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Author Topic: Hey for the love of Satoshi can I PLEASE pay a tx fee?  (Read 3848 times)
DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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June 18, 2012, 05:47:40 AM
 #1

Look I want to pay a tx fee.  It is the only way to get ahead of the Satoshi Dice spam.  Free market at work and all that good stuff.   The problem is outside of standalone clients and a few ewallet providers I CAN'T.  Come on MtGox it isn't 2009 anymore.  Free tx are low priority.  At least give me the option of paying a fee.

So I am starting a list of clients, ewallets, exchanges, and other service providers and their fee policies.

Fee Types:
No fee = No fee is included with any normal transaction*.  User can not modify default behavior and include a fee.  (See Dust & Low Priority Exception below)
Fixed per tx fee = fee is a fixed value per tx (regardless of tx size).  The user can not change/override the fee.
Fixed per KB fee = fee is a fixed value per KB.  Most tx are <1KB but larger tx will pay a higher fee.  The user can not change/override the fee.
Variable fee = Fee is determined based on an algorithm and is not a single value per kb or per tx.   User can not change or override the fee.
Adjustable fee = User can change the fee to a desired amount (including zero*) to balance tx speed vs economy.

*Dust & Low Priority Exception:
The satoshi client (and others services built on it) have a set of required fee rules which deal with dust (very small txs) and low priority txs (priority is the product of age and value of inputs).   The purpose of this fee is to prevent denial of service attacks against the network not to prioritize txs or incentivize miners.  Nodes and miners following these rules will drop txs which don't include the required fee. If a client/service only incorporates the min mandatory fees it will be marked No fee but include a * to reflect it's handling of transactions which are classified as low priority or dust.

Clients
Satoshi/Reference client - Adjustable fee
Armory - Adjustable fee
BitcoinSpinner - Fixed Per KB Fee 0.0005 BTC (0.0005 min)
Electrum - Adjustable fee
Multibit - Adjustable fee (min fee of 0.0001 BTC per tx)
? ? ?

Exchanges
MtGox - No fee
CampBX - No fee*
Bitfloor - No fee
BTC-E - No fee (they do charge a fee but it doesn't go miners)
Intersango - No fee

eWallets
StrongCoin - Variable fee 0.5% of tx value (min of 0.0025)  This is portion of fee which is paid to miners
BlockChain.info - Adjustable fee (custom txs only)
Instawallet - No fee ? ? ?
EasyWallet.Org - Fixed Per Tx Fee 0.0005 BTC
PayTunia - ? ? ?
TorWallet  - No fee*

Mining Pools (top 10 pools only for brevity)
Deepbit - No fee
BTCGuild - No fee*
OzCoin - ?
Slush - ?
ABCPool - ?
50BTC - ?
BitMinter - ?
MtRed - ?

Note: p2pool & Eligus payout directly from the coinbase tx.  The compensation for miners is already part of the solved block and no subsequent tx is needed.  There is no concept of fee on coinbase txs.

Service Providers
Satoshi Dice - Variable fee   max(0.0005, (ins + outs) * 0.000075)  Author note:  wonder why they didn't just make it per KB?
Bitmit - Fixed per tx fee 0.001 BTC
CheaperInBitcoins - Fixed per tx fee 0.01 BTC

This is a work in progress and your help is appreciated.  If you have info on a fee policy or spot an error please post in the thread.  When stating a fee be sure to clarify if the fee is per KB, per tx, or unsure as both methods of calculating fee are used.  A service which follows only min required fee rules of the Satoshi client is considered "no fee".
There are several different types of Bitcoin clients. The most secure are full nodes like Bitcoin-Qt, but full nodes are more resource-heavy, and they must do a lengthy initial syncing process. As a result, lightweight clients with somewhat less security are commonly used.
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fatigue
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June 18, 2012, 05:51:13 AM
 #2

Strongcoin is actually 1% with a min. Of .005
DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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June 18, 2012, 05:52:12 AM
 #3

Strongcoin is actually 1% with a min. Of .005

Strongcoin charges 1% but only half goes to the miners.  I will clarify.  Thanks.
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June 18, 2012, 05:55:55 AM
 #4

Armory has adjustable fees.

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DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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June 18, 2012, 06:04:39 AM
 #5

Armory has adjustable fees.

Thanks.  Updated.
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June 18, 2012, 06:06:50 AM
 #6

Cheaperinbitcoins requires 0.01 BTC per merchant per order(so no matter what its guaranteed to be redeemed by the merchant almost by the first block)
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June 18, 2012, 06:21:37 AM
 #7

TORwallet charges a fixed 0.0005 BTC transaction fee.

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Gerald Davis


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June 18, 2012, 06:22:34 AM
 #8

TORwallet charges a fixed 0.0005 BTC transaction fee.

When you say "charges" you mean the fee is sent to miners correct? 
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June 18, 2012, 06:23:22 AM
 #9

TORwallet charges a fixed 0.0005 BTC transaction fee.

And that all goes directly to miners.

TORwallet charges a fixed 0.0005 BTC transaction fee.

When you say "charges" you mean the fee is sent to miners correct? 

Hehe I was going to post this just as you posted your reply.

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June 18, 2012, 06:28:37 AM
 #10

Are you certain the exchanges don't pay any fees to miners?

Still around.
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Gerald Davis


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June 18, 2012, 06:33:37 AM
 #11

Are you certain the exchanges don't pay any fees to miners?

I am not 100% certain but looking over my tx history I have never seen a fee.   Still if I am wrong I will happily update the list.

My theory is that exchanges tend to have lots of old coins.  They can use old coins in outgoing tx (high priority) and overtime the new coins become old.  It worked fine until recently.  They got high priority without ever paying a cent (except maybe the occasional "spam" tx).  Now a tx w/ old coins and no fee may get bypassed for 2 to 20 blocks due to the number of unconfirmed tx with a fee.  


Yhe point of the thread was to create a discussion and hopefully encourage providers to give the users THE OPTION.  Sometimes I may want to pay nothing and be comfortable knowing it gets into the block eventually.   Sometimes like when paying a sale I want it in the next block.  Period.  If that takes 0.0001 or even 0.01 BT I would rather pay it then wait an unknown number of blocks.  Even if the default is no fee, users should always have the option of paying a fee (or an increased fee) otherwise they have no control over their transactions.

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June 18, 2012, 07:09:37 AM
 #12

SatoshiDice:
It is actually max(0.0005, (ins + outs) * 0.000075) so is fairly stupid but is higher for larger transactions.

Code is here: http://code.google.com/r/fireduck-magicpony/source/browse/core/src/main/java/com/google/bitcoin/core/FeeFinderCounting.java

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June 18, 2012, 07:11:32 AM
 #13

MultiBit has an adjustable fee, minimum 0.0001 BTC.
All the fee goes to the miners.

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DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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June 18, 2012, 07:11:38 AM
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SatoshiDice:
It is actually max(0.0005, (ins + outs) * 0.000075) so is fairly stupid but is higher for larger transactions.

Code is here: http://code.google.com/r/fireduck-magicpony/source/browse/core/src/main/java/com/google/bitcoin/core/FeeFinderCounting.java

Nice cite.  Updated.
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June 18, 2012, 07:45:12 AM
 #15

We use a standard bitcoind with the coincontrol patch. Outgoing transactions use whatever fee it chooses, sometimes it is 0, other times it can be as high as 0.002, but the majority have been 0.0005.

If someone patches bitcoind so that you can set the fee in sendfrom, sendmany, or sendtoaddress please let us know because we are more than willing to add an option on our site.

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June 18, 2012, 07:54:18 AM
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Not sure how you'd want to classify BitcoinSpinner (an Android app.) It charges a set fee of 0.0005 BTC per transaction, all of which goes to the miners.

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Gerald Davis


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June 18, 2012, 07:58:06 AM
 #17

Not sure how you'd want to classify BitcoinSpinner (an Android app.) It charges a set fee of 0.0005 BTC per transaction, all of which goes to the miners.

I would call that "fixed fee 0.0005 BTC".  Updated.
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June 18, 2012, 08:02:08 AM
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Yhe point of the thread was to create a discussion and hopefully encourage providers to give the users THE OPTION.  Sometimes I may want to pay nothing and be comfortable knowing it gets into the block eventually.   Sometimes like when paying a sale I want it in the next block.  Period.  If that takes 0.0001 or even 0.01 BT I would rather pay it then wait an unknown number of blocks.  Even if the default is no fee, users should always have the option of paying a fee (or an increased fee) otherwise they have no control over their transactions.


I think the reason that no one gives users the option is because it is not supported in bitcoind. We would if it was possible.

Using settxfee opens up issues with concurrency errors. Say user1 sets a 0.0005 fee and user2 sets a 1 btc fee. RPC commands arrive at bitcoind in this order,

User1 settxfee
User2 settxfee
User1 sendfrom
User2 sendfrom

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June 18, 2012, 08:10:45 AM
 #19

Electrum client has adjustable fee.
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June 18, 2012, 08:17:44 AM
 #20

afaik MtGox has a contract with Luke-Jr's pool for including its transactions.
so they dont need to pay a fee (dont know if they do)
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