have the funds to complete the contract, then that is a completely different issue, but as far as I've been able to understand, that is not the issue here as the current hashrate is backed well by AM shares and funds and the expected increase later is at an undefined point in time.

Consider this: If the issuer wants to get more funds using different terms, it makes no sense to give away free money to the people with whom the issuer already has a contract. The issuer can simply create a new bond with different terms and if the market wants that, the market will buy the bonds.

Again, your proposal is simply asking for more money with nothing in return. The issuer has no motivation what so ever to give you that, unless it is out of a charitable approach, in which case I would question the issuer's financial acumen and probably keep that in mind for any future assets from that issuer.

If you do not like the terms of your contract, you can sell. If you like the terms of the contract, you can buy. Trying to renegotiate with a single-sided benefit only will not work.

.b

Anyway just a suggestion here ..the cost to double its hashrate per bond is very small ,since this issuer already hold enough shares of AM to allows him to doing that .. post a new contract for bonds not only will cost him, also will led ripped out of its old investors. .Remember here double its hashrate is not equal to double in dividend..Anyway this is not a single side benefit , as I stated if the issuer is consider to growth its business and get more available funds for him to invest in, that to boost his IPO process finished is still the cheapest way and most effective way.. As long as people are doubt of BFL.....

[SOSLOVE868]

OK...But the truth here is PAJKA BOND does not finish its IPO process....This only depend on whether the issuer try to quickly finished its IPO or not...if not...I think he will absolutely accepted the low trading volume in the market......if he urgently needs capital to fundraising its project..like I say that ordering Blade or other mining rigs..... I do not have the time to do the math for you ...but I can tell you if the IPO is finished in very short time, the issuer can get more funds to buy those rigs...and the funds he received can produce double value in a year......Remember since all fund is received in BTC and all rigs are pay in BTC...The issuer can double its capitals in a year time...without the risk of volatility of BTC...

I've done the math, so don't worry about that. I just don't see why you think it makes sense for anyone to give money away. If the issuer does not have the funds to complete the contract, then that is a completely different issue, but as far as I've been able to understand, that is not the issue here as the current hashrate is backed well by AM shares and funds and the expected increase later is at an undefined point in time.

Consider this: If the issuer wants to get more funds using different terms, it makes no sense to give away free money to the people with whom the issuer already has a contract. The issuer can simply create a new bond with different terms and if the market wants that, the market will buy the bonds.

Again, your proposal is simply asking for more money with nothing in return. The issuer has no motivation what so ever to give you that, unless it is out of a charitable approach, in which case I would question the issuer's financial acumen and probably keep that in mind for any future assets from that issuer.

If you do not like the terms of your contract, you can sell. If you like the terms of the contract, you can buy. Trying to renegotiate with a single-sided benefit only will not work.

.b

Anyway just a suggestion here ..the cost to double its hashrate per bond is very small ,since this issuer already hold enough shares of AM to allows him to doing that .. post a new contract for bonds not only will cost him, also will led ripped out of its old investors. .Remember here double its hashrate is not equal to double in dividend..Anyway this is not a single side benefit , as I stated if the issuer is consider to growth its business and get more available funds for him to invest in, that to boost his IPO process finished is still the cheapest way and most effective way.. As long as people are doubt of BFL.....

And there are also a time lag will beneficiary to the issuer...If Pajka bond will upgrade or degrade its hashrate by each 12 TH that AM has deployed...than from the range 24-48.....during this time Pajka bond only ask to pay dividend regard to 24 TH....therefore any dividend exceed that contracted 24TH will be received by the issuer.....As long as the most dividend are backing by the 200 AM shares hold in the issuer...those he will not require to pay extra cost on it....and once the IPO finished he can received around 1000 BTC...and if he used all those funds to purchased BLADE from AM..he can roughly get 2000BTC after a year....

[furuknap]

Anyway just a suggestion here ..the cost to double its hashrate per bond is very small ,since this issuer already hold enough shares of AM to allows him to doing that .. post a new contract for bonds not only will cost him, also will led ripped out of its old investors. .Remember here double its hashrate is not equal to double in dividend..Anyway this is not a single side benefit , as I stated if the issuer is consider to growth its business and get more available funds for him to invest in, that to boost his IPO process finished is still the cheapest way and most effective way.. As long as people are doubt of BFL.....

Now you're making even less sense.

It doesn't matter how the issuer has or gets the money; there's no incentive to give it to you!

And why would anyone feel cheated for an issuer issuing another bond? Would you feel cheated if your bank gave another loan to a different customer on different terms?

This is not a business; it is a bond. There is no business to grow. It is simply a loan of money and no point in growing. In fact, the whole point of getting a loan is to finance something that gives you more in return.

It is probably easier for you to understand if you completely ignore the mining aspect of this. The mining aspect is irrelevant because you do not care how you get the money, you care only for getting the money. Whether there is a mining operation behind, a set of stocks, or just a kind uncle paying the interest (which is what you're getting; don't kid yourself on the dividend thing) is completely irrelevant to you as long as you get what the contract states.

Look at TAT.VM pending on BTCT. It is a mining bond that isn't backed by mining at all, it is backed, perpetually, by proceeeds from holding AM shares. That doesn't matter to anyone; the interest is fixed at whatever 1MH/s yields for a given period. TAT can fund this from growing pot in his backyard for all you care.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

Anyway just a suggestion here ..the cost to double its hashrate per bond is very small ,since this issuer already hold enough shares of AM to allows him to doing that .. post a new contract for bonds not only will cost him, also will led ripped out of its old investors. .Remember here double its hashrate is not equal to double in dividend..Anyway this is not a single side benefit , as I stated if the issuer is consider to growth its business and get more available funds for him to invest in, that to boost his IPO process finished is still the cheapest way and most effective way.. As long as people are doubt of BFL.....

Now you're making even less sense.

It doesn't matter how the issuer has or gets the money; there's no incentive to give it to you!

And why would anyone feel cheated for an issuer issuing another bond? Would you feel cheated if your bank gave another loan to a different customer on different terms?

This is not a business; it is a bond. There is no business to grow. It is simply a loan of money and no point in growing. In fact, the whole point of getting a loan is to finance something that gives you more in return.

It is probably easier for you to understand if you completely ignore the mining aspect of this. The mining aspect is irrelevant because you do not care how you get the money, you care only for getting the money. Whether there is a mining operation behind, a set of stocks, or just a kind uncle paying the interest (which is what you're getting; don't kid yourself on the dividend thing) is completely irrelevant to you as long as you get what the contract states.

Look at TAT.VM pending on BTCT. It is a mining bond that isn't backed by mining at all, it is backed, perpetually, by proceeeds from holding AM shares. That doesn't matter to anyone; the interest is fixed at whatever 1MH/s yields for a given period. TAT can fund this from growing pot in his backyard for all you care.

.b

I know this is bond...of course....the question here is simple whether the issuer wants to finish his IPO and get BTC in hand to purchase more rigs and double capital in a year time and also increase the confidence of its bond holders...or no update , Bondholder received less and less dividend until it become 0.00000001 per shares.....and buying back his bonds at incredibly low price.....I think PMB is really a good business to get in...I might also consider to set up one for my self....hah

[furuknap]

I know this is bond...of course....the question here is simple whether the issuer wants to finish his IPO and get BTC in hand to purchase more rigs and double capital in a year time and also increase the confidence of its bond holders...or no update , Bondholder received less and less dividend until it become 0.00000001 per shares.....and buying back his bonds at incredibly low price.....I think PMB is really a good business to get in...I might also consider to set up one for my self....hah

The whole point of a PMB is that the interest grows to zero over time, as long as difficulty increases. This is exactly the same as a loan, in which interest eventually decreases to zero. The main difference is that if difficulty does not go up, the interest is higher. With a loan, the interest gets higher based on the general economy (if it has a flexible interest at all).

How on earth can you even consider investing in a PMB, much less set one up, unless you understand these extremely basic concepts?

Hang on, I have an idea. Why don't I lend you 100 BTC at an interest of 10% per year. Then, as you pay down, I'll come and ask you to pay 15% instead, just because, you know, you want you to build confidence. Then, I'll tell you how to use those 100 BTC and if you don't use them the way I say, I'll bitch that you could have made much more money if you did like I said and probably say that you're a bad manager who doesn't listen to his lenders.

Oh, and by accepting my loan, you're forbidden to take up any other loan for any purpose from anyone ever again regardless of terms because doing so would ruin my confidence in you.

Does that sound like a reasonable plan? If not, why would you suggest the exact same thing to the issuer of PAJKA?

Geez, I'm going to have to write an article to explain this...

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

I know this is bond...of course....the question here is simple whether the issuer wants to finish his IPO and get BTC in hand to purchase more rigs and double capital in a year time and also increase the confidence of its bond holders...or no update , Bondholder received less and less dividend until it become 0.00000001 per shares.....and buying back his bonds at incredibly low price.....I think PMB is really a good business to get in...I might also consider to set up one for my self....hah

The whole point of a PMB is that the interest grows to zero over time, as long as difficulty increases. This is exactly the same as a loan, in which interest eventually decreases to zero. The main difference is that if difficulty does not go up, the interest is higher. With a loan, the interest gets higher based on the general economy (if it has a flexible interest at all).

How on earth can you even consider investing in a PMB, much less set one up, unless you understand these extremely basic concepts?

Hang on, I have an idea. Why don't I lend you 100 BTC at an interest of 10% per year. Then, as you pay down, I'll come and ask you to pay 15% instead, just because, you know, you want you to build confidence. Then, I'll tell you how to use those 100 BTC and if you don't use them the way I say, I'll bitch that you could have made much more money if you did like I said and probably say that you're a bad manager who doesn't listen to his lenders.

Oh, and by accepting my loan, you're forbidden to take up any other loan for any purpose from anyone ever again regardless of terms because doing so would ruin my confidence in you.

Does that sound like a reasonable plan? If not, why would you suggest the exact same thing to the issuer of PAJKA?

Geez, I'm going to have to write an article to explain this...

.b

Lending money from bank require collateral....PMB not.....Lending money from banks certainly involving monitoring process to the business..
PBM not...thus your propose here is not applicable. Interest rate is different to the hashrate here....Interest rate is pre-determined and will not change by anything else(book value is fixed)...Hashrate is not equal to interest rate...(Hashrate will absolutely increase over time)....therefore the dividend received by its shareholder is will definitely decrease)...I am not giving any unreasonable suggestion here, I am saying that PAJKA could secure its dividend to its shareholder's by link up with ASICMINER'S hashrate...As I invested this bonds because the issuer has hold AM's shares as HASHRATE power to generate dividend to me....this is the place I consider those ASICMINER's shares are the Collaterals to allows me to trusted this issuer......thus I think I have the right to ask the shareholder increase this bond's hashrate.......if without link up with those ASICMINER'S shares I do not believe the issuer can get trusted by new investors.....

[furuknap]

Lending money from bank require collateral....PMB not.....Lending money from banks certainly involving monitoring process to the business..
PBM not...thus your propose here is not applicable. Interest rate is different to the hashrate here....Interest rate is pre-determined and will not change by anything else(book value is fixed)...Hashrate is not equal to interest rate...(Hashrate will absolutely increase over time)....therefore the dividend received by its shareholder is will definitely decrease)...I am not giving any unreasonable suggestion here, I am saying that PAJKA could secure its dividend to its shareholder's by link up with ASICMINER'S hashrate...As I invested this bonds because the issuer has hold AM's shares as HASHRATE power to generate dividend to me....this is the place I consider those ASICMINER's shares are the Collaterals to allows me to trusted this issuer......thus I think I have the right to ask the shareholder increase this bond's hashrate.......if without link up with those ASICMINER'S shares I do not believe the issuer can get trusted by new investors.....

Well, obviously you really do not know how bonds work. I hope you don't get burned by that lack of knowledge, but I'm afraid that if you expect a bond issuer to just give you money out of the kindness of their hearts, then you'll definitely be burned.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

Lending money from bank require collateral....PMB not.....Lending money from banks certainly involving monitoring process to the business..
PBM not...thus your propose here is not applicable. Interest rate is different to the hashrate here....Interest rate is pre-determined and will not change by anything else(book value is fixed)...Hashrate is not equal to interest rate...(Hashrate will absolutely increase over time)....therefore the dividend received by its shareholder is will definitely decrease)...I am not giving any unreasonable suggestion here, I am saying that PAJKA could secure its dividend to its shareholder's by link up with ASICMINER'S hashrate...As I invested this bonds because the issuer has hold AM's shares as HASHRATE power to generate dividend to me....this is the place I consider those ASICMINER's shares are the Collaterals to allows me to trusted this issuer......thus I think I have the right to ask the shareholder increase this bond's hashrate.......if without link up with those ASICMINER'S shares I do not believe the issuer can get trusted by new investors.....

Well, obviously you really do not know how bonds work. I hope you don't get burned by that lack of knowledge, but I'm afraid that if you expect a bond issuer to just give you money out of the kindness of their hearts, then you'll definitely be burned.

.b

I do not need to know...if I see my return is not good in the future..I am better to exit the market now....

[SOSLOVE868]

Lending money from bank require collateral....PMB not.....Lending money from banks certainly involving monitoring process to the business..
PBM not...thus your propose here is not applicable. Interest rate is different to the hashrate here....Interest rate is pre-determined and will not change by anything else(book value is fixed)...Hashrate is not equal to interest rate...(Hashrate will absolutely increase over time)....therefore the dividend received by its shareholder is will definitely decrease)...I am not giving any unreasonable suggestion here, I am saying that PAJKA could secure its dividend to its shareholder's by link up with ASICMINER'S hashrate...As I invested this bonds because the issuer has hold AM's shares as HASHRATE power to generate dividend to me....this is the place I consider those ASICMINER's shares are the Collaterals to allows me to trusted this issuer......thus I think I have the right to ask the shareholder increase this bond's hashrate.......if without link up with those ASICMINER'S shares I do not believe the issuer can get trusted by new investors.....

Well, obviously you really do not know how bonds work. I hope you don't get burned by that lack of knowledge, but I'm afraid that if you expect a bond issuer to just give you money out of the kindness of their hearts, then you'll definitely be burned.

.b

I do not need to know...if I see my return is not good in the future..I am better to exit the market now....

And curiously want to know...do you hold any amount of PAJKA bond?

[furuknap]

And curiously want to know...do you hold any amount of PAJKA bond?

I do.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

And curiously want to know...do you hold any amount of PAJKA bond?

I do.

.b

How many???

[furuknap]

And curiously want to know...do you hold any amount of PAJKA bond?

I do.

.b

How many???

Why is that relevant to anything? Assume the answer is either 1, 37, 2643 of 25000. What does that have to do with anything?

I wrote you an article to hopefully get you to understand a bit about what a mining bond is:

http://coin.furuknap.net/understanding-mining-bonds/

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

And curiously want to know...do you hold any amount of PAJKA bond?

I do.

.b

How many???

Why is that relevant to anything? Assume the answer is either 1, 37, 2643 of 25000. What does that have to do with anything?

I wrote you an article to hopefully get you to understand a bit about what a mining bond is:

http://coin.furuknap.net/understanding-mining-bonds/

.b

I just read through your article, it is not doubt you have wrote a good peace of work...

Let's back to our topic....I have sold out most of my Pajka bond.....the reason is very simple...Although I made some loss on the sell, I am not regret  ..I use calculation if the net work increase difficulty each 12 days by 10% I am looking for 3481 days to recovery my principle!!! this almost 10 years...I think all people here is betting on that BFL will delivery, but I just do not trust anything relate to BFL....therefore lose right now...still better than waiting for almost 10 years to recovery...in 10 years time!!!!!BTCT might not even exist!!!who does you going to claim your investment??

[SOSLOVE868]

And curiously want to know...do you hold any amount of PAJKA bond?

I do.

.b

How many???

Why is that relevant to anything? Assume the answer is either 1, 37, 2643 of 25000. What does that have to do with anything?

I wrote you an article to hopefully get you to understand a bit about what a mining bond is:

http://coin.furuknap.net/understanding-mining-bonds/

.b

I just read through your article, it is not doubt you have wrote a good peace of work...

Let's back to our topic....I have sold out most of my Pajka bond.....the reason is very simple...Although I made some loss on the sell, I am not regret  ..I use calculation if the net work increase difficulty each 12 days by 10% I am looking for 3481 days to recovery my principle!!! this almost 10 years...I think all people here is betting on that BFL will delivery, but I just do not trust anything relate to BFL....therefore lose right now...still better than waiting for almost 10 years to recovery...in 10 years time!!!!!BTCT might not even exist!!!who does you going to claim your investment??

I appreciate your writing and this could greatly help newbies to understanding mining bond... I do not care what mining bond it is ,the only thing I care is about the risk of my investment...I will never call a investment that need take 3481 days to recovery as a good opportunity...as I state non of other people will consider in this way indeed!!! if the issuer  maintain his contract in ordinary way and not take my suggestion. then it just a nice trap...you guys are betting on BFL....sorry I am out.....you still can hold it and wait for it ....I hope you lucky enough that BFL will delivery!!!

[SOSLOVE868]

And curiously want to know...do you hold any amount of PAJKA bond?

I do.

.b

How many???

Why is that relevant to anything? Assume the answer is either 1, 37, 2643 of 25000. What does that have to do with anything?

I wrote you an article to hopefully get you to understand a bit about what a mining bond is:

http://coin.furuknap.net/understanding-mining-bonds/

.b

The answer is also important...as I hold about 500 contracts!this almost 1/8 of total contract sold... math never lie , I do not want to share the risk of the mistake made by this owner...which is he did order from BFL....this risk is too high!!!!! 10 years to recovery the principle??? you must be kidding!!!

[furuknap]

SOS, to be honest, I think perhaps you may want to relax a bit in your investments. It is clear that you don't accurately grasp all the factors and that you may need to work on your math a bit to avoid burning yourself on your investments and losing money.

This isn't relevant to PAJKA, though, so I suggest you look elsewhere for some general advice. Perhaps investing in a fund is a better option for you?

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

SOS, to be honest, I think perhaps you may want to relax a bit in your investments. It is clear that you don't accurately grasp all the factors and that you may need to work on your math a bit to avoid burning yourself on your investments and losing money.

This isn't relevant to PAJKA, though, so I suggest you look elsewhere for some general advice. Perhaps investing in a fund is a better option for you?

.b

Nevermind, difficulty has increase today....and it take 5518 days for those PAJKA holder to recovery their initial investment...and make profit...

I am happy that you like this investment....!!! So you can wait for 5518 days to collect you funds back...Don't try to convince me....Under current market situation if PMB does't not specific out when the issuer will buying back the bond...this is a trap....!!!!I will never invest any my money into it!!!I just can not get back it for sure..... of course you can hold and wait for more than 10 years to get your money back ,this is your choice...

[xkrikl]

How about if bfl is not deliver nor refund the BTC back to you ? what will you do then?

Great question, it doesn't look like BFL will deliver so I guess you would buy out the fund.

Well, I believe that BFL will deliver sooner or later.
In case BFL goes bankrupt ... I might consider buying the bonds back ... but the question is at what price ...
What price do you see fair? 0.1 BTC minus all paid dividends? No, that's too much ... but how much ... that's a question.
Some people bought into 0.3mhash/s bonds, some bought into 1.5mhash/s bonds all with the risk that they might never reach even 3mhash/s ...
When PAJKA.BOND was selling as 1.5mhash/s bond per 0.1BTC it was cheaper than other mining bonds and now after upgrade it gave already nice dividends.
Now the difficulty went a bit higher and new mining bonds/companies backed by ASIC showed up at lower prices.

If you buy now you take a risk that BFL will bankrupt but you know the price (it may be higher when BFL delivers) and get the dividends from 3mhash/s until they deliver.
The choice is yours.

[xkrikl]

I understand that PAJKA is bond not a shares....Since PAJKA bond does double its dividend as ASICMINER reached 12TH/S....and I remember that PAJKA BOND'S dividend is part backing by ASICMINER'S hashrate....therefore I wrote this suggestion to the issuer...this may be the time to double its hashrate per bond...

The doubling was part of the contract you purchased. You didn't answer my question; what does the issuer get in return for giving you more money? At this point, you're only begging for money but not offering anything in return.

.b

The return here is simple, by assurance to investors confidence of this bond.will increase its rate of acceptance of this bond...and the shareholder could generate more BTC in short time...Currently market price for ASICMINER'S BLADE is cost 50 BTC..it will pay out itself in 145 days.....if PAJKA finished its IPO process as quick as possibly...the funds still can pay out far weighted its cost....

I'm struggling to grasp the accurate meaning of what you're saying, but you're solely talking about benefits to you. Let's make it simple.

DO NOT mention share price, as this is solely a benefit to you (and is irrelevant to the issuer because the bonds on the market are already sold)
DO NOT mention hashrate, as this is solely a benefit to you (and is an added expense to the issuer which is a pretty clear disadvantage)

Now explain to me, what does the issuer get out of this, considering the bonds on the market are already sold at a well-known and clear-cut contract?

Remember, don't mention shareprice or dividends; those either do not benefit the issuer or benefits you only.

.b

OK...But the truth here is PAJKA BOND does not finish its IPO process....This only depend on whether the issuer try to quickly finished its IPO or not...if not...I think he will absolutely accepted the low trading volume in the market......if he urgently needs capital to fundraising its project..like I say that ordering Blade or other mining rigs..... I do not have the time to do the math for you ...but I can tell you if the IPO is finished in very short time, the issuer can get more funds to buy those rigs...and the funds he received can produce double value in a year......Remember since all fund is received in BTC and all rigs are pay in BTC...The issuer can double its capitals in a year time...without the risk of volatility of BTC...

Guys, you made quite a long discussion here.
You are right that the IPO is not 100% complete but I wrote that I plan on selling the rest when BFL delivers at price decided when the upgrade to 15mhash/s happens.
I don't plan to increase the payout until I have real ASICs in hand.

[furuknap]

SOS, to be honest, I think perhaps you may want to relax a bit in your investments. It is clear that you don't accurately grasp all the factors and that you may need to work on your math a bit to avoid burning yourself on your investments and losing money.

This isn't relevant to PAJKA, though, so I suggest you look elsewhere for some general advice. Perhaps investing in a fund is a better option for you?

.b

Nevermind, difficulty has increase today....and it take 5518 days for those PAJKA holder to recovery their initial investment...and make profit...

I am happy that you like this investment....!!! So you can wait for 5518 days to collect you funds back...Don't try to convince me....Under current market situation if PMB does't not specific out when the issuer will buying back the bond...this is a trap....!!!!I will never invest any my money into it!!!I just can not get back it for sure..... of course you can hold and wait for more than 10 years to get your money back ,this is your choice...

You believe your math is correct, so you sell, and that is your prerogative as an investor.

If you are confident in your decision, however, I don't understand why you don't sell everything, considering you claim to have sold some and that the rest must be equally unprofitable as the ones you've already sold. As far as I can see, there are sill bids up.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

SOS, to be honest, I think perhaps you may want to relax a bit in your investments. It is clear that you don't accurately grasp all the factors and that you may need to work on your math a bit to avoid burning yourself on your investments and losing money.

This isn't relevant to PAJKA, though, so I suggest you look elsewhere for some general advice. Perhaps investing in a fund is a better option for you?

.b

Nevermind, difficulty has increase today....and it take 5518 days for those PAJKA holder to recovery their initial investment...and make profit...

I am happy that you like this investment....!!! So you can wait for 5518 days to collect you funds back...Don't try to convince me....Under current market situation if PMB does't not specific out when the issuer will buying back the bond...this is a trap....!!!!I will never invest any my money into it!!!I just can not get back it for sure..... of course you can hold and wait for more than 10 years to get your money back ,this is your choice...

You believe your math is correct, so you sell, and that is your prerogative as an investor.

If you are confident in your decision, however, I don't understand why you don't sell everything, considering you claim to have sold some and that the rest must be equally unprofitable as the ones you've already sold. As far as I can see, there are sill bids up.

.b

I tried to sell everything...but the market does not appreciate this bonds....this why I have been stuck here....

[carnitastaco]

How about if bfl is not deliver nor refund the BTC back to you ? what will you do then?

Great question, it doesn't look like BFL will deliver so I guess you would buy out the fund.

Well, I believe that BFL will deliver sooner or later.
In case BFL goes bankrupt ... I might consider buying the bonds back ... but the question is at what price ...
What price do you see fair? 0.1 BTC minus all paid dividends? No, that's too much ... but how much ... that's a question.
Some people bought into 0.3mhash/s bonds, some bought into 1.5mhash/s bonds all with the risk that they might never reach even 3mhash/s ...
When PAJKA.BOND was selling as 1.5mhash/s bond per 0.1BTC it was cheaper than other mining bonds and now after upgrade it gave already nice dividends.
Now the difficulty went a bit higher and new mining bonds/companies backed by ASIC showed up at lower prices.

If you buy now you take a risk that BFL will bankrupt but you know the price (it may be higher when BFL delivers) and get the dividends from 3mhash/s until they deliver.
The choice is yours.

I'm confused, your contract states exactly how much you would pay to buy the bonds back, and why does BFL have anything to do with your bond?  You offered a 1.5 MH bond (now 3 MH.)  your contract on BTCTC states that you can buy out the bonds at 110% of the average 15 day price.

are these wrong?

[SOSLOVE868]

How about if bfl is not deliver nor refund the BTC back to you ? what will you do then?

Great question, it doesn't look like BFL will deliver so I guess you would buy out the fund.

Well, I believe that BFL will deliver sooner or later.
In case BFL goes bankrupt ... I might consider buying the bonds back ... but the question is at what price ...
What price do you see fair? 0.1 BTC minus all paid dividends? No, that's too much ... but how much ... that's a question.
Some people bought into 0.3mhash/s bonds, some bought into 1.5mhash/s bonds all with the risk that they might never reach even 3mhash/s ...
When PAJKA.BOND was selling as 1.5mhash/s bond per 0.1BTC it was cheaper than other mining bonds and now after upgrade it gave already nice dividends.
Now the difficulty went a bit higher and new mining bonds/companies backed by ASIC showed up at lower prices.

If you buy now you take a risk that BFL will bankrupt but you know the price (it may be higher when BFL delivers) and get the dividends from 3mhash/s until they deliver.
The choice is yours.

I'm confused, your contract states exactly how much you would pay to buy the bonds back, and why does BFL have anything to do with your bond?  You offered a 1.5 MH bond (now 3 MH.)  your contract on BTCTC states that you can buy out the bonds at 110% of the average 15 day price.

are these wrong?

the problem of PMB is only stated that issuer has the right to buying back the bonds at anytime...  because it does not specific a time...this why , if the difficulty will increase 20X times from now to next year!!! then it means almost not cost for the issuer to keep the money..... The issuer never break any contract...they just exploit it!!!  I will never ever buying any PMB contract....I feel been cheated....

[furuknap]

I will never ever buying any PMB contract....I feel been cheated....

So... First you don't know what you're buying. Then you buy something without reading the contract. And now you're pissed at the seller because you didn't do your research.

Needless to say, your plead for sympathy weighs about as much as your math skills, which suck, but hey, it's your money.

Next time you decide to invest in something you don't understand, I'll save you from a lot of waitning and public humiliation; you can just send me your money instead.

.b

[furuknap]

I'm confused, your contract states exactly how much you would pay to buy the bonds back, and why does BFL have anything to do with your bond?  You offered a 1.5 MH bond (now 3 MH.)  your contract on BTCTC states that you can buy out the bonds at 110% of the average 15 day price.

are these wrong?

So far, this bond has delivered exactly what the contract states. I'm not sure why you would assume that the contract would now suddenly be wrong?

BFL is relevant because these are the ASICs mentioned in contract that will increase hashrate by 5x (from 3mhs to 15mhs). Thus, when those arrive, dividens should increase by 5x as well.

To briefly comment on our friend SOS' math, at the moment, PAJKA hashes at 1/25 of what ASICMiner does per share and trades at less than 1/25 of AM. When BFL delivers their units, PAJKA will hash at 1/5 of AM per share.

Don't be deceived by this alone, though, because AM is a share and PAJKA is a bond.

However, when you realize that AM has a yield of roughly 30% per year sans hardware and halving effect, PAJKA having a yield of less than 7% like SOS claims is just nonsense. The math doesn't work at all and I haven't found any way to come up with a numer that yields a 15 year ROI.

.b

[jjdub7]

People who mention an IPO obviously don't know the premise behind a coupon-paying bond...same thing with US treasuries, this isn't a sale of equity, but rather an open-market issuance of debt.  There's no hard cap on the number of shares that can contractually be issued  because you're not buying into physical assets/there's no equity backing the bonds (as opposed to the normal case with stocks, where the stockholder is promised his or her share of the company assets in the event of liquidation, although in many cases of BTC stocks, even this isn't promised).

[carnitastaco]

So far, this bond has delivered exactly what the contract states. I'm not sure why you would assume that the contract would now suddenly be wrong?

re-read what I quoted, he was speculating about the price he would buyout shares, when he already had terms for a buyout listed. I didn't assume it's wrong, I asked.

[furuknap]

So far, this bond has delivered exactly what the contract states. I'm not sure why you would assume that the contract would now suddenly be wrong?

re-read what I quoted, he was speculating about the price he would buyout shares, when he already had terms for a buyout listed. I didn't assume it's wrong, I asked.

OK, so let's be pedantic.

So far, this bond has delivered exactly what the contract states. I'm not sure why you would ask if contract would now suddenly be wrong?

.b

[furuknap]

People who mention an IPO obviously don't know the premise behind a coupon-paying bond...same thing with US treasuries, this isn't a sale of equity, but rather an open-market issuance of debt.  There's no hard cap on the number of shares that can contractually be issued  because you're not buying into physical assets/there's no equity backing the bonds (as opposed to the normal case with stocks, where the stockholder is promised his or her share of the company assets in the event of liquidation, although in many cases of BTC stocks, even this isn't promised).

Good point, and I think I'll include this in my article if you don't mind me referencing you?

.b

[jjdub7]

People who mention an IPO obviously don't know the premise behind a coupon-paying bond...same thing with US treasuries, this isn't a sale of equity, but rather an open-market issuance of debt.  There's no hard cap on the number of shares that can contractually be issued  because you're not buying into physical assets/there's no equity backing the bonds (as opposed to the normal case with stocks, where the stockholder is promised his or her share of the company assets in the event of liquidation, although in many cases of BTC stocks, even this isn't promised).

Good point, and I think I'll include this in my article if you don't mind me referencing you?

.b

Sure thing, mate.  And although I guess you could technically use the term IPO to describe any public offering of assets, its generally not used to describe bonds - not trying to be disparaging toward anyone, just trying to make sure we're all using the right terminology.  For example, the reference to resistance and support levels as "walls" on this forum drives me slightly insane. 

[BTCThousandaire]

Please everyone stop selling the bonds. I am not selling, the returns are fine for now. I don't think it's time to cash out yet.

[furuknap]

Please everyone stop selling the bonds. I am not selling, the returns are fine for now. I don't think it's time to cash out yet.

The other aspect of this is that the issuer can repurchase the bonds at well below issuing price because one whiny kid didn't get the first thing about investment.

.b

[jjdub7]

I can't understand why people are selling right now, either.  The bond has one of the highest returns of the assets on BTC-TC even in its pre-upgrade state.  And apparently BFL has actually started shipping on a limited basis (there are reports of units coming in, and while it could be spam, its starting to sound like they're starting to legitimize themselves).

EDIT: And at these now-lower prices, its going to drive that return through the roof.  Its not like there's as much risk associated with these bonds as there is with stocks...

[furuknap]

I can't understand why people are selling right now, either.  

You say 'people' like it would indicate more than one person. The volume these past few days isn't more than SOS claims to have dumped. It seems that the embarrasment of publicly demonstrating and admitting lack of knowledge wasn't enough, so a financial self-slap in the face was required.

I'm not sure if SOS is trying to get back at the issuer or me, but suffice to say, I've made some purchases these past couple of days :-)

.b

EDIT: You don't have to look further than the trade patterns to see that this is just someone trying to drive the price down. Whenever there is a market buy, a single share is sold at market bid to give the illusion of a downward trend. It's silly, really, but let him cry himself to sleep...

[hl5460]

PAJKA's div is 10870 satoshi@0.07      while TAT's virutualmine div is 3223 satishi@0.0072 . You do the math.....

[jjdub7]

PAJKA's div is 10870 satoshi@0.07      while TAT's virutualmine div is 3223 satishi@0.0072 . You do the math.....

Then if investors are smart, they'll bid up the price of TAT's bond to match the rate of return of PAJKA's within seconds of the issuance...

EDIT:  And I mean this from a two-sided perspective.  PAJKA bond-holders, DO NOT SELL.  This is classic game theory with two alternatives - either PAJKA holders will sell low or TAT holders will bid up.  If the PAJKA group holds their ask line, it should drive the TAT price up.

Also, why would TAT offer such a higher coupon (its a coupon in this case - dividends are via stocks) when he's perfectly free to match PAJKA's rate or JAH's rate on BitFunder?  To me, it seems like he's overpaying, especially with the reputation he's built up with the AM micro-PT...

[Kyune]

PAJKA's div is 10870 satoshi@0.07      while TAT's virutualmine div is 3223 satishi@0.0072 . You do the math.....

Then if investors are smart, they'll bid up the price of TAT's bond to match the rate of return of PAJKA's within seconds of the issuance...

The extra zero after the decimal in the share price for TAT means TAT pays better presently.  I think hl5460 was trying to say TAT is a better deal and PAJKA is overpriced.

But what complicates the comparison is the prospect that PAJKA will, at some future date uncertain, begin receiving a 5x multiplier to its dividend.  TAT has no such prospect.

[hl5460]

PAJKA's div is 10870 satoshi@0.07      while TAT's virutualmine div is 3223 satishi@0.0072 . You do the math.....

Then if investors are smart, they'll bid up the price of TAT's bond to match the rate of return of PAJKA's within seconds of the issuance...

EDIT:  And I mean this from a two-sided perspective.  PAJKA bond-holders, DO NOT SELL.  This is classic game theory with two alternatives - either PAJKA holders will sell low or TAT holders will bid up.  If the PAJKA group holds their ask line, it should drive the TAT price up.

Also, why would TAT offer such a higher coupon (its a coupon in this case - dividends are via stocks) when he's perfectly free to match PAJKA's rate or JAH's rate on BitFunder?  To me, it seems like he's overpaying, especially with the reputation he's built up with the AM micro-PT...

Option 1: bid up PAJKA.
Option 2: Dump PAJKA.
Plus both TAT and PAJKA's divs are dropping dramatically as dif goes up.

[furuknap]

PAJKA's div is 10870 satoshi@0.07      while TAT's virutualmine div is 3223 satishi@0.0072 . You do the math.....

Then if investors are smart, they'll bid up the price of TAT's bond to match the rate of return of PAJKA's within seconds of the issuance...

You assume a rational market. A market, mind you, that includes people like SOS who would rather give money away in a vain attempt to hurt someone than just walk away with money in his pocket.

PAJKA is not necessarily a better deal than TAT.VM. At some point, PAJKA will pay the equivalent (by today's standard) of 54280 satoshis per share, whereas TAT.VM is currencly paying around 30000 satoshis at a comparable price.

Will TAT.VM's 'lead' of 19K satoshis lead until BFL ships be enough to offset the lead PAJKA will get until bonds are unprofitable? That depends on when BFL ships to PAJKA. It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be, though.

.b

[jjdub7]

Yes, assuming the rational market...if PAJKA holders hold, TAT's debt should increase if his bond price is bid up, making this a potentially very dangerous bet for TAT in the long run if he cannot maintain cash flows (however, I've followed TAT's activity and he seems to know what he's doing).  Yet if the ask on TAT's bonds rises, this would mean it would be much, much harder for him to initiate a buyback of his debt under his current contract...

[jjdub7]

And also, SOS hasn't hurt anyone.  I don't plan on selling anytime soon, so the current market conditions are irrelevant to me.  Keep in mind everyone that the bond itself isn't worth BTC...its price is determined by the PDV of future coupon payments and every market participant's preferences for liquidity and risk (risk being virtually only determined by the change in difficulty - this is where the TAT investment gets dicey IMO because there is no option to upgrade).

[Tafelpoot]

Hey xkrikl, can you give some more details on your BFL order?
Which & how many units did you order?
I assume it will restore thrust in the shares.
Thanks

[furuknap]

Hey xkrikl, can you give some more details on your BFL order?
Which & how many units did you order?
I assume it will restore thrust in the shares.
Thanks

They are bonds, not shares.

And why would you worry about what the order is? It can be from the Unicorn series of which PAJKA is the only customer. You get 15 mhs regardless.

The order number, which may indicate shipping priority, is here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86279.msg1746782#msg1746782

.b

[Tafelpoot]

I had seen that. However he got another proposal for some jalapenos, with order nr around 18k.
Those will ship most likely in about 2 weeks ... But if he ordered a minirig, it may take way longer...
BTW, I'm not worrying. The sell panic has got me some good deals.

[SOSLOVE868]

PAJKA's div is 10870 satoshi@0.07      while TAT's virutualmine div is 3223 satishi@0.0072 . You do the math.....

Then if investors are smart, they'll bid up the price of TAT's bond to match the rate of return of PAJKA's within seconds of the issuance...

EDIT:  And I mean this from a two-sided perspective.  PAJKA bond-holders, DO NOT SELL.  This is classic game theory with two alternatives - either PAJKA holders will sell low or TAT holders will bid up.  If the PAJKA group holds their ask line, it should drive the TAT price up.

Also, why would TAT offer such a higher coupon (its a coupon in this case - dividends are via stocks) when he's perfectly free to match PAJKA's rate or JAH's rate on BitFunder?  To me, it seems like he's overpaying, especially with the reputation he's built up with the AM micro-PT...

Option 1: bid up PAJKA.
Option 2: Dump PAJKA.
Plus both TAT and PAJKA's divs are dropping dramatically as dif goes up.

Bad news for everyone buying TAT.V above 0.007 ,Because TAT has told in this forum, he will issue as many as he want...depend on the demand...another problem here, this guy is very smart...if he slowly issue new contract at 0.007 , if investors notice about it, it will caused less people willing to buy any price above 0.007... I hope you better understand the story here, TAT is continued issuing new shares...
If whole network difficult is steady increasing , during the time.... assume some one issuing another PMB with higher HASH RATE...this guy could be TAT....then it will turn to be very very difficult for current TAT.V holders to sell their BOND contract...Thus stuck in that position or sell at loss price!!!!!

PMB is god damn sick trap!!! I am happy I only lift 60 shares !!!! the only way you can win the issuer is BTC price damn drop....No body want to mining more.....the issuer takes money from you at current rate...but only needs to be pay you back at the price is damn low....!!!

if anyone think I am wrong, you better prove you are right!!!

[SOSLOVE868]

People who mention an IPO obviously don't know the premise behind a coupon-paying bond...same thing with US treasuries, this isn't a sale of equity, but rather an open-market issuance of debt.  There's no hard cap on the number of shares that can contractually be issued  because you're not buying into physical assets/there's no equity backing the bonds (as opposed to the normal case with stocks, where the stockholder is promised his or her share of the company assets in the event of liquidation, although in many cases of BTC stocks, even this isn't promised).

Good point, and I think I'll include this in my article if you don't mind me referencing you?

.b

I believe USA treasuries has a maturity date.....but how about this one??as long as mining is profitable, the difficulty will increase..and the improvement on developing those mining rigs ,is far beyond your think....If you now that ASICMINER only use 230NM technique to produce their Chips ...but the majority technique worldwide to produce chips is 5nm today(Intel or Navidian has 0.5NM)!!!!!  and if you do not believe what I said go do your math online....the difficulty has increase 26%(Even lot of miners not delivery yet)   since last time...you could use this figure to calculating what is the dividend three months later. and remember that difficulty adjust its self roughly 10 days a time.....

[SOSLOVE868]

PAJKA's div is 10870 satoshi@0.07      while TAT's virutualmine div is 3223 satishi@0.0072 . You do the math.....

Then if investors are smart, they'll bid up the price of TAT's bond to match the rate of return of PAJKA's within seconds of the issuance...

You assume a rational market. A market, mind you, that includes people like SOS who would rather give money away in a vain attempt to hurt someone than just walk away with money in his pocket.

PAJKA is not necessarily a better deal than TAT.VM. At some point, PAJKA will pay the equivalent (by today's standard) of 54280 satoshis per share, whereas TAT.VM is currencly paying around 30000 satoshis at a comparable price.

Will TAT.VM's 'lead' of 19K satoshis lead until BFL ships be enough to offset the lead PAJKA will get until bonds are unprofitable? That depends on when BFL ships to PAJKA. It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be, though.

.b

I hope you really get your money back at today's rate.....

[furuknap]

Thus stuck in that position or sell at loss price!!!!!

“Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind.”

PMB is god damn sick trap!!! I am happy I only lift 60 shares !!!!

It may have been a trap for you but only because you bought something you didn't understand. That is your failure, not that of the asset type.

And how to you 'lift' shares at all, not to mention these aren't shares but bonds?

You further mentioned that you held 450 'shares' just a few days ago. Are these lifting shares related to that number in any way?

if anyone think I am wrong, you better prove you are right!!!

That's not exactly how proving a claim works. It is whoever makes a claim that bears the burden of proof. However, I'm confidend that the majority understand how bonds work, even if you didn't. There is nothing for us to prove; it is you that is making the claim that this is a scam.

I hope you realize how you're looking in this forum right now and that you take a bit of time to relax, take a few steps back, and come back when you've read up on the basics.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

Thus stuck in that position or sell at loss price!!!!!

“Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind.”

PMB is god damn sick trap!!! I am happy I only lift 60 shares !!!!

It may have been a trap for you but only because you bought something you didn't understand. That is your failure, not that of the asset type.

And how to you 'lift' shares at all, not to mention these aren't shares but bonds?

You further mentioned that you held 450 'shares' just a few days ago. Are these lifting shares related to that number in any way?

if anyone think I am wrong, you better prove you are right!!!

That's not exactly how proving a claim works. It is whoever makes a claim that bears the burden of proof. However, I'm confidend that the majority understand how bonds work, even if you didn't. There is nothing for us to prove; it is you that is making the claim that this is a scam.

I hope you realize how you're looking in this forum right now and that you take a bit of time to relax, take a few steps back, and come back when you've read up on the basics.

.b

I am not native English speaker...If I use wrong words..just ignoring it....thanks
anyway, I just believe difficulty will increase more than 26% each ten days...because ASICs are coming...and the low technique was used for producing those chips......I did the math yesterdays....if difficulty increase 26% each ten days...then the dividend will soon become needless..(based on BTC price will increase, more and more people jumping with their ASIC).. and PMB assets only describe the shares has the right to buy it back at market price...In the long-run they absolutely has the right to pays you little dividend and perpetually holds your fund....if you think you can get dividend faster than the time your asset has loss its value...

[furuknap]

I believe USA treasuries has a maturity date.....but how about this one??

I believe the 'perpetual' part of the name had you confused?

as long as mining is profitable, the difficulty will increase..and the improvement on developing those mining rigs ,is far beyond your think....If you now that ASICMINER only use 230NM technique to produce their Chips ...but the majority technique worldwide to produce chips is 5nm today(Intel or Navidian has 0.5NM)!!!!!  and if you do not believe what I said go do your math online....the difficulty has increase 26%(Even lot of miners not delivery yet)   since last time...you could use this figure to calculating what is the dividend three months later. and remember that difficulty adjust its self roughly 10 days a time.....

Look, SOSLOVE, you are making such a fool of yourself that I'm wondering whether you are real or just a troll.

AM doesn't use 230nm. Nobody has 5nm chips anywhere and 0.5 nm is somewhat a physical impossibility as it would require splitting silicon atoms and still have silicon atoms at the end. It is estimated that a 5nm chip may come out in 2022. And even when they do, chip design isn't exchangable 1:1 for a new design.

So again you're demonstrating that you have no idea what you're talking about. I strongly suggest you stop making accusations and claims that have no basis in reality because you are easily proven wrong.

You are clearly going to lose more money if you base your investment on your own rationales so perhaps taking some time away from investing may be a good idea too? Perhaps buy into a fund instead?

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

Thus stuck in that position or sell at loss price!!!!!

“Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind.”

PMB is god damn sick trap!!! I am happy I only lift 60 shares !!!!

It may have been a trap for you but only because you bought something you didn't understand. That is your failure, not that of the asset type.

And how to you 'lift' shares at all, not to mention these aren't shares but bonds?

You further mentioned that you held 450 'shares' just a few days ago. Are these lifting shares related to that number in any way?

if anyone think I am wrong, you better prove you are right!!!

That's not exactly how proving a claim works. It is whoever makes a claim that bears the burden of proof. However, I'm confidend that the majority understand how bonds work, even if you didn't. There is nothing for us to prove; it is you that is making the claim that this is a scam.

I hope you realize how you're looking in this forum right now and that you take a bit of time to relax, take a few steps back, and come back when you've read up on the basics.

.b

increase difficulty 26% roughly equal to times 0.83 to current dividend....0.0001087X0.83(9) three months will adjust difficulty by 9 times.. after that 0.00002 ....total dividend needs to be paid for today's 4810 contracts  is 0.08 BTC..... and continue decrease......... because the contract never mentioned when the issuer will buying back.....if I am the issuer I will continued pay you the needless dividend....And do not hope anyone will buy over your contract at that time...

[furuknap]

I am not native English speaker...If I use wrong words..just ignoring it....thanks

That's fine, I'm not a native English speaker either, and I'm sure your English is better than my Spanish.

I'm still wondering what you mean by 'lifting' shares? Did you mean lost? Sold? Bought? Currently held?

and PMB assets only describe the shares has the right to buy it back at market price...In the long-run they absolutely has the right to pays you little dividend and perpetually holds your fund....if you think you can get dividend faster than the time your asset has loss its value...

Each PMB has its own set of terms that define if or when bonds are bought back. There is no general rule, except that the term perpetual usually indicates that bonds will not be bought back.

Reading up on the terms may be a good idea before you sign that contract.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

I am not native English speaker...If I use wrong words..just ignoring it....thanks

That's fine, I'm not a native English speaker either, and I'm sure your English is better than my Spanish.

I'm still wondering what you mean by 'lifting' shares? Did you mean lost? Sold? Bought? Currently held?

and PMB assets only describe the shares has the right to buy it back at market price...In the long-run they absolutely has the right to pays you little dividend and perpetually holds your fund....if you think you can get dividend faster than the time your asset has loss its value...

Each PMB has its own set of terms that define if or when bonds are bought back. There is no general rule, except that the term perpetual usually indicates that bonds will not be bought back.

Reading up on the terms may be a good idea before you sign that contract.

.b

I mean the current contract you still hold in your hand at that time in future...if the issuer pays needless dividend to you( not intend to buying back )  and nor body buying your contracts either, what will you do then?? I still have 61 contracts , if you really think this is a good deal, why don't you buying it ??I am offering a low price now....

[furuknap]

I still have 61 contracts , if you really think this is a good deal, why don't you buying it ??I am offering a low price now....

I already have bought a large chunk of your panic sold bonds. I have an investment profile that doesn't lend itself to further exposure right now, though.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

I am not native English speaker...If I use wrong words..just ignoring it....thanks

That's fine, I'm not a native English speaker either, and I'm sure your English is better than my Spanish.

I'm still wondering what you mean by 'lifting' shares? Did you mean lost? Sold? Bought? Currently held?

and PMB assets only describe the shares has the right to buy it back at market price...In the long-run they absolutely has the right to pays you little dividend and perpetually holds your fund....if you think you can get dividend faster than the time your asset has loss its value...

Each PMB has its own set of terms that define if or when bonds are bought back. There is no general rule, except that the term perpetual usually indicates that bonds will not be bought back.

Reading up on the terms may be a good idea before you sign that contract.

.b

So the only things here is I did math yesterday, I did calculation from a website...is chinese , but you can translator . for 3M HASH per 0.1 BTC take 4655 days to recovery all initial principle...based on each 12 days the difficulty will increase 10%...
http://mining.btcfans.com/
this is the website I used, it is Chinese...but you can check it out by you self...

[SOSLOVE868]

I still have 61 contracts , if you really think this is a good deal, why don't you buying it ??I am offering a low price now....

I already have bought a large chunk of your panic sold bonds. I have an investment profile that doesn't lend itself to further exposure right now, though.

.b

Thanks ...this really kind...I hope you will happy with your investment...Time will tell.....

[furuknap]

So the only things here is I did math yesterday, I did calculation from a website...is chinese , but you can translator . for 3M HASH per 0.1 BTC take 4655 days to recovery all initial principle...based on each 12 days the difficulty will increase 10%...
http://mining.btcfans.com/
this is the website I used, it is Chinese...but you can check it out by you self...

You are wrong on so many counts that it would take far too much time to set you straight. Like I've said before, you do your math and if you're confident in that, you act on it.

Here's a hint, though... Nobody is buying PAJKA for its 3mhs.

Now please heed by advice and take some time away to study the very dangerous and costly game you are playing. I won't be entertaining your nonsense FUD anymore. You've been proven wrong in virtually every statement you've made. There's no need for anyone to listen to you.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

So the only things here is I did math yesterday, I did calculation from a website...is chinese , but you can translator . for 3M HASH per 0.1 BTC take 4655 days to recovery all initial principle...based on each 12 days the difficulty will increase 10%...
http://mining.btcfans.com/
this is the website I used, it is Chinese...but you can check it out by you self...

You are wrong on so many counts that it would take far too much time to set you straight. Like I've said before, you do your math and if you're confident in that, you act on it.

Here's a hint, though... Nobody is buying PAJKA for its 3mhs.

Now please heed by advice and take some time away to study the very dangerous and costly game you are playing. I won't be entertaining your nonsense FUD anymore. You've been proven wrong in virtually every statement you've made. There's no need for anyone to listen to you.

.b

It is ok..you can holding PAJKA,as I said I trust my perception.even my perception is wrong,then the math do not lie..ten years for recovery my initial investment ,just too long time..I can't wait for ten years!may be you can.

[SOSLOVE868]

TAT, you found a big fan in me


you just got 700BTC from the shareholders of the VIRTUALMINE. given, diffuculty won't raise, you have thereby enough money to pay them 180 days. what a pitty, that afterwards, you will have to throw in money each day (4btc each day, am i right?)

but hey ... what if difficulty might skyrocket and break through the magic petahash frontline? that might mean, that you will have to pay them 0.36 each day (alltogether, not each), or even less.

we are going to converge the daily income for 1MHs asymtotically to satoshis. You will pay them hundreds of years and still have >> 100 BTC profit.

That's such a good idea, that makes me jealous not having it on my own first 

If you have left over some coins after buying more AM shares, go to your holidays--they're well-deserved


_{EDIT: I see, todays total divident payout was around 3.25, making it work for 233 days, if it stayed constant.}
 

I am out at 0.0072499, made some profit....still nice investment right now...but for long time...we should see panic selling of those assets...so far the only thing can be bought for is AM....nothing else...

Another man noticed the trap behind those PMB......I hope I am over worry about the rinsing of difficulty....

[jjdub7]

You can do all the math you want, but without a fundamental understanding of the economic principles behind a bond, you're just playing with pretty numbers.  An increase in difficulty in the PMB market is analogous to a shift in the yield curve of treasuries.  Back in the day, treasuries often paid much higher yields (at times around 5-7%), but as the economy became more developed and risk abated, these yields were adjusted downward across the maturity spectrum to compensate.  So yes, your coupon payments will decrease but this isn't because the asset is performing poorly, but rather because its gotten harder for everyone to mine.  The 15-day average 'face value' of the bond is guaranteed by the issuer, so it has intrinsic value there to begin with.  The bond is still worth its value.  I've already explained why TAT's investment is more risky and why this could and should result in a price differential, so I don't know why we still have a problem here...

[jjdub7]

And regardless, even if the difficulty is sky-high, the bond still pays a better interest rate than keeping BTC in cold storage...

[jjdub7]

And one more thing...the 'buyback at 200x dividend' clause in TAT's contract is EXTREMELY dangerous for investors looking to pick up PMB's.  That right there is exactly why I'm not buying into it...when difficulty rises high enough, TAT will be perfectly allowed to re-purchase the bonds at a fraction of the principal, leaving investors with massive losses.

EDIT: If you consider that 3 Mh/s of TAT's bonds would cost 0.021 BTC...once the upgrade for PAJKA is implemented and the hashing power rises to 15 Mh/s, this would cost 0.105 BTC for the equivalent hashing power in TAT bonds.  And keep in mind that the PAJKA upgrade isn't dependent on the issuer receiving BFL hardware - he just uses this as a benchmark event to initiate the upgrade. This was wrong, sorry.  The issuer's upgrade is dependent on receiving BFL hardware.

[SOSLOVE868]

And regardless, even if the difficulty is sky-high, the bond still pays a better interest rate than keeping BTC in cold storage...

I have the opportunity to investing my fund into AM....it is much better performance than a bond.
I just sold out all Pajka contracts...
A good news for you here....is if PAJKA want to attracting new investors...it need to drop its price below 0.021...because TAT.V just been approved on BTCT.... if anything right or wrong ,we will see in the future... Again if you are the lender here, you know you hold a essay which interest will decrease and decrease ,what will you do I think the answer is clear, you will hold it .since it cost you less in the future..am I right?
if BTC price continue increase this mean the demand for mining will increase= difficulty increase..Since TAT.V there ,better bond  there..for those poor PAJKA bond's contracts holder, what they can do? receiving less and less, never get their BTC back in full.....

[SOSLOVE868]

And one more thing...the 'buyback at 200x dividend' clause in TAT's contract is EXTREMELY dangerous for investors looking to pick up PMB's.  That right there is exactly why I'm not buying into it...when difficulty rises high enough, TAT will be perfectly allowed to re-purchase the bonds at a fraction of the principal, leaving investors with massive losses.

EDIT: If you consider that 3 Mh/s of TAT's bonds would cost 0.021 BTC...once the upgrade for PAJKA is implemented and the hashing power rises to 15 Mh/s, this would cost 0.105 BTC for the equivalent hashing power in TAT bonds.  And keep in mind that the PAJKA upgrade isn't dependent on the issuer receiving BFL hardware - he just uses this as a benchmark event to initiate the upgrade.

You really hope BFL will delivery??? when the BFL really delivered ,Some one may start selling machine at 500/GH at 2000 USD...
Also before I made selling out I was ask the issuer of PAJKA bond, ask him to upgrade our hashrate in order to link up with AM, before BFL really shipped...I think he reject me , it can be no doubt even this small request has been refused..You really think this guy will order another ASIC device and upgrade your hashrate??
remember, whether BFL delivery or not, how can you know? ?not like ASICMINER you can check the hashrate online...
People are selfish, especially if the cost to collusion or cheating others is insignificant.

[Kyune]

And keep in mind that the PAJKA upgrade isn't dependent on the issuer receiving BFL hardware - he just uses this as a benchmark event to initiate the upgrade.

I don't quite follow this statement.  From the OP:

The bonds will be upgraded for free to 15Mhash/s per bond when ordered ASICs are delivered to us.

What is the distinction you are trying to draw?

[jjdub7]

Looks like I've got my foot in my mouth.  I had this confused with JAH on BitFunder, which (God forbid I put my foot in my mouth again) is not dependent on the issuer's receiving the units.

My main point was to address the 200x coupon buyback clause - thanks for correcting me on this, I should've double-checked my facts before posting, sorry!

[SOSLOVE868]

And keep in mind that the PAJKA upgrade isn't dependent on the issuer receiving BFL hardware - he just uses this as a benchmark event to initiate the upgrade.

I don't quite follow this statement.  From the OP:

The bonds will be upgraded for free to 15Mhash/s per bond when ordered ASICs are delivered to us.

What is the distinction you are trying to draw?

if BFL delivery his order...he will upgrade to this hashrate...but whether BFL delivery or not ? how could we know??

[SOSLOVE868]

Looks like I've got my foot in my mouth.  I had this confused with JAH on BitFunder, which (God forbid I put my foot in my mouth again) is not dependent on the issuer's receiving the units.

My main point was to address the 200x coupon buyback clause - thanks for correcting me on this, I should've double-checked my facts before posting, sorry!

No worry....I bought a lot of TAT.V and sold all it above the price I bought.....I do not suggest anyone holding those PMB for long-time...it only can be sold out without loss when they are the best deal in the market......TAT is play a game here....which I have posted in above thread....
Long-term: once more people able to build ASICs....the price of ASIC will drop and difficulty will rise...util it reach its nash-equilibrium.
                not like other staff, during the competition of those ASIC's manufactures, that the price of ASIC will drop and in the same time the efficiency will increase...
If any PMB does't specific when will they buying back the bond...it just not reason for me to hold it...I hope you can understand my point and assumption here...

[jjdub7]

Since there's no discussion of a game theory problem here, I have no idea what you mean by the asset prices reaching their Nash equilibrium unless you're referring to the panic-selling bond-substitution game I was talking about earlier.  The market can clear at a regular equilibrium, if that's what you mean...

EDIT: And your conjectures again assume a rational market (which is fine because that assumption is oftentimes all we ever have to work with)

[SOSLOVE868]

Looks like I've got my foot in my mouth.  I had this confused with JAH on BitFunder, which (God forbid I put my foot in my mouth again) is not dependent on the issuer's receiving the units.

My main point was to address the 200x coupon buyback clause - thanks for correcting me on this, I should've double-checked my facts before posting, sorry!

Lets me explain it, since new ASIC are ahead to hitting the market...He do not actually know about exactly difficulty will increase, he just want to betting on it...All ASIC devices are planned to hitting the market after three months, roughly estimate to avalon chips ,KNC and BFL(if they dilivery)
after three months we will know who wins the betting...therefore, that this could be a safe line for him. if his estimation is wrong , he only lose those dividends, if he made right perception, then He can hold the assets for almost free in the future...

We can't regulate market for this type of asset, because its return is forecast-able.
We can't rely on some fools to buying it, when there are better substitution.

[SOSLOVE868]

Since there's no discussion of a game theory problem here, I have no idea what you mean by the asset prices reaching their Nash equilibrium unless you're referring to the panic-selling bond-substitution game I was talking about earlier.  The market can clear at a regular equilibrium, if that's what you mean...

EDIT: And your conjectures again assume a rational market (which is fine because that assumption is oftentimes all we ever have to work with)

I made a 5 BTC lose in PAJKA bond panic selling...you may think I am stupid to selling my assets at this low price...but All I want to convince here is PMB is not right assets right now...only if you can prove difficulty will maintain below increase 10% each 12 days....I think this only possible BTC price drop drop drop.....this what I do not want to see...I am bullish on BTC price....if BTC price decrease I do not care the dividend pay by this Bond...I made lose anyway....

[furuknap]

if BFL delivery his order...he will upgrade to this hashrate...but whether BFL delivery or not ? how could we know??

You've started making some pretty serious accusations against a large number of people. You're high on your horse whenever someone points out your blatant lies and utter ignorance, but you're quick to throw out vague accusations that the PAJKA issuer must be a fraud and thief because you fucked up in your research.

The order number is known for the PAJKA order. Verification is simple. So is seeing through your lies, FUD, and lack of knowledge.

.b

[furuknap]

therefore, that this could be a safe line for him. if his estimation is wrong , he only lose those dividends, if he made right perception, then He can hold the assets for almost free in the future...

You're an utter fool.

PAJKA has been operating for a year. Since then, the bond has paid out in dividends far more than the principle. How do you recon paying out more than 100% interest per year is a 'safe line'?

According to your logic of issuers of PMBs being scammers because they know the difficulty would go up enough to never have to repay their principal, the issuer must have known more than a year ago, before BFL even started accepting orders, that somewhere around now, ASICs would finally start shipping. They would at the same time be willing to pay more than what they got in return to, I don't know, spite you?

I guess it follows the same logic the rest of your reasoning does, the reasoning that leads you to believe that technology from the year 2022 is already here.

The same logic that leads you to believe that atoms can be split and still remain the same atoms.

It's the same logic that got you to completely and fundamentally misunderstand what you had bought, thinking that you could beg yourself to more money.

The same logic that brought you so much shame you resort to lying to try to save face.

If there is a scammer, liar, beggar, and idiot here, it is you.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

therefore, that this could be a safe line for him. if his estimation is wrong , he only lose those dividends, if he made right perception, then He can hold the assets for almost free in the future...

You're an utter fool.

PAJKA has been operating for a year. Since then, the bond has paid out in dividends far more than the principle. How do you recon paying out more than 100% interest per year is a 'safe line'?

According to your logic of issuers of PMBs being scammers because they know the difficulty would go up enough to never have to repay their principal, the issuer must have known more than a year ago, before BFL even started accepting orders, that somewhere around now, ASICs would finally start shipping. They would at the same time be willing to pay more than what they got in return to, I don't know, spite you?

I guess it follows the same logic the rest of your reasoning does, the reasoning that leads you to believe that technology from the year 2022 is already here.

The same logic that leads you to believe that atoms can be split and still remain the same atoms.

It's the same logic that got you to completely and fundamentally misunderstand what you had bought, thinking that you could beg yourself to more money.

The same logic that brought you so much shame you resort to lying to try to save face.

If there is a scammer, liar, beggar, and idiot here, it is you.

.b

I do not care about how much PAJKA had paid last year...I just care how much well they paid in the future ?why you fucking idiot always get personal attack here? are you out of you mind ? stupid old man...if you think the money you invest today will pays you back in 10 years later is a good investment ,then just do what you like...may be you can alive for more then 100 years ..time does not a problem to you , if you think I am wrong , calculating you estimation ,shows me you formula like what I did...STOP persona ATTACK...you fucking stupid old man!!!!!

[furuknap]

I am bullish on BTC price....if BTC price decrease I do not care the dividend pay by this Bond...I made lose anyway....

Then go away and stop crapping on everyone elses work. You've already demonstrated that you're a fool; your advice is about as reasonable as shooting yourself in the head.

Here's another hint for you; Compared to TAT.VM, a reasonable price on PAJKA, based on fundamentals, has actually _gone up_. In other words, not only did you not understand anything about the asset market, but you lack the skills to do basic multiplication.

Kid, get lost. You're a nuisance.

.b

[furuknap]

I do not care about how much PAJKA had paid last year...I just care how much well they paid in the future ?

You have made nothing but mistakes so far in everything you've said, including your calculations about your 10 year return, which is utter nonsense. That proves you are notoriously unreliable.

Your predictions about what the return on this asset (or as you claim, every asset in Bitcoin world, except ASICMiner) will be is somehow accurate?

why you fucking idiot always get personal attack here? are you out of you mind ? stupid old man...if you think the money you invest today will pays you back in 10 years later is a good investment ,then just do what you like...may be you can alive for more then 100 years ..time does not a problem to you , if you think I am wrong , calculating you estimation ,shows me you formula like what I did...STOP persona ATTACK...you fucking stupid old man!!!!!

I'll stop attacking your ignorance when you stop blatantly lying and repeating the same idiotic statements.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

therefore, that this could be a safe line for him. if his estimation is wrong , he only lose those dividends, if he made right perception, then He can hold the assets for almost free in the future...

You're an utter fool.

PAJKA has been operating for a year. Since then, the bond has paid out in dividends far more than the principle. How do you recon paying out more than 100% interest per year is a 'safe line'?

According to your logic of issuers of PMBs being scammers because they know the difficulty would go up enough to never have to repay their principal, the issuer must have known more than a year ago, before BFL even started accepting orders, that somewhere around now, ASICs would finally start shipping. They would at the same time be willing to pay more than what they got in return to, I don't know, spite you?

I guess it follows the same logic the rest of your reasoning does, the reasoning that leads you to believe that technology from the year 2022 is already here.

The same logic that leads you to believe that atoms can be split and still remain the same atoms.

It's the same logic that got you to completely and fundamentally misunderstand what you had bought, thinking that you could beg yourself to more money.

The same logic that brought you so much shame you resort to lying to try to save face.

If there is a scammer, liar, beggar, and idiot here, it is you.

.b

YOU CALL 10% increase of difficulty each 12 years is lie ???what you logical stand from?
You never use any date to convince me ,but continue says I miss understanding about how PMB working.
I do not care how PMB working...I only care about how much I can get in the future !!!if you can prove it ..shows me your calculation !!!

I studied master and degree in finance ..i know things better than you ...You only continued says I do not know about PMB...can you tell me 10 years for return is a good opportunity ? I know because you are old enough , YOU could alive over 1000 years ..10 years for you are meaning less, but not for me !!! YOU FUCKING IDIOT....You mother will shame on you .if you I am wrong.provides me your calculation !!!!! stop saying what PMB is again, the way you understanding about PMB not equal to potential return!!!!!

[furuknap]

YOU CALL 10% increase of difficulty each 12 years is lie ???what you logical stand from?

You are committing a basic fallacy in assuming the answer. Your lack of understanding is staggering.

Did you pay for that education or was it a pity scolarship?

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

I do not care about how much PAJKA had paid last year...I just care how much well they paid in the future ?

You have made nothing but mistakes so far in everything you've said, including your calculations about your 10 year return, which is utter nonsense. That proves you are notoriously unreliable.

Your predictions about what the return on this asset (or as you claim, every asset in Bitcoin world, except ASICMiner) will be is somehow accurate?

why you fucking idiot always get personal attack here? are you out of you mind ? stupid old man...if you think the money you invest today will pays you back in 10 years later is a good investment ,then just do what you like...may be you can alive for more then 100 years ..time does not a problem to you , if you think I am wrong , calculating you estimation ,shows me you formula like what I did...STOP persona ATTACK...you fucking stupid old man!!!!!

I'll stop attacking your ignorance when you stop blatantly lying and repeating the same idiotic statements.

.b

I did that Calculation for you in half year time you get 7% return..and this already overstate dividend for you!!!!
you are really stupid enough , did not you see that PAJKA already decrease its dividend look below.
2013-06-07 21:05   ฿ 0.46541752   4814   0.00009668   COMPLETE
2013-06-06 21:06   ฿ 0.5232818   4814   0.00010870   COMPLETE
2013-06-05 21:06   ฿ 0.59760996   4814   0.00012414   COMPLETE
Please stop ignoring the truth here !!!!

Provides me with you calculation, use date to convince me !!!stop saying about what PMB it is ...I do not care...

[SOSLOVE868]

YOU CALL 10% increase of difficulty each 12 years is lie ???what you logical stand from?

You are committing a basic fallacy in assuming the answer. Your lack of understanding is staggering.

Did you pay for that education or was it a pity scolarship?

.b

You call 10% increase of difficulty is a fallacy? How ridiculous you are !!!!I can't understand what you makes you think that difficulty will increase below 10% each 12 days???
I know you can alive 1000years ...ten years to return just a short period, sorry I am a only normal human...not a monster like you who can survive over 1000 years....

[furuknap]

Provides me with you calculation, use date to convince me !!!stop saying about what PMB it is ...I do not care...

You don't care what the answer is. That is your problem. You care only for what you've decided is reality. When someone points out that your perception of reality is utterly flawed, you throw a fit, just like any stubborn kid.

"I want icecream!"

"You can't have icecream"

"But I WANT icecream"

"Well, you can't have it"

"BUT I WANT WANT WANT WANT ICECREAM"

"You're not getting icecream"

"GIVE ME ICECREAM!"

"No"

"I WANT ICECREAM or I SCREAM!"

BTW, looks like the market has already passed judgement on your strategy, sending the bonds up around 20% from your low sell. Still convinced you're right, when every single statement you've made has been disproven and even the challenges you've made on those assumptions are shown wrong?

.b

[furuknap]

YOU CALL 10% increase of difficulty each 12 years is lie ???what you logical stand from?

You are committing a basic fallacy in assuming the answer. Your lack of understanding is staggering.

Did you pay for that education or was it a pity scolarship?

.b

You call 10% increase of difficulty is a fallacy? How ridiculous you are !!!!I can't understand what you makes you think that difficulty will increase below 10% each 12 days???
I know you can alive 1000years ...ten years to return just a short period, sorry I am a only normal human...not a monster like you who can survive over 1000 years....

Now you're committing a basic strawman fallacy. Twice.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

Provides me with you calculation, use date to convince me !!!stop saying about what PMB it is ...I do not care...

You don't care what the answer is. That is your problem. You care only for what you've decided is reality. When someone points out that your perception of reality is utterly flawed, you throw a fit, just like any stubborn kid.

"I want icecream!"

"You can't have icecream"

"But I WANT icecream"

"Well, you can't have it"

"BUT I WANT WANT WANT WANT ICECREAM"

"You're not getting icecream"

"GIVE ME ICECREAM!"

"No"

"I WANT ICECREAM or I SCREAM!"

BTW, looks like the market has already passed judgement on your strategy, sending the bonds up around 20% from your low sell. Still convinced you're right, when every single statement you've made has been disproven and even the challenges you've made on those assumptions are shown wrong?

.b

I fell sad for those fools to purchased an bonds half year return only at 7%.....may be less...You never ever do any math to convince me, but continued with you persona attack...I can see you education background may not got you enough talent to do a estimation on dividend... you call that market selling at 0.7299 a per 1 share a bounce ? don't forget I selling my shares made a 6.7 net loss.. this mean (50-6.7)/450=0.0962
I still selling my contracts far above current market price !!! wait if TAT goes issuing his TAT.V ,what happen to PAJKA ???FORCED TO adjust its price to 0.021..... or slightly more....this already happen in BITFUNDER...when TAT.V issued that RTM drop to 0.28...before was 0.41 ..and PAMB to 1.1 before was 1.3 and their price are still decreasing...I am use date to convince you,but you only use you stupid terms, continued says what I did not the truth...I know better than you ...I double my asset in last month ?what did you do ? so far I only made loss on PAJKA ....
Can you please go back study on game theory and dividend growth model...do not stay here and continues saying your point less argument..The truth here is you never ever provides any calculation and evidence to support your argument, only continues describe what PMB it is ? for investor like me, we do not care about PMB, what we care is the future dividend ... do you understand?? I know you are lack of knowledge to search for evidence to prove your argument . this why you only take advantages on my language ...but it still can not mean you are right...

PEOPLE SPEAK GOOD ENGLISH DOES NOT EQUAL TO HAVE GOOD KNOWLEDGE TO DO A INVESTMENT .

[furuknap]

PEOPLE SPEAK GOOD ENGLISH DOES NOT EQUAL TO HAVE GOOD KNOWLEDGE TO DO A INVESTMENT .

And thus begins the screaming...

"No, SOSLove, you can't have icecream."

As for calculations, you assume your answer. You need to look that up as well so you understand why your arguments make no sense.

Here's one for you. I'll assume that the return is 5000% so now you must prove to me that this isn't a good investment. This is the same fallay you're making, so until you prove me wrong, your argument is equally stupid.

To answer your question, PAJKA is getting 15mhs, which is 15x what TAT.VM has. If TAT.VM trades at 0.7, that means PAJKA should trade at 10.5. Get it now?

TAT.VM is trading better than some older PMBs because it is new and a lot of people want to flip it. PAJKA has always beeen a better investment than TAT; why do you think TAT conspicuously omitted that from his price comparison? It's not like it's easy to miss.

Oh, and before you go on about that "but can you prove that BFL delivers" I'll counter that with "well, can you prove that BFL does not?"

Your arguments is first that everyone is going to deliver, pushing difficulty up, but then BFL is not going to deliver when that delivery counts against your perception of reality. You use the same argument both ways, and you can't do that without looking like a fool.

Please understand that your train of arguments make no sense, are based on numerous fallacies that are easily refuted, and that is one reason why you're being attacked. You demonstrate your inability as an investor by becoming aggitated (look that up, it's not a real word but has real meaning) and emotional when you don't get what you want.

.b

EDIT: Misplaced decimal point. was "PAJKA should trade at 1.05" but correct is "PAJKA should trade at 10.5"

[SOSLOVE868]

PEOPLE SPEAK GOOD ENGLISH DOES NOT EQUAL TO HAVE GOOD KNOWLEDGE TO DO A INVESTMENT .

And thus begins the screaming...

"No, SOSLove, you can't have icecream."

As for calculations, you assume your answer. You need to look that up as well so you understand why your arguments make no sense.

Here's one for you. I'll assume that the return is 5000% so now you must prove to me that this isn't a good investment. This is the same fallay you're making, so until you prove me wrong, your argument is equally stupid.

To answer your question, PAJKA is getting 15mhs, which is 15x what TAT.VM has. If TAT.VM trades at 0.7, that means PAJKA should trade at 1.05. Get it now?

TAT.VM is trading better than some older PMBs because it is new and a lot of people want to flip it. PAJKA has always beeen a better investment than TAT; why do you think TAT conspicuously omitted that from his price comparison? It's not like it's easy to miss.

Oh, and before you go on about that "but can you prove that BFL delivers" I'll counter that with "well, can you prove that BFL does not?"

Your arguments is first that everyone is going to deliver, pushing difficulty up, but then BFL is not going to deliver when that delivery counts against your perception of reality. You use the same argument both ways, and you can't do that without looking like a fool.

Please understand that your train of arguments make no sense, are based on numerous fallacies that are easily refuted, and that is one reason why you're being attacked. You demonstrate your inability as an investor by becoming aggitated (look that up, it's not a real word but has real meaning) and emotional when you don't get what you want.

.b

if BFL has delivery to this guy...OK it been luck you get upgrade... this will made 0.1 BTC for 15M HASH....  it means 0.001BTC=pay for 0.15/M HASH ok? if you times 7 you get 0.007 for 1.05M HASH, it only makes litter better than TAT.V today!!! and you are waiting for hopeless shipment from BFL...is this true??? 

you still happy about it ?

 

[SOSLOVE868]

PEOPLE SPEAK GOOD ENGLISH DOES NOT EQUAL TO HAVE GOOD KNOWLEDGE TO DO A INVESTMENT .

And thus begins the screaming...

"No, SOSLove, you can't have icecream."

As for calculations, you assume your answer. You need to look that up as well so you understand why your arguments make no sense.

Here's one for you. I'll assume that the return is 5000% so now you must prove to me that this isn't a good investment. This is the same fallay you're making, so until you prove me wrong, your argument is equally stupid.

To answer your question, PAJKA is getting 15mhs, which is 15x what TAT.VM has. If TAT.VM trades at 0.7, that means PAJKA should trade at 1.05. Get it now?

TAT.VM is trading better than some older PMBs because it is new and a lot of people want to flip it. PAJKA has always beeen a better investment than TAT; why do you think TAT conspicuously omitted that from his price comparison? It's not like it's easy to miss.

Oh, and before you go on about that "but can you prove that BFL delivers" I'll counter that with "well, can you prove that BFL does not?"

Your arguments is first that everyone is going to deliver, pushing difficulty up, but then BFL is not going to deliver when that delivery counts against your perception of reality. You use the same argument both ways, and you can't do that without looking like a fool.

Please understand that your train of arguments make no sense, are based on numerous fallacies that are easily refuted, and that is one reason why you're being attacked. You demonstrate your inability as an investor by becoming aggitated (look that up, it's not a real word but has real meaning) and emotional when you don't get what you want.

.b

if BFL has delivery to this guy...OK it been luck you get upgrade... this will made 0.1 BTC for 15M HASH....  it means 0.001BTC=pay for 0.15/M HASH ok? if you times 7 you get 0.007 for 1.05M HASH, it only makes litter better than TAT.V today!!! and you are waiting for hopeless shipment from BFL...is this true??? 

you still happy about it ?

 

Again you ignore the factor that PAJKA's contract is more expensive than TAT.V ,ignorance of that price factor...I understand why you are so stupid 
and you math is really hopeless ...I feel why you should be really shame about you math knowledge.... 15X than TAT.V has !!!it already mean how stupid you are !!!!!

[furuknap]

if BFL has delivery to this guy...OK it been luck you get upgrade... this will made 0.1 BTC for 15M HASH....  it means 0.001BTC=pay for 0.15/M HASH ok? if you times 7 you get 0.007 for 1.05M HASH, it only makes litter better than TAT.V today!!! and you are waiting for hopeless shipment from BFL...is this true??? 

you still happy about it ?

Well, if the comparable value in PAJKA is 1.05 and you sold at 0.6 because you thought the world was going to end, that proves your math is really off.

Here's an example of similar nonsense. Let's put some numbers into a BTC calculator and see what comes up:



As you can see, ROI is just north of 50%, not 7% like you claim with a repayment of the principal in 218 days. Now prove to me that 50% ROI is not a great investment.

This is the same math that you're doing, but like I've explained to you, it is meaningless unless you know how to apply that math, something you obviously don't.

You've demonstrated how you do your math, in which you beat NASDAQ composite but are left unsatisfied. I have no idea where you studied your finance, but like I eluded, please ask for a refund of any tuition you paid because you've clearly been cheated. Beating NASDAQ consistently over 10 years is an investors dream come true, and that's your worst case scenario.

Still, your assumptions are wrong, your application of the results are wrong, and your understanding of what you're doing is non-existant.

.b

[furuknap]

Again you ignore the factor that PAJKA's contract is more expensive than TAT.V ,ignorance of that price factor...I understand why you are so stupid 
and you math is really hopeless ...I feel why you should be really shame about you math knowledge.... 15X than TAT.V has !!!it already mean how stupid you are !!!!!

Here's another childlike behavior:

"Go to your room for being a bad boy"

"NEHEE, you go to your room!"

"Look, you're being a bit silly about this"

"Nehee, you're being silly"

I haven't shown you any math and you claim that math you haven't seen is wrong. I told you that PAJKA has 15x more hashrate than TAT.VM and since both bonds are completely equal in future prospects, if TAT.VM trades at X then PAJKA should trade at 15X. Accidentally I misplaced the decimal point, though, but the point remains.

You sold at 60% of fair market value and now you're desperate to defend your actions. Even though you have no interest in PAJKA anymore, you still keep crapping all over this thread. Even though you've been proven wrong in every single statement you've made, you keep repeating the same claims rather than actually responding to the counter-arguments. Now you've resorted to parroting claims against you, further cementing your behavior as a small child.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

Again you ignore the factor that PAJKA's contract is more expensive than TAT.V ,ignorance of that price factor...I understand why you are so stupid  
and you math is really hopeless ...I feel why you should be really shame about you math knowledge.... 15X than TAT.V has !!!it already mean how stupid you are !!!!!

Here's another childlike behavior:

"Go to your room for being a bad boy"

"NEHEE, you go to your room!"

"Look, you're being a bit silly about this"

"Nehee, you're being silly"

I haven't shown you any math and you claim that math you haven't seen is wrong. I told you that PAJKA has 15x more hashrate than TAT.VM and since both bonds are completely equal in future prospects, if TAT.VM trades at X then PAJKA should trade at 15X. Accidentally I misplaced the decimal point, though, but the point remains.

You sold at 60% of fair market value and now you're desperate to defend your actions. Even though you have no interest in PAJKA anymore, you still keep crapping all over this thread. Even though you've been proven wrong in every single statement you've made, you keep repeating the same claims rather than actually responding to the counter-arguments. Now you've resorted to parroting claims against you, further cementing your behavior as a small child.

.b

Like I said before the calculator you used does not account that block will change each four years time and does not include difficulty adjustment..and not accurate..... I give you a website ....I just did my calculation , if BFL never delivery...3 X 4184(HASHRATE) will generate total=100 BTC and stop forever...if upgrade today (which is not possibly), you will get 3X4184X15=62760  (hashrate) 437.1 in total..even it upgrade today it still makes the issuer better than you.the website is below...no more reply no more argue , We should do something useful....

http://bitcoinstuff.appspot.com/?mhps=62760&wd_rate=0&difficulty_rate=1.100

And last thing, people always believe what they want to believe...it is point less to make you think I am wrong or right...As I said time will tells everything...One day you will remember some guys tells you that this is a trap but you did not listen to him and try to argue with him...Then you might understand how stupid you are , you may regret at that time..

Now , I understand why people say that most american can't do a good math...


I made a mistake here, if upgrade today... you will get most of you fund back by next year...  this what I do not believe with...
Difficulty 15605633PD ratio 0.7Hash rate 143.8 TH/sPH ratio 0.8MT gox $108.55
MINING FORECAST
Your hashrate  MH/s
Withdrawl rate /period
Difficulty rate /period
Predict exchange rate
 

 
SHORT TERM

Next difficulty 18423171 on Jun 16 (8.10 days)
Growth in difficulty 10.00% per period
Returns:
Daily    4.7 BTC
Jun 16   37.7 BTC [1]
LONG TERM

503.1 BTC at infinity [2]

Predicted returns:
Date   Saved   Withdrawn       Predicted exchange [3]
06/16/13    37.70 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
06/26/13    80.01 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
07/06/13    118.48 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
07/16/13    153.44 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
07/26/13    185.23 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
08/05/13    214.13 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
08/15/13    240.40 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
08/25/13    264.28 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
09/04/13    285.99 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
09/14/13    305.73 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
09/24/13    323.68 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
10/04/13    339.99 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
10/14/13    354.82 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
10/24/13    368.30 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
11/03/13    380.55 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
ASSUMPTIONS

4.7 BTC/day until the difficulty changes
The difficulty grows at a constant 10.0% per period, forever.
Price and hashrate (that is, in some respects, difficulty) are correlated and will remain so. Further, the price right now is true and correct.
Note that none of the above should be taken as advice and data may be up to 10 minutes delayed.
Please send a small donation to 1QTB9LEwzPiJaosqF7z1cE5eQggsXnAwH

it should be like above ...if you understand the difference between upgrade today and upgrade in future two moths late , this calculator is not perfect as which I used in Chinese...but it can provides you a simple understanding that you investment ,isn't look like what you think...and 110% increase is really conservative estimation , if you look back to the past trends.

[furuknap]

Like I said before the calculator you used does not account that block will change each four years time and does not include difficulty adjustment..

Yeah and like I said before, the numbers are as ridiculous as yours. You have no idea what the difficulty will be, nor how the block change will affect mining revenue. In fact, you're investing in AM that has the exact same issue and trust friedcat that the transaction fees must be above 15 BTC by next halving. Why do you discount that argument when it works in your disfavor?

Your arguments, again, make no sense. You use them solely to defend your stupidity and flip them on and off depending on whether it serves whatever reality you need to make up.

Now , I understand why people say that most american can't do a good math...

And we're down to attacking ethnicity.

I'm Norwegian, you idiot. Do your research before you start making attacks like that and feel free, at any time, to start actually responding to arguments rather than just repeating your own failed ones.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

if BFL has delivery to this guy...OK it been luck you get upgrade... this will made 0.1 BTC for 15M HASH....  it means 0.001BTC=pay for 0.15/M HASH ok? if you times 7 you get 0.007 for 1.05M HASH, it only makes litter better than TAT.V today!!! and you are waiting for hopeless shipment from BFL...is this true??? 

you still happy about it ?

Well, if the comparable value in PAJKA is 1.05 and you sold at 0.6 because you thought the world was going to end, that proves your math is really off.

Here's an example of similar nonsense. Let's put some numbers into a BTC calculator and see what comes up:



As you can see, ROI is just north of 50%, not 7% like you claim with a repayment of the principal in 218 days. Now prove to me that 50% ROI is not a great investment.

This is the same math that you're doing, but like I've explained to you, it is meaningless unless you know how to apply that math, something you obviously don't.

You've demonstrated how you do your math, in which you beat NASDAQ composite but are left unsatisfied. I have no idea where you studied your finance, but like I eluded, please ask for a refund of any tuition you paid because you've clearly been cheated. Beating NASDAQ consistently over 10 years is an investors dream come true, and that's your worst case scenario.

Still, your assumptions are wrong, your application of the results are wrong, and your understanding of what you're doing is non-existant.

.b

if I used 15% look...the issuer fuck you up mate...

MINING FORECAST
Your hashrate  MH/s
Withdrawl rate /period
Difficulty rate /period
Predict exchange rate
 

 
SHORT TERM

Next difficulty 18423171 on Jun 16 (8.10 days)
Growth in difficulty 15.00% per period
Returns:
Daily    4.7 BTC
Jun 16   37.7 BTC [1]
LONG TERM

348.0 BTC at infinity [2]

Predicted returns:
Date   Saved   Withdrawn       Predicted exchange [3]
06/16/13    37.70 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
06/26/13    78.17 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
07/06/13    113.36 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
07/16/13    143.97 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
07/26/13    170.58 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
08/05/13    193.71 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
08/15/13    213.84 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
08/25/13    231.33 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
09/04/13    246.55 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
09/14/13    259.78 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
09/24/13    271.28 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
10/04/13    281.28 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
10/14/13    289.98 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
10/24/13    297.55 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
11/03/13    304.12 BTC    0.00 BTC    0.00 USD    108.55 USD/BTC
ASSUMPTIONS

4.7 BTC/day until the difficulty changes
The difficulty grows at a constant 15.0% per period, forever.
Price and hashrate (that is, in some respects, difficulty) are correlated and will remain so. Further, the price right now is true and correct.
Note that none of the above should be taken as advice and data may be up to 10 minutes delayed.
Please send a small donation to 1QTB9LEwzPiJaosqF7z1cE5eQggsXnAwH

The total 481 BTC coin only can generate 371 at infinite time....you never ever will break even your poor investment ...

Can we stop argue about this point less things???
if you continues ignore that AVALON chips, avalon miner rigs, knc , btc garden, amc ,asicminer will all together push the difficulty to sky high....

I do not want to bother you as I said , but I made my decision is based on math evidence...I am confident difficulty will increase 15% each 12 days by refer to past trends....So the choice is mine...you can't convince me ,as long as I have sold out all my fund...I can get better use it in other place.

[furuknap]

if I used 15% look...the issuer fuck you up mate...

Yeah, and if I use negative 15% you fucked yourself up, mate.

Hang on... Now I remember...

You are the guy who accused a key insider in Avalon for being secretly in league with AM and fucking up Avalon deliveries, aren't you?

I think the founder of ASICMINER must have relationship with DR.ZHANG (who invented avalon).

another assumption that DR.Zhang may be is board director of ASICMINER, I think this is the only way to explaining that retail order of AVALON are all delayed, in the meanwhile ASICEMINER has double its HASH POWER....  as long as I do not know anyone else had ability to produce ASIC chips....
assume the cheap cost and ability to produce large amount of ASIC chips in China,  which that other country can not competing with .

You're really a piece of work...

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

Like I said before the calculator you used does not account that block will change each four years time and does not include difficulty adjustment..

Yeah and like I said before, the numbers are as ridiculous as yours. You have no idea what the difficulty will be, nor how the block change will affect mining revenue. In fact, you're investing in AM that has the exact same issue and trust friedcat that the transaction fees must be above 15 BTC by next halving. Why do you discount that argument when it works in your disfavor?

Your arguments, again, make no sense. You use them solely to defend your stupidity and flip them on and off depending on whether it serves whatever reality you need to make up.

Now , I understand why people say that most american can't do a good math...

And we're down to attacking ethnicity.

I'm Norwegian, you idiot. Do your research before you start making attacks like that and feel free, at any time, to start actually responding to arguments rather than just repeating your own failed ones.

.b

Who are idiot ,time will tell...math never lie , but people does...I think you may be the issuer who wants to spread its BFL risk to those poor contracts holders...All my assumption is logically refer to past difficulty trend.. As I said , you will be fuck up ,but not by me...you will fuck up by this poor calculator you used to predicting you future investment..this calculator is as ridiculous as its advertisement. what a sarcasm? A calculator with BFL advertisement used by PAJKA contracts holder... You are the most stupid idiot like prey inside the cobweb waiting to be fuck up..the sadness thing is you still not understand about it...and argue with someone who tells you the truth behind it...


I am done whit it...you are too stubborn and hopeless...this may be you are too old to make a right judgement, You PAJKA bond will pays you back you all investment when you are in the heaven....sorry, I forget ..you are monster or vampire who can alive for more than thousand year...I know time for you are meaning less.... I am done stupid old guy, go home and fuck with you old wife..she needs you more than I do .Do not spend more time on me, go home stay with you old wife...you two can alive together for thousand years and wait for your PAJKA bond pays you back...

Is it clear enough ? old man? BTC is too young for you, compare with you age it only in your grandson's age.
 

[SOSLOVE868]

if I used 15% look...the issuer fuck you up mate...

Yeah, and if I use negative 15% you fucked yourself up, mate.

Hang on... Now I remember...

You are the guy who accused a key insider in Avalon for being secretly in league with AM and fucking up Avalon deliveries, aren't you?

I think the founder of ASICMINER must have relationship with DR.ZHANG (who invented avalon).

another assumption that DR.Zhang may be is board director of ASICMINER, I think this is the only way to explaining that retail order of AVALON are all delayed, in the meanwhile ASICEMINER has double its HASH POWER....  as long as I do not know anyone else had ability to produce ASIC chips....
assume the cheap cost and ability to produce large amount of ASIC chips in China,  which that other country can not competing with .

You're really a piece of work...

.b

Never mind , I was said this might be collusion between it...but you guys are too simple too naive....You take this irrelevant topic as a defence to your poor math I mean it really a good things for you to spend that much time on me....I feel myself is so important to you...

[furuknap]

Never mind , I was said this might be collusion between it...but you guys are too simple too naive....You take this irrelevant topic as a defence to your poor math I mean it really a good things for you to spend that much time on me....I feel myself is so important to you...

I use your previous statements to further strengthen the argument that virtually everything you have said is bullshit.

You are not important more than my next fart, but you crap all over this thread with lies, baseless accusations against the issuer (and every issuer of any asset, for that matter), wild speculations about exponential growth in computing power, insane theories about nuclear fission in Bitcoin mining...

You are so far away from any sense of reality that if anyone coming here believed one word of your statements (which you've now admitted are wrong) they might make the wrong decisions, just like you have done.

I made a mistake here, if upgrade today... you will get most of you fund back by next year...  this what I do not believe with...

You don't even believe your own math anymore. Previously, it was 4500 days, then it was 10 years, now it's a year and even that isn't correct. Do you see how your calculations don't make any sense? You don't know how to apply the numbers.

That's why you must be answered; to have people coming here see that what you are saying is insane at the very best.

You can stop at any time but as long as you keep barfing up your crap, I'll have to respond to keep others from listening to you.

The choice is yours; I cannot dictate your behavior but I can help others be damaged by it.

Oh, and look, your statement that the market will surely force PAJKA down to 0.021 seems to be, what, utter bullshit like the rest of your promises? In fact, from you bottomed out at 0.6, the price has risen 50%. How's that for 'the market will surely teach me a lesson'?

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

Never mind , I was said this might be collusion between it...but you guys are too simple too naive....You take this irrelevant topic as a defence to your poor math I mean it really a good things for you to spend that much time on me....I feel myself is so important to you...

I use your previous statements to further strengthen the argument that virtually everything you have said is bullshit.

You are not important more than my next fart, but you crap all over this thread with lies, baseless accusations against the issuer (and every issuer of any asset, for that matter), wild speculations about exponential growth in computing power, insane theories about nuclear fission in Bitcoin mining...

You are so far away from any sense of reality that if anyone coming here believed one word of your statements (which you've now admitted are wrong) they might make the wrong decisions, just like you have done.

I made a mistake here, if upgrade today... you will get most of you fund back by next year...  this what I do not believe with...

You don't even believe your own math anymore. Previously, it was 4500 days, then it was 10 years, now it's a year and even that isn't correct. Do you see how your calculations don't make any sense? You don't know how to apply the numbers.

That's why you must be answered; to have people coming here see that what you are saying is insane at the very best.

You can stop at any time but as long as you keep barfing up your crap, I'll have to respond to keep others from listening to you.

The choice is yours; I cannot dictate your behavior but I can help others be damaged by it.

Oh, and look, your statement that the market will surely force PAJKA down to 0.021 seems to be, what, utter bullshit like the rest of your promises? In fact, from you bottomed out at 0.6, the price has risen 50%. How's that for 'the market will surely teach me a lesson'?

.b

Are you mad ?I said is if not upgrade it will takes 4500days to recovery!!!!!! if upgrade today and according today's difficulty it will recovery in next year...but stop...BFL will delivery ? if really BFL delivery to the issuer, and the issuer does not let you know..how could you notice that ?

I have attach the website for you to do the calculation, despite it is not perfect as what I use in Chinese version..but much better than what you have used.
I do not made judgement about anything , math did. you ignoring all those factors that will push up the difficulty, it makes you look more mad..anyway , It's your money and your choice...the problem here is I selling what I like...it is you start to talk with me ..your incentive to protect the owners look like you and him have some collusion.....why no body criticize about what decision I have made ..this is free market, you start try to convince me to holding PAJKA BOND and latter on ,You determine what you did is not working. then you start criticize about my date and my math... and during the time non of other people has joint to our argument.Even the issuer is silent !!!!

This just ridiculous? first you pretending as a professional investor who try to teach out newbies do not worry about PAJKA bond...is this really are your business to doing that? unbelievable, I feel so sick of you ....I do not needs you to teach me how to invest and what is PMB, take off your dirty mask, shows the ugly face behind the dirty mask...


  

[SOSLOVE868]

Never mind , I was said this might be collusion between it...but you guys are too simple too naive....You take this irrelevant topic as a defence to your poor math I mean it really a good things for you to spend that much time on me....I feel myself is so important to you...

I use your previous statements to further strengthen the argument that virtually everything you have said is bullshit.

You are not important more than my next fart, but you crap all over this thread with lies, baseless accusations against the issuer (and every issuer of any asset, for that matter), wild speculations about exponential growth in computing power, insane theories about nuclear fission in Bitcoin mining...

You are so far away from any sense of reality that if anyone coming here believed one word of your statements (which you've now admitted are wrong) they might make the wrong decisions, just like you have done.

I made a mistake here, if upgrade today... you will get most of you fund back by next year...  this what I do not believe with...

You don't even believe your own math anymore. Previously, it was 4500 days, then it was 10 years, now it's a year and even that isn't correct. Do you see how your calculations don't make any sense? You don't know how to apply the numbers.

That's why you must be answered; to have people coming here see that what you are saying is insane at the very best.

You can stop at any time but as long as you keep barfing up your crap, I'll have to respond to keep others from listening to you.

The choice is yours; I cannot dictate your behavior but I can help others be damaged by it.

Oh, and look, your statement that the market will surely force PAJKA down to 0.021 seems to be, what, utter bullshit like the rest of your promises? In fact, from you bottomed out at 0.6, the price has risen 50%. How's that for 'the market will surely teach me a lesson'?

.b

Half years later , we will see who made right prediction about this BOND...it is point less to continuing this topic by nonsense argument ..time will tells everything... OK?? after half years ,if I made wrong decision, I will pay 5 BTC to you !!otherwise you owns me a apologize, you start with your stupid personal attack in this conversation...and I am out with it .

Are you brave enough to do bet with me ?
otherwise ,please shut up.... 

[furuknap]

Are you mad ?I said is if not upgrade it will takes 4500days to recovery!!!!!!

Wrong, as shown before.

if upgrade today and according today's difficulty it will recovery in next year...but stop...BFL will delivery ? if really BFL delivery to the issuer, and the issuer does not let you know..how could you notice that ?

Answered before.

I have attach the website for you to do the calculation, despite it is not perfect as what I use in Chinese version..but much better than what you have used.

You still have no idea what I've used. I have said this before.

I do not made judgement about anything , math did.

Your assumptions are wrong as is your application.

And to answer your question about my math, here's one for you:
2+2=4

See? My math is perfect. Like you, I have no idea how to apply that to anything, but hey, it doesn't stop you from pulling numbers out of your ass.

I have said this before.

you ignoring all those factors that will push up the difficulty

You still have no idea what factors I take into account. I have said this before.

your incentive to protect the owners look like you and him have some collusion.....

You need to back up such conspiracy accusations with some fact. I have said this before.

why no body criticize about what decision I have made

Uhm... You don't get it, do you? Nobody is criticizing your decision. It is your decision to make. I have said this before.

..this is free market, you start try to convince me to holding PAJKA BOND and latter on ,You determine what you did is not working. then you start criticize about my date and my math... and during the time non of other people has joint to our argument.Even the issuer is silent !!!!

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You're trying to convince everyone that the issuer is dishonest, that there is a conspiracy between the issuer and myself, that every asset except from ASICMiner is a scam, that Intel has 0.5nm(!) chips ready to do Bitcoin mining and everyone else has 5nm chips, that a key insider in Avalon is conspiring with ASICMiner to keep share price high, that you first had 450 bonds, then you had 500 bonds, then that you sold the majority above 0.1... This list goes on and on...

I have said this before.

This just ridiculous? first you pretending as a professional investor who try to teach out newbies do not worry about PAJKA bond...is this really are your business to doing that?

No, it is my business to do consulting in SharePoint. However, despite my exposure to PAJKA being minimal, I feel a responsibility for pointing out bullshit trolls like you so that others don't make the same mistakes you do and lose 15-20% of their investments in two weeks.

I have said this before.

unbelievable, I feel so sick of you ....I do not you teach me how to invest and what is PMB, take off your dirty mask, shows the ugly face behind the dirty mask...

So, then it comes down to it, you can't respond to any arguments, just repeat the same argument over and over as if they then become more true. When that fails you resort to racist remarks about my ethnicity, age, and physical appearance.

Do you see how this doesn't really translate to anything sensible?

.b

[furuknap]

Half years later , we will see who made right prediction about this BOND...it is point less to continuing this topic by nonsense argument ..time will tells everything... OK?? after half years ,if I made wrong decision, I will pay 5 BTC to you !!otherwise you owns me a apologize, you start with your stupid personal attack in this conversation...and I am out with it .

Are you brave enough to do bet with me ?
otherwise ,please shut up.... 

This has nothing to do with bravery. I do not trust you for a second, but even if I did, there is no clear definition of what is 'wrong' so the bet is unresolvable.

Tell you what, why don't we bet that the shares I bought from you can be resold at a profit within those 6 months? That will prove that you made the 'wrong' decision, where 'wrong' is defined as you selling at too low a price.

.b

[logicbomb666]

@ furuknap  -  Please stop posting clear and accurate arguments.  It's obvious this child will never shut up, so please stop so he will stop and I will stop getting new post updates for this thread. 

[SOSLOVE868]

Half years later , we will see who made right prediction about this BOND...it is point less to continuing this topic by nonsense argument ..time will tells everything... OK?? after half years ,if I made wrong decision, I will pay 5 BTC to you !!otherwise you owns me a apologize, you start with your stupid personal attack in this conversation...and I am out with it .

Are you brave enough to do bet with me ?
otherwise ,please shut up.... 

This has nothing to do with bravery. I do not trust you for a second, but even if I did, there is no clear definition of what is 'wrong' so the bet is unresolvable.

Tell you what, why don't we bet that the shares I bought from you can be resold at a profit within those 6 months? That will prove that you made the 'wrong' decision, where 'wrong' is defined as you selling at too low a price.

.b

OK..It should be regarding to the 15 days market average price... during the future 6 months if 15 days market average price per contract is above 0.094 and there are certain trading volume to support that price.(around 1 BTC been trading for each days) and it must shows not remaining asks below this price ,and certain bid price close to it. In case to ensure you are not manipulate the price.  can you do that ? if you can lets bet with me.
Then I will pay you 5 BTC straightaway  , otherwise you need gives me a apologize .

[furuknap]

@ furuknap  -  Please stop posting clear and accurate arguments.  It's obvious this child will never shut up, so please stop so he will stop and I will stop getting new post updates for this thread. 

 

[SOSLOVE868]

@ furuknap  -  Please stop posting clear and accurate arguments.  It's obvious this child will never shut up, so please stop so he will stop and I will stop getting new post updates for this thread. 

seems you did not understand what will happen either....Alright...look at PAMB 7days trends and RTM 7days trading trends on BITFUNDER...
I will stop posting... feel sorry to you guys loss in the future...

Good bye....

[furuknap]

Tell you what, why don't we bet that the shares I bought from you can be resold at a profit within those 6 months? That will prove that you made the 'wrong' decision, where 'wrong' is defined as you selling at too low a price.

OK..It should be regarding to the 15 days market average price... during the future 6 months if 15 days market average price per contract is above 0.094 and there are certain trading volume to support that price.(around 1 BTC been trading for each days) and it must shows not remaining asks below this price ,and certain bid price close to it. In case to ensure you are not manipulate the price.  can you do that ? if you can lets bet with me.
Then I will pay you 5 BTC straightaway  , otherwise you need gives me a apologize .

No, you can't read either obviously. Let me restate:

The shares I bought from you can be resold at a profit within those 6 months.

.b

[furuknap]

@ furuknap  -  Please stop posting clear and accurate arguments.  It's obvious this child will never shut up, so please stop so he will stop and I will stop getting new post updates for this thread. 

seems you did not understand what will happen either....Alright...look at PAMB 7days trends and RTM 7days trading trends on BITFUNDER...
I will stop posting... feel sorry to you guys loss in the future...

Good bye....

It seems like more and more people 'did not understand what will happen either'.

Or you're simply wrong.

Again.

I'm happy to hear you come to your senses about stopping your trolling, though. There may be hope for you yet, unless, of course, you come back with more ridiculousness.

In fact, let's ignore the bet too because I would be able to win that bet within minutes of you accepting my terms, considering the bids are already above what I paid. I wanted to teach you a lesson but if you now stop trolling, I'll reveal that 'ploy' and let you off the hook.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

Tell you what, why don't we bet that the shares I bought from you can be resold at a profit within those 6 months? That will prove that you made the 'wrong' decision, where 'wrong' is defined as you selling at too low a price.

OK..It should be regarding to the 15 days market average price... during the future 6 months if 15 days market average price per contract is above 0.094 and there are certain trading volume to support that price.(around 1 BTC been trading for each days) and it must shows not remaining asks below this price ,and certain bid price close to it. In case to ensure you are not manipulate the price.  can you do that ? if you can lets bet with me.
Then I will pay you 5 BTC straightaway  , otherwise you need gives me a apologize .

No, you can't read either obviously. Let me restate:

The shares I bought from you can be resold at a profit within those 6 months.

.b

I sold my contracts at average of 0.094 ,how many did you buy over me?
Other thing here , I could use this btc backed from you to make more return on investment whether TAT.V we all know it been approved by BTCT or G.AM with capital gain in short run or constant dividend..If you could not sell my contracts what you have ? needless dividend decline with time.


Really pointless to continuing this discussion, can we just stop here? ?as this free market ,every one makes their own judgement about what future's look like...before the time really coming, you and me no one will commit he is wrong...

[carnitastaco]

are any holders of Pajka interested in writing put options or lending shares? if so please pm me to discuss prices/terms...

I'm interested in durations >1 month

[joele]

Best time to buy while the value still low.

[jjdub7]

*Sigh*...let's try this again. 

PMB's would be worthless if they had more variation associated with the payout, yes.  However, because the payouts are completely pre-determined, they are valuable as an alternative to short-term wallet storage, as they accrue interest.  In this sense, they operate like a running savings account or a CD (certificate of deposit - and yes, you can operate them exactly like a CD by buying/selling options).

The yield on the bonds, much like the yield of a savings account, is driven by market forces - in this case, difficulty.  Just like in the real world, interest rates are driven very close to zero as an economy becomes fully developed.

Yes, a certain amount of risk arises from liquidity constraints, but overall, the holder determines the ask price at the end of the day.  In this sense, the bonds you hold should never lose value, only liquidity, and this is only if there are viable, low-risk alternatives in the stock market to these bonds. 

The only way you should ever lose money on the sale of a PMB is if you're foolish enough to withdraw them all at once at bid price.  That's your loss.  The price will naturally crash if there is a 'run on the bank' in the corresponding PMB market.

I'll say it again - these bonds function in the same exact way that a savings account/CD does.  You lock in your funds, trading liquidity for interest.

If anyone is still going on about PMB's after this, they just don't understand what the terms bond, savings account, or liquidity mean.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

CDs pay you positive interest. PMBs pay you negative interest the majority of the time. That's the problem here.

If any PMBs with sufficient volume (includes PAJKA.BOND) outperforms CoinLenders which offers actual CDs (that gives you a POSITIVE return, not a negative one like PMBs), I'll bet you 100 BTC 1:1.

The only way you should ever lose money on the sale of a PMB is if you're foolish enough to withdraw them all at once at bid price.

The difficulty is increasing by 30% per two weeks recently. Let's half that, 15%/wk growth. A 3MH/s PMB will only ever pay you out ~0.01 BTC.

Saying that the difficulty will go down is like saying that the difficulty will be back in thousands when GPU mining started. We will be measuring difficulties in billions once ASICs really hit, and trillions when next gen ASICs hit.

[jjdub7]

Tell you what, why don't we bet that the shares I bought from you can be resold at a profit within those 6 months? That will prove that you made the 'wrong' decision, where 'wrong' is defined as you selling at too low a price.

OK..It should be regarding to the 15 days market average price... during the future 6 months if 15 days market average price per contract is above 0.094 and there are certain trading volume to support that price.(around 1 BTC been trading for each days) and it must shows not remaining asks below this price ,and certain bid price close to it. In case to ensure you are not manipulate the price.  can you do that ? if you can lets bet with me.
Then I will pay you 5 BTC straightaway  , otherwise you need gives me a apologize .

No, you can't read either obviously. Let me restate:

The shares I bought from you can be resold at a profit within those 6 months.

.b

I sold my contracts at average of 0.094 ,how many did you buy over me?
Other thing here , I could use this btc backed from you to make more return on investment whether TAT.V we all know it been approved by BTCT or G.AM with capital gain in short run or constant dividend..If you could not sell my contracts what you have ? needless dividend decline with time.


Really pointless to continuing this discussion, can we just stop here? ?as this free market ,every one makes their own judgement about what future's look like...before the time really coming, you and me no one will commit he is wrong...

You dumped all your bonds on the market at once, a move usually reserved for those who are desperate for liquidity, and you almost definitely took a loss on that sale.  That's your fault.  If you would've held the ask line, you could've slowly divested at a smaller loss or even at a profit, but you chose to dump your assets on the market all at once, giving a lot of investors a nice, cheap buy-in on an asset that's already almost recovered to its normal price.

You go on and on about numbers, but you forget the most important variable in trading - time.  Sure, TAT's bonds pay a higher yield, I'll give you that.  But there's no way you recovered what you lost in your panic-selloff by buying TAT's bonds at 0.007 and selling at 0.00725.  If you would've slowly divested, you might've been able to pull a better return.

[jjdub7]

CDs pay you positive interest. PMBs pay you negative interest the majority of the time. That's the problem here.

If any PMBs with sufficient volume (includes PAJKA.BOND) outperforms CoinLenders which offers actual CDs (that gives you a POSITIVE return, not a negative one like PMBs), I'll bet you 100 BTC 1:1.

The only way you should ever lose money on the sale of a PMB is if you're foolish enough to withdraw them all at once at bid price.

The difficulty is increasing by 30% per two weeks recently. Let's half that, 15%/wk growth. A 3MH/s PMB will only ever pay you out ~0.01 BTC.

Saying that the difficulty will go down is like saying that the difficulty will be back in thousands when GPU mining started. We will be measuring difficulties in billions once ASICs really hit, and trillions when next gen ASICs hit.

TF, again, the issue isn't that the bonds lose value - they're not "worth" anything themselves.  But consider situations like we have right now with US treasuries with interest rates near zero...as the interest rate approaches zero, treasuries and cash essentially become the same thing conceptually.  For people with "loose" BTC in their wallets and no liquidity constraints, the PMB is the better option because its still earning interest (no matter how small the interest is).

EDIT: And I should've mentioned it again, but PMB's are a terrible long-term investment, yes.  My argument is based on short-term storage, not long-term gains.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

jjdub, as one of the vocal pumpers of PMBs which are causing people to lose money (while you probably try to sell your own PMBs), I'd like to offer you a wager.

I send 100 BTC to John. You send 100 BTC to John. If PAJKA.BOND (dividends - capital loss) outperforms CoinLenders (1.06123x) over 90 days, you get 198 BTC. If not, I get 198 BTC.

If you are not willing to put your money where your mouth is, kindly stop misleading people with misleading investment advice.

For people with "loose" BTC in their wallets and no liquidity constraints, the PMB is the better option because its still earning interest (no matter how small the interest is).

No it is not, you are losing money. If I pay you 1% of interest a week, but my bonds go down in value by 1.5% a week, that's called losing money.

[jjdub7]

Sorry, edited too late, my bad...

EDIT: And I should've mentioned it again, but PMB's are a terrible long-term investment, yes.  My argument is based on short-term storage, not long-term gains.

Don't get me wrong, investors should know what they're dealing with with PMB's.  However, because they're listed on the same exchanges as other assets, you don't have to pay mining fees upon transfer to get into an interest-paying situation.  I'm still not selling my PMB's either, because they're in my portfolio to balance out risk from other assets I hold.  I'm not trying to pump them by any means, just making sure people know what they are and what the risks associated with them are (I only hold 3 PMB's, all PAJKA, and I do have BTC spread out in other places as well).

[jjdub7]

TF,

The entire argument here wasn't whether they were the best investment out there, it was whether they're worth anything at all.  Any asset that pays dividends/coupons and has resale liquidity has value, and that's what I've been saying on here.

And I haven't exactly been spamming this info everywhere...my only posts regarding PMB's have been in this thread, TAT's VM thread, and one more on the glossary thread I started.  I can see how pro-PMB posts annoy you, as PMB's are a direct (albeit not the best) substitute for your service, but its not like I've been pumping PMB's by bad-mouthing any alternative service.

[jjdub7]

Just throwing it out there...if I were trying to pump PMB's why would I bother including the drawbacks of buying such an asset?  I've also never argued that difficulty will fall...for reasons that I fond pretty obvious at this point.  Don't put words in my mouth.

And TradeFortress, your bet is akin to saying "I bet you 100 BTC that the sky will be blue tomorrow."  Yes, obviously your CD offers a better rate of return, I think that goes without saying.  Some of us just like to stick with well-established bonds because we're trading for the experience, not for serious gain.  

In any case, caveat emptor, people.  Do your research and make sure you know what you're buying, what the liquidity of such an asset is, and plan ahead to make sure you're not robbing yourself when the time comes to cash out.

[SOSLOVE868]

Just throwing it out there...if I were trying to pump PMB's why would I bother including the drawbacks of buying such an asset?  I've also never argued that difficulty will fall...for reasons that I fond pretty obvious at this point.  Don't put words in my mouth.

And TradeFortress, your bet is akin to saying "I bet you 100 BTC that the sky will be blue tomorrow."  Yes, obviously your CD offers a better rate of return, I think that goes without saying.  Some of us just like to stick with well-established bonds because we're trading for the experience, not for serious gain.  

In any case, caveat emptor, people.  Do your research and make sure you know what you're buying, what the liquidity of such an asset is, and plan ahead to make sure you're not robbing yourself when the time comes to cash out.

once,TAT.V start trading on the market...you will not able to sell those PAJKA bond contracts...

[joele]

PaJKa also invested in AM, TAT.V will live short term, and most or some of those investors will invest again to PAJKA, I believe I will see a rebound in couple of days or weeks, thus I'm holding my shares, selling today is like giving up to a game that you never know the result yet. While holding I'm earning daily dividend.

[jjdub7]

I thought about it overnight and here's my last point.  Yes, I think everyone in this thread has obviously made valid points concerning the PMB's. 

Consider one more thing though.  With BTC/fiat prices falling over the past week, it is possible given this circumstance that many current mining operations will become infeasible and will shut down.  The network hashing power has already dropped from 132 TH/s to around 117 Th/s just since last night - more than a 10% decrease from yesterday's total.  While your portfolio should obviously not be entirely comprised of PMB's (and it should be a diversified basket of PMB's at that), they're a decent hedge against falling prices.  And they don't have any fees to use the service. 

But yes, if you expect difficulty to rise or if you're looking for higher returns, then don't buy them/sell off slowly (seriously, don't take any big hits you don't need to).

[jjdub7]

Just throwing it out there...if I were trying to pump PMB's why would I bother including the drawbacks of buying such an asset?  I've also never argued that difficulty will fall...for reasons that I fond pretty obvious at this point.  Don't put words in my mouth.

And TradeFortress, your bet is akin to saying "I bet you 100 BTC that the sky will be blue tomorrow."  Yes, obviously your CD offers a better rate of return, I think that goes without saying.  Some of us just like to stick with well-established bonds because we're trading for the experience, not for serious gain.  

In any case, caveat emptor, people.  Do your research and make sure you know what you're buying, what the liquidity of such an asset is, and plan ahead to make sure you're not robbing yourself when the time comes to cash out.

once,TAT.V start trading on the market...you will not able to sell those PAJKA bond contracts...

Just be careful with the those TAT.VM contracts...with the current numbers, TAT could buy back the bonds at any time for anywhere from a 0.0005-0.001 loss per bond to the investor because of the 200x coupon buyback clause.  Again, I think the asset is more of a reputation-building tool for TAT (TAT's a good guy - when I first got into BTC, he took time to talk to me on the BitFunder IRC), so I doubt he would do that and stick it to investors that way, but I'm not in the game to take that risk right now.

However, if prices continue to fall, you'll probably want to re-think your entire investing strategy anyway because the entire game could change if the network hashing power falls down enough...

[elefter]

And TradeFortress, your bet is akin to saying "I bet you 100 BTC that the sky will be blue tomorrow."  Yes, obviously your CD offers a better rate of return, I think that goes without saying.  Some of us just like to stick with well-established bonds because we're trading for the experience, not for serious gain.  

It is a bit of a silly bet the only way for him to loose the bet is for himself to go Bankrupt ...but then again if that happens he wont be able to pay the bet anyway

[furuknap]

The difficulty is increasing by 30% per two weeks recently. Let's half that, 15%/wk growth. A 3MH/s PMB will only ever pay you out ~0.01 BTC.

The 'trick' here is that PAJKA isn't a 3mhs bond, it is a 15mhs bond. People buying now bets that BFL will deliver; simple as that.

Further, a sustained 30% per month is impossible for a few reasons.

1) Technology doesn't move that fast. Even if ASICs are way behind CPU chips for size, the Swedes are already working on 28nm ASICs. You can't go much below that currently, meaning distribution and commoditization must take over.
2) Increase in difficulty must long-term be funded by profitability; if/when difficulty increases beyond profitability, difficulty will not increase further.
3) Mining must compete with holding coins; this is possible only as long as Bitcoin/USD remains steady or falls.

Based on this, sure, we'll see a massive rise in difficulty, maybe we hit 1PH/s this year, maybe we'll have 10 PH/s next year. However, at that time or some point, buying ASICs won't make sense anymore because of 1, 2, and 3. New technology won't keep up, profitability will make it a loss to buy more hardware, and Bitcoins may have fallen further (in which case buying hardware won't beat buying coins, should the price come back up again).

It's very dangerous to extrapolate the future based on a short period of data, and by short here, I mean this year. For example, if we take the previous four days, the hashrate has dropped from 138 to 131 TH/s, meaning if we extrapolate that, mining will stop in roughly two months.

On the other hand, if we look at the rate from February to now, it's around 700% increase (over four months) indicating that we'll hit 6,5PH/s next February and 107,884 PH/s by next block halving, or around 300 million Jupiters (which is the most powerful scheduled miner today) or roughly 10 billion block erupter blades.

Even if someone comes up with 14nm ASICMiners this summer, and assuming those will be twice as powerful, we're still looking at every 1 in every 60 persons on the planet shelling out $7K for mining Bitcoins...

I'm sure KnCMiner wouldn't mind, but hey, I'm not sure it's very realistic.

PMBs lose value in massive difficulty rises, sure. So does mining equipment and it certainly doesn't seem like it's slowing down willingness to invest.

However, like I've mentioned before, PAJKA has been operating for over a year during which time it has paid out the principal plus significant profit in interest. I can't understand why anyone will claim that this must have been the plan from the issuer all along; it would be the worst theft in the history of mankind when the thief ends up with less money than before they committed their theft.

.b

[ryan1894]

Are there any plans to increase hashing power past 15MH/s per bond after BFL delivers (if they do)?

[furuknap]

Are there any plans to increase hashing power past 15MH/s per bond after BFL delivers (if they do)?

Please make sure you read and understand the contract as well as the asset type before you invest.

.b

[ryan1894]

Please make sure you read and understand the contract as well as the asset type before you invest.

.b

It just seems that historically, xkrikl has upgraded the bonds for free. I'm asking if this trend will continue.

[SOSLOVE868]

Please make sure you read and understand the contract as well as the asset type before you invest.

.b

It just seems that historically, xkrikl has upgraded the bonds for free. I'm asking if this trend will continue.

No,upgrade ,if BFL not delivery, Even that AM going to 100TH, before BFL shipment, that PAJKA still 3M bond...

Another assumption here, if you do not have personal contact with the issuer, you would no way to confirm whether issuer received the shipment or not...he could mining for him self for couple of months ,then release out the information that BFL has delivered his order...

[SOSLOVE868]

Please make sure you read and understand the contract as well as the asset type before you invest.

.b

It just seems that historically, xkrikl has upgraded the bonds for free. I'm asking if this trend will continue.

TAT.ASICMINER : Update from ASICMINER, 100TH on the Way, Hardware Sales Strong
Posted: 2013-06-08 00:27:16 - Written by TATInvestments
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Update from ASICMINER:

The wafer of the first half (100TH/s) of next batch of 200TH is coming from the fab.

More than 4,000 USB mining devices have been sold.

The demand for Block Erupter mining blades is surprisingly long-lasting and still high.

Written by: TATInvestments

[Tafelpoot]

SOSLOVE, can you stop posting in this topic please. You've sold your bonds, so stop the spam. We all can read ourselves about TAT and ASICminer, but it is irrelevant to this bond. Thanks.

[SOSLOVE868]

SOSLOVE, can you stop posting in this topic please. You've sold your bonds, so stop the spam. We all can read ourselves about TAT and ASICminer, but it is irrelevant to this bond. Thanks.

Sure...good luck....

[carpetbagger]

SOSLOVE, can you stop posting in this topic please. You've sold your bonds, so stop the spam. We all can read ourselves about TAT and ASICminer, but it is irrelevant to this bond. Thanks.

Sure...good luck....

Thank you.

[furuknap]

It just seems that historically, xkrikl has upgraded the bonds for free. I'm asking if this trend will continue.

Ah, I see...

I'm not sure about the history prior to BTCT listing, but keep in mind that this is essentially a loan and paying more for a loan rarely makes sense to the issuer. If the issuer needs to borrow more money, it makes more sense to just issue a new bond than to increase payments for the previous lenders.

I've written far more about this in the article in my sig (or http://coin.furuknap.net/understanding-mining-bonds/ if I've expired that sig now).

As to the future, I obviously have no idea what goes through the issuers' mind :-)

.b

[BTCThousandaire]

Anyone know the ETA on the ASIC upgrade or other details like when it was ordered?

[furuknap]

Anyone know the ETA on the ASIC upgrade or other details like when it was ordered?

BFL ships in two weeks. The rest you can find by reading this thread, which is the absolute least you should do before investing anything :-)

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

Anyone know the ETA on the ASIC upgrade or other details like when it was ordered?

BFL ships in two weeks. The rest you can find by reading this thread, which is the absolute least you should do before investing anything :-)

.b

Evidence to support that BFL will ships in two weeks???

[carpetbagger]

lol you really do need to lurk more, SOS.

[xkrikl]

How about if bfl is not deliver nor refund the BTC back to you ? what will you do then?

Great question, it doesn't look like BFL will deliver so I guess you would buy out the fund.

Well, I believe that BFL will deliver sooner or later.
In case BFL goes bankrupt ... I might consider buying the bonds back ... but the question is at what price ...
What price do you see fair? 0.1 BTC minus all paid dividends? No, that's too much ... but how much ... that's a question.
Some people bought into 0.3mhash/s bonds, some bought into 1.5mhash/s bonds all with the risk that they might never reach even 3mhash/s ...
When PAJKA.BOND was selling as 1.5mhash/s bond per 0.1BTC it was cheaper than other mining bonds and now after upgrade it gave already nice dividends.
Now the difficulty went a bit higher and new mining bonds/companies backed by ASIC showed up at lower prices.

If you buy now you take a risk that BFL will bankrupt but you know the price (it may be higher when BFL delivers) and get the dividends from 3mhash/s until they deliver.
The choice is yours.

I'm confused, your contract states exactly how much you would pay to buy the bonds back, and why does BFL have anything to do with your bond?  You offered a 1.5 MH bond (now 3 MH.)  your contract on BTCTC states that you can buy out the bonds at 110% of the average 15 day price.

are these wrong?

No, you are right .... that's the contract.
I was just trying to say that in the case that BFL goes bankrupt and the price of PAJKA.BOND drops as a consequence I might consider buying them back at a price higher than stated in the contract. It is just hard to say how much. Anyway as I stated I believe that we won't have to go into this as BFL will deliver.

[xkrikl]

I had seen that. However he got another proposal for some jalapenos, with order nr around 18k.
Those will ship most likely in about 2 weeks ... But if he ordered a minirig, it may take way longer...
BTW, I'm not worrying. The sell panic has got me some good deals.

I gave this information when someone asked about how many bonds I plan to sell.
It is order of Singles amounting 300ghash/s.
And the order number is #100021710

The proposal of jalapenos is still in the air ... but we are waiting until they ship and then we'll see if we can find a deal which would be interesting for both parties.

[xkrikl]

Are there any plans to increase hashing power past 15MH/s per bond after BFL delivers (if they do)?

No, no upgrade past 15mhash/s per bond is planned in the near future.
If there is good oportunity for powerful and economic mining equipment later, it could happen but don't count on it when buying into PAJKA.BOND.

[furuknap]

Now that SOSLover has promised to not crap anymore on this thread, I'm certain we can get back to more cool-headed debate. I'm sure we can trust him in that he won't be back now that he's realized the losses from his panic.

To anyone who may have read SOSLover's claims about PMBs like PAJKA being scams, I've written an article to elaborate more on the topic:

http://coin.furuknap.net/are-perpetual-mining-bonds-scams-not-really/

The conclusion is simple; No, PMBs are not scams. They fall in value during rapid difficulty rises, but so does any mining and I'm fairly certain you won't hear any rational mind claim that mining is a scam for that reason.

I'm also contemplating writing an article or maybe an app that will show the numbers on PMBs currently for sale. At the moment, with the exception of 100th, PAJKA upgraded is the best performing PMB on the market, beating TAT.VM by almost 30%. Because that upgrade is free, the question becomes whether the performance of currently higher-performing PMBs is enough to cover the difference until PAJKA upgrades.

In my opinion, BFL is now ever closer to full shipping. They have just started shipping the Singles and have, reportedly, shipped all Jalapenos ordered before August 22, 2012, which is likely a large portion of the pre-boom Jala orders (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/191-wednesday-june-12-shipping-update.html).

In short, I see PAJKA as one of the most promising PMBs right now.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

Now that SOSLover has promised to not crap anymore on this thread, I'm certain we can get back to more cool-headed debate. I'm sure we can trust him in that he won't be back now that he's realized the losses from his panic.

To anyone who may have read SOSLover's claims about PMBs like PAJKA being scams, I've written an article to elaborate more on the topic:

http://coin.furuknap.net/are-perpetual-mining-bonds-scams-not-really/

The conclusion is simple; No, PMBs are not scams. They fall in value during rapid difficulty rises, but so does any mining and I'm fairly certain you won't hear any rational mind claim that mining is a scam for that reason.

I'm also contemplating writing an article or maybe an app that will show the numbers on PMBs currently for sale. At the moment, with the exception of 100th, PAJKA upgraded is the best performing PMB on the market, beating TAT.VM by almost 30%. Because that upgrade is free, the question becomes whether the performance of currently higher-performing PMBs is enough to cover the difference until PAJKA upgrades.

In my opinion, BFL is now ever closer to full shipping. They have just started shipping the Singles and have, reportedly, shipped all Jalapenos ordered before August 22, 2012, which is likely a large portion of the pre-boom Jala orders (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/191-wednesday-june-12-shipping-update.html).

In short, I see PAJKA as one of the most promising PMBs right now.

.b

I am not claiming that PMS is a SCAM!!! I am claiming that all PMBs is not a wise investment !!!!

Furuknap..I feel you are like a salesman for PAJKA BOND...You only describe how good is PMB ,but never ever gives any evidence to support your argument. and further more, you are continues mentioned me, what you really want?

[SOSLOVE868]

Now that SOSLover has promised to not crap anymore on this thread, I'm certain we can get back to more cool-headed debate. I'm sure we can trust him in that he won't be back now that he's realized the losses from his panic.

To anyone who may have read SOSLover's claims about PMBs like PAJKA being scams, I've written an article to elaborate more on the topic:

http://coin.furuknap.net/are-perpetual-mining-bonds-scams-not-really/

The conclusion is simple; No, PMBs are not scams. They fall in value during rapid difficulty rises, but so does any mining and I'm fairly certain you won't hear any rational mind claim that mining is a scam for that reason.

I'm also contemplating writing an article or maybe an app that will show the numbers on PMBs currently for sale. At the moment, with the exception of 100th, PAJKA upgraded is the best performing PMB on the market, beating TAT.VM by almost 30%. Because that upgrade is free, the question becomes whether the performance of currently higher-performing PMBs is enough to cover the difference until PAJKA upgrades.

In my opinion, BFL is now ever closer to full shipping. They have just started shipping the Singles and have, reportedly, shipped all Jalapenos ordered before August 22, 2012, which is likely a large portion of the pre-boom Jala orders (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/191-wednesday-june-12-shipping-update.html).

In short, I see PAJKA as one of the most promising PMBs right now.

.b

I am not claiming that PMS is a SCAM!!! I am claiming that all PMBs is not a wise investment !!!!

Furuknap..I feel you are like a salesman for PAJKA BOND...You only describe how good is PMB ,but never ever gives any evidence to support your argument. and further more, you are continues mentioned me, what you really want?

I think anyone who wish to buying PAJKA bond contracts, they will calculate by their self...stop posting like a salesman~ it does not help make a bad investment become a good investment.. As all network difficulty has rise to 160T by today...and only a week another 20T increase ,even we all know BFL isn't really full ship their orders and other ASIC projects still under R&D.People know how to detecting the facts..

Please do not acting like a salesman ,this really makes me sick!!

[SOSLOVE868]

Now that SOSLover has promised to not crap anymore on this thread, I'm certain we can get back to more cool-headed debate. I'm sure we can trust him in that he won't be back now that he's realized the losses from his panic.

To anyone who may have read SOSLover's claims about PMBs like PAJKA being scams, I've written an article to elaborate more on the topic:

http://coin.furuknap.net/are-perpetual-mining-bonds-scams-not-really/

The conclusion is simple; No, PMBs are not scams. They fall in value during rapid difficulty rises, but so does any mining and I'm fairly certain you won't hear any rational mind claim that mining is a scam for that reason.

I'm also contemplating writing an article or maybe an app that will show the numbers on PMBs currently for sale. At the moment, with the exception of 100th, PAJKA upgraded is the best performing PMB on the market, beating TAT.VM by almost 30%. Because that upgrade is free, the question becomes whether the performance of currently higher-performing PMBs is enough to cover the difference until PAJKA upgrades.

In my opinion, BFL is now ever closer to full shipping. They have just started shipping the Singles and have, reportedly, shipped all Jalapenos ordered before August 22, 2012, which is likely a large portion of the pre-boom Jala orders (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/191-wednesday-june-12-shipping-update.html).

In short, I see PAJKA as one of the most promising PMBs right now.

.b

For your information, All my prediction has become true..the last 24 hours trading volume for PAJKA bond is only 0.6 BTC...I was told you before once TAT.V hit the market, this will cause less new investors for PAJKA BOND.

And another bad news for you , I sold out all my PAJKA contracts ,and buying AM... I have nearly recovery all loss from PAJKA BOND..
I bought AM at 2.35 when BTC price was drop last week...people panic selling their AM shares . and today's AM price is near 2.6 BTC.

You really should stop posting like a salesman.. I Do not think because you owns a cheap copy website ,then reflect that you are a professional investor. you are a ugly salesman who want to sale its defect products to innocent people...sorry not me !!!but I just sick of you ,this why I will continues posting here, as long as no innocent people will be hurt by your  false language.

[operador]

BFL seems to be shipping, crossing fingers, we may get the 15 MH upgrade after all..

[ryan1894]

\

I'm also contemplating writing an article or maybe an app that will show the numbers on PMBs currently for sale. At the moment, with the exception of 100th, PAJKA upgraded is the best performing PMB on the market, beating TAT.VM by almost 30%. Because that upgrade is free, the question becomes whether the performance of currently higher-performing PMBs is enough to cover the difference until PAJKA upgrades.

In my opinion, BFL is now ever closer to full shipping. They have just started shipping the Singles and have, reportedly, shipped all Jalapenos ordered before August 22, 2012, which is likely a large portion of the pre-boom Jala orders (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/191-wednesday-june-12-shipping-update.html).

In short, I see PAJKA as one of the most promising PMBs right now.

.b

Isn't ASIC.COOP the cheapest in terms of MH/s/BTC?

PAJKA.BOND is offering 170.45 MH/s/BTC (0.087999 per share and 15MH/s per share)
ASIC.COOP is offering 720 MH/s/BTC (0.5 per share and 360MH/s per share)

It's over 4 times more efficient.

They'll start hashing when they receive their BFL BitForce SC ships - i.e. the same boat as PAJKA.BOND in terms of dependence on BFL.

[jjdub7]

I mean really, I think this has been decided (and by decided, I mean I think we've hit an impasse).  Granted, the best thing to do would've been to sell off the PAJKA bonds right at the difficulty increase, wait for the price to cascade, and then buy back in (especially if you were confident that BFL would ship).  The price should theoretically go back up to its original value once the updated coupon payments start...

Honestly, for all anyone reading this thread knows, SOSLOVE, furuknap, and myself could have all been colluding to attack the PAJKA market and buy back in like I mentioned above.  Caveat emptor, kids.  But yeah, as its been emphasized all to many times on here, work the numbers for yourself based on your portfolio goals.  If we have different goals for our portfolios in the long-term, there's not really much of a point in arguing.  That being said, I'm gonna keep my hold recommendation on PAJKA, with a possible buy if you need something to hedge against difficulty with or you anticipate the upgrade to happen soon.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Now that SOSLover has promised to not crap anymore on this thread, I'm certain we can get back to more cool-headed debate. I'm sure we can trust him in that he won't be back now that he's realized the losses from his panic.

To anyone who may have read SOSLover's claims about PMBs like PAJKA being scams, I've written an article to elaborate more on the topic:

http://coin.furuknap.net/are-perpetual-mining-bonds-scams-not-really/

The conclusion is simple; No, PMBs are not scams. They fall in value during rapid difficulty rises, but so does any mining and I'm fairly certain you won't hear any rational mind claim that mining is a scam for that reason.

I'm also contemplating writing an article or maybe an app that will show the numbers on PMBs currently for sale. At the moment, with the exception of 100th, PAJKA upgraded is the best performing PMB on the market, beating TAT.VM by almost 30%. Because that upgrade is free, the question becomes whether the performance of currently higher-performing PMBs is enough to cover the difference until PAJKA upgrades.

In my opinion, BFL is now ever closer to full shipping. They have just started shipping the Singles and have, reportedly, shipped all Jalapenos ordered before August 22, 2012, which is likely a large portion of the pre-boom Jala orders (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/191-wednesday-june-12-shipping-update.html).

In short, I see PAJKA as one of the most promising PMBs right now.

.b

I am not claiming that PMS is a SCAM!!! I am claiming that all PMBs is not a wise investment !!!!

Furuknap..I feel you are like a salesman for PAJKA BOND...You only describe how good is PMB ,but never ever gives any evidence to support your argument. and further more, you are continues mentioned me, what you really want?

This.

[ThickAsThieves]

TAT.VM is trading better than some older PMBs because it is new and a lot of people want to flip it. PAJKA has always beeen a better investment than TAT; why do you think TAT conspicuously omitted that from his price comparison? It's not like it's easy to miss.

Just now finding these posts. Honestly, I had no idea PAJKA was a mining bond, and thus it was never included in my initial comparison chart.

Your accusation is a bit off-base considering that my chart did include comparisons to other mining assets with lower prices.

Also, your valuation of 15x is incorrect, if I am reading correctly that this bond is not actually hashing at 15mhs yet.


Soooooooo.... quit actin' like ya know.

[jjdub7]

Honestly, this should be settled by a single statement: never, ever take investment advice from people who openly admit to having a position in the securities being discussed.

[Ac3Upz]

PAJKA.BOND and DMS.MINING comparison:

PAJKA.BOND, current ask price 0.07794:
3 MH/s ~ 0.02598 per MH/s
15 MH/s ~ 0.00519 per MH/s

DMS.MINING, current ask price 0.01975:
5 MH/s ~ 0.00395 per MH/s

PAJKA.BOND for 0.06:
15 MH/s ~ 0.004 per MH/s => still more expensive than DMS.MINING.

[SOSLOVE868]

PAJKA.BOND and DMS.MINING comparison:

PAJKA.BOND, current ask price 0.07794:
3 MH/s ~ 0.02598 per MH/s
15 MH/s ~ 0.00519 per MH/s

DMS.MINING, current ask price 0.01975:
5 MH/s ~ 0.00395 per MH/s

PAJKA.BOND for 0.06:
15 MH/s ~ 0.004 per MH/s => still more expensive than DMS.MINING.

Useful news, go get some DMS.MINING NOW

[BTCThousandaire]

That is a very low price, it will probably go up when it is more established.
No need to sell now though, as soon as the equipment comes the prices will be about the same and prices should rise together.

[logicbomb666]

That is a very low price, it will probably go up when it is more established.
No need to sell now though, as soon as the equipment comes the prices will be about the same and prices should rise together.

This is my thought as well.  But to be honest, you can never count on reasonable things to happen in the world of bitcoin.  If the right group of kids users finds this bond and sees the word ASIC in the description, they might bid it up to 3BTC for no apparent reason.  Also, on the flip side of that, if the right group of kids bond owners flips out over difficulty rise, they might sell off their holdings to bring the value down to 0.000001BTC.

I would not be surprised if I see both of these scenarios happen within a an hour from each other.


Disclaimer - I currently own PAJKA bonds.

[SOSLOVE868]

That is a very low price, it will probably go up when it is more established.
No need to sell now though, as soon as the equipment comes the prices will be about the same and prices should rise together.

This is my thought as well.  But to be honest, you can never count on reasonable things to happen in the world of bitcoin.  If the right group of kids users finds this bond and sees the word ASIC in the description, they might bid it up to 3BTC for no apparent reason.  Also, on the flip side of that, if the right group of kids bond owners flips out over difficulty rise, they might sell off their holdings to bring the value down to 0.000001BTC.

I would not be surprised if I see both of these scenarios happen within a an hour from each other.


Disclaimer - I currently own PAJKA bonds.

Guys into 0.04 age, the droop is so quickly....Please buy more because this is the best ever time to buying PAJKA bond...You know I am mock on you.. where is the professional investor Frunmp ?? He said that PAJKA  price will be back to 0.94,I really want to ask u ,mate did you sold all those shares which get from me by making any profit????Shame on you, ignoring the truths and making nonsense statement which aimed to deceive other innocent investors !!!I should give a scamer tag on you!!! he makes nonsense statement and argue with my correct prediction, Finally I made right prediction to the market and avoid my loss ,and I should thanks to my finance teacher they gives me knowledge to make this prediction, but you ask me to return my tuition fee, what funny?

 Once again,people do not listen to anyone intend to be a professional investors in this forum, those guys are sucks and they are often doing this behave on their benefit!

Frunmp wake up , your preciousness PAJKA bond is on sale, only 0.4...GO and buy everything possible, this may be the only chance in your life to get your preciousness PAJKA bond at this discount, what hell you waiting for ? go sale your old wife, go sale your house , go sale everything you have , opportunity does not repeat again!!!mate ~~~~

[logicbomb666]

That is a very low price, it will probably go up when it is more established.
No need to sell now though, as soon as the equipment comes the prices will be about the same and prices should rise together.

This is my thought as well.  But to be honest, you can never count on reasonable things to happen in the world of bitcoin.  If the right group of kids users finds this bond and sees the word ASIC in the description, they might bid it up to 3BTC for no apparent reason.  Also, on the flip side of that, if the right group of kids bond owners flips out over difficulty rise, they might sell off their holdings to bring the value down to 0.000001BTC.

I would not be surprised if I see both of these scenarios happen within a an hour from each other.


Disclaimer - I currently own PAJKA bonds.

Guys into 0.04 age, the droop is so quickly....Please buy more because this is the best ever time to buying PAJKA bond...You know I am mock on you.. where is the professional investor Frunmp ?? He said that PAJKA  price will be back to 0.94,I really want to ask u ,mate did you sold all those shares which get from me by making any profit????Shame on you, ignoring the truths and making nonsense statement which aimed to deceive other innocent investors !!!I should give a scamer tag on you!!! he makes nonsense statement and argue with my correct prediction, Finally I made right prediction to the market and avoid my loss ,and I should thanks to my finance teacher they gives me knowledge to make this prediction, but you ask me to return my tuition fee, what funny?

 Once again,people do not listen to anyone intend to be a professional investors in this forum, those guys are sucks and they are often doing this behave on their benefit!

Frunmp wake up , your preciousness PAJKA bond is on sale, only 0.4...GO and buy everything possible, this may be the only chance in your life to get your preciousness PAJKA bond at this discount, what hell you waiting for ? go sale your old wife, go sale your house , go sale everything you have , opportunity does not repeat again!!!mate ~~~~

Nobody was talking to you, wtf are you even babbling on about?  ignored.

[SOSLOVE868]

That is a very low price, it will probably go up when it is more established.
No need to sell now though, as soon as the equipment comes the prices will be about the same and prices should rise together.

This is my thought as well.  But to be honest, you can never count on reasonable things to happen in the world of bitcoin.  If the right group of kids users finds this bond and sees the word ASIC in the description, they might bid it up to 3BTC for no apparent reason.  Also, on the flip side of that, if the right group of kids bond owners flips out over difficulty rise, they might sell off their holdings to bring the value down to 0.000001BTC.

I would not be surprised if I see both of these scenarios happen within a an hour from each other.


Disclaimer - I currently own PAJKA bonds.

Guys into 0.04 age, the droop is so quickly....Please buy more because this is the best ever time to buying PAJKA bond...You know I am mock on you.. where is the professional investor Frunmp ?? He said that PAJKA  price will be back to 0.94,I really want to ask u ,mate did you sold all those shares which get from me by making any profit????Shame on you, ignoring the truths and making nonsense statement which aimed to deceive other innocent investors !!!I should give a scamer tag on you!!! he makes nonsense statement and argue with my correct prediction, Finally I made right prediction to the market and avoid my loss ,and I should thanks to my finance teacher they gives me knowledge to make this prediction, but you ask me to return my tuition fee, what funny?

 Once again,people do not listen to anyone intend to be a professional investors in this forum, those guys are sucks and they are often doing this behave on their benefit!

Frunmp wake up , your preciousness PAJKA bond is on sale, only 0.4...GO and buy everything possible, this may be the only chance in your life to get your preciousness PAJKA bond at this discount, what hell you waiting for ? go sale your old wife, go sale your house , go sale everything you have , opportunity does not repeat again!!!mate ~~~~

Nobody was talking to you, wtf are you even babbling on about?  ignored.

I mock on you ,Did you fell shame that selling your defects products to innocent people?
And you are marking that AM share price is bubble , if AM is in bubble , then PAJKA must be a totally crashed bubble and soon become dust ,your money will become dust as well.... I can't understand why you guys are continuing talking bullshit for whatever reason, reality is there, AM is ok but PAJKA is dead.  If AM shareholders are kids, then we are young we will survive, You old people holding PAJKA ,then gone together with PAJKA.

[ryan1894]

0.04 with only a 18 BTC total buy wall

BFL better deliver...

[mobile]

Eff panic sells. Im holding...

[Gordon Bleu]

i really do hope BFL will deliver fast,
had alomost a Heart Attack this morning when cheking my Value Analysis

[joele]

Selling it will be a loss, I'll just keep my shares, and enjoy the daily dividend until the end.

[bitcoinplay]

All pmbs will lose money, fact.

[mobile]

Eff panic sells. Im holding...

I sold my shares for 0.06 with loss, but I would say that it was not panic sell, I just did the calculation. I should have listen to SOSLOVE868 before when the price was around 0.08.

Currently you can buy:
PAJKA.BOND for 0.055, at 3 MH/s, that is 0.018333 per MH/s (when BFL delivers: 15 MH/s, that is 0.003666 per MH/s)

DMS.MINING for 0.014, at 5 MH/s, that is 0.0028 per MH/s.

The fact that PAJKA.BOND is hashing currently with 3 MH/s (BFL is not delivering February orders yet, I think) is also important. I'm afraid that most PMBs at their current price are bad investment, unless the difficulty rise stops. If you are interested in more information, check the Deprived's thread.

...
One of the purposes behind launching DMS was to allow the market to define a price for PMBs.  I'm in no way surprised that value currently lies below what PMBs were previously selling for - and undoubtedly some speculators will have been burned by it (Investors less so - as they bought for the dividends and will continue to receive them.  If they bought too high then their loss will be a gradual one as it would have been anyway).

Speculators were not my intended target (I am, after all, one myself).  My target was people who bought an over-priced pre-order then thought to shift the risk/loss to investors AND get paid for doing so.  It most definitely WAS one of my goals to make it a lot harder for anyone to sell horribly over-priced PMBs in the future - a goal I know you agree with and one which I think DMS will go a long way towards achieving.  In part that goal is achieved simply by having DMS.MINING for sale cheaply - but it's also delivered on by forcing people to think a bit more about what PMBs are actually likely to pay out in various scenarios.
...

Appreciate your response & including Deprived's post. Definitely gives us another interesting perspective. Time will tell....

i really do hope BFL will deliver fast,
had alomost a Heart Attack this morning when cheking my Value Analysis

+1

[SOSLOVE868]

Eff panic sells. Im holding...

I sold my shares for 0.06 with loss, but I would say that it was not panic sell, I just did the calculation. I should have listen to SOSLOVE868 before when the price was around 0.08.

When I posted that do not buying any PMBs ,someone come to argue with me, and cursed about what I said.
Anyway ,this guy called Frunmp seems disappear now, I am still glad I sold all my contracts at 0.94 ,after I sold my contracts, I think no one sold above this price.  

[SOSLOVE868]

...
One of the purposes behind launching DMS was to allow the market to define a price for PMBs.  I'm in no way surprised that value currently lies below what PMBs were previously selling for - and undoubtedly some speculators will have been burned by it (Investors less so - as they bought for the dividends and will continue to receive them.  If they bought too high then their loss will be a gradual one as it would have been anyway).

Speculators were not my intended target (I am, after all, one myself).  My target was people who bought an over-priced pre-order then thought to shift the risk/loss to investors AND get paid for doing so.  It most definitely WAS one of my goals to make it a lot harder for anyone to sell horribly over-priced PMBs in the future - a goal I know you agree with and one which I think DMS will go a long way towards achieving.  In part that goal is achieved simply by having DMS.MINING for sale cheaply - but it's also delivered on by forcing people to think a bit more about what PMBs are actually likely to pay out in various scenarios.
...

Yes, This guy also destroyed those who bought those over price PMBs contracts before he issued his PMBs, and if he did not issue this asset , unless those poor contracts holders were have chance to sold its contracts to someone else at small loss.

[Rannasha]

...
One of the purposes behind launching DMS was to allow the market to define a price for PMBs.  I'm in no way surprised that value currently lies below what PMBs were previously selling for - and undoubtedly some speculators will have been burned by it (Investors less so - as they bought for the dividends and will continue to receive them.  If they bought too high then their loss will be a gradual one as it would have been anyway).

Speculators were not my intended target (I am, after all, one myself).  My target was people who bought an over-priced pre-order then thought to shift the risk/loss to investors AND get paid for doing so.  It most definitely WAS one of my goals to make it a lot harder for anyone to sell horribly over-priced PMBs in the future - a goal I know you agree with and one which I think DMS will go a long way towards achieving.  In part that goal is achieved simply by having DMS.MINING for sale cheaply - but it's also delivered on by forcing people to think a bit more about what PMBs are actually likely to pay out in various scenarios.
...

Yes, This guy also destroyed those who bought those over price PMBs contracts before he issued his PMBs, and if he did not issue this asset , unless those poor contracts holders were have chance to sold its contracts to someone else at small loss.

If Deprived hadn't issued DMS, holders of other PMBs may have sold their assets for more than they can now, but in the end the price would've still followed the inverse of the difficulty, which is down. Right now all that has happened is that PMBs dropped a bit more quickly in price, but the price would've gone down the same amount either way, because the dividend determines what the right price is.

[SOSLOVE868]

...
One of the purposes behind launching DMS was to allow the market to define a price for PMBs.  I'm in no way surprised that value currently lies below what PMBs were previously selling for - and undoubtedly some speculators will have been burned by it (Investors less so - as they bought for the dividends and will continue to receive them.  If they bought too high then their loss will be a gradual one as it would have been anyway).

Speculators were not my intended target (I am, after all, one myself).  My target was people who bought an over-priced pre-order then thought to shift the risk/loss to investors AND get paid for doing so.  It most definitely WAS one of my goals to make it a lot harder for anyone to sell horribly over-priced PMBs in the future - a goal I know you agree with and one which I think DMS will go a long way towards achieving.  In part that goal is achieved simply by having DMS.MINING for sale cheaply - but it's also delivered on by forcing people to think a bit more about what PMBs are actually likely to pay out in various scenarios.
...

Yes, This guy also destroyed those who bought those over price PMBs contracts before he issued his PMBs, and if he did not issue this asset , unless those poor contracts holders were have chance to sold its contracts to someone else at small loss.

If Deprived hadn't issued DMS, holders of other PMBs may have sold their assets for more than they can now, but in the end the price would've still followed the inverse of the difficulty, which is down. Right now all that has happened is that PMBs dropped a bit more quickly in price, but the price would've gone down the same amount either way, because the dividend determines what the right price is.

It is true, fell sad for those PMBs holders.

[furuknap]

He said that PAJKA  price will be back to 0.94

Uhm... Again, please provide me with a link. You make a claim, you should back it up. I'm exposing your lies as they come in, and gee, I think I'll be here all night...

I really want to ask u ,mate did you sold all those shares which get from me by making any profit?

I did. And doesn't that sting a bit?

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

He said that PAJKA  price will be back to 0.94

Uhm... Again, please provide me with a link. You make a claim, you should back it up. I'm exposing your lies as they come in, and gee, I think I'll be here all night...

I really want to ask u ,mate did you sold all those shares which get from me by making any profit?

I did. And doesn't that sting a bit?

.b

Liar , totally liar , look at the price trend it never ever exceeding my average selling price ,which is 0.094~

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Quote
Quote from: furuknap on June 22, 2013, 10:00:54 PM
Quote from: Mabsark on June 22, 2013, 09:43:35 PM
There's plenty of profit to made, even if difficulty did increase 10% each round. You just have to stop trying to make obscene amounts of profit for yourself. A Metabank BitFury provides 120 Gh/s for 2,160 USD. You'll be offering 100,000 shares at 0.004 BTC for a total of 400 BTC.

You are, of course, free to buy a miner yourself, host it, maintain it, replace it if it fails, leave aside buffers for unforeseen maintenance, and essentially commit yourself to always be online during difficulty changes for as long as the bond exist. You must also always leave a buffer large enough to pay for at a minimum one week of dividends, which will be around 30BTC. Your estimates are way low, but of course this is turning a profit for me. Do you think I would give it away at cost and work for free just to be a nice guy?

You'll need to find someone willing to sell, of course, who would be fine with accepting that paying for a pre-order with the risks involved (remember, I paid for this before the chips were done and anyone knew whether they would work at all) will not yield a reward. Investors could have accepted that risk when they had the chance, but they didn't.

Of course, you are comparing raw materials to finished product. You must feel cheated when you buy a car that is made of $1000 worth of aluminium and you have to pay 20x that much. After all, car manufacturers are trying to make an obscene amount of profit for themselves.

What you are arguing is that investing in a potential gold mine is a waste of time because the mine owner should just sell the mine once gold is discovered for the rate he himself paid. The risk the mine owner assumes by buying a license, not knowing whether there is gold or crap in the ground, should not have any upside, according to you.

But the final argument is really this: If I believe this mine will turn a profit at 0.004, why on earth would I sell it for less? I would give money to investors that I would otherwise mine for myself.

So, your opinion and objection is duly noted, in public, and I believe investors are capable of both reading and making informed decisions based on your arguments and mine.

.b

Quote from: furuknap on June 05, 2013, 04:40:07 PM
SOS, to be honest, I think perhaps you may want to relax a bit in your investments. It is clear that you don't accurately grasp all the factors and that you may need to work on your math a bit to avoid burning yourself on your investments and losing money.

This isn't relevant to PAJKA, though, so I suggest you look elsewhere for some general advice. Perhaps investing in a fund is a better option for you?

.b

This what you said to me When I sold my fund, after I explain what is my perception about PMBs and you are trying to argue with me , before that I though you just a guy who are stubborn, now I realize by trying to convincing other people PMBs is a good deal ,then start issue you own PMB to cheating people is your deep plan , this nice ,now I understand why you spend your time to argue with anyone who know the truth that PMB is bull shit to stop them become block of your cheating plan ~~very nice move , really

This liar is deleted what the truth I have posted in his thread~if he did anything right , what should he doing that?

[SOSLOVE868]

He said that PAJKA  price will be back to 0.94

Uhm... Again, please provide me with a link. You make a claim, you should back it up. I'm exposing your lies as they come in, and gee, I think I'll be here all night...

I really want to ask u ,mate did you sold all those shares which get from me by making any profit?

I did. And doesn't that sting a bit?

.b

Of course not, because you are lied , the price never exceeded what I sold ..

I sold at average of 0.094...I am not blind I can refer it back to the past trend.

[furuknap]

Liar , totally liar , look at the price trend it never ever exceeding my average selling price ,which is 0.094~

And at what price did I buy your panic sold shares, prey tell? And when did I sell them?

This what you said to me When I sold my fund, after I explain what is my perception about PMBs and you are trying to argue with me...

And what fund is that, SOS? What fund did you sell after you explained your perception about PMBs?

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

Liar , totally liar , look at the price trend it never ever exceeding my average selling price ,which is 0.094~

And at what price did I buy your panic sold shares, prey tell? And when did I sell them?

This what you said to me When I sold my fund, after I explain what is my perception about PMBs and you are trying to argue with me...

And what fund is that, SOS? What fund did you sell after you explained your perception about PMBs?

.b

I mean PAJKA bond, it is late night here, You think pick up some small mistake because my native language isn't English will turning it I am a cheater? ?of course , it won't work.

[furuknap]

Liar , totally liar , look at the price trend it never ever exceeding my average selling price ,which is 0.094~

And at what price did I buy your panic sold shares, prey tell? And when did I sell them?

This what you said to me When I sold my fund, after I explain what is my perception about PMBs and you are trying to argue with me...

And what fund is that, SOS? What fund did you sell after you explained your perception about PMBs?

.b

I mean PAJKA bond, it is late night here, You think pick up some small mistake because my native language isn't English will turning it I am a cheater? ?of course , it won't work.

You know what I think? I think you don't know the difference between a bond and a fund, and you thought that I adviced to you look at bonds, not funds.

Quote from: furuknap on June 05, 2013, 04:40:07 PM
SOS, to be honest, I think perhaps you may want to relax a bit in your investments. It is clear that you don't accurately grasp all the factors and that you may need to work on your math a bit to avoid burning yourself on your investments and losing money.

This isn't relevant to PAJKA, though, so I suggest you look elsewhere for some general advice. Perhaps investing in a fund is a better option for you?

.b

That, however, is your mistake, regardless of how tired you are, and does not make me a liar. It does make you a bad investor, though.

So, unless you have any evidence this time either, perhaps it's better if you just admit again that you posted libelous slander without any evidence, just like you did against a certain Avalon insider?

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

Liar , totally liar , look at the price trend it never ever exceeding my average selling price ,which is 0.094~

And at what price did I buy your panic sold shares, prey tell? And when did I sell them?

This what you said to me When I sold my fund, after I explain what is my perception about PMBs and you are trying to argue with me...

And what fund is that, SOS? What fund did you sell after you explained your perception about PMBs?

.b

I mean PAJKA bond, it is late night here, You think pick up some small mistake because my native language isn't English will turning it I am a cheater? ?of course , it won't work.

You know what I think? I think you don't know the difference between a bond and a fund, and you thought that I adviced to you look at bonds, not funds.

Quote from: furuknap on June 05, 2013, 04:40:07 PM
SOS, to be honest, I think perhaps you may want to relax a bit in your investments. It is clear that you don't accurately grasp all the factors and that you may need to work on your math a bit to avoid burning yourself on your investments and losing money.

This isn't relevant to PAJKA, though, so I suggest you look elsewhere for some general advice. Perhaps investing in a fund is a better option for you?

.b

That, however, is your mistake, regardless of how tired you are, and does not make me a liar. It does make you a bad investor, though.

So, unless you have any evidence this time either, perhaps it's better if you just admit again that you posted libelous slander without any evidence, just like you did against a certain Avalon insider?

.b

I have stated I am made assumption , not like you ...you are saying that you are correct which I did not..

The past price of PAJKA BOND is best to proving what you saying here is a lied, because You want people to buying your PMBs, this is your incentive that  you are trying best to defend for PMBs.

[furuknap]

I have stated I am made assumption , not like you ...you are saying that you are correct which I did not..

The past price of PAJKA BOND is best to proving what you saying here is a lied, because You want people to buying your PMBs, this is your incentive that  you are trying best to defend for PMBs.

Shit , did you understand what means by about? please go back and study with this basic English.

[SOSLOVE868]

I have stated I am made assumption , not like you ...you are saying that you are correct which I did not..

The past price of PAJKA BOND is best to proving what you saying here is a lied, because You want people to buying your PMBs, this is your incentive that  you are trying best to defend for PMBs.

Shit , did you understand what means by about? please go back and study with this basic English.

I will leaves this forum , because All people here already know about what between you and me..

and the price has proving it , those people who choose to believe you are being hurt already...

[Ashitank]

Pajka right now is way overpriced for 3mhs per share bond, I think a huge correction in bond price is pending once enough newbies buy this bond & raise price enough for bond holders waiting to minimize their loses & get out, you have been warned.

[furuknap]

Pajka right now is way overpriced for 3mhs per share bond, I think a huge correction in bond price is pending once enough newbies buy this bond & raise price enough for bond holders waiting to minimize their loses & get out, you have been warned.

That may be, but as it turns out, PAJKA isn't a 3mhs bond.

.b

[Ashitank]

Pajka right now is way overpriced for 3mhs per share bond, I think a huge correction in bond price is pending once enough newbies buy this bond & raise price enough for bond holders waiting to minimize their loses & get out, you have been warned.

That may be, but as it turns out, PAJKA isn't a 3mhs bond.

.b

So how many mhs/share is Pajka today ?   please share with us.

[SOSLOVE868]

Pajka right now is way overpriced for 3mhs per share bond, I think a huge correction in bond price is pending once enough newbies buy this bond & raise price enough for bond holders waiting to minimize their loses & get out, you have been warned.

That may be, but as it turns out, PAJKA isn't a 3mhs bond.

.b

So how many mhs/share is Pajka today ?   please share with us.

300THS/per shares from Furuknap's view...best investment in the world at huge discounted price...best chance to get in , chance only prepared for those brave man like Furuknap.....The famous Warrior of PMBs...The one and the only one who will defend for PMBs at his last drop of blood..

[furuknap]

Pajka right now is way overpriced for 3mhs per share bond, I think a huge correction in bond price is pending once enough newbies buy this bond & raise price enough for bond holders waiting to minimize their loses & get out, you have been warned.

That may be, but as it turns out, PAJKA isn't a 3mhs bond.

.b

So how many mhs/share is Pajka today ?   please share with us.

I'm sure you can read the contract just fine, but PAJKA is a pending 15mhs bond that pays 3mhs/share while we wait.

.b

[SOSLOVE868]

Pajka right now is way overpriced for 3mhs per share bond, I think a huge correction in bond price is pending once enough newbies buy this bond & raise price enough for bond holders waiting to minimize their loses & get out, you have been warned.

That may be, but as it turns out, PAJKA isn't a 3mhs bond.

.b

So how many mhs/share is Pajka today ?   please share with us.

I'm sure you can read the contract just fine, but PAJKA is a pending 15mhs bond that pays 3mhs/share while we wait.

.b

Hey ,it is 15 mhs ,who shouldn't you get more ? The only chance that you can get this world best investment at this discount price ...sales will be soon gone ,when they upgraded.....You are smart guy, want to makes profit ,PAJKA just perfect suit every aspect that you expected...I wait for you buying up more , don't just telling people how good it is ,but does not give any practice...if what you said is worth to believe ,then show me your action...

[Ashitank]

Pajka right now is way overpriced for 3mhs per share bond, I think a huge correction in bond price is pending once enough newbies buy this bond & raise price enough for bond holders waiting to minimize their loses & get out, you have been warned.

That may be, but as it turns out, PAJKA isn't a 3mhs bond.

.b

So how many mhs/share is Pajka today ?   please share with us.

I'm sure you can read the contract just fine, but PAJKA is a pending 15mhs bond that pays 3mhs/share while we wait.

.b

Sorry but that is really half hearted talk & very misleading   , you just know one side of story that MHS/share will be @ 15 when Pajkas bfl order arrives but other side of the story is when in time BFL delivery happens & difficulty level when Pajka gets bfl hardware,  no one has clue about.  Bond is over priced as it is now.

Just reading contract is not enough & understanding it & making sense of it is what matters.

[Tafelpoot]

SOS, please leave the PAJKA topic. You have no more business here, you said it yourself.
Close the door on your way out.

[logicbomb666]

SOS, please leave the PAJKA topic. You have no more business here, you said it yourself.
Close the door on your way out.

I placed him on ignore.  This thread has been very pleasant ever since. 

[furuknap]

Sorry but that is really half hearted talk & very misleading   , you just know one side of story that MHS/share will be @ 15 when Pajkas bfl order arrives but other side of the story is when in time BFL delivery happens & difficulty level when Pajka gets bfl hardware,  no one has clue about.  Bond is over priced as it is now.

Just reading contract is not enough & understanding it & making sense of it is what matters.

That is the nature of speculation. If the BFL units arrived tomorrow, the price would be low. If it arrives in 2016, it would be terribly high. You do not have all the information and different people have researched different information and makes decisions based on that.

If you want fixed returns where you know all the factors in advance, buy a fixed-rate bond somewhere in the traditional market.

.b

[xkrikl]

The difficulty change is expected to happen on Saturday and so should influence the dividend paid on Sunday for whole day of Saturday.
I'll be travelling over the weekend so I'll pay the dividend for the day of Saturday at the lower difficulty level (so this one can be approx. 5% higher than expected).
The dividend paid on Monday for whole day of Sunday will be done as usual.

[jjdub7]

xkrikl, any update on the status of your order?  Without any further information, this bond can't be rated as even a 'hold' when there are fixed-interest bonds popping up on the market for a fraction of the price.

[Turbonoodle]

xkrikl, any update on the status of your order?  Without any further information, this bond can't be rated as even a 'hold' when there are fixed-interest bonds popping up on the market for a fraction of the price.

His order number is #100021710 (source link)

Using http://bfl.ptz.ro/ chart as reference, we can assume he made his order on March 12 2013. And if that chart is up to date, BFL hasn't even shipped all of June 2012 (!) Singles orders. So dont get your hopes up any time soon...

[xkrikl]

xkrikl, any update on the status of your order?  Without any further information, this bond can't be rated as even a 'hold' when there are fixed-interest bonds popping up on the market for a fraction of the price.

No, I have no more information than I provided earlier.
My order number is 100021710 (early March) and I confirmed to BFL that I want the hardware even with higher power consumption.
No I am waiting for more information from them.
Informal information is that they are shipping Jalapeno September orders but SCs still only June SC orders.
When I'll have more information I'll let you know.

[a28hz]

I just felt what would it feel if bitcoin lose all its value in a second F5 and its gone.

[BTCThousandaire]

xkrikl if you can increase the apparent hashing power and dividends now and still have a profit from what you did with the money you received from sales of shares, would you consider increasing the dividends before the hardware arrives, since it will happen at some point anyway and you won't have total net loss by doing so?

[pembo210]

Hey guys,
Are we moving to Bitfunder (or similar option) or is Pajka closing down now that btc-tc is no longer going to be available?


edit:spelling

[brincobt]

@ xkrikl:
Please give a direction. Where will our shares be kept?
No information from you will make the shares drop!

[xkrikl]

Hi, the fees on Bitfunder are a bit high.
I'll have a list of PAJKA.BOND holders as Burnside tries to make sure that everybody will indicate public BTC address.
So I haven't made final decision but for now I plan on staying of the exchanges and manage it in a similar manner as Friedcat does.
To make it easier I would reduce the dividend frequency to once per difficulty change.
In the future I'd like to switch to colored coins if available.

[shmoula]

Hi, the fees on Bitfunder are a bit high.
I'll have a list of PAJKA.BOND holders as Burnside tries to make sure that everybody will indicate public BTC address.
So I haven't made final decision but for now I plan on staying of the exchanges and manage it in a similar manner as Friedcat does.
To make it easier I would reduce the dividend frequency to once per difficulty change.
In the future I'd like to switch to colored coins if available.

Thanks, colored coins sounds good! (AFAIK Friedcat has more options - direct shares (that's what you are talking about), shares on btct and shares on havelock investments.)

[Adamlm]

Today I have received this notification from btct:

Enter your public BTC address

Hello,

please, make sure you have entered your PUBLIC BTC address on BTCT.

Without that I won't be able to send you any more dividends.

Be aware that this is not the BTC address you used before for withdrawals.

You must set this new one. Please log in and verify.

Do I understand it right - should I change my public address on btct to a new one? Is it obligatory? It won't be much convenient for me, I'd rather keep my current public address there.

[xkrikl]

Today I have received this notification from btct:

Enter your public BTC address

Hello,

please, make sure you have entered your PUBLIC BTC address on BTCT.

Without that I won't be able to send you any more dividends.

Be aware that this is not the BTC address you used before for withdrawals.

You must set this new one. Please log in and verify.

Do I understand it right - should I change my public address on btct to a new one? Is it obligatory? It won't be much convenient for me, I'd rather keep my current public address there.

Sorry for not being clear enough.
No, you don't need to change your PUBLIC BTC address. You just need to have one. I was using the word "new" to refer to the fact that having set the withdrawal address is not enough and it is not used as public by default. Everybody needs to set one. So the best everybody can do is to log in to BTCTC and veryfy that you have your PUBLIC address set.

[xkrikl]

Hello,

I'm receiving questions about the voluntary buy back.

As it is still possible to change Public BTC address on BTC.TC
I will not send the BTC now and I'll wait until the list from BTC.TC is frozen and I'll use the last one I receive (it should be October 31st).
After that day I'll send the BTC for the shares to the people who have taken that buy back offer.
I also want to make clear that those who take the buy back offer will receive no more dividend.

It seems that the network hash rate increased so much that we'll have difficulty change before the addresses on BTC.TC are frozen thus I'll wait and send the dividend for current difficulty when the list from BTC.TC is frozen - so expect it to be late.

Pajka

[shmoula]

So you have not sent anything directly to wallet yet? I received some amount on my public address and I thought it was you. Can you add some description to transaction when you'll be sending?

[xkrikl]

So you have not sent anything directly to wallet yet? I received some amount on my public address and I thought it was you. Can you add some description to transaction when you'll be sending?

No, it wasn't me.
When I'll send it, I'll post it here with the transaction ID so everybody can identify it.

[xkrikl]

I have picked the miners up today.
So I hope to make it run during night.
From Nov 1st PAJKA.BOND will be 15mhash/s per bond.

The volountary buy back is still available you should express yourself before the first dividend after BTC.CO closes down.
I am waiting until BTC.CO closes and/or freezes the Public BTC addresses.
I will be out during weekend so I plan to send BTC to those requesting buy back on Monday.

[xkrikl]

Sorry, I'm having technical difficulties.
There will be short delay - day or two.
Please, be patient.

[xkrikl]

Bitcoins were sent to those who expressed interest in the buy back offer.
Unfortunatelly it was mostly larger shareholders ... so we'll have long dividend transactions anyway.

The transaction with the buy back BTC is: https://blockchain.info/tx/3234c3519882080fd6157649cd59163510947e3e5f358608b5e937d5de5a3cc3

For the rest I am preparing dividends. Please be patient.

[brincobt]

Just received it.
Thank you, xkrikl!
You are an honest man!

[xkrikl]

Dividend accumulated from last paid on BTCT.CO is:
230 hours at 3mhash/s and difficulty 267731249 (Oct 16-26) which is 0.00005400 per share
142 hours at 3mhash/s and difficulty 390928788 (Oct 26-31) which is 0.00002283 per share
116 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 390928788 (Nov 1-5) which is 0.00009327 per share
In total it is 0.00017010 per share.
Transaction ID: https://blockchain.info/tx/0b49caf2dd084d99a200302643af7b8acf934d504d083ad09ef47aae3583431c

[xkrikl]

New dividend paid:
283 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 510929738 (Nov 5-17) which is 0.00017410 per share
Transaction ID: https://blockchain.info/tx/fd4939b5425bc63ee017dbaaed2cec542e84d2f3c7018872f01da31dbec3feb2

[pembo210]

u rock! thankyou

[xkrikl]

New dividend paid:
291 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 609482680 (Nov 17-29) which is 0.00015007 per share
Transaction ID: https://blockchain.info/tx/6f99f594442f774447a43d63a3c4c00c4dd6a899f5b09ec695675044d1aa3a3e

[xkrikl]

New dividend paid:
261 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 707408283 (Nov 29-Dec 10) which is 0.00011597 per share
Transaction ID: https://blockchain.info/tx/0bbfd4791348e7e7ff042d21ea9a8ffc4e38744b9d56f6d91f52379a32939fd8

[xkrikl]

New dividend paid:
259 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 908350862 (Dec 10-21) which is 0.00008962 per share
Transaction ID: https://blockchain.info/tx/4d04176f92a32e39831fadaf6296bf7f01b9ade9736b269ec02c57a798797d34

[xkrikl]

New dividend paid:
272 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 1180923195 (Dec 21-Jan 2) which is 0.00007240 per share
Transaction ID: https://blockchain.info/tx/ddfbc7ac77ed9432d2008d14443ddcf849d9482f2d657073e2167edfc25415ae

New dividend paid:
266 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 1418481395 (Jan 2-13) which is 0.00005894 per share
Transaction ID: https://blockchain.info/tx/4496796486fdf0afff4dab422974ce445837cf24c54d9ce9a2421b64fa952ff9

New dividend pending:
274 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 1789546951 (Jan 13-24) which is 0.00004813 per share
I cannot send with sendmany on bitcoin-qt as there is a minimum of 54 uBTC for every piece. I'll send this payout together with the next one.

New dividend paid:
282 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 2193847870 (Jan 24-Feb 5) which is 0.00004040 per share
Toghether with previous period it is 0.00004813+0.00004040=0.00008853 per share.
Transaction ID: https://blockchain.info/tx/4252fed66ddf3d5051ccc6513d0e88e636c0a6e49f0726288142e901bd1b10e3

New dividend pending:
282 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 2621404453 (Feb 5-17) which is 0.00003381 per share
I cannot send with sendmany on bitcoin-qt as there is a minimum of 54 uBTC for every piece. I'll send this payout together with the next one.

New dividend paid:
275 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 3129573175 (Feb 17-28) which is 0.00002762 per share
Toghether with previous period it is 0.00003381+0.00002762=0.00006143 per share.
Transaction ID: https://blockchain.info/tx/86c69e1f87630481e3ddbb02a645689973114b4e27ea9c8c392cb1febbeedda7

New dividends pending:
302 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 3815723798 (Feb 28-Mar 13) which is 0.00002488 per share
286 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 4250217919 (Mar 13-24) which is 0.00002115 per share
I cannot send with sendmany on bitcoin-qt as there is a minimum of 54 uBTC for every piece. I'll send the payouts when the pending sum reaches the 54uBTC threshold.

New dividend paid:
275 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 5006860589 (Mar 24-Apr 5) which is 0.00001726 per share
Toghether with previous period it is 0.00002488+0.00002115+0.00001726=0.00006329 per share.
Transaction ID: https://blockchain.info/tx/c273ba48e8baf648ca306e2dc6d8b60924b785ac215423f4e8810d2ade6474b4

New dividends pending:
294 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 6119726089 (Apr 5-17) which is 0.00001510 per share
294 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 6978842649 (Apr 17-29) which is 0.00001324 per share
303 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 8000872135 (Apr 29-May 12) which is 0.00001190 per share
285 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 8853416309 (May 12-24) which is 0.00001012 per share
I cannot send with sendmany on bitcoin-qt as there is a minimum of 54 uBTC for every piece. I'll send the payouts when the pending sum reaches the 54uBTC threshold.

New dividend paid:
299 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 10455720138 (May 24-Jun 5) which is 0.00000899 per share
Toghether with previous period it is 0.00001510+0.00001324+0.00001190+0.00001012+0.00000899=0.00005935 per share.
Transaction ID: https://blockchain.info/tx/4616eb4bdf8e17bf3a3425862f084dfc5127f2bed9185c77c5667104f14a7e74

New dividends pending:
293 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 11756551916 (Jun 5-18) which is 0.00000783 per share
269 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 13462580114 (Jun 18-29) which is 0.00000628 per share
327 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 16818461371 (Jun 29-Jul 12) which is 0.00000611 per share
311 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 17336316978 (Jul 12-25) which is 0.00000563 per share
319 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 18736441558 (Jul 25-Aug 8 ) which is 0.00000535 per share
278 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 19729645940 (Aug 8-19) which is 0.00000443 per share
292 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 23844670038 (Aug 19-31) which is 0.00000385 per share
309 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 27428630902 (Aug 31-Sep 13) which is 0.00000354 per share
289 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 29829733124 (Sep 13-25) which is 0.00000305 per share
333 hours at 15mhash/s and difficulty 34661425923 (Sep 25-Oct 9) which is 0.00000302 per share

I cannot send with sendmany on bitcoin-qt as there is a minimum of 54 uBTC for every piece. I'll send the payouts when the pending sum reaches the 54uBTC threshold.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Has anyone been able to reach xkrikl, or know other contact details of xkrikl?

I am trying to get in contract with him, for a CoinLenders reimbursement.

If anyone has any way of reaching him, please get in touch with me so I can make a repayment.

UPDATE: I have successfully been able to talk to xkrikl on the phone!