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Author Topic: BFL refused to issue refund because it was paid with bitcoin (via Bitpay)  (Read 4650 times)
bitcoindaddy
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June 21, 2012, 02:49:40 PM
 #1

My brother ordered 5 BFL singles with Paypal and 5 singles with bitcoin using Bitpay. He tried to cancel both orders.

BFL refunded the Paypal one, but refused to refund the Bitpay one saying it was non-refundable because it was paid with bitcoins.  WTF?  Angry
They missed their delivery guarantee by a lot. Can't they just issue a check? They could do Paypal too.

I also noticed they quietly removed the delivery guarantee from their website. Didn't it used to be on the right side of the order form?
Are they pretending it never existed?
Does anyone have a screenshot they can send me showing the guarantee for the inevitable lawsuit?
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June 21, 2012, 02:52:47 PM
 #2

A few others had mentioned BFL not refunding for BTC purchases.  Caveat Emptor and all...

Would be pro-active of BFL if they more clearly noted that BTC transactions are non-refundable...

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June 21, 2012, 02:57:23 PM
 #3

That's the thing with BTC: no charge-backs.

You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
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June 21, 2012, 02:58:59 PM
 #4

A few others had mentioned BFL not refunding for BTC purchases.  Caveat Emptor and all...

Would be pro-active of BFL if they more clearly noted that BTC transactions are non-refundable...

I ran into the same thing. I bought at $5.2, and then the price went to $6.5. However, after I couldn't refund, I told them I wanted to transfer my order of 1 single to 4 Jalapenos, and Jody said that when my Single was ready to ship, she would contact me again with further transfer options. I really don't know what that means, but we'll go with it haha. I just want my ASICs before anyone else. Tongue

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bitlane
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June 21, 2012, 03:00:54 PM
 #5

My brother ordered 5 BFL singles with Paypal and 5 singles with bitcoin using Bitpay. He tried to cancel both orders.

BFL refunded the Paypal one, but refused to refund the Bitpay one saying it was non-refundable because it was paid with bitcoins.  WTF?  Angry
They missed their delivery guarantee by a lot. Can't they just issue a check? They could do Paypal too.

I also noticed they quietly removed the delivery guarantee from their website. Didn't it used to be on the right side of the order form?
Are they pretending it never existed?
Does anyone have a screenshot they can send me showing the guarantee for the inevitable lawsuit?

If you don't mind sharing, WHEN were your orders placed ? What was the Order Confirmation date for both orders ?

bitcoindaddy
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June 21, 2012, 03:02:36 PM
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If you don't mind sharing, WHEN were your orders placed ? What was the Order Confirmation date for both orders ?

April 17.
rjk
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June 21, 2012, 03:02:56 PM
 #7

That's the thing with BTC: no charge-backs.
Refund =/= chargeback. However, a refund would net you the USD equivalent, so you wouldn't have as many coins, even if they were able to refund them.

Which brings up a question: what does Bit-Pay offer to a merchant in terms of USD or BTC refunds? If it simply isn't an option, it should probably be added.

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bitcoindaddy
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June 21, 2012, 03:03:38 PM
 #8

A few others had mentioned BFL not refunding for BTC purchases.  Caveat Emptor and all...

Would be pro-active of BFL if they more clearly noted that BTC transactions are non-refundable...
Then why the f*ck do they have a guarantee? And where was it stated on their webpage or the order form that there is no cancellation if you pay with bitcoin?
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June 21, 2012, 03:05:43 PM
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A few others had mentioned BFL not refunding for BTC purchases.  Caveat Emptor and all...

Would be pro-active of BFL if they more clearly noted that BTC transactions are non-refundable...
Then why the f*ck do they have a guarantee? And where was it stated on their webpage or the order form that there is no cancellation if you pay with bitcoin?

You probably have good grounds to take them to court on it atleast if they insist that they will not give you a refund otherwise.

If my post helped, I'll happily accept a few bitmills!   15rGg6A1JFZV3b7TTbtpAaiYGdUD1e1oAm
bitlane
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June 21, 2012, 03:07:49 PM
 #10

If you don't mind sharing, WHEN were your orders placed ? What was the Order Confirmation date for both orders ?

April 17.

THAT'S BULLSHIT !

I can't believe how they treat their customers....and how many customers put up with it.
BFL should be held accountable for some sort of compensation after 8 weeks. This is just ridiculous.

They 'press release' says they are a market leader..blah..blah..blah.
MORE LIKE A FUCKING MARKET JOKE.
Venture Capitol ? YOU are the Venture Capitalist, by allowing them to hold your money for 3 months at times without delivering what they promise to in 1-1.5 months.

Everyone should use Credit Card ONLY and CANCEL THE TRANSACTIONS if product is not received at the 8 week point.
THAT will teach them.

Unfortunately, they have ben lucky, using Bit-Pay and BTC funded of orders, so they have NO OBLIGATION to be speedy, as there is NOTHING you can do about it once paid.

They have ZERO INCENTIVE to maintain reasonable delivery times.

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June 21, 2012, 03:08:45 PM
 #11

For fuck's sake bitlane, calm the fuck down.

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June 21, 2012, 03:08:50 PM
 #12

How will you prove you sent them Bitcoins if the wallet is anonymous.
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June 21, 2012, 03:10:18 PM
 #13

If you don't mind sharing, WHEN were your orders placed ? What was the Order Confirmation date for both orders ?

April 17.

THAT'S BULLSHIT !

I can't believe how they treat their customers....and how many customers put up with it.
BFL should be held accountable for some sort of compensation after 8 weeks. This is just ridiculous.

They 'press release' says they are a market leader..blah..blah..blah.
MORE LIKE A FUCKING MARKET JOKE.
Venture Capitol ? YOU are the Venture Capitalist, by allowing them to hold your money for 3 months at times without delivering what they promise to in 1-1.5 months.

Everyone should use Credit Card ONLY and CANCEL THE TRANSACTIONS if product is not received at the 8 week point.
THAT will teach them.

Unfortunately, they have ben lucky, using Bit-Pay and BTC funded of orders, so they have NO OBLIGATION to be speedy, as there is NOTHING you can do about it once paid.

They have ZERO INCENTIVE to maintain reasonable delivery times.

Stick your stinky sock in your mouth, I will decide myself how I pay and if I cancel or not.
bitlane
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June 21, 2012, 03:10:21 PM
 #14

For fuck's sake bitlane, calm the fuck down.
I'm passionate...lol
You know, kinda like you are about begging for donations in your forum sig ?

I care too much  Roll Eyes

bitlane
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June 21, 2012, 03:11:35 PM
 #15

Stick your stinky sock in your mouth, I will decide myself how I pay and if I cancel or not.

As I told you before....
I can't take anyone seriously, who begs for BTC in their forum sig like a bottom-feeder.
Get a fuckin' job.

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June 21, 2012, 03:13:19 PM
 #16

You know, kinda like you are about begging for donations in your forum sig ?
Right, like I'm the only one. Roll Eyes
At least I have a few in there, unlike most.

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June 21, 2012, 03:14:47 PM
 #17

I suppose I'd expect them not to refund bitcoins when they have a different value than at the time when they were paid.  However, I'm kind of surprised that they won't give a refund of the cash value the bitcoins had when you paid.

If your spot in line is over 6 weeks ago, I'll be glad to take it off your hands for the fair value of the refund, 599 x 5 + 33 = $3,028.  If we can't switch the address on the order to mine, I'll pay for your additional shipping cost.

If you were simply wanting the refund because BTC went up in value, I apologize for butting in on your thread.
bitlane
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June 21, 2012, 03:15:52 PM
 #18

You know, kinda like you are about begging for donations in your forum sig ?
Right, like I'm the only one. Roll Eyes
At least I have a few in there, unlike most.

Don't worry. That's just my OCD acting up.
After I tell you to fuck off a few times, be-little you a bit...then take my meds and apologize, we will all be friends again  Roll Eyes

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June 21, 2012, 03:25:17 PM
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I suppose I'd expect them not to refund bitcoins when they have a different value than at the time when they were paid.  However, I'm kind of surprised that they won't give a refund of the cash value the bitcoins had when you paid.

If your spot in line is over 6 weeks ago, I'll be glad to take it off your hands for the fair value of the refund, 599 x 5 + 33 = $3,028.  If we can't switch the address on the order to mine, I'll pay for your additional shipping cost.

If you were simply wanting the refund because BTC went up in value, I apologize for butting in on your thread.

We have processed refunds only if the merchant agrees.  And the refund is NOT the amount of bitcoins you initially paid.  It is the dollar equivalent. 

So if you paid 200 bitcoins for something when they were worth $5, and we sent that $1000 along to the merchant, you will not get a refund worth $1330 today for your 200 bitcoins.  You would get however many bitcoins are equal to the $1000 USD value you paid.

Again we do this only at the discretion of the merchant.  My recommendation is to sell your space in line, or roll that into an upgrade.

BitPay : The World Leader in Bitcoin Business Solutions

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Does your website accept bitcoins?
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June 21, 2012, 03:26:59 PM
 #20

How will you prove you sent them Bitcoins if the wallet is anonymous.

It's not anonymous. You can sign a message to prove you own the wallet, and from there people can check the transaction history.

Since this particular spend was done using Bitpay, THEY would have to sign the message.
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June 21, 2012, 03:28:38 PM
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We have processed refunds only if the merchant agrees.  And the refund is NOT the amount of bitcoins you initially paid.  It is the dollar equivalent. 

Yes, that's clear. But I wonder if BFL understands they could issue the refund in dollars or by some other method. Since they won't return my phone calls and won't reply to email, I'll probably never know.
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June 21, 2012, 03:35:43 PM
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Just to clarify, the refund policy applies to all payment methods.  Our CS clerk is only familiar with how to do this with PayPal as it's a simple click.  BTC, Bank wire & Dwolla require calculating the cost of transaction and subtracting that amount from the sum sent.  Our CSR has *NOT* refused anyone a refund, she only said she'd have to ask how to do it.

So, once again...  if you're looking for a refund, you can get one no matter the method of payment.

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June 21, 2012, 03:38:10 PM
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Thanks for clarifying BFL!

Best place for this is detailed on the website  Grin

bitcoindaddy
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June 21, 2012, 03:38:21 PM
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Just to clarify, the refund policy applies to all payment methods.  Our CS clerk is only familiar with how to do this with PayPal as it's a simple click.  BTC, Bank wire & Dwolla require calculating the cost of transaction and subtracting that amount from the sum sent.  Our CSR has *NOT* refused anyone a refund, she only said she'd have to ask how to do it.

So, once again...  if you are looking for a refund, you can get one no matter the method of payment.

Glad to hear that she was misinformed. However, she never said she was looking into it. This is the only communication my brother received:

Code:
"I have refunded your PayPal order for 5 singles. The Bit-Pay order, however, is not refundable. --Jody"
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June 21, 2012, 03:40:03 PM
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Just to clarify, the refund policy applies to all payment methods.  Our CS clerk is only familiar with how to do this with PayPal as it's a simple click.  BTC, Bank wire & Dwolla require calculating the cost of transaction and subtracting that amount from the sum sent.  Our CSR has *NOT* refused anyone a refund, she only said she'd have to ask how to do it.

So, once again...  if you are looking for a refund, you can get one no matter the method of payment.

Glad to hear that she was misinformed. However, she never said she was looking into it. This is the only communication my brother received:

Code:
"I have refunded your PayPal order for 5 singles. The Bit-Pay order, however, is not refundable. --Jody"

I understand the confusion, she didn't explain herself well.  No worries, we'll get you taken care of.

Butterfly Labs  -  www.butterflylabs.com  -  Bitcoin Mining Hardware
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June 21, 2012, 07:28:49 PM
 #26

Oh, good. You won't have be sued by the FTC for $16,000/order after all.

Anyone who isn't able to get a refund, please contact the FTC.

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June 21, 2012, 07:39:58 PM
 #27

Change thread title to indicate resolved status?

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June 21, 2012, 07:45:31 PM
 #28

Change thread title to indicate resolved status?

No refund has been made. I'll change it when it is really resolved.
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June 21, 2012, 08:01:31 PM
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Just to clarify, the refund policy applies to all payment methods.  Our CS clerk is only familiar with how to do this with PayPal as it's a simple click.  BTC, Bank wire & Dwolla require calculating the cost of transaction and subtracting that amount from the sum sent.  Our CSR has *NOT* refused anyone a refund, she only said she'd have to ask how to do it.

So, once again...  if you are looking for a refund, you can get one no matter the method of payment.

Glad to hear that she was misinformed. However, she never said she was looking into it. This is the only communication my brother received:

Code:
"I have refunded your PayPal order for 5 singles. The Bit-Pay order, however, is not refundable. --Jody"

I understand the confusion, she didn't explain herself well.  No worries, we'll get you taken care of.

It did not appear to be a matter of not explaining well. Because I got the same clear message regarding bank wire:
Quote
Orders made through PayPal can be refunded. Bankwire is not a method of payment we are refunding.

That is not the same as telling me that the staff needed to ask how to do it. And it does not appear to be Jody's fault. The problem seems to be training of personnel on policy & procedures. Also, a possible issue with being understaffed.

For what it's worth, I decided to hold off on asking further for a refund and to give BFL a second chance to deliver the products (soon).
But my patience is very limited.

Who wants to receive a miner and be financially forced to ship it back as soon as receipt just to pay for an upgrade? Think about that.

||bit
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June 21, 2012, 08:19:14 PM
 #30

well you could always file a small claims against them for the original purchase price in bitcoins + fees and make the come cross country to defend themselves.
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June 21, 2012, 08:24:53 PM
 #31

the cs from a market leader is unable to refund a bank wire because it takes more than a few clicks!

WTF! muhaha!
Quote
“Butterfly Labs has always considered itself a serious manufacturer in the SHA-256 hardware...

muhahahha!

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June 21, 2012, 09:33:20 PM
 #32

Just to clarify, the refund policy applies to all payment methods.  Our CS clerk is only familiar with how to do this with PayPal as it's a simple click.  BTC, Bank wire & Dwolla require calculating the cost of transaction and subtracting that amount from the sum sent.  Our CSR has *NOT* refused anyone a refund, she only said she'd have to ask how to do it.

So, once again...  if you are looking for a refund, you can get one no matter the method of payment.

Glad to hear that she was misinformed. However, she never said she was looking into it. This is the only communication my brother received:

Code:
"I have refunded your PayPal order for 5 singles. The Bit-Pay order, however, is not refundable. --Jody"

I understand the confusion, she didn't explain herself well.  No worries, we'll get you taken care of.

"She didn't explain herself well" is false.  Jody lied to your customers. Either that or BFL is doing business in violation of a number of laws concerning failure to deliver a product within the time frame advertised (in most states, you MUST offer a refund if delayed past advertised delivery time, and BFL, not customers, would also be liable for fees in this case).  

Which is it?

PS: Where is Butterfly Labs incorporated?
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June 21, 2012, 10:17:27 PM
 #33

"She didn't explain herself well" is false.  Jody lied to your customers. Either that or BFL is doing business in violation of a number of laws concerning failure to deliver a product within the time frame advertised (in most states, you MUST offer a refund if delayed past advertised delivery time, and BFL, not customers, would also be liable for fees in this case).  

Which is it?

PS: Where is Butterfly Labs incorporated?

I don't think saying Jody lied is something that can be concluded. Let's not risk defaming anyone like that. It seems more likely that they just didn't train the staff on their refund policy and/or establish simple refund process. Which is concerning about the company, since it seems like a simple no brainer thing to set up a simple refund process. Just get an accountant to set up a simple web based check mailing service. I do it with my payments and it works great. But there might be some kind of 'businessy' reason to make it more complicated... I don't know.

BTW: BFL is in Kansas City Missouri. Check the website for the address.

||bit
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June 21, 2012, 11:03:30 PM
 #34

Just another PERFECT EXAMPLE of the regard BFL has for the Bitcoin currency / community in general!

They manufacture Bitcoin mining devices and make their living from this currency yet they regard PAYPAL! of all things a more stable and reliable form of currency that they are happy to refund Paypal but will not refund the very same currency they make their bread and butter from.

Or is it the fact that PayPal can REVERSE THE CHARGE and MAKE THEM PAY

and with Bitcoin THEY KNOW THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH RIPPING YOU OFF! (irreversible)

Either case it makes me sick that so many of us are entrusting the future of the Bitcoin network with these people.
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June 21, 2012, 11:19:29 PM
 #35

and with Bitcoin THEY KNOW THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH RIPPING YOU OFF! (irreversible)

Did you read the thread?

Seems like a CS misunderstanding. Which is a bit concerning considering how much money BFL has received. But there's no malicious intent here.

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June 21, 2012, 11:46:23 PM
 #36

Just another PERFECT EXAMPLE of the regard BFL has for the Bitcoin currency / community in general!

They manufacture Bitcoin mining devices and make their living from this currency yet they regard PAYPAL! of all things a more stable and reliable form of currency that they are happy to refund Paypal but will not refund the very same currency they make their bread and butter from.

Or is it the fact that PayPal can REVERSE THE CHARGE and MAKE THEM PAY

and with Bitcoin THEY KNOW THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH RIPPING YOU OFF! (irreversible)

Either case it makes me sick that so many of us are entrusting the future of the Bitcoin network with these people.


This trolling calls for creating a new thread and sticking it at the top of the forum, doesn't it?
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June 22, 2012, 12:29:04 AM
 #37

Just another PERFECT EXAMPLE of the regard BFL has for the Bitcoin currency / community in general!

They manufacture Bitcoin mining devices and make their living from this currency yet they regard PAYPAL! of all things a more stable and reliable form of currency that they are happy to refund Paypal but will not refund the very same currency they make their bread and butter from.

Or is it the fact that PayPal can REVERSE THE CHARGE and MAKE THEM PAY

and with Bitcoin THEY KNOW THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH RIPPING YOU OFF! (irreversible)

Either case it makes me sick that so many of us are entrusting the future of the Bitcoin network with these people.


This trolling calls for creating a new thread and sticking it at the top of the forum, doesn't it?
From the competition, no less!

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June 22, 2012, 12:45:51 AM
 #38

Hmm... I wonder if bulanula is associated with this company....
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June 22, 2012, 12:58:53 AM
 #39

Hmm... I wonder if bulanula is associated with this company....

I know its just a joke, but you're giving him too much credit.

He would be lucky to be associated with ANY company.

I'm 100% sure hes just a kid still asking for allowance. Poor kid probably doesnt have much attention and must rely on forums to live day by day mentally.
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June 22, 2012, 05:13:33 AM
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Just another PERFECT EXAMPLE of the regard BFL has for the Bitcoin currency / community in general!

They manufacture Bitcoin mining devices and make their living from this currency yet they regard PAYPAL! of all things a more stable and reliable form of currency that they are happy to refund Paypal but will not refund the very same currency they make their bread and butter from.

Or is it the fact that PayPal can REVERSE THE CHARGE and MAKE THEM PAY

and with Bitcoin THEY KNOW THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH RIPPING YOU OFF! (irreversible)

Either case it makes me sick that so many of us are entrusting the future of the Bitcoin network with these people.


This trolling calls for creating a new thread and sticking it at the top of the forum, doesn't it?


+1  Tongue

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June 22, 2012, 05:48:57 AM
 #41

Hmm... I wonder if bulanula is associated with this company....

I know its just a joke, but you're giving him too much credit.

He would be lucky to be associated with ANY company.

I'm 100% sure hes just a kid still asking for allowance. Poor kid probably doesnt have much attention and must rely on forums to live day by day mentally.



giggle.  Yes, I too rely on this forum for my mental health.

O.o
norulezapply
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June 22, 2012, 09:32:38 AM
 #42

Hmm... I wonder if bulanula is associated with this company....

I know its just a joke, but you're giving him too much credit.

He would be lucky to be associated with ANY company.

I'm 100% sure hes just a kid still asking for allowance. Poor kid probably doesnt have much attention and must rely on forums to live day by day mentally.


+1, you're probably right.

As for the customer services rep being "undertrained" or "misinformed". You know this is total BS. They are only saying they will offer a refund now because if they don't they know they risk getting into legal trouble.

That's why "Jody" initially refused to refund irreversible methods, because they're trying to get away with your money because they know most people won't persue the claim further.

If my post helped, I'll happily accept a few bitmills!   15rGg6A1JFZV3b7TTbtpAaiYGdUD1e1oAm
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you got hacked bitch!


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June 23, 2012, 09:03:07 PM
 #43

Wow... Beware BFL!!!!

I am the Bitcoinica Hacker.
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June 23, 2012, 09:45:59 PM
 #44

Change thread title to indicate resolved status?

No refund has been made. I'll change it when it is really resolved.

Did you end up getting your refund?
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June 24, 2012, 12:01:31 AM
 #45

Change thread title to indicate resolved status?

No refund has been made. I'll change it when it is really resolved.

Did you end up getting your refund?

No, at least they emailed me and said I would get one, but I'm still waiting. In the mean time, I can't order the SC's until they refund my bitcoin.
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June 24, 2012, 01:37:08 PM
 #46

Hmm... I wonder if bulanula is associated with this company....

I know its just a joke, but you're giving him too much credit.

He would be lucky to be associated with ANY company.

I'm 100% sure hes just a kid still asking for allowance. Poor kid probably doesnt have much attention and must rely on forums to live day by day mentally.


I work as a CTR ( customer trolling representative ) for BFL : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60586.msg975270#msg975270

Cheesy
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June 25, 2012, 08:25:55 AM
 #47

Change thread title to indicate resolved status?

No refund has been made. I'll change it when it is really resolved.

Did you end up getting your refund?

No, at least they emailed me and said I would get one, but I'm still waiting. In the mean time, I can't order the SC's until they refund my bitcoin.

Dear Bitcoin Daddy,

We apologize for the time it has taken to process your request. This is mainly due to the huge number of emails we've received lately.
I must say that if your intention is to convert Bitcoin to SC, then you will not loose your place/priority as time goes by.


Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

BF Labs Inc.  www.butterflylabs.com   -  Bitcoin Mining Hardware
bitcoindaddy
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June 26, 2012, 10:18:13 AM
 #48

Change thread title to indicate resolved status?

No refund has been made. I'll change it when it is really resolved.

Did you end up getting your refund?

No, at least they emailed me and said I would get one, but I'm still waiting. In the mean time, I can't order the SC's until they refund my bitcoin.

Dear Bitcoin Daddy,

We apologize for the time it has taken to process your request. This is mainly due to the huge number of emails we've received lately.
I must say that if your intention is to convert Bitcoin to SC, then you will not loose your place/priority as time goes by.


Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

I still haven't gotten the refund, it's been 8 days
Not sure what you mean - I have no place in line and when I finally get the refund, everyone else will be ahead of me.
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June 27, 2012, 05:54:56 PM
 #49

After 9 days, the refund was received for the bitcoin (Bitpay) payment. Thank-you BFL.
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June 27, 2012, 06:16:27 PM
 #50

Change thread title to indicate resolved status?

No refund has been made. I'll change it when it is really resolved.

Did you end up getting your refund?

No, at least they emailed me and said I would get one, but I'm still waiting. In the mean time, I can't order the SC's until they refund my bitcoin.

Dear Bitcoin Daddy,

We apologize for the time it has taken to process your request. This is mainly due to the huge number of emails we've received lately.
I must say that if your intention is to convert Bitcoin to SC, then you will not loose your place/priority as time goes by.


Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

I still haven't gotten the refund, it's been 8 days
Not sure what you mean - I have no place in line and when I finally get the refund, everyone else will be ahead of me.
I think what they mean is, instead of asking for a refund and then submitted an order for SC, just change your order to SC.  Then you won't lose your original order spot.

This is good news for me too though - it sounds as though prior orders that are converted will take precedence over new orders!
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