Bitcoin: Mark of the Beast?

[Bitcoin Oz]

Almost certainly "DarkCoin" would spring up which is a blackmarket coin that competes with the government blockchain coin 

[Kazimir]

Almost certainly "DarkCoin" would spring up which is a blackmarket coin that competes with the government blockchain coin 

Heheh, and by common agreement in the protocol, DarkCoin would happily accept input coins from the regular strain as well. So eventually the government blockchain is gonna run dry

[Kluge]

Basically, whenever a merchant receives payment from a non-"green" address, the government would immediately know exactly who it is via an alerter system they developed, and almost certainly the location of the merchant operating unlawfully.

Uhmm, no, they wouldn't.

As far as these 'green' addresses are concerned, exactly how does 'legal money' end up appearing on this collection of green addresses? (considering the fact that any money from non-green addresses would be considered illegal)

All merchants and citizens must register their pre-existing addresses and move all funds into one registered "green" address (perhaps the government could assign a wallet citizens must use once they register their Bitcoins, and retain the private key in case that citizen were to act illegally). Phase it out, give everyone x months to come into compliance with the new regulations, and launch massive education campaigns, so anyone operating illegally past that point made a conscious decision to operate against the USG. Registered merchants must have GPS embedded within as part of receiving their merchant license. So, when a "bad" tx hits the blockchain, police are immediately alerted.

Police could quickly and easily ensure all merchants are in compliance with regulations as merchants would have their own transmitting chip which assigns every human being to a unique private key. That private key becomes their identity, which the government may retain. (In regards to other uses, this would allow the USG to ensure child sex offenders are not near your children. Once the offender is near any individuals whose private key indicates that person as a child on the national database, police could be dispatched immediately.)

It's really not a matter of oppression or centralization, but a safety measure essential to securing our national sovereignty. Just as we would not let murderous drug traffickers in the country, Amer'ca must come together in defense of our sovereignty when it comes to preventing those same murderous drug traffickers to fund their anti-American operations. This bill is essential, but I won't lie -- this bill does indeed lessen some privacy, which criminals would not want - BUT, this bill allows us to continue flourishing as a democratic and freedom-loving nation, permitting us to preserve and enjoy the freedoms prescribed to us by our Constitution, and stop the evil-doers who want to do harm to our country. Amer'ca will not waver in the face of terrorism, but strike decisively with the economic and military might which can only be found here - Land of the Free, Home of the Brave.

[Kazimir]

All merchants and citizens must register their pre-existing addresses

FLAW DETECTED.

If somebody registers 20 addresses, how would anyone know that they didn't have another 300 addresses that they keep hidden?

[cbeast]

All merchants and citizens must register their pre-existing addresses

FLAW DETECTED.

If somebody registers 20 addresses, how would anyone know that they didn't have another 300 addresses that they keep hidden?

Bitcoin is a form of cash and just as easy to hide as any other form of cash. Criminals often keep seperate sets of books with cash income. That's why there are audits.

[Kluge]

All merchants and citizens must register their pre-existing addresses

FLAW DETECTED.

If somebody registers 20 addresses, how would anyone know that they didn't have another 300 addresses that they keep hidden?

They can keep them hidden, but they can't use them to transact with registered (legal) merchants, nor can they be used to pay taxes. Once an unregistered address interacts with a registered merchant address, the police are immediately summoned and the block will not be processed by government miners (they don't need to profit off mining, and can do it as a "public service." Once they adopt Bitcoin as the official currency of Satan/America, they will be able to throw a LOT of cash at this, leaving little incentive for profit-centric entities to mine). When an individual submits his addresses, he testifies that those are the only addresses he controls. It would be likely not be difficult for government to prevent individual-to-individual transactions simply by having enough hashing power to be able to effectively dictate which transactions are processed.

(as an aside, citizens should be required to turn in their wallets' private keys when registering their addresses. Additionally, there is no reason the government cannot easily implement [or have corporations implement] something which can detect whatever the government wants to call "taint," or have merchants use payment processing software which will not accept funds from addresses not in the database, though it will send an immediate alert to the police.)

The government would be able to effectively reverse transactions (if citizens are required to submit private keys). Since funds can't go from merchants to unregistered individuals, petty theft of "cash" would pretty much be eliminated. Even if someone stole the funds to an individual account, they'd immediately be summoning the police, which makes the act much more complicated for the average petty criminal. It may also permit tax reports to be automated given the government knows exactly where everything's going if everyone's registered in a database. Transaction flags could be included which indicate to the IRS supercomputers how to tax the transactions.

[mollison]

I'm pretty sure we've just found a way to get Chuck Schumer and his buddies to begin supporting bitcoin.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Basically, whenever a merchant receives payment from a non-"green" address, the government would immediately know exactly who it is via an alerter system they developed, and almost certainly the location of the merchant operating unlawfully.

Uhmm, no, they wouldn't.

As far as these 'green' addresses are concerned, exactly how does 'legal money' end up appearing on this collection of green addresses? (considering the fact that any money from non-green addresses would be considered illegal)

All merchants and citizens must register their pre-existing addresses and move all funds into one registered "green" address (perhaps the government could assign a wallet citizens must use once they register their Bitcoins, and retain the private key in case that citizen were to act illegally). Phase it out, give everyone x months to come into compliance with the new regulations, and launch massive education campaigns, so anyone operating illegally past that point made a conscious decision to operate against the USG. Registered merchants must have GPS embedded within as part of receiving their merchant license. So, when a "bad" tx hits the blockchain, police are immediately alerted.

Police could quickly and easily ensure all merchants are in compliance with regulations as merchants would have their own transmitting chip which assigns every human being to a unique private key. That private key becomes their identity, which the government may retain. (In regards to other uses, this would allow the USG to ensure child sex offenders are not near your children. Once the offender is near any individuals whose private key indicates that person as a child on the national database, police could be dispatched immediately.)

It's really not a matter of oppression or centralization, but a safety measure essential to securing our national sovereignty. Just as we would not let murderous drug traffickers in the country, Amer'ca must come together in defense of our sovereignty when it comes to preventing those same murderous drug traffickers to fund their anti-American operations. This bill is essential, but I won't lie -- this bill does indeed lessen some privacy, which criminals would not want - BUT, this bill allows us to continue flourishing as a democratic and freedom-loving nation, permitting us to preserve and enjoy the freedoms prescribed to us by our Constitution, and stop the evil-doers who want to do harm to our country. Amer'ca will not waver in the face of terrorism, but strike decisively with the economic and military might which can only be found here - Land of the Free, Home of the Brave.

Not sure if trolling 

[Kazimir]

Haha, dude!

They can keep them hidden, but they can't use them to transact with registered (legal) merchants,

Just not with the green addresses of merchants, you mean.

nor can they be used to pay taxes.

Oh dear, yes, that will certainly keep them from using non-green addresses!

Once an unregistered address interacts with a registered merchant address, the police are immediately summoned and the block will not be processed by government miners (they don't need to profit off mining, and can do it as a "public service." Once they adopt Bitcoin as the official currency of Satan/America, they will be able to throw a LOT of cash at this, leaving little incentive for profit-centric entities to mine).

Ha, so Bitcoin would essentially become dependent of governments again? Not gonna happen sir
There will be plenty of private transaction-processing nodes all over the world.

The Bitcoin system cannot be manipulated by single organizations or authorities, not because of any arbitrary rules, but simply by design. They can summon the police all they want. Decentralized P2P traffic is here to stay, whether someone else wants it or not.

When an individual submits his addresses, he testifies that those are the only addresses he controls. It would be likely not be difficult for government to prevent individual-to-individual transactions simply by having enough hashing power to be able to effectively dictate which transactions are processed.

I think you strongly underestimate the hashing power of all individual bitcoin users combined.

And besides, it doesn't matter how much hashing power the government gets. They can deny to confirm transactions all they want. All that matters is that there is enough hashing power delivered by others, to confirm any pending transactions. Governments adding more and more hashing power for themselves, does not in any way decrease the hasing power of others.

(as an aside, citizens should be required to turn in their wallets' private keys when registering their addresses.

Oh, haha, right!

Additionally, there is no reason the government cannot easily implement [or have corporations implement] something which can detect whatever the government wants to call "taint," or have merchants use payment processing software which will not accept funds from addresses not in the database, though it will send an immediate alert to the police.)

There is no reason why any user or merchant would not choose to complete ignore whatever tainting system the government comes up with.
And government-restricted payment processing software? Why would they stick to that. Nothing prevents them from using an alternative system (for their additional, non-registered addresses) on the side.

The government would be able to effectively reverse transactions (if citizens are required to submit private keys). Since funds can't go from merchants to unregistered individuals, petty theft of "cash" would pretty much be eliminated. Even if someone stole the funds to an individual account, they'd immediately be summoning the police, which makes the act much more complicated for the average petty criminal. It may also permit tax reports to be automated given the government knows exactly where everything's going if everyone's registered in a database. Transaction flags could be included which indicate to the IRS supercomputers how to tax the transactions.

Keeps getting better and better You know what would actually happen? Any addresses with compromised private keys (because they were handed over to the government) will me marked as 'unsafe' and that is the portion of Bitcoin that will become ignored by the rest of the network. Good luck government & police. Reverse all you want. In the mean time we'll stick to our own subsytem that you don't know about and have no control over whatsoever, thank you very much.

[Stephen Gornick]

Please put the guy in the blockchain somebody !

That is in block 138,725 from July 30, 2011:
 - http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/3384/153

[niko]

Besides the point I already made, I am amused by the passive-aggressive stance toward governemt (presumably mostly by Americans).  I wonder when some noses and windows will break instead of armchair complaints. If you don't like where things are going in your society, do something about it, or find a better place and move.

[cbeast]

Besides the point I already made, I am amused by the passive-aggressive stance toward governemt (presumably mostly by Americans).  I wonder when some noses and windows will break instead of armchair complaints. If you don't like where things are going in your society, do something about it, or find a better place and move.

Why do you think we are here in Bitcoinland?

[crazy_rabbit]

Certainly businesses could be forced to use specific 'assigned' addresses, (it's easy enough to check if they aren't)

How is that, exactly?

It's quite easy- most countries run spot tax inspections on business to check that they aren't running software on their registers to re-write transactions, and to see that they are keeping records and generally doing their accounting legit.

Imagine a restaurant using bitcoin, a Tax inspector simply comes in, orders lunch, goes to pay and takes the receipt. He/she immediately checks the block chain to see if the transaction was recorded under the businesses registered address. It's enough to have the threat of tax inspectors with hefty fines to make most businesses forgo the risk of malfeasance.

Also as most businesses have suppliers, it's not hard for the tax authorities to trace the money from a tomato farmer right on up to your lunch time salad. Right now businesses need to keep meticulous receipts, it would be much easier if the IRS could just watch the money with their computers. Currently as it stands in most places its a bit of work for the tax authorities to get your bank statements to track your cash. (apparently in greece the banks actively screw the government by sending wrong forms, delaying, etc...)

[Elwar]

This verse seems prophetic about Bitcoin:

Revelations 42:8-12

"For he who shall hold the key shall enter the crypt. And all possessions shall be transacted upon by this act. The beast shall break the chains and rise up from the mount. And every bit shall be paid through a number set upon your person."

[cbeast]

This verse seems prophetic about Bitcoin:

Revelations 42:8-12

"For he who shall hold the key shall enter the crypt. And all possessions shall be transacted upon by this act. The beast shall break the chains and rise up from the mount. And every bit shall be paid through a number set upon your person."

Damn! You just found my Brain Wallet! 

[Red Emerald]

Sounds like SolidCoin 4

[notme]

And besides, it doesn't matter how much hashing power the government gets. They can deny to confirm transactions all they want. All that matters is that there is enough hashing power delivered by others, to confirm any pending transactions. Governments adding more and more hashing power for themselves, does not in any way decrease the hasing power of others.

Every heard of difficulty?

[Explodicle]

And besides, it doesn't matter how much hashing power the government gets. They can deny to confirm transactions all they want. All that matters is that there is enough hashing power delivered by others, to confirm any pending transactions. Governments adding more and more hashing power for themselves, does not in any way decrease the hasing power of others.

Every heard of difficulty?

That would just slow down non-government transactions, and make them more secure once confirmed by anyone. Kinda like the Mystery Miner who doesn't include new transactions.

This whole thread is silly. "Sorry officer, my computer got hacked and they stole all my bitcoins." An easy one-way gate into the black market will always be available. All the government would accomplish would be to legitimize cryptocurrency and broaden its use. Just for shits and giggles, I would intentionally poison some high-profile green addresses with tainted coins too. People who actually launder money normally through businesses would have a field day.

Ultimately, we would have people with brainwallets performing labor for one another, with no way to determine why they do what they do.

[Kluge]

Besides the point I already made, I am amused by the passive-aggressive stance toward governemt (presumably mostly by Americans).  I wonder when some noses and windows will break instead of armchair complaints. If you don't like where things are going in your society, do something about it, or find a better place and move.

Why do you think we are here in Bitcoinland?

Voluntary economy with Bitcoin makes sense. Breaking noses and windows, justifying a harsh gov't response does not. I suspect we're a far, far distance away from again murdering tax collectors by pouring hot tar on them and dragging their bodies through public centers. Well, there was that Joe Stack guy two or three years ago... but that guy was crazy. Tar/feather/murder of tax collectors is clearly a principled action, not an insanely callous one. (trololo)

[fergalish]

I've tried to discuss this before, see below, and subsequent replies and rebuttals to that thread.  I've never been completely satisfied that there is a defense against this attack.  In short, you'd end up with an 'official' blockchain, where gov't salaries would be paid, and tax would have to be paid in that chain.  And a black market chain, obviously illegal - the 'blackchain' 

I've written about this a few times.  Bitcoin is BigGovernments *wettest ever dream*.  Imagine the scenario where one entity has the 51% hashing power.  They get to approve - or not - ALL transactions.

1. Not an ApprovedBitcoinUser ©?  Rejected!
2. Not enough transaction fees (a.k.a. tax)?  Rejected!
3. Transacted coins coming from an UncertifiedAddressFromBeforeTheTakeover ©?  Rejected!

Think about it.  EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION is there for the powers-that-be to see, both before and after approval.