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Author Topic: PLEASE HELP: Campaign to get a bitcoin "niche ETF"  (Read 5182 times)
dacoinminster
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July 03, 2012, 12:36:55 AM
 #1

There are niche ETFs for almost everything now. You can invest in specific industries and sub-industries by way of ETFs, along with numerous currencies and commodities.

Why not push these ETF companies to create a bitcoin ETF? There's no technical reason they can't do it, and I know that I for one could invest a lot more money in bitcoin if I could use my Fidelity 401k (which lets me invest in ETFs).

So, I compiled a list of companies that might release a niche ETF for bitcoin, and the best way to contact them:

_______Name_______
_______Website_______
__________Email__________
Market Vectors:
Van Eck info@vaneck.com
Global X:
GlobalX Funds info@globalxfunds.com
PowerShares:
Invesco PowerShares info@powershares.com
iShares, Barclays:
US Ishares isharesetfs@blackrock.com
Guggenheim:
Guggenheim Funds etfinfo@guggenheimfunds.com
First Trust:
FT Portfolios feedback@ftportfolios.com
Index IQ:
Index IQ Innovate@IndexIQ.com
Wisdom Tree:
Wisdom Tree web form
iPath:
iPath ETN ipathetn@blackrock.com
Currency Shares:
Currency Shares web form
Factor Shares:
Factor Shares info@factoradvisors.com
Proshares:
Proshares info@proshares.com
ETF Securities:
ETF Securities infony@etfsecurities.com

You can help; please take a moment to contact the companies above and let them know you would be interested in investing in a bitcoin ETF. If you get an interesting response from them by phone or by email, post it here! Also, post any other ETF companies that should be added to this list.

If one of them actually does it, the ease of investing in bitcoins will go WAY down, and the amount of money coming in to the bitcoin economy will go WAY up Smiley

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dunand
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July 03, 2012, 04:21:04 AM
 #2

I would invest in it.
kangasbros
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July 03, 2012, 07:54:41 AM
 #3

Really cool idea Smiley I'm sceptical that any of the companies will do it, but it would be awesome...

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July 03, 2012, 09:29:36 AM
 #4

i have looked briefly into what is required to run a bitcoin etf. this would need a significant amount of funding since you need at least 2 companies , management and public traded etf. since the actual operation of the etf could be very very cheap(automated) unlike SLV, SPY etc.. this could operate with minimum fees.
if someone figures out how to start it up this will certainly boost the bitcoin price.
i can imagine even some conservative technology funds will allocate small % to bitcoin if they are easily accessible via ETF. compared to the current market capitalisation this could be huge.
dacoinminster
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July 03, 2012, 02:19:07 PM
 #5

Here is what I sent to all the email addresses above:

Quote
Hi,

I heard a rumor that your company might be starting a bitcoin ETF, and I am REALLY excited to invest in it. All of my investor friends have been waiting for someone to create an ETF for investing in distributed currencies, since investing in them directly is very difficult.

Please tell me:

Is it true? Will there be a bitcoin ETF? If so, when will it launch? When can we get our hands on the details?

Thanks!

jojkaart
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July 03, 2012, 02:32:12 PM
 #6

Could the initial investment required be gotten through some sort of crowdfunding system? like kickstarter?
dacoinminster
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July 03, 2012, 02:36:34 PM
 #7

Got this from WisdomTree:
Quote
We received your e-mail inquiry in regard to additional WisdomTree ETF's. We have filed for various new funds which are currently in a quiet period.  Therefore we are unable to release any details of those funds at this time.

If you have any further questions regarding WisdomTree, please feel free to email or call 1-866-909-9473 and we will be happy to assist you.

Sincerely,

Anthony

My reply:
Quote
Hey Anthony,

If a bitcoin ETF is NOT among those funds, please pass on our extreme interest in such an ETF to the appropriate people.

Thanks!

From Global X:
Quote
Hi, I’m not sure where you heard anything about a bitcoin ETF, but at the moment I can tell you we have nothing in our pipeline in that area.  Most ETFs have to invest the majority of their assets in actual securities – stocks or bonds – and may be able to gain exposure to currencies through different instruments.  Unless there are specific publicly traded companies that are involved in this space, I’m not sure if an ETF would even be possible to construct at the moment.  If you have any additional questions please let me know, thanks.
-Alex

Quote
Hey Alex,

Thanks for the info. Please pass on word to the appropriate people of our extreme interest in such an ETF.

Thanks!

From Proshares:
Quote
Thank you for your interest in ProShares. We appreciate the opportunity to answer your questions and look forward to the opportunity to work together.

ProShares currently does not have a geared Exchange Traded Fund (“ETF”) that tracks the bitcoin market. We greatly appreciate your feedback and will share your interest with our product development team.

If you would like to sign up to receive e-mail updates whenever new ProShares products are announced, please click here or on the “Get Email Updates” link on the ProShares homepage at proshares.com.

If you would like to further discuss our products, please call us at 866-776-5125 and one of our Registered Representatives will be happy to assist you.

Sincerely,

Paul

From iPath:
Quote
Thanks for your inquiry.  Currently, there is nothing we can provide as to a Bitcoin ETN being created.  We have no products that track the Bitcoins.

Thanks,

iPath Team

Quote
Sorry to hear that. Please pass on to the appropriate people how extremely interested we are in investing in such an ETF!

Thanks!

From PowerShares:
Quote
We do not have any plans to launch a bitcoin ETF. Please feel free to call in if you would like to discuss any of our other ETF products.

800.983.0903

Regards,

Jay

Quote
Sorry to hear that.

Please pass on to the appropriate people that we are dying to invest in such an ETF!

cryptoanarchist
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July 03, 2012, 02:39:01 PM
 #8

I would give those companies creating a bitcoin etf about the same chance as a snowball's in hell.
kangasbros
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July 03, 2012, 02:53:31 PM
 #9

It is a regulatory headache and so on, they won't do it before they see some serious money.

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July 03, 2012, 03:19:29 PM
 #10

Such ETF would be immediately in violation of the rules for the stock exchange trading and therefore a waste of sponsor's funds used to form it.

You could create a corporation that aims to maintain the parity of its stock with the exchange value of bitcoin. And such corporation could trade on pink sheets bulletin board system.

The main problem seems to be Gavin Andresen who continues to sign the checkpoints the bitcoin code:

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blame/master/src/checkpoints.cpp

In effect he acts as a chief tresurer of Bitcoin yet he never signed off on an audit. He even closed his own private Bitcoin company before it could accrue enough liability to go under the generally accepted accounting principles.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
jojkaart
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July 03, 2012, 05:14:30 PM
 #11

Such ETF would be immediately in violation of the rules for the stock exchange trading and therefore a waste of sponsor's funds used to form it.

You could create a corporation that aims to maintain the parity of its stock with the exchange value of bitcoin. And such corporation could trade on pink sheets bulletin board system.

The main problem seems to be Gavin Andresen who continues to sign the checkpoints the bitcoin code:

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blame/master/src/checkpoints.cpp

In effect he acts as a chief tresurer of Bitcoin yet he never signed off on an audit. He even closed his own private Bitcoin company before it could accrue enough liability to go under the generally accepted accounting principles.

Labeling him as a chief treasurer for signing the checkpoints strikes me as seriously odd. He's nothing more than a rubber stamp for the blockchain here. He can't really put anything in there that isn't accepted by the majority of users. If he did, it'd be immediately obvious and he'd lose the trust of the community.

EDIT: Also, all the accounting happens in public, so it's auditable by anyone wishing to do so.
2112
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July 03, 2012, 06:42:58 PM
 #12

Labeling him as a chief treasurer for signing the checkpoints strikes me as seriously odd. He's nothing more than a rubber stamp for the blockchain here.

EDIT: Also, all the accounting happens in public, so it's auditable by anyone wishing to do so.

Two non-sequiturs in one post? I'm not sure if you are naturally myopic or willfully myopic.

1) Recall the BIP wars from around April. If you call that rubber stamp then I'll call it rubber-stamp bazooka.

2) Blockchain works as a ledger only if the address ownership is published. I recall only one case where Mt.Gox published one of their addresses after the hack to prove the control of funds. Nothing like that happened ever since despite the added RPC call functionality that was designed for just that purpose.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
byronbb
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July 03, 2012, 10:37:42 PM
 #13

I thought of this. You could basically start a company whose total assets were bitcoin. You keep the coins on paper in a vault and then sell shares. There is a gold silver company that does this out of Alberta whose assets are 90% bullion. http://www.centralfund.com/

jojkaart
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July 03, 2012, 11:23:30 PM
 #14

Labeling him as a chief treasurer for signing the checkpoints strikes me as seriously odd. He's nothing more than a rubber stamp for the blockchain here.

EDIT: Also, all the accounting happens in public, so it's auditable by anyone wishing to do so.

Two non-sequiturs in one post? I'm not sure if you are naturally myopic or willfully myopic.

1) Recall the BIP wars from around April. If you call that rubber stamp then I'll call it rubber-stamp bazooka.

2) Blockchain works as a ledger only if the address ownership is published. I recall only one case where Mt.Gox published one of their addresses after the hack to prove the control of funds. Nothing like that happened ever since despite the added RPC call functionality that was designed for just that purpose.

1) BIP Wars? There was a lot of noise, I can agree with that. But that's all it was. Blown completely out of proportion. The whole thing is comparable to first deciding to paint the bikeshed and then having a long and noisy argument about which color to paint it. Only, in this case the whole community needed to agree on the color for the painting to happen at all so it became quite a messy affair after another color was proposed. Almost everyone agreed that the new functionality should be added. The argument was about semantics of exactly how to accomplish it.

The checkpoints are very different. Choosing a checkpoint that isn't already a part of the current longest chain is something that will fork the chain. Even then, the fork will only happen if a significant portion of the mining power also chooses to adopt the checkpoint. The users have the choice of which fork to use. Gavin can prepare the fork but it'll only matter if enough users decide to use it. This is why I call him a rubber stamp here.

2) Everyone can verify that the network rules have been followed, the accounts are public afterall, even if not easily linkable to their owners. I take it you are saying that's not enough to qualify as an audit?

To sum up. Gavin is nothing even close to chief treasurer of Bitcoin. Such a person does not exist. That's what's so revolutionary about Bitcoin. It's a distributed consensus system. For something to happen in this system, a consensus is needed.

I don't expect this to remove the problem of not fitting in with the stock exchange rules though. I'd be really surprised if those are applicable at all to a system without someone responsible for accounting. So, in that respect, I do understand why you'd want someone to be the chief treasurer.

(I should probably disclose that I have no knowledge of the rules the stock exchanges use. So, unless you or someone else fill me in, I'll be completely clueless about them.)
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July 03, 2012, 11:35:03 PM
 #15

I'm inserting a full quote just to assure against further edits from jojkaart.
1) BIP Wars? There was a lot of noise, I can agree with that. But that's all it was. Blown completely out of proportion. The whole thing is comparable to first deciding to paint the bikeshed and then having a long and noisy argument about which color to paint it. Only, in this case the whole community needed to agree on the color for the painting to happen at all so it became quite a messy affair after another color was proposed. Almost everyone agreed that the new functionality should be added. The argument was about semantics of exactly how to accomplish it.

The checkpoints are very different. Choosing a checkpoint that isn't already a part of the current longest chain is something that will fork the chain. Even then, the fork will only happen if a significant portion of the mining power also chooses to adopt the checkpoint. The users have the choice of which fork to use. Gavin can prepare the fork but it'll only matter if enough users decide to use it. This is why I call him a rubber stamp here.

2) Everyone can verify that the network rules have been followed, the accounts are public afterall, even if not easily linkable to their owners. I take it you are saying that's not enough to qualify as an audit?

To sum up. Gavin is nothing even close to chief treasurer of Bitcoin. Such a person does not exist. That's what's so revolutionary about Bitcoin. It's a distributed consensus system. For something to happen in this system, a consensus is needed.

I don't expect this to remove the problem of not fitting in with the stock exchange rules though. I'd be really surprised if those are applicable at all to a system without someone responsible for accounting. So, in that respect, I do understand why you'd want someone to be the chief treasurer.

(I should probably disclose that I have no knowledge of the rules the stock exchanges use. So, unless you or someone else fill me in, I'll be completely clueless about them.)

OK, willful myopia. That reference to bike-shedding from FreeBSD settled it. Thanks.

This problem of what is Bitcoin vs. what is Satoshi Bitcoin client maintained by Gavin and friends) was discussed several times, both here and elsewhere. The good jumping poing for people interested in understanding is probably the following thread and post:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=45104.msg538561#msg538561

Edit: Actually I just realized that jojkaart is probably a software developer (from the rather obscure FreeBSD reference). Therefore he will probably be also capable of understanding the idea of BIP 2112 (from my signature) where I talk about cryptographically signed digital prospectuses.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
jojkaart
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July 04, 2012, 01:21:46 PM
 #16

I'm inserting a full quote just to assure against further edits from jojkaart.

I have zero interest in editing that message. Although I do wonder why you'd announce it like this. Feels very hostile. Are you trying to scare me into not replying to you anymore?

OK, willful myopia. That reference to bike-shedding from FreeBSD settled it. Thanks.

This problem of what is Bitcoin vs. what is Satoshi Bitcoin client maintained by Gavin and friends) was discussed several times, both here and elsewhere. The good jumping poing for people interested in understanding is probably the following thread and post:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=45104.msg538561#msg538561

Edit: Actually I just realized that jojkaart is probably a software developer (from the rather obscure FreeBSD reference). Therefore he will probably be also capable of understanding the idea of BIP 2112 (from my signature) where I talk about cryptographically signed digital prospectuses.

Your arrogance really has me wonder if you're actually more interested in demeaning those with differing viewpoints than in discussion. You didn't actually reply to any of my points in any way.

To comment a little on the post you linked to. The courts will most likely try something someday. I believe they'll be about as succesful as they have been in blocking the pirate bay. That is, their decision only really matters to those who want it to matter to them. It will be interesting to see how the first such a case will go. Because, in the end, the decision is in the hands of the users.

It will either end with total failure for the courts or we'll see the bitcoin network fork into two different networks. I find the latter option rather unlikely. A version of Bitcoin that's controlled by the court of some country would have very little appeal to anyone who cares at all about financial freedom.
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July 04, 2012, 01:25:21 PM
 #17

Here is what I sent to all the email addresses above:

Quote
Hi,

I heard a rumor that your company might be starting a bitcoin ETF, and I am REALLY excited to invest in it. All of my investor friends have been waiting for someone to create an ETF for investing in distributed currencies, since investing in them directly is very difficult.

Please tell me:

Is it true? Will there be a bitcoin ETF? If so, when will it launch? When can we get our hands on the details?

Thanks!

You "heard" a rumor? Or you attempted to "start" a rumor?  Wink
dacoinminster
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July 05, 2012, 04:47:49 PM
 #18

You "heard" a rumor? Or you attempted to "start" a rumor?  Wink

Definitely the latter!

From ishares:
Quote
With regards to your request, until our funds are available to trade we are unable to provide details or comment on them.

From ETF Securities:
Quote
Thank you for your email.

Unfortunately ETF Securities never comments on any of our future listing plans.  Please check back with our website from time to time to see any new product launches.

Many thanks and best regards,

Tim

From Guggenheim:

Quote
Our policy is to not discuss product development plans until the proper filings are made.

Thank you for your interest in Guggenheim Investments and for visiting us at www.rydex-sgi.com. If you have further questions, please do not hesitate to call us at 800-820-0888.

Please, bitcoin forum. Help me flood these companies with requests. If they see enough interest, someone with authority to make decisions will at least have to start thinking about bitcoin!

BrightAnarchist
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July 05, 2012, 05:36:37 PM
 #19

I would definitely buy this ETF
dacoinminster
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July 06, 2012, 03:22:51 PM
 #20

From GlobalX:
Quote
Thank you for your interest in the Global X Funds.
 
At this time, we do not have plans to launch a Bitcoin ETF.
 
If you have any further questions, please feel free to reply to this e-mail or call us at 1-888-493-8631 to speak with a representative Monday - Friday, 8:30 AM to 6:30 PM EST.  Also, we encourage you to visit our web site at www.globalxfunds.com

Again, thank you for your interest in the Global X Funds.

Brian

Seriously, am I the only one willing to send a few emails to these companies to rouse their interest? What are internet forums for if not to organize harassment on people and companies?

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