Guns

[westkybitcoins]

You guys just had to. Ugh.

Well, I'd thought about it earlier but hadn't wanted to resurrect this thread. Might as well toss this into the mix now, since we all really know this is much less about disarming criminals (ha!) than about disarming the average, innocent citizen:

http://www.webpronews.com/gunsmith-uses-3d-printer-to-make-a-rifle-2012-07

(Funny how the original article seems to have disappeared....)

[1715108600]

1715108600

[1715108600]

1715108600

[myrkul]

You guys just had to. Ugh.

Well, I'd thought about it earlier but hadn't wanted to resurrect this thread. Might as well toss this into the mix now, since we all really know this is much less about disarming criminals (ha!) than about disarming the average, innocent citizen:

http://www.webpronews.com/gunsmith-uses-3d-printer-to-make-a-rifle-2012-07

(Funny how the original article seems to have disappeared....)

Yup, that's got it's own thread. Now, I wonder if you can print reloading equipment...

(from the looks of direction the Aurora conversation is going, ammo is next)

[vampire]

Average deaths in incidents where the shooter was apprehended by a proactive citizen: 2.2

Thanks to the folks over at the Silver Circle movie for the heads-up, and all the stats.

Where is 2.2 number came from? Because uh well, I can do some real mixing of statistics. I think I already proved my mad skillz.

Because I can easily uh get a number of people that were apprehended by cops every year....

[myrkul]

Average deaths in incidents where the shooter was apprehended by a proactive citizen: 2.2

Thanks to the folks over at the Silver Circle movie for the heads-up, and all the stats.

Where is 2.2 number came from? Because uh well, I can do some real mixing of statistics. I think I already proved my mad skillz.

Because I can easily uh get a number of people that were apprehended by cops every year....

Ahh, an argument I had not expected: "How did you get that average?" Well, It's an average. To get an average, you total up all the incidents:

1997
    Luke Woodham slit’s his mother’s throat and entered Pearl High School in Mississippi with a rifle. 3 dead
 1997
    Satanist Michael Carneal opens fire on a small prayer group killing three
1998
    Andrew Wurst takes a pistol to a middle school dance, killing a teacher
 2002
    Peter Odighizuwa takes a semiautomatic handgun to Appalacian Law School in Grundy Virginia. He kills 3
2012
    Also in Aurora, Colorado, convicted felon Kiarron Parker entered the parking lot of a church and opened fire. He killed one person

3+3+1+3+1 = 11

Then, you count the number of incidents (5, in this case, the ones where a proactive citizen did something to stop the killing), and then you divide to get an average: 11/5 = 2.2

See, simple maths.

[vampire]

See, simple maths.

Not so simple. Because you forgot to count where cops stopped murderers. Duh. You only picked massacres.

[vampire]

1966
Charles Joseph Whitman kills his mother and his wife, and the following day climbed a clock tower at the University of Texas and picked off passers by with a sniper riffle. 15 dead and 31 injured. Charles was shot and killed by Austin police.

Of course you forgot that a bunch of civies tried to shoot him. So fail.

[FirstAscent]

Indeed, back to guns.

First, a little Ice-T on a Sunday afternoon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-GwIbyp4xBU

And now, some maths:
Mass shootings, in chronological order:

    1966
    Charles Joseph Whitman kills his mother and his wife, and the following day climbed a clock tower at the University of Texas and picked off passers by with a sniper riffle. 15 dead and 31 injured. Charles was shot and killed by Austin police.

    1997
    Luke Woodham slit’s his mother’s throat and entered Pearl High School in Mississippi with a rifle. 3 dead and 7 injured total. As he fled the scene he was confronted by vice principal Joel Myrick who had retrieved a handgun from his trunk, and was roaming the school looking for the killer. Myrick apprehended Luke without firing and held him until authorities arrived. Investigators later learned that Luke intended to go to Pearl Middle School next.

    1997
    Satanist Michael Carneal opens fire on a small prayer group killing three and injuring 5 before being tackled by another student.

    1998
    Andrew Wurst takes a pistol to a middle school dance, killing a teacher and wounding 3 others. James Strand, a local merchant, apprehended Andrew with a shotgun without firing and held him until authorities arrived.

    1999
    Eric Harris, and Dylan Klebold kill 13 people and wound 24 at Columbine High School in Littleton Colorado. What many people do not know is that Columbine high school had an armed security guard on staff who stayed outside while the attacks when on, and once police arrived they stood outside the library while execution style murders happened right inside.

    2002
    Peter Odighizuwa takes a semiautomatic handgun to Appalacian Law School in Grundy Virginia. He kills 3 and injures 3, starting with the dean. Three students, Mikael Gross, Ted Besen, and Tracy Bridges, all retrieved handguns from their cars and apprehended him without firing.

    2007
    Seung-hui Cho opened fire inside the West Ambler Johnston Hall of Virginia Tech. Authorities apprehend the boyfriend of one of the victims. Meanwhile Cho walks over to Norris Hall and opens fire two hours later. 33 dead in all.

    2012
    Also in Aurora, Colorado, convicted felon Kiarron Parker entered the parking lot of a church and opened fire. He killed one person before being shot and killed himself by another member of the congregation who was carrying concealed… but you didn’t see that story on the news.

    2012
    And now this recent attack. James Holmes goes into a crowded movie theater in Aurora, Colorado and opens fire with an AR-15 semi-automatic assault rifle. 12 people were killed, 59 were wounded, making this the largest mass shooting in US history.

Average deaths in incidents where the shooter was apprehended by the police: 18.25
Average deaths in incidents where the shooter was apprehended by a proactive citizen: 2.2

Thanks to the folks over at the Silver Circle movie for the heads-up, and all the stats.

I suppose you can get any numbers you want if you just decide to selectively include a subset of the mass shootings that have occurred within the time frame you have selected. Is there any particular reason why you chose to only include a fraction of the mass shootings that have occurred in the U.S.?

Seriously. I count 25 mass shootings just since the year 2000. And that's just from one source.

[vampire]

Stopped by cops:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Western_Reserve_University_shooting Stopped by police. 1 dead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickliffe_Middle_School_shooting 1 dead

I can look for more wiki ain't useful.

BTW when was the last time that anyone got shot in high school in NYC? Like 50s?

[vampire]

Lets see if gun friendly states had more shootings (and more victims) than not gun friendly states.

[myrkul]

I thought your motivation was this:

My whole reason posting here was to prove to everyone - no statistics exists that proves that guns increase or reduce violence.

Instead, you now seem to be taking an utilitarian anti-gun position - that more guns = more violence... So, which battle-ground do you want to fight on, utilitarian, or moral?

[vampire]

I thought your motivation was this:

My whole reason posting here was to prove to everyone - no statistics exists that proves that guns increase or reduce violence.

Instead, you now seem to be taking an utilitarian anti-gun position - that more guns = more violence... So, which battle-ground do you want to fight on, utilitarian, or moral?

I am countering your useless statistics with my useless statistics.

[myrkul]

I thought your motivation was this:

My whole reason posting here was to prove to everyone - no statistics exists that proves that guns increase or reduce violence.

Instead, you now seem to be taking an utilitarian anti-gun position - that more guns = more violence... So, which battle-ground do you want to fight on, utilitarian, or moral?

I am countering your useless statistics with my useless statistics.

Go right ahead. Here, this link, and the pages connected to it, should help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_Americas

Should be enough data there to weave a rope to hang yourself with. I'll even allow three categories: stopped by cop (arrested, killed by police), Stopped by citizen (or mob), and Not stopped (suicide, escaped). Have fun,  and remember, I'll be checking your data.

[vampire]

Go right ahead. Here, this link, and the pages connected to it, should help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_Americas

Should be enough data there to weave a rope to hang yourself with. I'll even allow three categories: stopped by cop (arrested, killed by police), Stopped by citizen (or mob), and Not stopped (suicide, escaped). Have fun,  and remember, I'll be checking your data.

Really? Learn to read first. Go back to the page and read. Now collect all of the data that I need - each incident must have a compete story. (And don't forget to include school massacres, workplace killings, hate crimes)

[myrkul]

Go right ahead. Here, this link, and the pages connected to it, should help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_Americas

Should be enough data there to weave a rope to hang yourself with. I'll even allow three categories: stopped by cop (arrested, killed by police), Stopped by citizen (or mob), and Not stopped (suicide, escaped). Have fun,  and remember, I'll be checking your data.

Really? Learn to read first. Go back to the page and read. Now collect all of the data that I need - each incident must have a compete story. (And don't forget to include school massacres, workplace killings, hate crimes)

No, no, no.... You said you were countering my useless statistics with your useless statistics. My useless statistics have already been posted: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90086.msg1063729#msg1063729 We're waiting on yours, now. All the links are there to collect all the data you want to make an average. Go on, I'll wait.

[FirstAscent]

Go right ahead. Here, this link, and the pages connected to it, should help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_Americas

Should be enough data there to weave a rope to hang yourself with. I'll even allow three categories: stopped by cop (arrested, killed by police), Stopped by citizen (or mob), and Not stopped (suicide, escaped). Have fun,  and remember, I'll be checking your data.

Really? Learn to read first. Go back to the page and read. Now collect all of the data that I need - each incident must have a compete story. (And don't forget to include school massacres, workplace killings, hate crimes)

No, no, no.... You said you were countering my useless statistics with your useless statistics. My useless statistics have already been posted: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90086.msg1063729#msg1063729 We're waiting on yours, now. All the links are there to collect all the data you want to make an average. Go on, I'll wait.

I think the point is, nobody should take you seriously if you can't respect your own research enough to do it thoroughly. I believe the burden falls upon you to demonstrate the completeness of your statistics.

[myrkul]

I think the point is, nobody should take you seriously if you can't respect your own research enough to do it thoroughly. I believe the burden falls upon you to demonstrate the completeness of your statistics.

Not my research:

Thanks to the folks over at the Silver Circle movie for the heads-up, and all the stats.

[FirstAscent]

I think the point is, nobody should take you seriously if you can't respect your own research enough to do it thoroughly. I believe the burden falls upon you to demonstrate the completeness of your statistics.

Not my research:

Thanks to the folks over at the Silver Circle movie for the heads-up, and all the stats.

That's a joke. And that's precisely why you should do some research yourself. Thus far, your actions only speak for the sloppiness and bias of your position.

[myrkul]

That's a joke. And that's precisely why you should do some research yourself. Thus far, your actions only speak for the sloppiness and bias of your position.

Be that as it may, I still haven't seen anyone comment on the video.

[FirstAscent]

That's a joke. And that's precisely why you should do some research yourself. Thus far, your actions only speak for the sloppiness and bias of your position.

Be that as it may, I still haven't seen anyone comment on the video.

I haven't seen any video. However, regarding the data, I really don't see the point why you would put forth data at all unless you're going to be thorough.

[FirstAscent]

Myrkul,

Here are some shootings for you: www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/pdf/major-shootings.pdf

Why don't you get to tallying, graphing, calculating, and hypothesizing?