Ελλάς (Greece)

[imanikin]

I see a few more in the *.gr realm lately, but still doesn't even show up in Google Trends data for Greece. Perhaps, Greeks mostly use some other search engine?

Nope. We use almost exclusively Google like the rest of the world but there are fewer than 5mil internet users from Greece AFAIK so Google trends usually ain't that clear for us.

Thanks for checking that out!

Spain also doesn't show on that radar. I am starting to think there is some malfunction in the Google Trends engine; the entire population of Finland is about 5 million. Yet, they are constantly in the top 5 of Google Trends for Bitcoin... 

[Tritonio]

Spain also doesn't show on that radar. I am starting to think there is some malfunction in the Google Trends engine; the entire population of Finland is about 5 million. Yet, they are constantly in the top 5 of Google Trends for Bitcoin... 

Have you tried other terms? Try "sex" or "porn" and see how it goes. ;-)

[Serenata]

Would any of the natives please gives us their thoughts on this article:
Bitcoin:monetary revolution of the digital generation

It's a quite good presentation of Bitcoin for the layman. It has some mistakes and misses a few aspects (it would be way more interesting if it presented Bitcoin along with some libertarian principles instead of just mentioning how today's governments are corrupt) but overall it's nice.

Quite a negative article I'd say. If you account his replies too, I don't think he even likes an idea of an open system, not based on well established ideas and/or government :-(

[imanikin]

Have you tried other terms? Try "sex" or "porn" and see how it goes. ;-)

Yes, that's a good idea; if i put Athens or feta or euro or Volos (TEM), Greece starts to appear on Google Trends. However, if i put money or Drachma or barter or their greek equivalents, Greece disappears again. 

[imanikin]

Quite a negative article I'd say. If you account his replies too, I don't think he even likes an idea of an open system, not based on well established ideas and/or government :-(

This one definitely sounds more negative to me, at least from the translation.

[Tritonio]

Quite a negative article I'd say. If you account his replies too, I don't think he even likes an idea of an open system, not based on well established ideas and/or government :-(

This one definitely sounds more negative to me, at least from the translation.

What a terrible article.

The last one though wasn't that negative Serenata. I'd call it neutral perhaps. He doesn't state a negative opinion. He more like states his worries and that time will show if it's worth it or not. And compared to the average Greek reaction on the net I'd say it's quite positive.

BTW Liberalism is almost unheard of in Greece. There are practically zero anarcho-capitalists for example while we've got a huge share of anarchists. So most positive opinions about Bitcoin here are based on the ability to escape austerity measures and live outside the current corrupt state.

Also during the last elections voters were turned from the two "center" parties to the "left" and to the "right". But while "left" includes socialist parties, the right includes fascists and no libertarians at all. In the political compass (www.politicalcompass.org), Greece moved like this:

From here: http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-5&soc=0

To BOTH here: http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-7&soc=6
and here: http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=0&soc=9 (although those were much fewer thankfully)

(those are personal estimates of course)

[imanikin]

...
BTW Liberalism is almost unheard of in Greece. There are practically zero anarcho-capitalists for example while we've got a huge share of anarchists. So most positive opinions about Bitcoin here are based on the ability to escape austerity measures and live outside the current corrupt state.

Also during the last elections voters were turned from the two "center" parties to the "left" and to the "right". But while "left" includes socialist parties, the right includes fascists and no libertarians at all. In the political compass (www.politicalcompass.org), Greece moved like this:

From here: http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-5&soc=0

To BOTH here: http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-7&soc=6
and here: http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=0&soc=9 (although those were much fewer thankfully)

(those are personal estimates of course)

It seems that those are not anarchist positions; they seem socialist or fascist. I expected that anarchists would be more accepting of Bitcoin, the way the Pirates are.

Considering that corruption is almost impossible to separate from the state, because it has cultural ties and roots in any society, looks like very difficult times are ahead for all but the fascists in Greece. It will be sad and fascinating to watch develop.

As in Spain, barter systems like TEM, appear to be acceptable to the mainstream of Greece, yes?
So, i guess then that the acceptance of Bitcoin is just a matter of time, generational change, and the average comfort with complicated technology.

If Greece leaves Euro, it will be an interesting test of many hypotheses...

[Tritonio]

It seems that those are not anarchist positions; they seem socialist or fascist. I expected that anarchists would be more accepting of Bitcoin, the way the Pirates are.

Which positions do you mean? Also not all pirates here like the idea of bitcoins. I've seen quite a few people that are into the Pirate Party only  because it's the only party they trust that it will allow them to affect how they are governed, while they themselves have socialist beliefs.

Considering that corruption is almost impossible to separate from the state, because it has cultural ties and roots in any society, looks like very difficult times are ahead for all but the fascists in Greece. It will be sad and fascinating to watch develop.

As in Spain, barter systems like TEM, appear to be acceptable to the mainstream of Greece, yes?

To be honest I am not really sure how fast TEM is expanding if at all. Maybe someone else from Greece, Volos (the place where TEM started) might enlighten us. All I can say is that I live in Athens like 1/3 of the population and I haven't heard of a widely used TEM-like system here. I got a small leaflet while getting out of the Metro yesterday though. It was about some system called "κουκιά" (koukia.gr). It's sponsored by some companies but I still haven't checked it out.

So, i guess then that the acceptance of Bitcoin is just a matter of time, generational change, and the average comfort with complicated technology.

If Greece leaves Euro, it will be an interesting test of many hypotheses...

Yes, an exit would be an amazing (but painful for most) test. On the other hand the current situation is painful enough for many and there are times where I think that it would be easier for most people to live off of a black market if we parted from the eurozone. My only concern about the state getting "demolished" in one way or another is that most Greeks are practically unarmed and living in big cities. Even now the police is practically not functioning. It's not hard to imagine the people accepting another junta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E2%80%931974) just to feel safer.

[imanikin]

[Which positions do you mean? Also not all pirates here like the idea of bitcoins. I've seen quite a few people that are into the Pirate Party only  because it's the only party they trust that it will allow them to affect how they are governed, while they themselves have socialist beliefs.

I meant the politcompass charts. Perhaps, there really aren't many anarchists in Greece; they just say they are because they have the luxury to be able to do it, as a protest against state corruption, and are actually socialists.
Perhaps i don't understand correctly, but being unarmed doesn't seem very conducive to being an anarchist... 

As in Spain, barter systems like TEM, appear to be acceptable to the mainstream of Greece, yes?

To be honest I am not really sure how fast TEM is expanding if at all. Maybe someone else from Greece, Volos (the place where TEM started) might enlighten us. All I can say is that I live in Athens like 1/3 of the population and I haven't heard of a widely used TEM-like system here. I got a small leaflet while getting out of the Metro yesterday though. It was about some system called "κουκιά" (koukia.gr). It's sponsored by some companies but I still haven't checked it out.

I wrote to the purveyors of TEM some months ago, asking for a comment here regarding B and their TEM lessons learned... As you know, they didn't respond. Perhaps, if you contact them in Greek, they will respond in Greek, and you can tell us what exactly they said, besides the literal translation...

Yes, an exit would be an amazing (but painful for most) test. On the other hand the current situation is painful enough for many and there are times where I think that it would be easier for most people to live off of a black market if we parted from the eurozone. My only concern about the state getting "demolished" in one way or another is that most Greeks are practically unarmed and living in big cities. Even now the police is practically not functioning. It's not hard to imagine the people accepting another junta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E2%80%931974) just to feel safer.

Yes, some kind of Franco/DeGaulle/Pinochet type government does seem to me the most likely to emerge in the log run, considering there isn't much libertarian sentiment or recent experience.
Before that, might  be what was in Russia in the '90's - a weak, government, with the "safety" being provided by local criminal groups. Seems wise to postpone that kind of a transition as long as possible, to give the populace time to prepare in various ways, which looking from outside seems to be what's happening... 

In such a collaps, it does seem advantageous to have a system like the American or even the Swiss one, where a lot of people besides the criminals and the state agents are armed rather well. Particularly in America, people continue arming, and many states continue to make it easier to own and carry personal weapons. If the local police collapsed, in any neighborhood there are probably a number of "decent" people not only with serious firearms, but recent combat experience... 

[Tritonio]

I wrote to the purveyors of TEM some months ago, asking for a comment here regarding B and their TEM lessons learned... As you know, they didn't respond. Perhaps, if you contact them in Greek, they will respond in Greek, and you can tell us what exactly they said, besides the literal translation...

I shall send them an email tomorrow and see if they answer.

[KonstantinosM]

Eimai ellinas. Metakomisa stin Ameriki prin apo 3ia xronia. I ellada einai mia xwra stin opia 8a eimoun xaroumenos na zisw oli mou tin zwi! Einai krima pou exei katastrafei telios I oikonomia kai oti exoume mia toso adunami kivernisi.

[pazor]

Eimai ellinas. Metakomisa stin Ameriki prin apo 3ia xronia. I ellada einai mia xwra stin opia 8a eimoun xaroumenos na zisw oli mou tin zwi! Einai krima pou exei katastrafei telios I oikonomia kai oti exoume mia toso adunami kivernisi.

gia auto thn ekanes?

[Tritonio]

Eimai ellinas. Metakomisa stin Ameriki prin apo 3ia xronia. I ellada einai mia xwra stin opia 8a eimoun xaroumenos na zisw oli mou tin zwi! Einai krima pou exei katastrafei telios I oikonomia kai oti exoume mia toso adunami kivernisi.

GTRANSLATION FOR ANYONE INTERESTED: I am greek. I moved to America 3 years ago. Greece is a country that I would happily spend my whole life! It's a shame that the economy is completely ruined and that we have such a weak government.

Hi Konstantinos. Greece is nice for holidays mostly. If I could leave right now, I would, but I'll have to stay for a few more years here. As for the weak governement. It's not weak at all, it's just a terrible and serves certain lobbies. Other than that I think we would have more luck rebuilding the economy on our own without a government meddling in everything. Well we could, but the moment our government becomes actually weak (meaning it looses control over the police and the army) I bet quite a few Greeks (maybe almost half of them?) will easily accept a junta again as long as it keeps immigrants out of their neighborhood ad grants them basic healthcare.

[imanikin]

Eimai ellinas. Metakomisa stin Ameriki prin apo 3ia xronia. I ellada einai mia xwra stin opia 8a eimoun xaroumenos na zisw oli mou tin zwi! Einai krima pou exei katastrafei telios I oikonomia kai oti exoume mia toso adunami kivernisi.

GTRANSLATION FOR ANYONE INTERESTED: I am greek. I moved to America 3 years ago. Greece is a country that I would happily spend my whole life! It's a shame that the economy is completely ruined and that we have such a weak government.

Thank you for the translation, Tritonio! 

KonstantinosM, welcome! Would you care to elaborate on how you think the economy was ruined and how you think it could have been run better?

It would also be interesting to hear your view on TEM, and why Bitcoin is not making much progress in Greece, compared to much less financially troubled countries.

Since this is the Greek thread here, it will be great if you answer in greek, as long as you use greek letters, so that non-greek speakers here can use a translator to figure out what you said.

[Tritonio]

BTW the TEM page is down again... 

[imanikin]

BTW the TEM page is down again... 

Perhaps, their TEM account with their web hoster is on zero?  Could it be that their faith in the Euro is renewed, and they dropped the TEM idea?

Hopefully, they did NOT myBitcoin.coN their users and run off with all the IOU's... 

TEM seems like an interesting saga on the inside; wish there was a TEM forum, where it was all discussed, the way the B drama is chronicled here...  

[imanikin]

"Greek Euro Exit Unavoidable if IMF, Euro Zone Can't Agree
...the time of reckoning is here." 

[pazor]

bullshit !
you remove one part, you destroy the big one!

[imanikin]

bullshit !
you remove one part, you destroy the big one!

Agreed, that IF it really happens the EU will break.

The question here is what that will mean to Bitcoin and other digital money in Greece... 

The EU seems to remain stratified financially and economically anyway. So, its breakup might seem beneficial now to its member countries, because it's not working as originally intended anyway...

Not so?

[Tritonio]

Has anyone tried to buy Bitcoins from Greece?

Most Greek bank clerks haven't even heard about SEPA (they are completely useless and unprofessional) and even those that know about it as for 8-15 euros per transaction, so unless I am buying 1000 euros worth of bitcoins it's not really worth it.


Other ways?

I could try with Paypal over OTR or find someone on the forums first (in hopes that he will trust me and consider the PayPal transaction risk free) but Paypal will be my last resort.