Bitcoin Jesus ministry not to preach from American soil

[Possum577]

THere's no evidence that bitcoin has ANYTHING to do with it, in fact, why would it? The government has more important things to concern itself with.

The fact is, this guy renounced his citizenship, fine, and then he wants to get back into the country?? And he expects the US to say, "sure, come back in!"...this guy is a fool if he's surprised by this.

Here's an analogy...someone comes to your house and says "Fuck you, I hate this place, I don't ever want to be associated with it!" Would you want them back in your house again?

I agree with his t-shirt, but there's nothing we can do about that.

[1714776751]

1714776751

[QuestionAuthority]

THere's no evidence that bitcoin has ANYTHING to do with it, in fact, why would it? The government has more important things to concern itself with.

The fact is, this guy renounced his citizenship, fine, and then he wants to get back into the country?? And he expects the US to say, "sure, come back in!"...this guy is a fool if he's surprised by this.

Here's an analogy...someone comes to your house and says "Fuck you, I hate this place, I don't ever want to be associated with it!" Would you want them back in your house again?

I agree with his t-shirt, but there's nothing we can do about that.

Now that's an interesting viewpoint. It's ok for the government to behave the same way a disappointed child would.

[HELP.org]

the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I think they are a comedy troupe now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg7YhXuyw5g

[siameze]

the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I think they are a comedy troupe now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg7YhXuyw5g

What exactly is wrong with the free state project? I'm actually curious, because I don't know you personally but someone I respect highly evidently trusts you so I'd like to hear it.

[HELP.org]

the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I think they are a comedy troupe now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg7YhXuyw5g

What exactly is wrong with the free state project? I'm actually curious, because I don't know you personally but someone I respect highly evidently trusts you so I'd like to hear it.

I had heard of them before and I thought it was good thing at first.  The first time I actually heard their show was the coverage of the first big Bitcoin Foundation conference.  I told my Dad about it and he was over when the conference was starting.  They started running commercials claiming all government workers were "murders."  Totally off-the-wall stuff.  Since then I have been watching the members of this organization talk about Bitcoin and there was quite a bit of exaggeration and misrepresentation.  It is not just one or two instances, it is a pattern.  What they are doing is using Bitcoin to promote their agenda and they attach the success of their agenda to the success of Bitcoin, hence the misinformation and exaggeration.

these exaggerations include claims that the Bitcoin economy is huge and increasing exponentially.  Another claim is that it is impossible to change the 21 million limit yet they claim it is easy to fix bugs and change the number of decimal digits.  Ver says the OpenBazaar is based on "blockchain technology."   Then there are the claims that Bitcoin will end war or somehow change the way the entire world works.  The vast number of potential Bitcoin users are never going to agree with this stuff. 

I agree that there is an erosion of liberties, government is too big, financially irresponsible, and all that but the Free State people are so far out they offer no benefit to Bitcoin.  it is true that some of those people blazed the trail for Bitcoin in its early days but now they are a detriment by using Bitcoin to promote an agenda.  You may notice that successful Bitcoin businesses are not promoting Bitcoin as a tool to end war, collapse governments, or replace the US dollar.

[QuestionAuthority]

Free State Project people are kind of nutters but so are libertarians. The good news is there are less than 20,000 of them.

[siameze]

the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I think they are a comedy troupe now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg7YhXuyw5g

What exactly is wrong with the free state project? I'm actually curious, because I don't know you personally but someone I respect highly evidently trusts you so I'd like to hear it.

I had heard of them before and I thought it was good thing at first.  The first time I actually heard their show was the coverage of the first big Bitcoin Foundation conference.  I told my Dad about it and he was over when the conference was starting.  They started running commercials claiming all government workers were "murders."  Totally off-the-wall stuff.  Since then I have been watching the members of this organization talk about Bitcoin and there was quite a bit of exaggeration and misrepresentation.  It is not just one or two instances, it is a pattern.  What they are doing is using Bitcoin to promote their agenda and they attach the success of their agenda to the success of Bitcoin, hence the misinformation and exaggeration.

these exaggerations include claims that the Bitcoin economy is huge and increasing exponentially.  Another claim is that it is impossible to change the 21 million limit yet they claim it is easy to fix bugs and change the number of decimal digits.  Ver says the OpenBazaar is based on "blockchain technology."   Then there are the claims that Bitcoin will end war or somehow change the way the entire world works.  The vast number of potential Bitcoin users are never going to agree with this stuff. 

I agree that there is an erosion of liberties, government is too big, financially irresponsible, and all that but the Free State people are so far out they offer no benefit to Bitcoin.  it is true that some of those people blazed the trail for Bitcoin in its early days but now they are a detriment by using Bitcoin to promote an agenda.  You may notice that successful Bitcoin businesses are not promoting Bitcoin as a tool to end war, collapse governments, or replace the US dollar.

Thank you for your reply. War isn't going to end anytime soon, no matter what financial tools are at our disposal. I don't see the "replacement of the US dollar" thing. Bitcoin is designed to do just that. The dollar does it's job, and bitcoin does what it is meant to do. Or am I misinterpreting your words?

[leopard2]

He's a fucking idiot.

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/cybercrime/press-releases/2002/verPlea.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4SCAw264qM

No. He was an honest trader and the government scum set him up. Read before you blab, that link was in the OP article.

http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/11/12/bitcoin-venture-capitalist-roger-vers-journey-to-anarchism/

 In the meeting, my attorney told the prosecutor that selling store bought firecrackers on Ebay isn’t a big deal and that we can pay a fine and do some community service to be done with everything. When the prosecutor agreed that that sounded reasonable one of the ATF agents pounded his hand on the table and shouted “…but you didn’t hear the things that he said!” This summed up very clearly that they were angry about the things that I had said, not the things that I had done.

Something is badly wrong with justice anyways, when selling fireworks is considered illegal even though they were properly paid for (and not stolen). A proper sales contract between two private individuals, how can that be illegal?!?!?!

[HELP.org]

the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I think they are a comedy troupe now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg7YhXuyw5g

What exactly is wrong with the free state project? I'm actually curious, because I don't know you personally but someone I respect highly evidently trusts you so I'd like to hear it.

I had heard of them before and I thought it was good thing at first.  The first time I actually heard their show was the coverage of the first big Bitcoin Foundation conference.  I told my Dad about it and he was over when the conference was starting.  They started running commercials claiming all government workers were "murders."  Totally off-the-wall stuff.  Since then I have been watching the members of this organization talk about Bitcoin and there was quite a bit of exaggeration and misrepresentation.  It is not just one or two instances, it is a pattern.  What they are doing is using Bitcoin to promote their agenda and they attach the success of their agenda to the success of Bitcoin, hence the misinformation and exaggeration.

these exaggerations include claims that the Bitcoin economy is huge and increasing exponentially.  Another claim is that it is impossible to change the 21 million limit yet they claim it is easy to fix bugs and change the number of decimal digits.  Ver says the OpenBazaar is based on "blockchain technology."   Then there are the claims that Bitcoin will end war or somehow change the way the entire world works.  The vast number of potential Bitcoin users are never going to agree with this stuff. 

I agree that there is an erosion of liberties, government is too big, financially irresponsible, and all that but the Free State people are so far out they offer no benefit to Bitcoin.  it is true that some of those people blazed the trail for Bitcoin in its early days but now they are a detriment by using Bitcoin to promote an agenda.  You may notice that successful Bitcoin businesses are not promoting Bitcoin as a tool to end war, collapse governments, or replace the US dollar.

Thank you for your reply. War isn't going to end anytime soon, no matter what financial tools are at our disposal. I don't see the "replacement of the US dollar" thing. Bitcoin is designed to do just that. The dollar does it's job, and bitcoin does what it is meant to do. Or am I misinterpreting your words?

I think Bitcoin will one of many financial instruments and currencies.  I thinks banks will use it for money transfers, people will use it for remittance, unbanked will use it (it will not solve the problem of unbanked but it will be one more tool to help) and things like that.  However, there are several use cases where Bitcoin is not the ideal financial instrument and the whole world is not going to switch over to Bitcoin.  Decentralization is expensive and slow and many things are better done in a centralized manner and there is a real issue with transaction fees as the block rewards are reduced.  I do not believe the Erik Vorhees theory that the world's currencies are all going to collapse and the world is going to flock to Bitcoin like a "lifeboat."  If you listen to Gavin and Mike Hearn when they discuss these issues they generally put things in a proper perspective.  

[siameze]

Something is badly wrong with justice anyways, when selling fireworks is considered illegal even though they were properly paid for (and not stolen). A proper sales contract between two private individuals, how can that be illegal?!?!?!

Well that is the way it *should* be. Even the US dollar says "Legal tender for all debts, public and private" But it really doesn't work that way, sadly.

[HELP.org]

He's a fucking idiot.

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/cybercrime/press-releases/2002/verPlea.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4SCAw264qM

No. He was an honest trader and the government scum set him up. Read before you blab, that link was in the OP article.

http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/11/12/bitcoin-venture-capitalist-roger-vers-journey-to-anarchism/

 In the meeting, my attorney told the prosecutor that selling store bought firecrackers on Ebay isn’t a big deal and that we can pay a fine and do some community service to be done with everything. When the prosecutor agreed that that sounded reasonable one of the ATF agents pounded his hand on the table and shouted “…but you didn’t hear the things that he said!” This summed up very clearly that they were angry about the things that I had said, not the things that I had done.

Something is badly wrong with justice anyways, when selling fireworks is considered illegal even though they were properly paid for (and not stolen). A proper sales contract between two private individuals, how can that be illegal?!?!?!

When you are up for a crime it is normal to consider both what is said and what is done.  It is also normal to consider some types of transactions illegal for a variety of reasons.  In this case it was accidents caused by people improperly handling or using the explosives.  Back when people lived in caves these restrictions did not exist.

[leopard2]

Something is badly wrong with justice anyways, when selling fireworks is considered illegal even though they were properly paid for (and not stolen). A proper sales contract between two private individuals, how can that be illegal?!?!?!

Well that is the way it *should* be. Even the US dollar says "Legal tender for all debts, public and private" But it really doesn't work that way, sadly.

100% agreed. Now, if Ebay bans such sales on their website, that is perfectly within their right and the only sentence he therefore deserved, was losing his Ebay account.

Instead he got 10 months in jail for properly executing contracts with other individuals on a voluntary basis. This obviously was the reason he renounced his citizenship. I had no idea who Roger Ver is but like him now 

[QuestionAuthority]

Something is badly wrong with justice anyways, when selling fireworks is considered illegal even though they were properly paid for (and not stolen). A proper sales contract between two private individuals, how can that be illegal?!?!?!

Well that is the way it *should* be. Even the US dollar says "Legal tender for all debts, public and private" But it really doesn't work that way, sadly.

100% agreed. Now, if Ebay bans such sales on their website, that is perfectly within their right and the only sentence he therefore deserved, was losing his Ebay account.

Instead he got 10 months in jail for properly executing contracts with other individuals on a voluntary basis. This obviously was the reason he renounced his citizenship. I had no idea who Roger Ver is but like him now 

A lot of the early Bitcoin community likes him. He was one of the reasons Bitcoin took off. He donated his money and time to the cause when everyone else in the world thought Bitcoiners were a collection of radical idiots. He owned one of the first brick and mortar businesses to accept Bitcoin, put up a billboard on a San Jose freeway supporting Bitcoin, preached the cause all over the world and championed it with all his might. Agree with him or not, hate him or not, we're probably all still here in no small part because of him.

[siameze]

Back when people lived in caves these restrictions did not exist.

Seriously?

[jbreher]

Since Whitehurst was and FBI agent people like Ver and the Free State Project call him a "murderer" too.  Don't you see how ridiculous those people are and how stupid they make Bitcoin look?

No, I fail to see how that makes Bitcoin look stupid. Does that make all males look stupid? All former US citizens?

[jbreher]

Of course, that is why I am involved.  Just because I am dissatisfied with parts of the system does not mean the solution is some kind of ridiculous fantasy anarcho-whatever system that would have everyone living in caves.

If we didn't have "authority" to force us to do better, we'd be living in caves? Really?

Life would be very different, yes. Personally, I think it would be an improvement. I can understand how others may feel different, but I am convinced that the mental image you portray about the state we would be in without dictatorial overlords is way off the mark.

[tvbcof]

A lot of the early Bitcoin community likes him [Ver]. He was one of the reasons Bitcoin took off. He donated his money and time to the cause when everyone else in the world thought Bitcoiners were a collection of radical idiots. He owned one of the first brick and mortar businesses to accept Bitcoin, put up a billboard on a San Jose freeway supporting Bitcoin, preached the cause all over the world and championed it with all his might. Agree with him or not, hate him or not, we're probably all still here in no small part because of him.

+1.  It's easy to forget this, and I've forgotten it from time to time.

[QuestionAuthority]

A lot of the early Bitcoin community likes him [Ver]. He was one of the reasons Bitcoin took off. He donated his money and time to the cause when everyone else in the world thought Bitcoiners were a collection of radical idiots. He owned one of the first brick and mortar businesses to accept Bitcoin, put up a billboard on a San Jose freeway supporting Bitcoin, preached the cause all over the world and championed it with all his might. Agree with him or not, hate him or not, we're probably all still here in no small part because of him.

+1.  It's easy to forget this, and I've forgotten it from time to time.

Roger and I have not seen eye to eye on every issue. We've sent angry PMs to each other over a personal difference of opinion. I still have the PMs. I'm not, however, going to disregard his contribution because we don't always agree. Too many people in this community are willing to throw a brother away when they're down. It just ain't right.

[Kluge]

The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

If you recall that sort of behaviour helped spark the revolution that the USofA started from. Has it come full circle?

Well, the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I remember seeing the Free State Project ads on CoinVisitor. Didn't know that was still in operation.

They're still around. https://freestateproject.org

FSP's significantly older than BTC, fwiw. I had the pleasure of meeting Ian at a BTC conference in FL a few months ago. Signed a pledge of intent, but then my job hunt ended abruptly soon after (thank God). Was kind of surprised they came to a fairly low-key crypto conference... I've been hearing about Ian and the FSP for more than my entire adult life, so really putting a face to it was kind of..... .... disturbing.

[QuestionAuthority]

The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

If you recall that sort of behaviour helped spark the revolution that the USofA started from. Has it come full circle?

Well, the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I remember seeing the Free State Project ads on CoinVisitor. Didn't know that was still in operation.

They're still around. https://freestateproject.org

FSP's significantly older than BTC, fwiw. I had the pleasure of meeting Ian at a BTC conference in FL a few months ago. Signed a pledge of intent, but then my job hunt ended abruptly soon after (thank God). Was kind of surprised they came to a fairly low-key crypto conference... I've been hearing about Ian and the FSP for more than my entire adult life, so really putting a face to it was kind of..... .... disturbing.

If it's disturbing to you and you agree with the ideology then what must the rest of the country think? LOL
Freeman has the right idea but he's too fringe/radical in his presentations to get major support. One of my favorite quotes from him is, "I don't believe in the state. Unfortunately a lot of people do believe in the state and they are willing to kill for it. It is a very very dangerous religion." I completely agree with that statement even though it alienates about 90% of the people in the country. He needs to back off of the militia speak and start preaching the little things that everyone hates about the direction this country has taken. I haven't met anyone yet that doesn't agree in principle with something he believes about the country. Presentation is everything though and he scares the little fluffy bunny citizens too much to garner big support. That's the reason they still don't have the necessary 20,000 people to trigger the move after all these years.